Getting a Kingsnake Eating

I've read the usual tips since this is a common snake problem, but I wanted to describe my situation and see if anyone has specific advice. I know it hasn’t been long enough to worry and she is by no means underweight, but my other four snakes have all been easy to feed including one that switched to f/t without a hassle, so this is really my first frustrating challenge (besides the MBK baby that suddenly died very shortly after I got her... apparently I just have bad luck with kingsnakes).

I got a 4.5yo female california kingsnake in September, whose breeder fed live out of convenience. He was confident she would also take f/t and I wasn’t too concerned since she is a kingsnake, after all. Once she had settled in (and shed), I started offering f/t once a week. She ate once, on October 5th, but apparently it was a fluke because I’ve had trouble getting any feeding response out of her otherwise. I’ve been primarily drop feeding because she gets skittish if she sees me standing there - she struck off the tongs once, but then got spooked by me closing the lid of the tub and abandoned it. Scenting mice with freshly used bedding and leaving them overnight didn't work. I didn't try braining because I know from experience that I can't do it right. I figured it was my mistake for immediately trying to switch to f/t instead of getting her comfortable accepting live from me first, so I picked up a live mouse this weekend. But again no luck… she stuck her head out of the hide and approached the mouse, tongue flicking, but never struck and eventually stared at me for a minute before going back into her hide.

I’ve kept the tub basic; aspen substrate with a hide on each side and some simple wood and leaves in the middle. The cool side is 74 and the warm side is 87 with a maximum hotspot of 90. The sides except for the front are either blacked out or against a wall, and it’s in a closet that stays closed so there’s no traffic to disturb her. She’s quite alert when I catch her outside of her hides, she’s drinking water, and when she defecated after her one meal it seemed normal. I haven’t handled her at all since mid-September.

I’m perfectly happy to take care of the rejected mouse, so I suppose I should just keep offering that once every week or maybe every two weeks and hope she eventually gives in. I was planning for quarantine to be over on December 1st and move the new snakes into their permanent cages at that point, which are bigger than the quarantine tubs and have more cluttered decor and enrichment. Since she’s proven clean of mites and doesn’t have any other symptoms of illness by now, can I go ahead and put her in the permanent cage when the time’s up even if she hasn’t eaten, in case a better environment makes her more willing to eat (or because she may simply be going off food for the winter so I gotta wait it out)?

While this is a common snake problem, it's NOT a common problem for calif. king snakes. :confusd: (I've raised, kept, & bred them in the past for a number of years.)

First, I'm sorry that you lost a hatchling MBK- it probably had nothing to do with you, or with the current problem with this snake. Hatchlings may have unknown defects
that make them more of a risk to purchase compared to older, more established snakes...that's one reason they cost less, & also, because the breeder has fewer meals &
less time "invested" in them.

Are you housing this Calif. king the same way the breeder did? (cage size etc) Have you asked? Was this snake handled much by the breeder? (it doesn't sound like it)

It's unusual for a breeder to sell a 4.5 year old snake...what reason was given? Was she ever bred? Call me a skeptic, but I'm wondering if she was sold because the seller
had undisclosed health issues with this snake.

Did the breeder brumate this snake for breeding in the past? ***Is it possible she got chilled before or after you got her, so now she expects to be brumated?***

She sounds like she was rarely handled...have you tried fresh-killed? (safer than live, and smells the same as live) She may have less confidence because she's in a new
place & this would be more familiar to her. It's still odd for a cal king not to eat though. :confusd:

Too bad you didn't have her stool checked, just in case something's going on that treatment would fix.

Any abnormal swellings on her body (even slight ones)?

What you're doing doesn't seem to be working, so unless my questions turned up something relevant, I don't think putting her in a larger cage would help or hurt, UN-
LESS (?) she is just really freaked out by her change of home, that may set her back further. No way to know for sure until you try it. The older a snake is, the more
stressful a new home is...but this is still very strange for a Cal king, IMO. All the ones I've known were chow-hounds.

I got mine as an adult as well, of unknown age. I am guessing she is older based on how dull her scales are.

While mine will eat with no problems even during a shed, around this time of year, Nibbler begins to slow down. She will take the mouse if I put it in front of her face. Otherwise, she is not active in her enclosure and spends the majority of her time sleeping. As we progress into winter, her behavior changes into where she don't want to be bothered. I can poke her with a mouse all day and she would 'shrug' it off and sometimes let out a little hiss.

So to answer your questions, imo, go ahead and switch her over to her new enclosure. However, focus more on adding hides than decor because she may just want to be left alone, at least, for the first 2 weeks and see how active she is. Unlike bp, if your snake is as big as mine (about 4.5 feet), then that extra floor space will eventually be used. Offer feeding every other week. After she settles down in her new cage, watch for any signs of her flicking her tongue a lot when you open the cage door, moving around a lot especially dusk or dawn, etc.

I would keep offering f/t at least 2 more times before trying live. Make sure to warm it up properly. If it won't take it from you, leave it on a plate and let her decide.

Both my kings would slow down drastically on feedings during the winter. My male wouldn't eat from Nov-March. I'd usually have to offer a live prey item to break his fasts. The female wouldn't totally go off feed but she'd only eat sporadically in the winter. If your girl was eating live exclusively before you got her I'd probably stick with that for the first few attempts and I'd offer food biweekly. If she refuses more than 3 times I'd start offering food once a month until she decides to eat again. You can also try offering an asf or chick and see if that entices her.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Are you housing this Calif. king the same way the breeder did? (cage size etc) Have you asked? Was this snake handled much by the breeder? (it doesn't sound like it)

It's unusual for a breeder to sell a 4.5 year old snake...what reason was given? Was she ever bred? Call me a skeptic, but I'm wondering if she was sold because the seller
had undisclosed health issues with this snake.

Did the breeder brumate this snake for breeding in the past? ***Is it possible she got chilled before or after you got her, so now she expects to be brumated?***

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I'm not sure what caging she was kept in before - I bought her at an expo and he had given me his business card, so I looked for it a couple weeks ago in order to ask that exact question. But unfortunately I seem to have lost it. I had assumed she was breeding stock that he decided not to use any more, but I definitely should have asked for more details to confirm that and figure out the reason why - I only asked whether she was eating consistently and what she was being fed on. I knew to interrogate a seller more in theory, just failed in practice (social anxiety issues around crowds, I'm trying to work on that by going to expos and holding more conversations with vendors).

Over these past couple of weeks, I’ve definitely seen this as a learning experience - gotta force myself to talk more, and DON’T lose business cards.

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She sounds like she was rarely handled...have you tried fresh-killed?

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I haven't, though I could try it with the currently-live mouse I have running around in a spare tub.

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Too bad you didn't have her stool checked, just in case something's going on that treatment would fix.

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Yep, I've kicked myself for not doing that. I guess it's another part of the learning experience.

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Any abnormal swellings on her body (even slight ones)?

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I examined her whole length at the expo and again when I weighed her upon coming home, and didn't notice anything. I haven't done another physical check like that since I didn't want to stress her out more with handling, but I can do that and see if anything has changed.

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

I got mine as an adult as well, of unknown age. I am guessing she is older based on how dull her scales are.

While mine will eat with no problems even during a shed, around this time of year, Nibbler begins to slow down. She will take the mouse if I put it in front of her face. Otherwise, she is not active in her enclosure and spends the majority of her time sleeping. As we progress into winter, her behavior changes into where she don't want to be bothered. I can poke her with a mouse all day and she would 'shrug' it off and sometimes let out a little hiss.

So to answer your questions, imo, go ahead and switch her over to her new enclosure. However, focus more on adding hides than decor because she may just want to be left alone, at least, for the first 2 weeks and see how active she is. Unlike bp, if your snake is as big as mine (about 4.5 feet), then that extra floor space will eventually be used. Offer feeding every other week. After she settles down in her new cage, watch for any signs of her flicking her tongue a lot when you open the cage door, moving around a lot especially dusk or dawn, etc.

I would keep offering f/t at least 2 more times before trying live. Make sure to warm it up properly. If it won't take it from you, leave it on a plate and let her decide.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Both my kings would slow down drastically on feedings during the winter. My male wouldn't eat from Nov-March. I'd usually have to offer a live prey item to break his fasts. The female wouldn't totally go off feed but she'd only eat sporadically in the winter. If your girl was eating live exclusively before you got her I'd probably stick with that for the first few attempts and I'd offer food biweekly. If she refuses more than 3 times I'd start offering food once a month until she decides to eat again. You can also try offering an asf or chick and see if that entices her.

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I really hope it is simply just the time of year like that. I'll offer every other week for now and try to be patient. She is in fact a bit over 4ft and is fairly active in her 36x18in quarantine tub, so I don't doubt that she'd make full use of her 48x24 permanent cage.

It takes willpower, planning & focus to ask all the right questions while at an expo...;) It's probably nothing serious, & you don't need to repeat her "physical", but
if you see her out & about, just try to be observant.

It's probably the combination of time of year (expecting to brumate) & the new surroundings that have her freaked out a little. Bear in mind that both temperatures
and the amount of daylight can tip off snakes to brumate. You might try leaving a "daylight" bulb on near her (same room) to may the days seem longer, but if she's
been brumated & bred in the past, she may be hard to fool. If she continues refusing food & is kept at warm temperatures, it might be better to just 'go with the flow'
so she doesn't lose too much weight, & gradually reduce her cage temperatures, reduce the light (cover her cage) & let her sleep a couple months. You didn't mention,
but I assume she isn't skinny? Be sure she has fresh water at all times. When I lived in the desert, I found that I had a bedroom closet on an "outside" wall that was
cool enough (near the floor) to brumate snakes...it was about 55* (under 60*) for long enough to serve the purpose, especially since I only brumated a few at most.

Just a thought: Her activity might just be that she's too warm & is looking for a cooler place to brumate.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It takes willpower, planning & focus to ask all the right questions while at an expo...;) It's probably nothing serious, & you don't need to repeat her "physical", but
if you see her out & about, just try to be observant.

It's probably the combination of time of year (expecting to brumate) & the new surroundings that have her freaked out a little. Bear in mind that both temperatures
and the amount of daylight can tip off snakes to brumate. You might try leaving a "daylight" bulb on near her (same room) to may the days seem longer, but if she's
been brumated & bred in the past, she may be hard to fool. If she continues refusing food & is kept at warm temperatures, it might be better to just 'go with the flow'
so she doesn't lose too much weight, & gradually reduce her cage temperatures, reduce the light (cover her cage) & let her sleep a couple months. You didn't mention,
but I assume she isn't skinny? Be sure she has fresh water at all times. When I lived in the desert, I found that I had a bedroom closet on an "outside" wall that was
cool enough (near the floor) to brumate snakes...it was about 55* (under 60*) for long enough to serve the purpose, especially since I only brumated a few at most.

Just a thought: Her activity might just be that she's too warm & is looking for a cooler place to brumate.

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Thank you for that info! I knew very little about brumation in captivity. I'm pretty positive that she's been using her cool side hide much more than the warm side and burrowing on the cool side too, so that could be very likely. I may not be able to get the temp quite that low, but if it looks to be the direction she's going then I can easily reduce the light and lower the warm side to hopefully make her a bit more comfortable. I'll have to test a closet once winter sets in a bit more around here.

You're right, she's not skinny at all. That's largely why I wasn't too worried yet - she doesn't look like she's missed any meals!

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Originally Posted by Werewolves

Thank you for that info! I knew very little about brumation in captivity. I'm pretty positive that she's been using her cool side hide much more than the warm side and burrowing on the cool side too, so that could be very likely. I may not be able to get the temp quite that low, but if it looks to be the direction she's going then I can easily reduce the light and lower the warm side to hopefully make her a bit more comfortable. I'll have to test a closet once winter sets in a bit more around here.

You're right, she's not skinny at all. That's largely why I wasn't too worried yet - she doesn't look like she's missed any meals!

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The main thing with brumation is being sure there is no food in their digestive tract, & from what you've said, she's pretty empty. Then you lower their cage temperatures over about 2 weeks (you'd be turning the heat down & then finally off) while keeping them in darker "shorter days". Snakes get less active the cooler they are: 60* is a rough cut-off- they can move around some at 60*. When I brumated snakes my goal was above 50* & below 60*, that was cool enough for their fertility & rest. The only thing is, that brumation also shuts down their immune system, so if a snake isn't healthy you never want to brumate them. Obviously, you cannot always tell, so what I'm saying is that there is also some risk involved...but there is also risk if your snake is starving itself, so this will have to be your decision to make, based on your best guess.

If you choose to go with brumation, bear in mind that you don't have to do it all thru the winter, if you have her enclosure well set up to fool her when she comes
out...preferably in a room that's not too cool & with enough light (to simulate the longer days of spring). What I'm saying is that since (or if) she is determined that
it's time to fast & brumate, you could just "go with the flow"....let her sleep for a month or so -she won't be counting the days ;) -before you gradually raise the
cage temperatures & gradually (over 2 weeks or so) increase the light to bring her out of her brumation. She should be wanting to eat then, as long as she doesn't
get wind of the trick you've played on her she won't know it's still winter, & she'll probably eat for you. A shorter brumation means less risk with her immune system
shut down, just in case there's a hint of anything brewing. (I know you just got this snake.)

I appreciate the guidelines! I’d definitely prefer to do a shorter period if it comes to that. If she’s still refusing food into December than I’ll evaluate the situation and decide on a plan.

I took a picture of this problem child when I peeked into the quarantine closet for my morning check, as she was out in the open:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f90c4e41ed.jpg

She sure is a beautiful snake! You'll get her figured out...:snake:

Hmmmmm....I just breezed through this thread.

I've never had a a King take any time off from eating. My Kings have always been garbage disposals year round.

I think the warm side temps are actually a bit high. I've actually had better success with cooler hot spots for Kings.

I think Bogertophis had an interesting point in questioning the seller's motives for selling an animal that age. The brumation idea is interesting as well. I've never brumated any of mine, since I don't breed, but it seems to me the current temps are plenty warm enough that if she was cooled already these temps would snap here out of it. But I may be mistaken since I have no hands on experience with brumation.

As for moving her out of quarantine... Did you say there are multiple snakes in the same closet for QT?
Did they all come from the same breeder? Were they all brought home the same day?
This I very important, as QT should be limited to one animal per room at a time. There are exemptions to every rule, but if the came seperately they should be QTd seperately. If they all arrived same day you're probably in the clear, but if you added any at a different time the clock resets to 90 days from latest addition.

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

As for moving her out of quarantine... Did you say there are multiple snakes in the same closet for QT?
Did they all come from the same breeder? Were they all brought home the same day?
This I very important, as QT should be limited to one animal per room at a time. There are exemptions to every rule, but if the came seperately they should be QTd seperately. If they all arrived same day you're probably in the clear, but if you added any at a different time the clock resets to 90 days from latest addition.

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Yes, I have a milksnake in there too that came from a different breeder but picked up at the same expo. Unfortunately, that closet's the only safe place for quarantine atm - I don't have a big place and the only other spot far enough away from the established snakes couldn't be closed off to the cats (the cats are accustomed to snakes in the bedroom and ignore those, but I figured they'd harass a new cage on the kitchen counter). The milksnake's done great, eating voraciously even when I accidentally fed her during shed the first time.

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Originally Posted by Werewolves

Yes, I have a milksnake in there too that came from a different breeder but picked up at the same expo. Unfortunately, that closet's the only safe place for quarantine atm - I don't have a big place and the only other spot far enough away from the established snakes couldn't be closed off to the cats (the cats are accustomed to snakes in the bedroom and ignore those, but I figured they'd harass a new cage on the kitchen counter). The milksnake's done great, eating voraciously even when I accidentally fed her during shed the first time.

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Ok, moving forward it will be wise to only QT one at a time. I'm not sure if you saw tttaylorrr's thread discussing her two animals passing? But it started by quarantining two animals in the same room. Just not worth the risk to the animals. Unfortunately Taylor learned the hard way, but since she was cool enough to be willing to share her story the rest of us can learn from it.

Also, just throwing it out there, but snakes and other pets don't mix. It would be in your snakes best interest to keep the cat away. My cats aren't allowed in my snake room and when snakes are out cats are locked in other rooms. It's simply not fair to the snakes.

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Ok, moving forward it will be wise to only QT one at a time. I'm not sure if you saw tttaylorrr's thread discussing her two animals passing? But it started by quarantining two animals in the same room. Just not worth the risk to the animals. Unfortunately Taylor learned the hard way, but since she was cool enough to be willing to share her story the rest of us can learn from it.

Also, just throwing it out there, but snakes and other pets don't mix. It would be in your snakes best interest to keep the cat away. My cats aren't allowed in my snake room and when snakes are out cats are locked in other rooms. It's simply not fair to the snakes.

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I'll keep that in mind, thank you. Luckily I wasn't planning on getting any more snakes for at least another year, until after I move.

As for the cats, I do lock them out of the room when I'm handling any snakes - they just sleep with me in the room at night and can't reach the cages even if they tried to because of the stand heights. I suppose the snakes could smell or see them if they look down, though.

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Originally Posted by Werewolves

I'll keep that in mind, thank you. Luckily I wasn't planning on getting any more snakes for at least another year, until after I move.

As for the cats, I do lock them out of the room when I'm handling any snakes - they just sleep with me in the room at night and can't reach the cages even if they tried to because of the stand heights. I suppose the snakes could smell or see them if they look down, though.

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Cats are pretty springy jumpers, are you sure they can't hop up onto the cages? I can recall someone's cat doing that & breaking thru the screen top with their landing.

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Originally Posted by Werewolves

I'll keep that in mind, thank you. Luckily I wasn't planning on getting any more snakes for at least another year, until after I move.

As for the cats, I do lock them out of the room when I'm handling any snakes - they just sleep with me in the room at night and can't reach the cages even if they tried to because of the stand heights. I suppose the snakes could smell or see them if they look down, though.

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Ok, sounds good. I just like to point things like that out. Since a lot of new keepers or potential keepers come here to learn, I feel it's important to help educate along the way.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Cats are pretty springy jumpers, are you sure they can't hop up onto the cages? I can recall someone's cat doing that & breaking thru the screen top with their landing.

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One cat doesn't ever jump higher than 2 feet up because she's got a stocky body and short legs, she's infamously clumsy. The more agile cat is also the smarter one who's actually trainable, and who I've had the longest - she's lived with this snake setup for most of her life and hasn't caused a problem so far. Neither of them even look over if my snakes are rustling around in their cages in the evening.

I 100% agree that it's best to keep reptiles and other pets from interacting and that's part of why I won't be getting more for a while and have plans for a snake-only room. I always want to be careful with my animals, I just know my current batch pretty well by now since they've been established for a while (besides the new snakes) and am not too worried.

(tbh, the friend that I got my BP from was letting the BP slither freely on the couch with her four cats and said they were "friends" because the BP was calm... seeing pictures of that nearly gave me a heart attack!)

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Originally Posted by Werewolves

(tbh, the friend that I got my BP from was letting the BP slither freely on the couch with her four cats and said they were "friends" because the BP was calm... seeing pictures of that nearly gave me a heart attack!)

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Uggggggh!!!! Sounds like the snake is lucky to have found you!!!! That made me cringe just reading it!!!

Oh, since we’re on the subject and you said people read this forum for education, I want to make one follow-up comment in case anybody does actually read this random thread about feeding a kingsnake someday and the multi-animal household situation happens to be relevant to them too:

It may seem weird that the cats apparently ignore the cages in the bedroom but I wouldn’t trust them with one in the kitchen. I think of it the same way as training a horse or a dog. Just because a horse may obey the rider in the arena doesn’t guarantee they’ll be the same outside of it, because there’s new things around that they may decide is more interesting than following the rules. Likewise, just because my cats do fine with snake cages in the bedroom doesn’t mean they’d be equally fine with a cage suddenly being put in the kitchen. That’s something completely different, a change to the routine that they’d want to investigate. If I did that, I’d expect to start over from scratch with getting them to ignore the kitchen cage. (I even set up the new snakes' empty permanent cages in the bedroom long before quarantine is up, to get that environmental change out of the way in advance by desensitizing them to the additions.)

So anyone with multiple other pets should keep that in mind! I think that’s pretty straightforward animal behavior that owners already understand, but it’s worth a reminder just in case.

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Originally Posted by Werewolves

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It may seem weird that the cats apparently ignore the cages in the bedroom but I wouldn’t trust them with one in the kitchen. I think of it the same way as training a horse or a dog. Just because a horse may obey the rider in the arena doesn’t guarantee they’ll be the same outside of it, because there’s new things around that they may decide is more interesting than following the rules. ...

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I'm much more of a dog keeper but I've had a few cats in the past (strays taken in), & personally I wouldn't bet on cats being good in the bedroom...I think it may have more to do with your physical presence than with whatever room it is. I know that dogs are smart enough to do things behind my back that they wouldn't DARE do when I'm home or looking...I think that applies to cats too. I'd rather you (& especially your snakes) didn't find out the hard way. (I've also
spent some years riding horses...so many distractions out side of the arena, they spook easily too when not familiar with trail riding.)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'm much more of a dog keeper but I've had a few cats in the past (strays taken in), & personally I wouldn't bet on cats being good in the bedroom...I think it may have more to do with your physical presence than with whatever room it is. I know that dogs are smart enough to do things behind my back that they wouldn't DARE do when I'm home or looking...I think that applies to cats too. I'd rather you (& especially your snakes) didn't find out the hard way. (I've also
spent some years riding horses...so many distractions out side of the arena, they spook easily too when not familiar with trail riding.)

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I appreciate your concern, I was just trying to stress that at least some precautions should always be taken in any case. I do use PVC cages so it’s not like a cat would break through the ceiling if they did jump onto it, the concern in my case would mostly be the animals just seeing/smelling each other.