Cursed?

Hi all,

I've posted before about my two adult carpets I bought as adults from LLL reptile. Both have eaten a couple times since I've had them, but haven't been interested in food for probably a few months now. Anybody else having the same thing happen? I live in Southern California. Just frustrated. Pretty sure husbandry is spot on. Actually spoke with Nick Mutton about this very topic and he said everything seems fine, but wanted to see if any fellow carpet lovers (haha) experience the same prolonged issues in warmer winter climates.

P.S. I recently bought a couple frozen rats from Petco because theirs usually stink pretty gnarly. I kept the bag in the enclosures while the rats thawed and both snakes seemed put on by the smell, flicked their tongues upon initial offering, but just were not interested beyond that. Leave them in overnight every time. Usually re-freeze once and feed the same again a couple weeks later.

CJ

This time of the year for adults it's not unusual, but since you don't have any history on those animals being from a company that just resell animals it's hard to define what is normal for them as well, hence why buying from a reputable breeder that knows his animals is so important as they can give you pointers.

I can tell you that my carpets unless breeding (females after ovy) NEVER turned down a meal, this is the one species you can usually always count on when it come to food, again not having any background on the animal it can be normal for them or not.

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Originally Posted by Cee Jay

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P.S. I recently bought a couple frozen rats from Petco because theirs usually stink pretty gnarly. I kept the bag in the enclosures while the rats thawed and both snakes seemed put on by the smell, flicked their tongues upon initial offering, but just were not interested beyond that. Leave them in overnight every time. Usually re-freeze once and feed the same again a couple weeks later.

CJ

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No experience with carpet pythons, but lots of experience feeding snakes of all kinds & with f/t mice & rats. After you "leave them in overnight every time" they are SPOILED-and I don't believe that carpet pythons are among the snakes willing to eat carrion (the way king snakes might). So throw them out unless you re-freeze them while they're still fresh (within an hour of offering, I'd say, at the most). Better yet, don't re-freeze or re-offer. :puke2: This might be part of your problem.

It also matters HOW you thaw rats or mice: to reduce spoilage, either thaw IN the refrigerator (depending on how big the rodent is, could easily take a day+) OR thaw in cold water until soft all the way thru-feel by hand, & only then warm it up some (IF needed, depends on what kind of snake you're feeding) in very warm water &/or using a blow-dryer (hair-dryer). Thawing them by sitting out on the counter, or by submerging in warm water for prolonged periods of time, promotes spoilage and your snake CAN smell this, even if you cannot. Trust me. ;)

I raise my own rodents but I've "heard" that Petco doesn't have the best frozen feeders either...just saying. Sometimes they're bad from the start. You might try offering a fresh killed rat or one from another (better) source. Layne Labs is in California, in case you're close to them, they have great reviews, but I'm not sure if they sell locally to the public, or only by shipping? (which does get pricey because they have to ship on ice).

https://www.laynelabs.com/

All of my carpets are eating sporadically right now. I'm not worried at all. They'll pick up again in a few months. I offer food every 3-4 weeks and some will eat and others won't. As long as your husbandry is on point I wouldn't be too concerned.

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Originally Posted by Cee Jay

Hi all,

I've posted before about my two adult carpets I bought as adults from LLL reptile. Both have eaten a couple times since I've had them, but haven't been interested in food for probably a few months now. Anybody else having the same thing happen? I live in Southern California. Just frustrated. Pretty sure husbandry is spot on. Actually spoke with Nick Mutton about this very topic and he said everything seems fine, but wanted to see if any fellow carpet lovers (haha) experience the same prolonged issues in warmer winter climates.

P.S. I recently bought a couple frozen rats from Petco because theirs usually stink pretty gnarly. I kept the bag in the enclosures while the rats thawed and both snakes seemed put on by the smell, flicked their tongues upon initial offering, but just were not interested beyond that. Leave them in overnight every time. Usually re-freeze once and feed the same again a couple weeks later.

CJ

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"Pretty sure husbandry is spot on."


What is your husbandry? Cage size, type, temps, humidity, etc?

How are defrosting and offering the F/T rats?

Overnight its fine, but I doubt the carpets will eat that. They are big on a heat signature.

NEVER RE-FREEZE F/T prey.

I would also be getting Frozen rats from a better source.

Answering these questions can help us see if it's a you issue, or a CP issue.

Keep us posted.

Great information, thank you. I only refreeze them when I take them out right after I realize they are not going to eat. I will leave the refrozen ones out overnight on the second attempt, since I am just trying a different method. I do heat them in hot tap water, which I will try leaving them in cold water in the fridge. Hadn't thought of that, so thank you.

4x2x2 PVC enclosures for both. 12-13hr light cycle...I've been so lazy I need to get a timer, but the LEDs go on at 6am before work and off at 7pm. 89* cooling at night and 93* hot spot each from RHPs. Humidity stays relatively constant at 65% based on numbers I got from StarPythons. The bedding is thick brown paper i have a 1000ft roll of I cut multiple sheets. There is one large shallow bin I keep 3/4 filled with ReptiBark and moist for the humidity and to keep cleaning the cages easy. All the large wood and huge cork pieces are attached to the back panel of the enclosure with monster zip ties so nothing moves, so there are numerous areas and shelves to bask on. Cool side is about high 70s, very low 80s. They both have huge hides in that bark bin, which they go into every night and during the day to sleep when they are not out basking under the RHP. Everything seems perfect, except they will not eat!!! haha. Trying to be patient. I never see them drink water, which worries me, but it is always available. The smaller adult Variegata seems "thinner" but not sickly. Obviously from not eating for a while I imagine that could happen, but she just shed a nice shed and is active. Eyes are super clear and she hates me just as much as she ever did.

A post I made a while back talked about giving them both a treatment for a few days in dawn soap and heated water, which I did, and then a treatment for a week or so with a blue liquid diluted...I can't remember what it's called off the top of my head. That honestly went well. The jungle, who was soaking in his water bowl constantly, has never done that again, and stopped roaming around his cage crazily for no reason like he was trying to escape. I didn't find mites, but am almost convinced there was something on the reptibark like wood mites or some s&*t that was tweaking him out. I now microwave all the Reptibark before using it in there. Had the same issue with my blue-tongue skink, and that has since stopped.

Sorry for the lengthy post, just trying to give some information to anybody else who might chime in. Thanks again.

I usually get my rats from LLL in like bags of 8 - they are most always black and white mixed color, though I have sought all black ones with no luck. I ordered from Rodentpro in the past, and when I went through all those I switched to the LLL 8 pack, which I recently finished. I got the Petco ones out of interest, because even though I know they aren't great, those are some of the only ones they have ever eaten and I remember they stank pretty gnarly. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but I hoped the smell would pique their interest.

Another poster said not to re-offer F/T or heat them/thaw them in hot water, which I will never do again. What sucks is my wife an I are both plant-based eaters who generally stay away from "animal death" type of stuff. That said, she and I are both willing to do whatever it takes to feed these guys, it's just funny that it's leaning toward, "well honey, looks like we may have to breed rats and chop their heads off to make this work!" I'm totally joking here :)

I wish I could send a picture of the enclosures, but I don't think I've posted enough on here yet. Am I mistaken?

Do they have perches? CP's love to perch and strike down at prey.

See below for how to properly defrost a F/T prey item. Follow it to a T and then at the very end, as it states, hit the rat with hot water (from tap) or a hair dryer to warm it up and entice the snake to eat. This is not relevant for Boas, Corns, etc, but it is pythons, with heat pits, really like to see a heat signature.



This is my step by step list on defrosting F/T rodents.

Others may do it differently and that's fine. This how I do it and it works for me.


STEPS FOR DEFROSTING F/T RODENTS/PREY

1. Put prey item(s) into appropriate size plastic bag (1 for each). I use Quart size ziplock bags up to a medium rat. NOTE: Bags are optional. Some people just throw the prey in the water. I like the bags, but you have to squeeze the air out of them.

2. Fill the container/storage box 3/4 of the way with room temp to slightly warm water. If you have a temp gun (which you should, so if you don't, get one), make sure the water is not hotter than 85-90F, or there about.

3. Put F/T prey item(s) in water. Cover (optional) and leave for an hour +/-. Less if smaller prey and longer if bigger prey (however longer does not hurt smaller prey).

4. After an hour, rotate/flip prey. If in plastic bags, they often will stay on whatever side you put them in on. So if mouse is on left side, turn to right side, etc.

5. Leave for another hour +/- for a TOTAL of about 2 hours (up to medium sized rat - longer if bigger prey - Large rats, for example).

6. Check that prey is defrosted totally through. Squeeze at different sections of the preys body. Should be cool/room temp to touch, but be soft with no cold spots. If hard (except for bone), in abdomen, for example, or cold, put back in water until room temp and soft.

7. Take prey out of the container/storage box and put aside. THEN FOLLOW STEPS 8-11 OR STEP 12

8. Fill container with hot water from tap. If using temp gun, water temp should be 110-130F, not more.

9. Drop prey item into water for 30 seconds +/-. If multiple prey items, do one at a time. You want each item hot when you offer.

10. Remove (if hot water, with tongs).

11. Dry as best as you can, and is quickly as you can, with paper towels. I dry with paper towels while I am walking from the bathroom where I defrost to the snake tanks. I kind of wrap the prey item up in them. It's ten feet, so by the time I get to the tanks, the prey is drier, but still warm.

12. If not using hot water, use a hairdryer to heat rat so it entices snake

13. Open tank and offer ASAP on tongs. Wiggle gently to make it appear alive.

Ok, so I just used my heat gun and went to my garage sink that I use to soak the rats in a large plastic tupperware bowl. The temp I have been dropping frozen rats to soak in is reading 118* from the tap. While this obviously is going to cool naturally and with the addition of frozen items, I realize that is not the best practice and thank you for the insight. I will try the cold thaw from now on and order some new rats as I just finished the last of what has come to become a likely treat to the coyotes in the valley backing up to my house.

I was tempted to try and order some different prey items. Anybody have success or experience with quail or anything weird like that? I also thought about Reptilinks from a Garrett Hartle video, but I think at this point my snakes might look at me like I'm crazy, so best to stick to something with fur...

I have tried the blowdryer method, but this was with rats that had been fast-heated in hot water. What's interesting is that the times that they have eaten, and it hasn't been a lot since I've had these guys, they have NEVER struck at any prey item. The Variegata eats off a flat piece of cork bark I use to minimize mess when I've been out of the room, and the Jungle (newer addition), did one of those super slow Kevin McCurley type of eats where it just eats it all tame-like. Such a weird situation. I realize buying snakes and not knowing were they come from may not be the BEST practice, but other than the eating thing, they look very healthy and act normal. I got into this and got the first one out of sympathy to be honest, and the same went with the big jungle. Both had been returned, the Jungle several times, and I knew I could give them nice homes where they wouldn't have to keep switching their habitats. I've spent an unreal amount of money giving these two snakes great habitats and really hope they eat so I feel like I sort of gave them a good chance and life. Sorry if that sounds lame.

BTW, it seems we often have this discussion here, about the best way to thaw rodents. The thing to remember is how much FASTER these whole rats (or any prey) can
spoil because it's the whole animal...remember that the GI tract is intact & full of bacteria...which get very happy & come to life* when they're warmed up. (*freezing
doesn't kill them, just keeps them from growing) So thawing rodents is not like leaving a steak out on the counter to thaw for a human dinner, because first, it's not the
whole animal, but second, we're not going to eat it raw (I'm assuming) & any bacteria gets killed off when it's cooked. My suggestions for thawing snake food actually
parallels what is suggested for thawing whole turkeys, for example, that people eat: that is, thaw either in cold water (& change it a few times as needed) or thaw in the
'fridge (but that takes much longer).

No, you're not cursed...this is just life, re-learning how to live with snakes! :rofl:Hope they get going for you soon. :gj:

Last question...for those in this situation...how often do you offer food? Cost isn't the most important factor, but I also feel bad wasting these guys away, though I am sure they are being consumed. I don't want to over-offer and make these snakes think food is always there, but I sure don't want to neglect them. Thanks again for the input.

Since they're well established adults I wouldn't offer any more often than every 3-4 weeks. I'm brand new to Morelia, but with my other snakes sometimes I just kinda "wait them out". By that I mean I don't offer until they start exhibiting some hunting behavior.
For example, with my adult BPs, when they take a break I won't offer again until I see their heads poking out of their hides on consecutive nights. If I see that two or three nights in a row I will offer. So far I've had no refusals that way.

Again, I'm brand new to Morelia, but experienced with other species and this is what has worked for me personally as well as my animals.

Good luck! Please keep us posted.
And we love pictures, so don't be afraid to share. :)

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...e0aa1dae_m.jpg

So apparently I'm retarded. These are the current setups, only i have added in one really big piece of grapewood to the top enclosure, which the dude can bask right under the RHP. That is his hot spot every day when he comes out. I'm trying to shape the piece I have not so it fits in the bottom enclosure. More photos to follow.

Retarded as in never being able to figure out how to post photos before...

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Originally Posted by Cee Jay

Retarded as in never being able to figure out how to post photos before...

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People ask all the time...don't beat yourself up. (-we can do it for you, & SO much better! :rofl:)

Here are the last photos I have to share tonight. They're from around Christmas time. The one that is my profile pic is pretty old, first one I got and an early enclosure design. Enclosures not have no substrate on bottom, just in the tubs. Enjoy...will post any more I have in the future.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...01035167_m.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ec60eee2_m.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...22e27378_m.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...572a5ba8_m.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...75733143_m.jpg

Last one is the first cage design before putting the variegata in from its first temporary bin setup.

Beautiful enclosures! :gj:

I have 5 Carpets that are aged 6-10 years old. Since December they may skip their monthly meals. One has skipped only once, 3 have skipped two meals in a row, and one has skipped 3 meals in a row.

As you can see, there are no hard, fast rules, even between males and females. They each have their own schedules.

Nice looking snakes and cool enclosures. Just keep offering food every 2-4 weeks until they're eating consistently again. I'd only thaw one prey item each time and see if either snake eats it. You can also try a different prey type like mice, chicks, quail or asfs, but that's not really necessary. They should naturally start eating again in a couple of months.

Hey I appreciate that. I ordered some large black hamsters and some extra large black rats from Rodent Pro last night, so I will give those a try with the new thaw method, one at a time to not waste them. Appreciate all the help here.

Not sure if anybody still reads these threads, but here's an update. Got rats and XL hamsters from Rodent Pro and thawed them in cold water. Offered one to each, since the Variegata has eaten jumbo rats, but seems smaller now after not eating for so long. My jungle was not interested in food, but the Variegata was more than usual. I was flailing this hamster around so much trying to simulate it being alive, which got him excited as he went to sniff it once, but no go.

Anyway, this morning I woke up to my Jungle doing something I haven't seen him do since I got him and around the time he ate. He was up on the glass just posted up. Picture below. Since he just denied food, would you all wait to feed him, or try again with him being on the glass like that? He has since moved, but just wanted to see what you all thought. Happy Sunday. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...de789818_z.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cee Jay

Not sure if anybody still reads these threads, but here's an update. Got rats and XL hamsters from Rodent Pro and thawed them in cold water. Offered one to each, since the Variegata has eaten jumbo rats, but seems smaller now after not eating for so long. My jungle was not interested in food, but the Variegata was more than usual. I was flailing this hamster around so much trying to simulate it being alive, which got him excited as he went to sniff it once, but no go.

Anyway, this morning I woke up to my Jungle doing something I haven't seen him do since I got him and around the time he ate. He was up on the glass just posted up. Picture below. Since he just denied food, would you all wait to feed him, or try again with him being on the glass like that? He has since moved, but just wanted to see what you all thought. Happy Sunday. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...de789818_z.jpg

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When my Carpets are in this position I have learned to not even bother offering food. Even if they are “scheduled” to eat or past due. It’s as though all they have on their mind is coming out of the cage or just watching me, or just plain o’ herp derping.

There have been times when they are in hunt mode all day, so I defrost the rats. By the time I get them ready they snapped out of hunting mode and only have a jail break on their mind. The rats are never wasted though, there’s always someone in the room who will eat it.

If any of my snakes refuse food they have to wait at least 2 weeks before I offer again. Two of my carpets are starting to eat consistently again. The other three are still hit or miss. I agree with Reinz. Your Jungle looks more like he wants out of the enclosure than he is hungry. My carpets are usually perched and poised to strike when they're hungry.

I wish I had snakes that ate! Mine go to the coyotes in the valley!

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Originally Posted by Cee Jay

I wish I had snakes that ate! Mine go to the coyotes in the valley!

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So you're not a failure then, you just have the wrong 'pets' in the house? :rofl:

Could very well be, smart ass...hahahaha

I have a carpet x gtp cross and he has been off feed for about 2 months. I still offer every 3 weeks or so.

Been a while, everybody. Hope everybody is spending some quality time with their snakes in our current state of affairs. If any of you have followed along with this, my Jungle finally ate a small rat for the first time in probably 5 months, so that is a good thing. My Variegata still hasn't eaten, but is still acting normal. What's really crazy is that she has shed completely 2x since not eating, one of those was today, which has me completely mind blown. The heat spot by the RHP was just turned up to 94-95* from 93, with the cold side around low 80s. Humidity stays at 65% and I really think the husbandry in both enclosures, which run on the same thermo, is as spot on as anything.

Really not terribly worried yet, but hoping the warmer temps that were just increased, induced the other shed. She did a random poop about a month ago, so it's all just really weird at this point. It was really moist and relatively normal considering the extended time without food. She's "leaner" but not emaciated looking. I suppose a snake that hasn't eating in some time isn't going to be as beefy as when normal feeding. Would love to hear any experience with this anybody has had and any words of advice. Thnx.

CJ

As long as my husbandry is on point, and I don't think the snake is sick, I don't worry about them not eating anymore. I do think your temps are just a little high. I keep my carpets with a hot spot of 88-90 max and ambient temps in the mid 70s to low 80s. A few of my carpets go off feed seasonally. All but one of them are eating again now and it looks like that snake is prepping to shed even though she hasn't eaten since December. Now that your jungle has had a meal hopefully she's back on track. Your other critter should catch on again soon too. My Coastal didn't eat all of January or February but has eaten the last two times I've offered food. My Bredli has been hit or miss since December but he ate a jumbo mouse in late March. I'll probably have to give him jumbo mice or scented rats until he's eating normally again. Keep offering food every 2-4 weeks and they'll get with the program eventually. The hunger ALWAYS wins in the end

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Originally Posted by Reinz

When my Carpets are in this position I have learned to not even bother offering food. Even if they are “scheduled” to eat or past due. It’s as though all they have on their mind is coming out of the cage or just watching me, or just plain o’ herp derping.

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That's very interesting Reinz. My Bredli is still young so he has never refused a meal, even during winter.
But my Ball Python will refuse 100% of the time if he's roaming about in his enclosure when is time to feed and like you I don't even bother to offer. He has to be in his hide with his head sticking out, and then I know he's ready to eat.

All,

After probably five months, finally have two snakes eating again. Hopefully for anybody who reads this thread, realize that patience and consistency will likely pay off.

The method that finally worked was:

1. Thaw the rat in lukewarm water.

2. Bring water on stove to roughly 130* and also keep a bowl of about 110* water available.

3. When ready to feed, put rat in the warmer bowl of water and let sit for about 5 minutes. Pat dry. Get a cup of the hot water and dip the rats head in it for about 1 minute.

4. Quick-pay dry, offer and continue this process until it eats.

This variegata has no strike response and likes to smell all over the rat and still refuse. This has been the issue for months. Ended up dropping the whole rat in the hot water for about thirty seconds and laying it outside the hide and she finally ate. Will continue moving up sizes here and likely feed every couple weeks. Hope she continues to eat.

Thanks for all the advice.

CJ

I'm glad your critters are eating again. I'm a firm believer that they all eat eventually. My last holdout took her first meal yesterday after a 4 month fast. I hope yours are back on track now.

Would you move up in meal size right away?

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Originally Posted by Cee Jay

Would you move up in meal size right away?

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I actually feed smaller meals when they're coming off of a fast. If they were eating large/medium rats I'll give them mediums/smalls for a couple of feedings. Once I know their appetites are consistent and strong then I'll increase the prey size. My Bredli is really quirky. He normally eats medium rats. He won't touch rats right now but he'll slam jumbo mice. I'll let him have a couple of mice just to get him eating again then I'll start scenting the rats with a mouse. He'll refuse a couple of times and I won't feed him anything. After a few refusals he'll take a scented rat and in a couple of months he'll be eating unscented rats again. It sounds like your crew is heating up again. There's nothing wrong with giving them more food while they're taking it. I tend to feed my animals just a little bit more during the summer months. They eat more like every 2-4 weeks. My bullsnakes and Olive eat every 10-14 days.

Thought I'd add to this "cursed" post, even this is more of a general question. After finally eating after months, my variegata has been sniffing and literally sort of looking down at a f/t rat for a couple hours now. The wife is home doing the feeding, but has anybody experienced this? I saw a thread about it years ago someone posted, but it seemed more like a "guarding the rat" type of situation. This is more like straight glaring down at it very intently...for a long time. Am I cursed?