Unexpected babies...couple of questions

So we had a surprise clutch. 8 eggs, 4 babies hatched.

questions...

the show no interest in food...at all. Tried feeding them twice now with mouse hoppers. How long should we try to keep feeding before assist feeding? I sticky above said a couple of months??? I think that is way to long. They hatched out at 54-60g. They look to be getting that triangle shape. I'm getting worried. Three weeks out of the egg.

all separated and shed.
temps 80ambient, uth 90 with stat.
papertowels misted to hit 60%
all have hides
try to feed every three days.

How long ago did they hatch? How long since their first shed?

Never mind, saw the hatch date was three weeks ago. I don't offer food until at least a week post-shed and some breeders wait longer.

Are you offering live or F/T? Also, offering every 3 days might be too frequently. I would try leaving them alone for a week, then trying a live fuzzy. Technically fuzzies are too small, but I've found that hoppers can be too darty for more timid hatchlings. After they take the first fuzzy, the next feeding you can try a hopper. Also, at first, only buy one or two live mice at a time because the first couple of feedings you may encounter refusals. As babies they also tend to be more triangular but if you weighed them you will be able to tell if they are beginning to lose more weight.

I agree with above. I wait a week after shed, around 90-95% take the first time offered and the few that have not eat the next offering a week later. Live mouse hoppers are what I offer for first meal and definitely have the highest take rate vs others.

Stop trying to feed them so often, your stressing them out and decreasing the odds of them taking it. Wait a full week. Do not bother them at all for that week. Then drop in a live hopper in the evening and leave them alone. Check back 20 minutes later and odds are they will have eaten it assuming you have them in a good hatchling setup and they are not stressed for other reasons. If you're not sure, put them in the setup Deb describes in her sticky about feeding hatchlings. I have mine in a ARS hatchling rack but I had the same success when I had them in a homemade rack system using 8qt tubs. You want them in a small secure type of setup or they will feel too exposed, stress out and most likely won't eat.

You should read the sticky either way, it's helped many.

Good luck!

Mostly just echoing what has already been said.

Awesome that they have hides. They're all in 6 qt shoe boxes in a rack, right? If you're misting daily, back it up a little. These are unhappy babies, and any unnecessary interaction is just making them more stressed.

Try dialing down the temperature. I keep my babies at 86-88 degrees as they seem to do better at these slightly lower temps.

Consider switching to a particulate substrate like aspen or cypress. Scared babies can feel more confident with a natural substrate, and cypress especially is better for humidity.

Yeah, offering every three days is WAY too much. The babies are already confused, over-offering only adds stress. Stress depletes condition. I literally did the same thing with my first clutch. Learning curves are rough on us, but they're even rougher on the hatchies. Definitely wait the full week before you try again with live rodents. My favorite to use are mouse fuzzies that have started to open their eyes and crawl around. They're just starting to eat solid foods, and so are less dangerous to leave in for 15-20 minutes. They're also less intimidating to scared babies. But hoppers are also great.

If they don't eat, wait another week and try again.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

I agree with above. I wait a week after shed, around 90-95% take the first time offered and the few that have not eat the next offering a week later. Live mouse hoppers are what I offer for first meal and definitely have the highest take rate vs others.

Stop trying to feed them so often, your stressing them out and decreasing the odds of them taking it. Wait a full week. Do not bother them at all for that week. Then drop in a live hopper in the evening and leave them alone. Check back 20 minutes later and odds are they will have eaten it assuming you have them in a good hatchling setup and they are not stressed for other reasons. If you're not sure, put them in the setup Deb describes in her sticky about feeding hatchlings. I have mine in a ARS hatchling rack but I had the same success when I had them in a homemade rack system using 8qt tubs. You want them in a small secure type of setup or they will feel too exposed, stress out and most likely won't eat.

You should read the sticky either way, it's helped many.

Good luck!

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I did read the sticky which is why i was confused on the months part of the not eating. Ok i will wait a week and try again. Also we are not feeding live. We are doing F/T. We dont want to do live unless absolutely last resort/necessary. I will also drop thw uth by 2 degrees. Also someone asked when they shed. They all shed out 6 days ago. Two of them 8 days ago.thank you everyone for replying. I feel better.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Also we are not feeding live. We are doing F/T. We dont want to do live unless absolutely last resort/necessary.

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Really, really think about feeding live. It's light years easier.

That said, I start most of my babies on F/T. It is not the same as feeding established juvies or adults. In case it helps, here's what I do:

Feed at night
Thaw the hoppers at room temp over the course of the afternoon/evening. Keep them dry.
Warm them to living mouse temperature. It helps if they're a smidge warmer. A blow dryer or light bulb works. (I use a light bulb)
Quietly slide open the tub, lay in the warmed rodent, and close it. Try to keep it quiet, and do not zombie dance the rodents. Just quietly lay them on the substrate and walk away.
Lights go out, I don't bug them again until the morning. Then I'll change water, remove any rodents, clean any dirty cages, whatever. Then I leave the babies alone as much as possible for a whole 7 days and their next offering.

If I'm starting a new clutch, everyone starts on paper towels. Babies that don't eat after 2 offerings get switched to cypress. Then they're offered 2 more times. I give babies four tries to start on F/T. Fifth offer is a live rodent.

Meant to add -
Just shedding six days ago is super recent. They're not be hungry yet. I give babies a full week after their first shed before I even bother trying to feed them.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

I did read the sticky which is why i was confused on the months part of the not eating. Ok i will wait a week and try again. Also we are not feeding live. We are doing F/T. We dont want to do live unless absolutely last resort/necessary. I will also drop thw uth by 2 degrees. Also someone asked when they shed. They all shed out 6 days ago. Two of them 8 days ago.thank you everyone for replying. I feel better.

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Ok I missed the F/T thing. This is probably your problem, the instinct just doesn't kick in, they don't even recognize it as food because they have not learned the smell. Some aggressive feeders will take F/T for the first meal but from my experience it's about 1/30 so odds are stacked against you. I never pushed for it, I feed almost exclusively F/T but once I had bad results with my hatchlings, I switched to first meal live and then convert them to F/T. Most of them go to F/T the very next meal but that's because now your odds are greatly increased because they recognize the smell. For that first feeding they need every little detail telling their instincts to strike so that natural movement is near impossible to replicate and very important. All it takes is one feeding and now they know the smell so they are much easier to convince the F/T is food. It really is so easy to convert hatchlings because they are so hungry they are not picky, they are just confused. So that's how I do it anyway, I think it would save you a lot of headaches.

I wanted to just touch on the hopper vs fuzzy as well. I had very little success with the fuzzies and a breeder friend of mine told me to go with hoppers instead and his reasoning was, they actually need that jittery fast movement, especially the timid ones because they are not going to actively go find where a fuzzies might be laying. Instead the hopper comes to them at some point and if the hatchling passes on that first go, it isn't long before the hopper is over there irritating them again. This repetitive agitation usually leads to the hatchling getting irritated enough to strike. It makes sense to me and it has proven true for me in a big way. I had 1 out of 10 take the fuzzies and then all remaining 9 took the hoppers, that was one of my first clutches, never tried a fuzzy again, never needed to, I've had extremely good luck getting all my hatchlings to take hoppers, almost all by the second offering.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

Ok I missed the F/T thing. This is probably your problem, the instinct just doesn't kick in, they don't even recognize it as food because they have not learned the smell. Some aggressive feeders will take F/T for the first meal but from my experience it's about 1/30 so odds are stacked against you...

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This applies to most snakes, IMO- not just BPs. Much as I advocate feeding f/t, the first meal is better off live so those instincts kick in.

Not to hammer the point in but I’d say 99% of breeders start off with live. Then after a few meals swap to f/t. I’m 100% for feeding frozen but that’s to protect the snake. And the tiny mice/rats can’t really do much harm as they are babies too. So I keep an eye on them to make sure the rodent isn’t biting the snake after I hear the strike.

So id say throw a live one in there at night, close it up and sit close and wait for the strike and after a little I peek in to where they don’t notice me. If everything is good I let him take it from there

Thanks everyone. I will talk to my partner about the live for the first meal. I can't decide this alone. Last time I did live I literally cried lol. Maybe she can do it...I know I won't be able to lol. Im a sappy wussy.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Thanks everyone. I will talk to my partner about the live for the first meal. I can't decide this alone. Last time I did live I literally cried lol. Maybe she can do it...I know I won't be able to lol. Im a sappy wussy.

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I can understand your issue, I love all animals and have always had a hard time dealing with killing any animal even for food. You just have to understand this is nature and if you want to keep a predatory animal your going to have to accept what it eats even if you love that animal as well. If you can't then you probably should not keep animals like that.

What I have found to be the least upsetting way of dealing with live feeders is make absolutely no contact, don't even look at it. Of course you're going to fall in love with it if you're looking at it, holding it or interacting with it in any way and that is why it becomes so upsetting to see it get killed and eaten. I put mine in a bucket and don't look at them until it's time to feed and then I simply grab the tail and drop it in the tub, close it and walk away. Over the years this has allowed me to become less sensitive and it doesn't really bother me anymore, it still would if I held the animal and looked at it like a pet. If you are so sensitive that even looking in the bucket and grabbing it's tail to drop it in is enough to make you feel attached, then try to get a single feeder per single container and don't even look at it, open box and dump it in snake enclosure with never even looking at it. This is only safe when the feeders are too small/young to do harm to the snake. But at least it can get you past this first very important meal for the hatchlings. If you ever need to feed larger feeders you will need to be ok with checking on the feeding to make sure the rodent doesn't harm the snake but hopefully this first meal is all you need to worry about and then they will all easily switch to F/T. Good luck.

First if they shed out to 6 to 8 days ago they should not have been offered food twice already, the more you offer the worse it is.

If you have not already they need to be setup like this https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101 to a T and I mean a T

Hatchlings can start immediately once they hatch or up to 6 to 8 weeks whether you intervene to the next step of assisting will depend on their overall shape.

I always offer the same prey (live hopper mouse) 3 times 7 days apart if that does not work I do the same with rat 3 times 7 days apart, then if they still do not eat that is when I may start assisting with a small F/T hopper. Depending on again overall shape and original weight.

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I will talk to my partner about the live for the first meal. I can't decide this alone. Last time I did live I literally cried

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The question will you cry too when you have reached the point of no return and they fade away or become poor feeders or die because they you did not do everything you should be willing to do if you have hatchlings?

I understand not everyone wants to feed live but this is something everyone should be willing to do when it comes down to it because those are snakes.

Also I assume they all absorbed their yolks? No twisted umbilical cords, runs, or anything like that in the litter?

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

The question will you cry too when you have reached the point of no return and they fade away or become poor feeders or die because they you did not do everything you should be willing to do if you have hatchlings?

I understand not everyone wants to feed live but this is something everyone should be willing to do when it comes down to it because those are snakes.

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Yes I will cry. I also do understand that these are animals that eat live animals in the wild. I will do it if I have to do it. However...my partner will most likely do it instead of me. I have fed live before...I just don't like to do it. And I will not let them get to the point of no return.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Also I assume they all absorbed their yolks? No twisted umbilical cords, runs, or anything like that in the litter?

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Yes no yolks or twisted cords. No runts.

she laid 8 eggs and 1 slug.
5 hatched and one died the next morning.
4 remaining babes weighing 54-60g
3 eggs didn't hatch not viable.

Thanks again everyone...I am taking everything in and will make it all happen. I appreciate everyone. Like I said this was out of the blue. One morning there were eggs. We did not even know she was paired nor did her previous owner.

Here are the babies. And if anyone can tell me what the whiteish one is....
Mom is a pastave and dad we think is a normal het for something. The previous owner has a female normal that we now know is a male....https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7dd339b168.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f92d6e4845.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...18b79c041e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...74e1ea0247.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...44b1117e58.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...09199043fd.jpg

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I can’t see the eyes but looks like u have a bel!

Dad is not normal and mom and dad are both het hypo also. Dad is in the BEL complex

She has a very faint pattern and a grayish head. I thought BEL too. Could she be a super mohave?

mom (coco) is Mohave pastel.
dad? (Dora) who was kept together with coco because previous owner thought was female (lol) looks like a normal. Which we just found all this out.

So so what are all the other babies?

Post a picture of the sire, no way he's a normal.

I agree with Deb that both parents are het hypo.

I don't have a pic of Dora.

What at does het hypo mean?

Here is mom and while they are pipping with lucy out of her egg.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...645a858ec3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ec83d22a4e.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

What at does het hypo mean?

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Both parents are carriers of the recessive Hypomelanistic (aka Ghost) gene. One normal copy of the gene, one mutant copy. So, just like Het Pied, Het Albino, any other recessive. The two faded babies are Hypos - they got the recessive version of the gene from both parents. The wild type baby is a Possible Het Hypo. The BEL is either also Hypo, or another Poss Het Hypo. Kinda hard to tell.

Only pic of dora aka possible dadhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...04ce7aa8c7.jpg

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Sorry better pic. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...44c0b2ce8f.jpg


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Originally Posted by bcr229

Post a picture of the sire, no way he's a normal.

I agree with Deb that both parents are het hypo.

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

Dad is not normal and mom and dad are both het hypo also. Dad is in the BEL complex

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I agree, first thing I thought when I saw the first pic, hypo! Congrats on a surprise clutch and a good one at that! Two unknown hets for the same recessive gene on an accidental pairing, can't say I've heard of that happening before lol. And bels too from a dad you thought was normal lol, I have to say, you're pretty lucky haha.

Ok so here is an update. We got live hoppers for them. 2 have eaten, 2 have not. Infact one mouse is sleeping with the snake in the hide. How long can we keep the live hopper in with the snakes? She put them in yesterday. Houdini ate almost immediately, and squiggs ate this morning. How long before we worry for the other two or move the mouse to the other two so the mice don't die? This baby thing is all so new. Thanks everyone.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Ok so here is an update. We got live hoppers for them. 2 have eaten, 2 have not. Infact one mouse is sleeping with the snake in the hide. How long can we keep the live hopper in with the snakes? She put them in yesterday. Houdini ate almost immediately, and squiggs ate this morning. How long before we worry for the other two or move the mouse to the other two so the mice don't die? This baby thing is all so new. Thanks everyone.

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I’ll let the others answer for sure, but I’m like 100% sure you shouldn’t be letting them stay so long unsupervised. But I could be wrong. Best of luck, and congratulations.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Ok so here is an update. We got live hoppers for them. 2 have eaten, 2 have not. Infact one mouse is sleeping with the snake in the hide. How long can we keep the live hopper in with the snakes? She put them in yesterday. Houdini ate almost immediately, and squiggs ate this morning. How long before we worry for the other two or move the mouse to the other two so the mice don't die? This baby thing is all so new. Thanks everyone.

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Great that two ate!

That said . . . 15 minutes is the amount of time a non-eaten mouse is supposed to stay in the enclosure. Leaving rodents with snakes unattended is VERY UNSAFE for the snake and the reason we already recommended times of 10-15 minutes before the hoppers are removed. So. Remove the uneaten mice, set them up with mouse food and water. In a week, either re-offer the uneaten mice to the two babies that have not eaten, or give them to the two babies that have eaten. Then, when you, remember to stick with the 15 minute max rule.

But, hey, two babies that have eaten is a start.

I've been busy today & late to answer, but agree with above posts: live hoppers are NOT safe to leave with snake for long. Any mouse or rat with eyes open (like
hoppers) WILL bite in self defense (though not so effectively just yet), and when they get hungry enough, the snake MAY be considered as edible...so never leave
them together for very long...& certainly never together overnight. Always best to supervise live hoppers.

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Originally Posted by Alicia

Great that two ate!

That said . . . 15 minutes is the amount of time a non-eaten mouse is supposed to stay in the enclosure. Leaving rodents with snakes unattended is VERY UNSAFE for the snake and the reason we already recommended times of 10-15 minutes before the hoppers are removed. So. Remove the uneaten mice, set them up with mouse food and water. In a week, either re-offer the uneaten mice to the two babies that have not eaten, or give them to the two babies that have eaten. Then, when you, remember to stick with the 15 minute max rule.

But, hey, two babies that have eaten is a start.

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Thank you. They are coming out now.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I've been busy today & late to answer, but agree with above posts: live hoppers are NOT safe to leave with snake for long. Any mouse or rat with eyes open (like
hoppers) WILL bite in self defense (though not so effectively just yet), and when they get hungry enough, the snake MAY be considered as edible...so never leave
them together for very long...& certainly never together overnight. Always best to supervise live hoppers.

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Thanks! Seperating and will offer again in a week to the babes that didnt eat this week.

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Could you try fuzzies for the non-eaters instead? I am aware that fuzzies are not technically enough food for growth, but I have had quicker and less fuss getting shy hatchlings started using live fuzzies for 2-3 feedings and then switching up to hoppers once the snake's appetite kicks in. I have found this works better than having a snake cower and defensively strike at a larger mouse and then have to take the longer more worrying path of still not eating and losing weight.

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Originally Posted by Tila

Could you try fuzzies for the non-eaters instead? I am aware that fuzzies are not technically enough food for growth, but I have had quicker and less fuss getting shy hatchlings started using live fuzzies for 2-3 feedings and then switching up to hoppers once the snake's appetite kicks in. I have found this works better than having a snake cower and defensively strike at a larger mouse and then have to take the longer more worrying path of still not eating and losing weight.

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We can try that too. I'm not involved with the live feeding so I will have her do it. Thanks for the advice.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

We can try that too. I'm not involved with the live feeding so I will have her do it. Thanks for the advice.

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I just read through this entire thread. What do you do when/if your animals don’t eat FT? Just let them suffer? I just can’t wrap my head around people who can’t feed a snake live and will, like Deborah said, force the snake to suffer stuffing a FT rat in their face every 3 days. The snake doesn’t know any better. It’s not their fault. Please don’t put a male and a female together again in my opinion. No more “surprise” clutches hopefully.

I love animals just as much or more than most people. But I have no problems feeding a rat to a snake. It is 100% natural and I don’t see how it bothers people that own snakes. I can see someone not owning a snake because it may have to eat live, but if u own a snake u should know that that could happen.

But it I do feed frozen for the snakes safety, and I have no issue with people that have a problem feeding live but just don’t understand it

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Originally Posted by Danger noodles

I love animals just as much or more than most people. But I have no problems feeding a rat to a snake. It is 100% natural and I don’t see how it bothers people that own snakes. I can see someone not owning a snake because it may have to eat live, but if u own a snake u should know that that could happen.

But it I do feed frozen for the snakes safety, and I have no issue with people that have a problem feeding live but just don’t understand it

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I agree with this 1,000%. I too feed FT to what will eat FT consistently. Some of my animals refused FT multiple times trying to convert... I will never beat a dead horse. I have supply of both luckily, but like you said, it is what it is. I just can’t allow them to go months without eating for MY benefit. Neglectful IMO.

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Originally Posted by Moose84

I just read through this entire thread. What do you do when/if your animals don’t eat F/T I feed live like She is doing. This isn't my animal btw.
Just let them suffer? Nope...feeding live.
I just can’t wrap my head around people who can’t feed a snake live and will, like Deborah said, force the snake to suffer stuffing a FT rat in their face every 3 days. Which is why I asked. Never had babies...didn't expect babies.

The snake doesn’t know any better. It’s not their fault. Please don’t put a male and a female together again in my opinion. This was done "before" my friend even got the snake from a previous owner who thought they were both girls. The only reason we now know Dora is a boy is from the surprise clutch.

No more “surprise” clutches hopefully.

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so if you read the entire thread you would have known most of this. But thanks for jumping on me like I. A terrible snake owner. I know nothing about babies and came here to get advice and you made me feel like the stupidest person on the planet. So thanks for that.

Umm couple of things... I will put my responses in blue in your quote.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

so if you read the entire thread you would have known most of this. But thanks for jumping on me like I. A terrible snake owner. I know nothing about babies and came here to get advice and you made me feel like the stupidest person on the planet. So thanks for that.

Umm couple of things... I will put my responses in blue in your quote.

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Don't let anyone get to you, people tend to come down on people pretty hard here for making mistakes but I think they just have the animals best interest at heart and nobody here likes seeing animals suffer. But everyone makes mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them. Don't let the way people deliver good advice get you down, for the most part I think everyone here is just trying to help, they are just a little harsh with the delivery haha.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

Don't let anyone get to you, people tend to come down on people pretty hard here for making mistakes but I think they just have the animals best interest at heart and nobody here likes seeing animals suffer. But everyone makes mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them. Don't let the way people deliver good advice get you down, for the most part I think everyone here is just trying to help, they are just a little harsh with the delivery haha.

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I agree with rufretic here. On this forum I’ve seen a lot of new people beat up on by the elitists of the hobby. I get that everyone has the animals best interest in mind, but the way they go about it turns new people away. In turn those new people will continue to do things the wrong way because they are afraid to ask questions.

Ok so another update. I'm getting worried about two of them.

The he two that ate last week ate again this week. Yah!

the two that did not eat...they didn't eat again. They didn't have live fuzzies (they were sold out)so she got the smallest hoppers they had. offered and nothing. I'm worried about them. Now what? I'm at a loss...how much longer do I give them? Ugh....

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Ok so another update. I'm getting worried about two of them.

The he two that ate last week ate again this week. Yah!

the two that did not eat...they didn't eat again. They didn't have live fuzzies (they were sold out)so she got the smallest hoppers they had. offered and nothing. I'm worried about them. Now what? I'm at a loss...how much longer do I give them? Ugh....

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Don't consider assist feeding yet. Panic is natural, but it's not your friend. If your rodent supplier gets fuzzies a day or two before the week is up, snag them. Otherwise, unless you have to change a cage, leave these two non-feeders alone as much as possible. Right now, for non-feeders, all nonessential contact only causes stress. We want to minimize that.

Real quick though, a couple questions I haven't found answers to in the thread -
What are the babies housed in? Are they in tanks? Tubs? What size?

Are they still on paper towels? Aspen or cypress (cypress is awesome for humidity) creates a more secure feeling than paper.

Are you still misting daily?

Assist feeding an otherwise healthy baby is the absolute last resort. Some babies stress easier and need more attention to detail on their setups than others. A lot of the time, figuring out what they need to feel secure, as well as providing appropriate prey, is all it takes. Hopefully, someone else will chime in with more ideas.

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Ok so another update. I'm getting worried about two of them.

The he two that ate last week ate again this week. Yah!

the two that did not eat...they didn't eat again. They didn't have live fuzzies (they were sold out)so she got the smallest hoppers they had. offered and nothing. I'm worried about them. Now what? I'm at a loss...how much longer do I give them? Ugh....

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How much longer do you give them until what? Gotta keep trying. Could also try rat pinks or small rat fuzzies, if available (live). Some BPs can be pretty frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

How much longer do you give them until what? Gotta keep trying. Could also try rat pinks or small rat fuzzies, if available (live). Some BPs can be pretty frustrating.

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give them before I assist feed. It is frustrating. I won't give up.

Update again: the two are still not eating. We went down to live fuzzies. No interest. They are in the shoe boxes like debs tutorial. Im at a loss! They will not eat. What do i do! Lucy is at 50g now and bonzo is at 52g. They have lost 10g since hatched. Im panicking!

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

Also we are not feeding live. We are doing F/T. We dont want to do live unless absolutely last resort/necessary. I will also drop thw uth by 2 degrees. Also someone asked when they shed. They all shed out 6 days ago. Two of them 8 days ago.

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We have a very hard time getting live where we live (city bylaws don't let pet shops sell feeders, we aren't able to breed our own, and closest city that sells them is almost 3 hours away), so we also try to start our babies on F/T as well. That being said, on top of some of the other great suggestions here (like feeding at night and in the dark) we do the following because it IS much harder to get them started on F/T:

- Weigh each baby on a kitchen scale asap and weigh them every two weeks. Once they get near losing 10% of their body weight, we begin offering live.

- The biggest challenge is that the small prey sizes cool very quickly. Keep this in mind when offering (don't wave the F/T around in front of them too long). I recommend defrosting a couple mice because it is faster than only having one that you constantly need to reheat. We keep the defrosted ones we are offering in a ziplock floating in hot water. We always have one ready to go!

- Go by body language. If you see tongue flicks and interest, persist (again, keep in mind they cool fast. So if you see interest, be sure to swap mice if the one you are offering is in danger of getting too cool). If they turn away and try to get away from the F/T, stop immediately.

- Keep good records of their behaviour as well as weight. If they seem interested, shy away, defensive strike, etc.

- We have had to assist feed twice in the past 6 years. In both cases, they had lost 10% of their body weight and had refused two to three live meals. Don't assist feed unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. If they only recently hatched, you're fine. Keep in mind they absorb their yokes before hatching. We find that it takes the average baby one month to one and half months to accept F/T.

edit: And now i see this was an older thread and i'm replying to old news! D'oh.

No thank you. I need help. It isn't an old thread. I may have to start a new one since no one is responding.