New snakes. Should we wait?

Brand new breeder here. We just picked up a breeding size male and female a few days ago. Should we go ahead and pair them up or wait a bit, get them settled in and get a couple meals? The girl hasn’t taken food yet and we haven’t offered to the male yet. Female was paired for the first time last year but didn’t go. Male just got up to size this year.

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Originally Posted by KSballer

Brand new breeder here. We just picked up a breeding size male and female a few days ago. Should we go ahead and pair them up or wait a bit, get them settled in and get a couple meals? The girl hasn’t taken food yet and we haven’t offered to the male yet. Female was paired for the first time last year but didn’t go. Male just got up to size this year.

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Are these your first two snakes?

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Are these your first two snakes?

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We got 4 within the past month, 2 are breeding size and 2 are hatchlings. But these are our first, yes.

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Originally Posted by KSballer

We got 4 within the past month, 2 are breeding size and 2 are hatchlings. But these are our first, yes.

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Then you should be focusing on quarantine and learning about keeping these animals. Breeding shouldn't even be considered until you've got years of experience keeping snakes.

Are you quarantining these animals?

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Then you should be focusing on quarantine and learning about keeping these animals. Breeding shouldn't even be considered until you've got years of experience keeping snakes.

Are you quarantining these animals?

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Yes they are currently quarantined.

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Originally Posted by KSballer

Yes they are currently quarantined.

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So how can you pair snakes that are in quarantine?

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

So how can you pair snakes that are in quarantine?

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Some people will pair snakes in QT if they came from the same source. Personally I think that's too much stress on them, plus you don't often know if the prior owner had the snake for a few days or a few years.

I know u probably will not take my advice but I wouldn’t even think about breeding for the first few years. The longer u own these the more u learn. And then u see the market is flooded with ball pythons. So why are u breeding? That’s the question. If u say your passionate about snakes I’m going to disagree because the fact that ur ready to breed and u don’t have a clue about what ur doing. If u did know u wouldn’t ask this question and u would know that it’s best to be an experienced keeper before u think about doing the tons of research before thinking about breeding. Do u have a thousand dollars set aside for mishaps, illness, equipment failure? Do u have a vet that really knows snakes? Do u have an incubator or are u thinking that a guy put them in a styrofoam cooler one time and it worked so I’ll do that?

If u can answer all those and be truly prepared then yeah go for it. But playing god with animals when u haven’t even owned one for more than a month is crazy to me

I have to agree with the above. I don't think you should even be considering breeding yet. You JUST started keeping snakes and want to jump straight into breeding? Why do you NEED to pair them so soon? What are you pairing? What are you hoping to get out of this? Because it sure is coming off, to me, that you're in this for the wrong reason and you just want to pump out babies as fast as you can.

Let the snakes settle down, Pair them next year if you can't wait any longer. Learn more about keeping snakes, about breeding, feel out the market, decide if you would REALLY be contributing something positive to the BP market.

Usually those who breed kept the species as pets for awhile to see if they like working with them, or have previously worked with them, then proceed with breeding plans. You are doing the opposite way: putting the chariot before the horse, if you will. Have you experienced your first months long feeding strike with a bp? Do you know what to do when a hatching refuses to eat its first meals? I agree QT should still have done first, even if they are from the same breeder. You don't know for sure if that breeder raised the female or the male himself/herself, it is common for breeders to buy stock from other breeders. And you don't known for sure every incoming snake was properly QT by the seller.

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Originally Posted by Danger noodles

I know u probably will not take my advice but I wouldn’t even think about breeding for the first few years. The longer u own these the more u learn. And then u see the market is flooded with ball pythons. So why are u breeding? That’s the question. If u say your passionate about snakes I’m going to disagree because the fact that ur ready to breed and u don’t have a clue about what ur doing. If u did know u wouldn’t ask this question and u would know that it’s best to be an experienced keeper before u think about doing the tons of research before thinking about breeding. Do u have a thousand dollars set aside for mishaps, illness, equipment failure? Do u have a vet that really knows snakes? Do u have an incubator or are u thinking that a guy put them in a styrofoam cooler one time and it worked so I’ll do that?

If u can answer all those and be truly prepared then yeah go for it. But playing god with animals when u haven’t even owned one for more than a month is crazy to me

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We do have money set aside. We don’t have a vet but we’re one Facebook message away from a recommendation. We don’t have an incubator but we have an old refrigerator we intend to convert. All I’ve been doing since the mention of the word “snake” has been research. I asked a question I haven’t found an answer for.

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Originally Posted by Spoons

I have to agree with the above. I don't think you should even be considering breeding yet. You JUST started keeping snakes and want to jump straight into breeding? Why do you NEED to pair them so soon? What are you pairing? What are you hoping to get out of this? Because it sure is coming off, to me, that you're in this for the wrong reason and you just want to pump out babies as fast as you can.

Let the snakes settle down, Pair them next year if you can't wait any longer. Learn more about keeping snakes, about breeding, feel out the market, decide if you would REALLY be contributing something positive to the BP market.

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We most likely will wait for the sake of us and the animals. I don’t want to jump into anything too soon and end up with more than we can handle. I don’t want to stress the snakes out and put them at risk. I don’t want to have to build everything I need tomorrow. My wife originally fell in love with ball pythons when she saw an 8 Ball. We just happened to find a Black Pastel Arroyo and a Cinnamon Mojave that are both up to size and ready to go. I don’t know if you’re asking to see if I’m aware of lethal morphs but I’ve looked into those and we’re trying to stay away from those base morphs. We do have a Banana Spider but we may not end up breeding him. This isn’t a money grab. Admittedly, the quick return on investment is attractive but it’s not worth the risk to the animals. The original plan was to find and grow out hatchlings and start producing in a few years so we could learn as we go. Finding these bigger snakes was just a right time right place kind of deal.

I think you may have seen prices of snakes and immediately thought your average joe would pay that price for your snakes. Even if you can produce high end morphs, people are not going to buy them from a no name breeder. Just hop on Craigslist and see how many thousand hobby breeders trying to make a quick buck there are. Do yourself a favor, save yourself the time and the money and enjoy your snakes.

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Originally Posted by DandD

I think you may have seen prices of snakes and immediately thought your average joe would pay that price for your snakes. Even if you can produce high end morphs, people are not going to buy them from a no name breeder. Just hop on Craigslist and see how many thousand hobby breeders trying to make a quick buck there are. Do yourself a favor, save yourself the time and the money and enjoy your snakes.

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Guess I’d better make a good name then. There seems to be an awful lot of beginner info here to be telling hobby breeders to go away just because they aren’t VPI or NERD. Solid advice though. I’ll definitely consider your opinion.

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Originally Posted by KSballer

All I’ve been doing since the mention of the word “snake” has been research. I asked a question I haven’t found an answer for.

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Research is a start, but breeding shouldn't even be on your radar for at least a few years.
You have basically zero experience KEEPING these animals. You certainly shouldn't be breeding them.

Right place right time isn't a good reason to get into breeding years before you're ready.

Please, these are living creatures and not toys. For the sake of the animals please put breeding on the back burner....for a few years, at least....and learn about these animals. And I don't mean what you read or watch on YouTube, I mean years to learn by working with the animals. So please, don't jump into something you're nowhere near experienced enough to do. Not with living creatures.

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Research is a start, but breeding shouldn't even be on your radar for at least a few years.
You have basically zero experience KEEPING these animals. You certainly shouldn't be breeding them.

Right place right time isn't a good reason to get into breeding years before you're ready.

Please, these are living creatures and not toys. For the sake of the animals please put breeding on the back burner....for a few years, at least....and learn about these animals. And I don't mean what you read or watch on YouTube, I mean years to learn by working with the animals. So please, don't jump into something you're nowhere near experienced enough to do. Not with living creatures.

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I appreciate your input. This was kind of already in my mind to begin with so hearing it from other people is definitely helpful. We’ll hold off and keep learning before we dive into this.

It all depends, do you want to jeoperdized your other snake or do you want to be responsible and quarentine for at least 3 to 6 months.

Yes it's been said but I will put the emphasize on it again you do not breed a female you just brought a few days ago.

Over the years I can tell you of 2 people that lost most of their collection and their entire collection because they were so in a hurry to breed and could not wait, even though they knew better.

For the rest some good poi t have been made too many people get into breeding and have done zero research and get into a panicky when eggs are there, hatchlings don't want to eat etc.

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

It all depends, do you want to jeoperdized your other snake or do you want to be responsible and quarentine for at least 3 to 6 months.

Yes it's been said but I will put the emphasize on it again you do not breed a female you just brought a few days ago.

Over the years I can tell you of 2 people that lost most of their collection and their entire collection because they were so in a hurry to breed and could not wait, even though they knew better.

For the rest some good poi t have been made too many people get into breeding and have done zero research and get into a panicky when eggs are there, hatchlings don't want to eat etc.

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Are u trying to say it’s best to know how to swim before u jump into the ocean?

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Originally Posted by KSballer

I appreciate your input. This was kind of already in my mind to begin with so hearing it from other people is definitely helpful. We’ll hold off and keep learning before we dive into this.

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I think you're making the responsible choice. Nothing can educate you better than time and hands-on experience. Obviously I'm comparing apples and oranges here but...
A doctor goes to school for something like 100 years...then they do a residency....before being ready to be a doctor. All the books in the world can't teach experience.
I cook for a living. You can't just read a few cookbooks and hop on a line and be a chef.
My points are, there are reasons that pretty much any job, career, even a 6 year old has to go to dance class for months before getting on stage for a recital.

Take your time and enjoy these amazing animals. They're great pets, enjoy them.

Since I edited a post I might as well add my input.

It's not like we are telling people to not breed it's just that, as others have mentioned, we have seen whole collections wiped out by taking short cuts in quarantine.

It is tempting to think "well both snakes are in quarantine anyway so what is the risk" it's pretty much losing everything. The fact both snakes are new and in quarantine doesn't mean you get to use the same tools, equipment and proceedures for both - if they come from different places you need to do the whole qt checklist before moving from one snake to the other. Just as much as you would before moving from a new animal to an established animal. It seems overprotective at first but the first story you read about someone losing up to hundreds of snakes pretty much sells the precautions for most people.

it's a hard lesson to learn and it's one best learnt by seeing past tragedies than creating a new one. :(


del

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Originally Posted by KSballer

Guess I’d better make a good name then. There seems to be an awful lot of beginner info here to be telling hobby breeders to go away just because they aren’t VPI or NERD. Solid advice though. I’ll definitely consider your opinion.

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I didn’t mean for that post to come off snarky. I just read through and saw you decided to wait. Good choice.

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Originally Posted by KSballer

Brand new breeder here. We just picked up a breeding size male and female a few days ago. Should we go ahead and pair them up or wait a bit, get them settled in and get a couple meals? The girl hasn’t taken food yet and we haven’t offered to the male yet. Female was paired for the first time last year but didn’t go. Male just got up to size this year.

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The ONLY and I mean ONLY time I would ever do what you are thinking about doing is if:

1.) It was someone within my current network of breeders (when I say this I mean people whom I have been in their facilities and have purchased MULTIPLE animals off them) and BOTH animals came from them. I also wouldn't buy them right as the season starts either.. This screams "lets not miss out on this season.. Thats 500 dollars a snake..." Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

2.) They were properly QT'd together in the same space and were both on food for a couple months.. Buying females and males this time of the year, changing their environments completely and then pairing them would be terrible for the animal and would more than likely not produce you anything anyway.

Now with the honesty out of the way I would say 100% NO. Do you understand the environment that hatchlings have to be kept in and how finicky they can be? I would probably learn how to keep adults and sub-adults before you jump into hatchlings. You will more than likely end up killing them if you were lucky enough to get a clutch.

Facebook messenger for a vet recommendation at the last minute will more than likely be a waste of money as you will get a vet who probably knows as much or less than you do about the animal after keeping them for 3 months. Yes. I know that sounds scary but it's true.

Just curious, how big is the female you are looking to breed?(grams) When was she hatched?

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Originally Posted by DandD

I think you may have seen prices of snakes and immediately thought your average joe would pay that price for your snakes. Even if you can produce high end morphs, people are not going to buy them from a no name breeder. Just hop on Craigslist and see how many thousand hobby breeders trying to make a quick buck there are. Do yourself a favor, save yourself the time and the money and enjoy your snakes.

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This post is loaded with truth. Making money on snakes your first 2 months ranks up there with winning the lottery. One of the best breeders I know has been doing this for 10 years and he is barely profitable. Now you would probably say.. "How the hell is he not profitable after ten years?" Because he is doing it RIGHT in my opinion. Never rushes things, builds his brand and focuses on EXCELLENT customers service. When you go to a show he has the best set up there and he is constantly re-investing in his business. Soon he will take off and I will be happy to say I have purchased a lot of my collection from him.

I got my first BP when I was 12.. I had no clue what I was doing and had to end up surrendering it. 4 years ago my son wanted one and I pulled the trigger. I had learned from the mistakes I made years prior and really dedicated myself to learning about the animals and the proper ways of housing them and caring for them. I will make my first pairing THIS DECEMBER if that tells you anything and its only one pairing.. Both of them I have raised since juveniles or hatchlings..

I'll finish by saying it's normal progression to want to breed the animals, i get it.. But there is a lot you probably don't know at this point and I can spend an hour listing out things you will run into. You will end up severely frustrated and the animal will suffer the consequences..

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Originally Posted by KSballer

Guess I’d better make a good name then. There seems to be an awful lot of beginner info here to be telling hobby breeders to go away just because they aren’t VPI or NERD. Solid advice though. I’ll definitely consider your opinion.

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No one is saying that. What we are saying is that the herp world is very small and if you start off with pairing critters you just purchased before they have cleared QT, word will get around very quickly and you will torpedo your reputation before you hatch out your first clutch.

Before you start pairing your snakes you should have already have in place:
Incubator + high quality proportional thermostat, tested
Hatchling rack + thermostat, tested
Contact info for an exotics vet, hopefully one with 24/7 emergency hours so when you find your female is egg bound on Saturday night you don't have to wait until Monday morning to get treatment for her.

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Originally Posted by Moose84

The ONLY and I mean ONLY time I would ever do what you are thinking about doing is if:

1.) It was someone within my current network of breeders (when I say this I mean people whom I have been in their facilities and have purchased MULTIPLE animals off them) and BOTH animals came from them. I also wouldn't buy them right as the season starts either.. This screams "lets not miss out on this season.. Thats 500 dollars a snake..." Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

2.) They were properly QT'd together in the same space and were both on food for a couple months.. Buying females and males this time of the year, changing their environments completely and then pairing them would be terrible for the animal and would more than likely not produce you anything anyway.

Now with the honesty out of the way I would say 100% NO. Do you understand the environment that hatchlings have to be kept in and how finicky they can be? I would probably learn how to keep adults and sub-adults before you jump into hatchlings. You will more than likely end up killing them if you were lucky enough to get a clutch.

Facebook messenger for a vet recommendation at the last minute will more than likely be a waste of money as you will get a vet who probably knows as much or less than you do about the animal after keeping them for 3 months. Yes. I know that sounds scary but it's true.

Just curious, how big is the female you are looking to breed?(grams) When was she hatched?

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I meant a Facebook message away from finding a vet in that there are a few trustworthy local breeders I can contact and ask for a recommendation. They have been super helpful so far in telling me who to avoid and who they recommend as far as where to get hatchlings.

The female we have is around 1460g. I can’t remember when the breeder said she was hatched but said he paired her up for the first time last year but she didn’t go. I want to say she was a ‘15 hatchling. I’ll have to message him again.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

No one is saying that. What we are saying is that the herp world is very small and if you start off with pairing critters you just purchased before they have cleared QT, word will get around very quickly and you will torpedo your reputation before you hatch out your first clutch.

Before you start pairing your snakes you should have already have in place:
Incubator + high quality proportional thermostat, tested
Hatchling rack + thermostat, tested
Contact info for an exotics vet, hopefully one with 24/7 emergency hours so when you find your female is egg bound on Saturday night you don't have to wait until Monday morning to get treatment for her.

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This was what was making me apprehensive. I didn’t want to rush putting everything together in a month and potentially run into issues with no time to troubleshoot. Especially because my router crapped out on me after I built our current rack. The title even shows my hesitation lol. I was glad to be reassured that we wait. I probably would have, regardless. I do appreciate al of the advice I have gotten in this thread. It felt like everyone went for the throat at first but I understand the reason to nip something in the bud before someone puts animals at risk.

I spent an afternoon designing racks to be built that we can grow into, and we do already have an “incubator-to-be”. I feel much more comfortable waiting, learning, and acquiring space and experience.

This is my first year breeding and I've had ball pythons for 6 years and I still learn something new everyday.

What other people have said about starting small is absolutely true. My boyfriend and I kept bps for two years before moving into breeding them, and even then, we started SMALL with just six high quality, single gene animals. We bought them all as hatchlings, so it wasn't until three years later that we could even being pairing. We found a respected local breeder willing to mentor us through the process so we could also learn from his experience, and I'd recommend everyone try to do something like that if they're able to.

Interestingly, he was mentoring someone else around the same time. The other man he was mentoring went out and bought a TON of snakes, all with multiple genes, many as proven breeders so he could start right away. Four or five years down the road, and that guy has sold his collection for dirt cheap and is out of the hobby. Our mentor told us he wasn't surprised because he advised him against breeding too many snakes and/or more expensive morphs when starting out, but the guy went ahead and did it anyway. Our mentor was right. No one wanted to buy from him because he had no reputation (just a random guy suddenly appearing at our local reptile show selling expensive snakes).

On the other hand, we're still going strong and growing every year! In the time that we were raising up our snakes, we were volunteering at our local expo to meet people, and learning more and more. It is hard being patient, but it really pays off! At this point, we basically sell every clutch within a month of their hatching, and have been able to invest in some of the fancier morphs we fell in love with with we got into the hobby! I'm glad to hear you're going to wait to breed your snakes. If you can wait longer than a year, I'd recommend it! There is so much to learn in this hobby and your customers will get more from it and be better keepers themselves when you have more experience to share :-)

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Originally Posted by Gemini Pythons

What other people have said about starting small is absolutely true. My boyfriend and I kept bps for two years before moving into breeding them, and even then, we started SMALL with just six high quality, single gene animals. We bought them all as hatchlings, so it wasn't until three years later that we could even being pairing. We found a respected local breeder willing to mentor us through the process so we could also learn from his experience, and I'd recommend everyone try to do something like that if they're able to.

Interestingly, he was mentoring someone else around the same time. The other man he was mentoring went out and bought a TON of snakes, all with multiple genes, many as proven breeders so he could start right away. Four or five years down the road, and that guy has sold his collection for dirt cheap and is out of the hobby. Our mentor told us he wasn't surprised because he advised him against breeding too many snakes and/or more expensive morphs when starting out, but the guy went ahead and did it anyway. Our mentor was right. No one wanted to buy from him because he had no reputation (just a random guy suddenly appearing at our local reptile show selling expensive snakes).

On the other hand, we're still going strong and growing every year! In the time that we were raising up our snakes, we were volunteering at our local expo to meet people, and learning more and more. It is hard being patient, but it really pays off! At this point, we basically sell every clutch within a month of their hatching, and have been able to invest in some of the fancier morphs we fell in love with with we got into the hobby! I'm glad to hear you're going to wait to breed your snakes. If you can wait longer than a year, I'd recommend it! There is so much to learn in this hobby and your customers will get more from it and be better keepers themselves when you have more experience to share :-)

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Great reply!!!

If I'm being honest, I suggest people wait even longer than you did. But you certainly went about it the right way. Huge kudos to you!!!

Thanks for sharing, that story truly points out what so many of us warn others about. Diving in head first may seem fun, but in the long run it's not good for anybody involved or the animals.

Again, thanks for sharing and congrats on your success!!!

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Great reply!!!

If I'm being honest, I suggest people wait even longer than you did. But you certainly went about it the right way. Huge kudos to you!!!

Thanks for sharing, that story truly points out what so many of us warn others about. Diving in head first may seem fun, but in the long run it's not good for anybody involved or the animals.

Again, thanks for sharing and congrats on your success!!!

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Thanks so much!! :-) Honestly, without a mentor I can't imagine getting into breeding. Maybe nowadays it's a bit different with youtube being so huge, but it's still not a substitute for getting to ask someone something directly. Sadly, he has since passed away, and there are still times we wish he was still around for a second opinion. You really never stop learning in this hobby!

People jumping into breeding makes me so sad for the animals. We've met so many people who have no reptiles, but maybe just a little experience from a pet they had as a child, offering us money for our adults (who we don't sell. They're our pets first) so they can start breeding asap. We've told this story to them, had them smile and nod and agree... Only to email us a week later with pics of snakes they bought off Craigslist, asking us what morph we think they are and what babies they would get when they start pairing them. It's heartbreaking.

OP, it's good that you've asked if you guys should wait. I really hope you will! It's such a fun, rewarding hobby, but it really is one that requires a ton of patience with the waiting game.

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Originally Posted by Gemini Pythons

Thanks so much!! :-) Honestly, without a mentor I can't imagine getting into breeding. Maybe nowadays it's a bit different with youtube being so huge, but it's still not a substitute for getting to ask someone something directly. Sadly, he has since passed away, and there are still times we wish he was still around for a second opinion. You really never stop learning in this hobby!

People jumping into breeding makes me so sad for the animals. We've met so many people who have no reptiles, but maybe just a little experience from a pet they had as a child, offering us money for our adults (who we don't sell. They're our pets first) so they can start breeding asap. We've told this story to them, had them smile and nod and agree... Only to email us a week later with pics of snakes they bought off Craigslist, asking us what morph we think they are and what babies they would get when they start pairing them. It's heartbreaking.

OP, it's good that you've asked if you guys should wait. I really hope you will! It's such a fun, rewarding hobby, but it really is one that requires a ton of patience with the waiting game.

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Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry to hear of his passing. And you're right, there's no substitute for hands on learning or having someone to speak to directly who is familiar with you and your particular situation. YouTube is a fantastic resource, but people need to be really careful cause there's as much bullplop on there as there is quality info. So it's so important to cross reference and actually have someone to answer your specific questions. So I'm so sorry for your loss.
Luckily there are some fantastic breeders here on the forum that I'm sure would be happy to offer advice if you had questions. Not quite a substitute for a mentor, but helpful nonetheless.

Best of luck to you moving forward. You've come to a great place with some fantastic people and resources.