What's best viv or Tub? should i switch ?

Hi All

I have recently found this post on feeding and behavior and wondered if you all could share your thoughts especially the part in bold.

All debates welcome.


The post :

Firstly, ball pythons do not like change. They will gladly adapt to their new surroundings over a period of time, but the happier that they were at their previous home could influence how long they take to settle in at the new one. It's important to learn from very early on that a ball pythons quality of life is not as influenced by a beautiful cage with lots of plants, vines, waterfalls and other unnecessary accessories as it is by security and temperature. A very good tip for less experienced keepers is to remember that Ball Pythons are generally happiest when they are snug and not openly exposed.

Our youngsters are kept in small flat tubs to simulate the cramped burrows and termite hills that they make their homes of in nature.......... A big spacious cage with hides is not the right setup for ball pythons and while some will tolerate this display cage environment, most will not thrive.?????....... These are incredibly shy snakes and feel threatened very easily. Closed up, cramped living quarters allows them the security they need and results in a more relaxed animal. Which is the first key to a feeding response.

Also note that the entire anthill or sub-terrainian sanctuary that they would normally utilize will not have a temperature gradient. It is for this reason that a cold cage with a 32 degree hot spot in the corner does not work as well as a tub with a consistent ambient temp in our experience. (????) True ?

Should i switch ? i really want whats best for my animals.
I appreciate everyone's input:gj:

I would really appreciate the development on this point as well. We have ours in a large open bioactive enclosure with over 5 hides and nooks of various temps, along with live plants and logs, and she uses nearly all of the hides equally, and nestles around the plants to bask. She seems to love it. I don't understand why it would make for a worse environment - as long as the snake feels secure I don't see why it would make a difference. She isn't actively trying to escape, she doesn't seem stressed... If she wants to hide (as she does 90% of the day) then she has the option to, completely out of sight.

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Any environment that is created in a tub can also be recreated in a vivarium of ample size. To say that one is better than the other is reliant upon setup.

And for thermal gradients and ball pythons: I don't like them. If one side is too hot or one side too cold then that space cannot be utilized by the snake. If you have ideal ambient temp then the majority of the space (excluding hot spot) can be used at any given point in time.

What is BEST is to provide proper husbandry allowing the animal to thrive, and that can be achieved in various way glass tank, cages or tubs, ultimately it is up to the keeper to see what work for them and their animals.

Some people fail as keepers whether it's with a tank a cage or a tub and some will succeed regardless of the enclosure.

SO it is about being open and do what works, and what might work one day might not work 2 or 3 years from now either which is why being in tune and understand your own animals is very important.

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Originally Posted by Absololol

I would really appreciate the development on this point as well. We have ours in a large open bioactive enclosure with over 5 hides and nooks of various temps, along with live plants and logs, and she uses nearly all of the hides equally, and nestles around the plants to bask. She seems to love it. I don't understand why it would make for a worse environment - as long as the snake feels secure I don't see why it would make a difference. She isn't actively trying to escape, she doesn't seem stressed... If she wants to hide (as she does 90% of the day) then she has the option to, completely out of sight.

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would love to see your set up!

Should you switch? I would ask you if you are struggling with any aspects of husbandry now...Also, if your snake is giving you reasons to consider that it is not happy with something.

As others have alluded to already, taking into account the environment the tub/viv exists in is important as well. Living in an environment that is at times excessively cold and dry (due to heating needs) means that for me, using tubs has created great improvements to the environments I can provide for my snakes. It was a case of "how hard do I want to try to fight nature?" Once I had the proper materials for my particular situation, maintaining good husbandry is easy.

Also, to the article's point of not providing a thermal gradient, I wonder how they define this term. Naturally there will be areas of any enclosure that are warmer and cooler, besides maybe in temperature controlled rooms. Is it possible to keep bps well in a climate controlled room, but I wonder if they would appreciate some slight variation so they could, for example, lay in a warmer area or cool off a bit...At least have a choice, not a huge unhealthy variation in temperature.

It’s all been covered all ready but I like to see my beautiful snakes so they’re all in wooden vivs with branches and caves / hiding places and fake foliage ..


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Originally Posted by Tila

Should you switch? I would ask you if you are struggling with any aspects of husbandry now...Also, if your snake is giving you reasons to consider that it is not happy with something.

As others have alluded to already, taking into account the environment the tub/viv exists in is important as well. Living in an environment that is at times excessively cold and dry (due to heating needs) means that for me, using tubs has created great improvements to the environments I can provide for my snakes. It was a case of "how hard do I want to try to fight nature?" Once I had the proper materials for my particular situation, maintaining good husbandry is easy.

Also, to the article's point of not providing a thermal gradient, I wonder how they define this term. Naturally there will be areas of any enclosure that are warmer and cooler, besides maybe in temperature controlled rooms. Is it possible to keep bps well in a climate controlled room, but I wonder if they would appreciate some slight variation so they could, for example, lay in a warmer area or cool off a bit...At least have a choice, not a huge unhealthy variation in temperature.

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I do have a gradient from 27 -32 degrees and 27 - 30 for my spider morph (they do better with less heat,,,) my temps are on point and my thermostats dont have trouble keeping up and my humidity is 50 - 60, but i still do get the odd refusal of meals once a month. According to the breeder that wrote this post if your animal thrives it should never refuse a meal with that being said your temps are on point and the rodent temp is on point as well , still i do get refusals they hide they do anything a normal ball does but this got me thinking that they are not thriving???? His own words was if your animal is not food aggressive evrytime on the scheduled feeding day except for shedding etc ,, then its only eating to stay alive , where do you draw the line ? He also states to not point to individuals but rather than a group of balls from years of experience which i dont have and need more insight. .

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

What is BEST is to provide proper husbandry allowing the animal to thrive, and that can be achieved in various way glass tank, cages or tubs, ultimately it is up to the keeper to see what work for them and their animals.

Some people fail as keepers whether it's with a tank a cage or a tub and some will succeed regardless of the enclosure.

SO it is about being open and do what works, and what might work one day might not work 2 or 3 years from now either which is why being in tune and understand your own animals is very important.

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I agree with you, but like i said where do you draw the line how do you really tell if your animal is thriving or eating to stay alive ?:confusd:

nvm the husbandry that's triple checked everyday.
Not much more i can do for them they have lots of security my temps and humidity is almost a constant. clean water every 2nd or 3rd day.

Anything more than that will stress my snakes out they also get left alone at-least 4 days a week 2 days after feeding and 2 more days just to be sure (my ocd).:gj:

I should also state that my one ball python male is a very shy eater, i have to lay the rat in there and leave the room he will eat it 4 hours later , This also got me thinking maybe my snakes are not thriving :(.
Although all is on point?

I have been brainstorming this concept for two days now:rofl:

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Originally Posted by Albert420

I do have a gradient from 27 -32 degrees and 27 - 30 for my spider morph (they do better with less heat,,,) my temps are on point and my thermostats dont have trouble keeping up and my humidity is 50 - 60, but i still do get the odd refusal of meals once a month. According to the breeder that wrote this post if your animal thrives it should never refuse a meal with that being said your temps are on point and the rodent temp is on point as well , still i do get refusals they hide they do anything a normal ball does but this got me thinking that they are not thriving???? His own words was if your animal is not food aggressive evrytime on the scheduled feeding day except for shedding etc ,, then its only eating to stay alive , where do you draw the line ? He also states to not point to individuals but rather than a group of balls from years of experience which i dont have and need more insight. .

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I might have missed this, but how old are your snakes, what size prey do you feed, how long have you had them and what were they eating before you got them? I have had most of my guys 4+ years now (and the longest 6 years) and I have noticed trends in their eating habits. For the adults it appears tied to their breeding cycle and my hatchlings and younger guys tend to eat with regularity.

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Originally Posted by Tila

I might have missed this, but how old are your snakes, what size prey do you feed, how long have you had them and what were they eating before you got them? I have had most of my guys 4+ years now (and the longest 6 years) and I have noticed trends in their eating habits. For the adults it appears tied to their breeding cycle and my hatchlings and younger guys tend to eat with regularity.

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I have them for 6 months now,, thus being part of the problem as only experience is the best teacher.

They are both yearlings at around 900 grams. They each get a small rat once a week , they dont want anything to do with mice. Actually scared of it or just not familiar with the scent i guess ?

It's really not that they are starving or not eating at all they are eating but if you properly want to take pride in your pets you should do whats best for them.

im over what makes me happy , if they have to be in a tub where i will barely see them so be it....

Like i take my dogs for walks everyday. (i dont always have the time but i make time). They are social animals we must do whats best for them like Deborah said you should get to know and understand your animals , this only comes with time,,,, unfortunately i was looking for a quick answer here,,,,,,,, , there is really no short answer to this,,, as to everyone will just has an opinion on whats best for them and the snakes for me its just about the snakes,,,,, , i have a bit of extra cash the next few months i will switch and test this experience myself and see what works best , i was told to look for aggressive feeding responses and not a I feel sorry for myself attitude

Well, given that info, if I were in your shoes I would just hold steady with what you have. If they are eating (but not ravenously) with regularity I would keep going as you are. They may just still be settling in, and maybe aren't growing as fast right now. Snake care can require a big picture perspective which can be unnerving if you are used to more immediate feedback. It's great that you are inquiring about your husbandry and practices, it shows you care!

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Originally Posted by Tila

Well, given that info, if I were in your shoes I would just hold steady with what you have. If they are eating (but not ravenously) with regularity I would keep going as you are. They may just still be settling in, and maybe aren't growing as fast right now. Snake care can require a big picture perspective which can be unnerving if you are used to more immediate feedback. It's great that you are inquiring about your husbandry and practices, it shows you care!

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Sometimes i think i care too much ,,, not for animals but for humans lol

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I agree with you, but like i said where do you draw the line how do you really tell if your animal is thriving or eating to stay alive ?:confusd:

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Well it is a snake and therefore my expectations are based on the species at hand in this case a BP, if the snake eats (not doing so if young is often the first clue of something that could be off), is healthy and exhibiting a normal behaviour which would mean hiding 80% of the time than I consider this animal to be thriving.

The rest comes with experience and each specific animal and what triggers them, when you pay attention your snakes let you know if something is wrong.

People overfeed snakes in captivity all the time. They do not need to eat every time they find a meal, unlike their wild brethren.

There are a dozen reasons a snake might refuse a meal. It's carrying plenty of internal fat, it's early in shed, it's using resources for a growth spurt, a hormone spike is telling it to focus on mating instead of food, a light pattern day length that means "winter is coming, quit eating because you'll get sick of sepsis when prey rots in your stomach," it has a mild bug and needs to fuel it's immune system, not the physical effort of digesting.

Contrary to popular belief, ball pythons do not spend all their lives in termite mounds or underground at constant temperature. They will estivate there during hot months. Some prefer to hunt in rodent burrows, some hunt on the surface, and some (especially males) climb trees. I wonder how the tiny tub proponents rationalize things like the studies showing a high rate of birds as prey in some populations?

Kina hard to ambush a bird from a burrow where you always live and never experience the temperature gradients that exist in every single biome.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/...50009809386744

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Originally Posted by Albert420

According to the breeder that wrote this post if your animal thrives it should never refuse a meal with that being said your temps are on point and the rodent temp is on point as well

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I think you'd find that many people, breeders included, who keep ball pythons wouldn't buy this statement for a second. I certainly don't.

Snakes are fed in captivity MUCH more regularly than they would eat in the wild. Obesity in captive snakes is a problem. There are many reasons a snake being kept well with proper husbandry/security might refuse a meal. Perhaps the snake just isn't hungry. It might be going into shed. Or refusals could be related to breeding or the season - ie, winter fast.

I would be suspicious of any breeder or YouTuber or whoever who professes that there is only ONE way to do things or that things SHOULD always or never be one way or the other.

There are generally accepted standards for caring for ball pythons (ie, the need for appropriate temps and humidity), but there are many, many ways to achieve proper husbandry and security for your snake.

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According to the breeder that wrote this post if your animal thrives it should never refuse a meal with that being said your temps are on point and the rodent temp is on point as well

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Than that so called breeder :rolleyes: has very limited experience with snakes in general and that species in particular :gj:

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Originally Posted by NebulaJam

would love to see your set up!

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Hi Nebulajam, sorry about the delay, was away from home and couldn't take good pics. I've attached a pic of the entire viv, along with some of her hides. She uses pretty much all of them, and moves between them depending on her mood. The one to the very far left is a 'damp' hide. To my surprise, her favourite by far is the half log, because I've blocked off one side and stuffed it with leaves, making it very snug. She likes to poke her head out when she's in feeding mode. The others she uses variously too. The hides aren't identical and are different sizes and temps, but I stuff the big ones with substrate and leaves and it seems to make her happy. I bought them for her to 'grow into' and was worried she wouldn't feel secure. I was prepared to alter them but she seems like she doesn't mind at all. She also loves basking under her CHE after eating. There are live plants in there to create cover for her too, she loves to nestle between them.

Eats regularly, doesn't constantly roam, just chills and feels comfortable in using all of her enclosure. She also loves to use the branch to climb and I've seen her drinking several times from her bowl! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...be98bb8e46.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9408eb67d8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...26e561f5f7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...cccd1e4168.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b6e41bc6a9.jpg

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