Need advice, is he ill?

This is a follow up on my thread https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...=1#post2718111

After following Deborah's advise, I went in to feed my 55g baby ball, non eater today, a live fuzzy mouse. Still no interest, and I did a brief health inspection. His cloaca seemed swollen, with the swelling also running maybe 2 cm towards his body. I gently pressed, and about 2 cm of white discharge along with some urine came out. The area inside the cloaca pushed out a bit looking like I have seen in videos of popping to determine sex. I emphasize, I only applied gentle pressure.

Is this normal, is it urates and poop, or is it illness. Was he constipated and not eating because of that, or is he ill and needs a vet?

His weight from when I got him 12 days ago hasnt dropped, although he is still tiny and hasn't eaten now for 5 weeks.

After a bit I reexamined, this looks infected...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...adde6bc8b4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b1484283a6.jpg

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Hi,

I'm a little confused ( it's probably my age :rolleyes: ) but you say you got him only 12 days ago but he hasn't eaten for 5 weeks?

How/ what was the previous owner feeding him? Snakes are creatures of habit and any change can put them off eating for a time. I think he looks in the second picture as though he may be about to pass a dookie but a full picture of the snake might help us judge his condition better.

I'm curious why the breeder would let him go as a non-eater - was he going into shed?


del

Hi Del, the place I took him in from clearly had not treated him right. When i first saw him, he was clearly stressed, and hadnt eaten in 3 weeks by their records. He us supposedly 3 months old and only 55g. I tool him in to try and help, as I believe he would have died there.

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No, the cloaca doesn't look right...maybe someone used sexing probes & did some injury & infection? I'd have him seen by herp. vet.
Poor little snake...

If there was no food intake for that long and the animal is only 55 grams which is merely the weight out of the egg I would rule out fecal matter however depending on how it feels it can be a few other things.

If the lump feels soft gas are the likely issue.

If the lump feels hard dehydration and blockage due to a large dry out piece of urate is likely the cause.

While those can be assessed and taken care of at home it should be done by one with experience, and this will set you back as it is stressful.

Other option would be an issue with the digestive track which could explain the lack of feeding.

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

If there was no food intake for that long and the animal is only 55 grams which is merely the weight out of the egg I would rule out fecal matter however depending on how it feels it can be a few other things.

If the lump feels soft gas are the likely issue.

If the lump feels hard dehydration and blockage due to a large dry out piece of urate is likely the cause.

While those can be assessed and taken care of at home it should be done by one with experience, and this will set you back as it is stressful.

Other option would be an issue with the digestive track which could explain the lack of feeding.

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how do you feel about the cloaca? it looks expressed but nothing truly alarming...right?

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

how do you feel about the cloaca? it looks expressed but nothing truly alarming...right?

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Honestly? Everything looks aweful (even the tail itself look depleated of all fat)

If I did not know better looking at the last third of this animal I would think that this is a hard belly that someone tried to massaged out and created the damage seen which includes the side of the cloaca as well.

This animal should be in the end of someone with more experience because there is more than the non feeding issue going on here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

Honestly? Everything looks aweful (even the tail itself look depleated of all fat)

If I did not know better looking at the last third of this animal I would think that this is a hard belly that someone tried to massaged out and created the damage seen which includes the side of the cloaca as well.

This animal should be in the end of someone with more experience because there is more than the non feeding issue going on here.

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omg now i see it; how obvious. holy heck that animal is not well. [emoji852]

Well, in this case, there is no one with more experience to care for this guy. I am the only one who is taking the time and putting myself fully into helping. And I will give it all it takes. We went to the herp vet yesterday, and a massive poop was stuck, 3 g poop for a 50 g snake. Poor guy was pushing with all his might while we were assisting his poop. Since his last feed with his former owner was Oct 8th, he had that poop stuck for a month. I wouldnt be eating with the equivalent of a nine pound poop in me either! Immediately afterward, he looked what I can only called relieved, and immediately started acting and looking like i am used to a ball python acting and looking. We ran a test for parasites. Vet is working closely with me to monitor and treat. I am letting him de-stress form the vet and will continue feeding protocol. Am hoping we are on a better track. Will keep everyone informed.

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Hi all. Well, after a full Chem panel, stomach wash and DNA test for crypto, dewormer, and testing for IBD....the little guy has IBD. Which absolutely sucks.

Does anyone have anything positive to say about treatment, prognosis, or care that I might be missing? Or is euthanasia about it.

:tears: Oh that's really the pits, after all the help you've tried to give him. What did the vet say? (I sure don't know of any miracle cure for ibd.)

And you have another snake, right? One that's healthy? Sure hope you've done a super job of quarantining the sick one.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

:tears: Oh that's really the pits, after all the help you've tried to give him. What did the vet say? (I sure don't know of any miracle cure for ibd.)

And you have another snake, right? One that's healthy? Sure hope you've done a super job of quarantining the sick one.

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The vet recommends euthanasia as there still is a lot unknown about IBS and they are concerned about contagion. It is really rare in snakes this young (4 months) I guess, and we caught it pretty early, but there still isn't any treatment that I have been told.

I have been extraordinarily careful with quarantine. I am OCD, and so have been super careful to the point of paranoid. We actually were more concerned it might be crypto, which even bleach doesn't kill. Soaking in pyroxide for 20+ minutes is recommended to kill crypto, so I have been Soaking the quarantine room in pyroxide (hopefully that would kill OBD virus as well),have a dedicated set of clothes for going in there, and wear surgical gloves. And now that I know I am still worried about my other little guy, but hope given my steps that transmission is unlikely. They are even on separate floors and at opposite ends of the house.

I am just incredibly bummed about the whole situation, as the last thing I want to do is euthanize the little guy. (Insert strong curse word here)

I had to put an animal down about a year ago. Easily one of the worst things I’ve ever had to do but honestly much better than watching an animal suffer in your care. Best of luck


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanyassin

The vet recommends euthanasia as there still is a lot unknown about IBS and they are concerned about contagion. It is really rare in snakes this young (4 months) I guess, and we caught it pretty early, but there still isn't any treatment that I have been told.

I have been extraordinarily careful with quarantine. I am OCD, and so have been super careful to the point of paranoid. We actually were more concerned it might be crypto, which even bleach doesn't kill. Soaking in pyroxide for 20+ minutes is recommended to kill crypto, so I have been Soaking the quarantine room in pyroxide (hopefully that would kill OBD virus as well),have a dedicated set of clothes for going in there, and wear surgical gloves. And now that I know I am still worried about my other little guy, but hope given my steps that transmission is unlikely. They are even on separate floors and at opposite ends of the house.

I am just incredibly bummed about the whole situation, as the last thing I want to do is euthanize the little guy. (Insert strong curse word here)

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I know how you feel, but euthanize is what I'd do too...with so many regrets. :( So sorry for your impending loss. At least, from what you've described, you've done a
good job protecting your other snake. I wish you much better luck in the future. I've never had to deal with crypto or IBD, & after so many years keeping snakes, I have
zero plans to add any others, so no risks unless I did something stupid (like taking my snakes to a nearby Petco, exposing them to others for one of their Reptile programs,
which I guarantee I'll never do). Life just isn't fair sometimes...poor little snake. Where did he come from again? The breeder needs to know, if they can be tracked down,
so they don't keep spreading this nightmare.

On IBD, was it just the blood test? Without testing tissue you get false positives.
Read here:
https://www.petmd.com/reptile/condit...n_body_disease

Still, having other snakes euthanizing is the safer route. Sorry about that.

Went back to your first thread, you said he was in a tank with other larger snakes, so I assume that was a pet store? I would notify them- so sad for all the snakes.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Went back to your first thread, you said he was in a tank with other larger snakes, so I assume that was a pet store? I would notify them- so sad for all the snakes.

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100% this. Owners need to know, since it can decimate their entire collections.

The vet works with the source I adopted him from initially, and Is notifying and working with them directly. I will also be contacting them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 303_enfield

On IBD, was it just the blood test? Without testing tissue you get false positives.
Read here:
https://www.petmd.com/reptile/condit...n_body_disease

Still, having other snakes euthanizing is the safer route. Sorry about that.

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I believe the IBD showed up in a genetic screening for the IBD genome, but we did so many tests I may be getting confused with the DNA test for Crypto. I will check with the vet tomorrow to confirm the testing protocol they used.

IBD typically kills BP's quickly and you have had this one for six weeks. Is it showing other symptoms of being sick, such as RI, or is fasting the only symptom? Also do you know which lab did the testing?

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Originally Posted by bcr229

IBD typically kills BP's quickly and you have had this one for six weeks. Is it showing other symptoms of being sick, such as RI, or is fasting the only symptom? Also do you know which lab did the testing?

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I can find the specific lab used. Other than eating difficulties-I have had to assist feed- weight loss and diarrhea have manifest. No RI, no other symptoms. Initially, she had a stuck poop that the vet helped move, but since then all poop has been mostly liquid for about 2 weeks. The symptoms made us think Crypto was more likely, but Crypto tested negative and the IBD test was positive.

Since you are calling the vet tomorrow anyway -ask if the fecal you obtained was tested for coccidea, giardia, and regular GI parasites as well. Coccidea is rough on young animals and can also cause some liquid stool and decreased appetite and are usually included in routine fecal tests - neither are super common in domestic snakes but it's worth a check. Most labs hold onto samples for a little while in case vets want to add on tests, so there is a chance the lab still has the sample.

Did the vet mention anything about the chem values? Most chemistries will tell you how the kidneys and liver are functioning and if there is organ damage /depending on what kind of chem was run/. Chronic diarrhea could lead to kidney stress from dehydration and when the kidneys are not happy it kills the appetite as well.

Just grasping at options that may not be IBD...I'm sure the vet checked these things too, but sometimes they see a positive test result and focus on that instead of digging deeper :/

:( this is so disappointing. I have been following this thread really hoping she would pull thru for you. I'm so sorry

I'm still hoping the vet jumped to the wrong conclusion...it's possible. Several of the previous posts (including bcr229 & Crowfingers) are at least casting some doubts.

Yesterday I sent the following questions to the vet:

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1. Doing some research, I noticed some information regarding false positives and IBD tests. Can you tell me what specific test for IBD we performed, and whether there are any other tests we could do to confirm? What are the chances of a false positive? What does the test measure?

2. I believe I was told this, but what was the nane of the lab that performed the tests?

3. In the fecal test we did 3 weeks ago, I just wanted to verify the screening- were coccidea, giardia, all regular GI parasites all screened for?

4. In the blood chemistry done, I remember that some anemia showed, but was there any indication of how the kidneys and liver were functioning?

IBD typically kills Ball P quickly, but in our case she has been with me for roughly 6 weeks. Its also reported as very rare in newborns, although the info I saw doesn't state why. I just want to be sure I am making the right choices.

Thank you very much for everything you are doing for us.

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Are there any other questions those of you following this tjink might be helpful?

Thank you everyone for all the advise.

That sounds perfect! Hopefully you get some answers back that can lead to something treatable :)

Email answer from vet:

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I got your email with the questions. I hope you are okay with me responding via email. It is sometimes easier for me to send a quick email than make a phone call during a busy day. I will answer your questions below, please let me know what other questions you have.

1- We ran a CBC and PCR. The CBC is where they look at and count the blood cells. Sometimes IBD will cause changes called Inclusion bodies (hence the name Inclusion Body disease) in the cells. This did not show any inclusions. This is not surprising in pythons, as they often do not have inclusions even when they are infected.

a. The PCR is where they test for the DNA of the actual IBD virus in her blood. This is the test that came back positive. I trust this test a lot.

b. I think you are probably reading about false positives when inclusions are found in the cells on CBC. To my knowledge there is higher risk of false negative than false positive when testing for IBD

c. I will have to check with our lab to see if they can run a type of test called virus isolation, and what sample they need for that. There are other tests we can run, but to my knowledge all other testing requires that we take a biopsy. I am concerned about her ability to survive anesthesia for biopsy.

2- We sent the blood for IBD testing to Avian and Exotic Animal Clinical Pathology Labs. This report comes directly from the lab to us.

3- Fecal. We ran a fecal floatation that should be able to catch the more common intestinal parasites (think worms), coccidia, and in many cases Giardia. It can be difficult to detect giardia in some cases. If we have high suspicion, we usually send a specific test. We can do this, but would need either a fresh sample of feces or a fresh swab from her cloaca.

4- There was no blood chemistry run. Only tests run were CBC and PCR test for IBD. CBC will not tell us about kidneys. We would need to collect another blood sample if wanting to run a chemistry panel. Also, that will be an additional cost.

a. Anemia means low red blood cells. This can happen due to chronic disease like IBD.

You are correct that IBD usually kills pythons quickly. Just because a disease usually does something, however, doesn’t mean that it always will. Yes, it is not common in newborns, but recently we have found it can spread from the mother snake to her young. The juvenile snake can develop inclusion bodies as early as 2 months of age. We can re-test if you would like.



I think it is rare in baby snakes because a lot of the time we just call these little ones ‘poor doers’. Or call it ‘failure to thrive’ and do not do the work and testing to actually get a diagnosis. I think if we look, we will find more cases.



I hope this helps. You are in a tough spot, but if she doesn’t start to gain weight, then I think we may be forced into the decision. Please let me know what other questions you have.

Best wishes

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Thoughts?

I would believe the answer to 1a and that lab has a good rep.

The reason most baby snakes don't pop with IBD is because they typically haven't had a chance to get exposed, especially when purchased directly from a breeder. Yours came from a retailer that cohabbed your baby with older animals so it likely was exposed there. It sucks but you must avoid that store in the future for the safety of your collection.

Personally I go scorched earth on stores like this, as IMO selling a vet bill is unconscionable.

Your emailed questions appear to have been very convenient (thoughtful for the vet) to reply to, & your vet's response was both helpful &
thorough...just not good news for your snake though. :( So sorry...

RIP Noodle Sept 13, 2019https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e7e3bd98da.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b413384681.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...387875966e.jpg

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So sorry to hear of your loss and unfortunate situation.

R.I.P. sweet snake.

RIP Noodlehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8a7facaef8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...16323238ff.jpg

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So sorry, rest in peace little one...:tears:

Sorry to hear this sad news

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Sooo sorry to hear! You have her the best chance though - so many people don't go to the diagnostics that you did. Glad you at least have a responsible and knowledgeable vet to work with.

Really sad, sorry for your loss.

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

Sooo sorry to hear! You have her the best chance though - so many people don't go to the diagnostics that you did. Glad you at least have a responsible and knowledgeable vet to work with.

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I agree, from what I've read, it sounds like you've at least found yourself a very good vet from the situation. Not many vets would take the time to give you such a detailed response to your questions. Most vets as well as doctors don't want to be questioned so to find one as informative and helpful as this one is a win in my book.