hello, friends! [MITES, PAM, DEATH, and the gang]

let's cut to the chase: losing two baby beeps within hours was traumatizing. the sight; the smell; trying to understand what happened; struggling to accept i am still a novice; coming to terms with what i could control and what i could not.

for months after: every single time i came home from work and went to my room, i would mentally prepare, and take a DEEEEP breath, to find that smell again, just to try and prepare if someone else died...i expected it. EVERY. DAY. for months.

i had to step away from the forum. HAD to. social media has always been a trigger for me (in fact: this is the most personal social media presence i have on the internet besides my freelance business; i quit facebook almost a decade ago) so in hard times i just have to step away. and i have so many beautiful, wonderful friends and ROLE MODELS on here. and im so sorry to them for just disappearing. many of you kept contact and i cannot express how much it really meant to me.

i bought two baby snakes from two very small local breeders who are actually friends with one another. since we were all so chill and friendly, open, we agreed to meet at an (essentially a swap meet) event that involves local animal breeders. this works well for pet animals that need papers and shots; reptiles don't.

one of my breeders had his young son there, who was not displaying any sort of sanitary behavior as he walked around the entire building with a ball python trying to sell it to other ball vendors. the mites started on the animal bought from this breeder after i witnessed the son handle my snake i bought later.

as my two new snakes' QT was running for a day or so, i notice the mites on the paper towel. mite meltdown went into full gear with PAM for the bins and Frontline for the animals.

ive read EVERY. DAMN. THING. about mites worth reading. SINCE I LEARNED WHAT A MITE WAS. for half a decade. ive read the article which details the entire lifecycles and why you have to be diligent and relentless. ive read other poster's stories; successes and failures.

and you just assume it could never happen to you.

there's a post around here that was shared within the past year (i apologize for not linking) about PAM poisoning. when i read it i started tearing up...because it's exactly what i experienced, except no one got better.

again, i retraced every step of what we went through, and i started realizing how often i caught those babies in their water dishes; because the dishes were HUGE compared to the 6qt bins these babies were in. it took less than a week for me to notice a sliiiiight difference in behaviour (as much as you can monitor snakes in QT; mainly noticed skewed hides), then a day or so from noticing the difference in behavior to the passing (i hope that makes sense).

looking back at their QT tubs: the water dish was essentially DIRECTLY outside their hide. if they wanted to explore, they almost had no choice but to go into their water.

[YES, i kept their water dishes out for 12-16hrs after PAM applications]

and that's the only major mistake i can think of. maybe i didnt let things drying enough...there were dried drops visible on the hides when i think back, but DRIED.

add a wet snake...

my friends...my peers...anyone whose helped me: it's been so hard. i made the mistakes i made. i killed two beautiful animals who i only just named a week before they passed. because of oversight and ignorance.

ive been so weirdly terrified of being looked at some type of way from you all...for these two snakes passing in my care. honestly i hope you all understand and forgive me.

PLEASE ask any and all questions about what happened. i am more than willing to share my story.

my established crew is well. im just trying to keep my girls up in weight and maybe im a little scared to pull the breeding trigger (i dont want to do it unless i have my own place, but maybe that's an excuse). but i want my females at the established weights for a steady amount of time...

i love my babies. Corny and Wavvy too! everyone is doing okay; hoping i can get into the swing of posting pics within a few weeks...that's a goal id like to have for myself. just wanna feel normal and be a part of this community again.

SHOUTOUT to the BP fantasy football league!!! thank you guys so much for allowing me to continue to be a part of this community by proxy and in the league without judgement!!! I SUCK AT FANTASY FOOTBALL!!!

if anyone has a pic request from my crew ill do my best but it's JUST two days after feeding (ima wednesday feeder)!

thank you, BP.net

[emoji177]

Hey, I'm so very sorry for what you went thru...and it's not for anyone here to "forgive you"...I think you just need to forgive yourself...you did your best, & stuff like
this happens...it's awful, but all you can do is move on, & learn from any possible mistakes. I've missed you around here, btw. Welcome back...& hugs! None of us
gets thru life without some bad things happening, trust me, so no more beating yourself up, ok? We're all just humans here. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Hey, I'm so very sorry for what you went thru...and it's not for anyone here to "forgive you"...I think you just need to forgive yourself...you did your best, & stuff like
this happens...it's awful, but all you can do is move on, & learn from any possible mistakes. I've missed you around here, btw. Welcome back...& hugs! None of us
gets thru life without some bad things happening, trust me, so no more beating yourself up, ok? We're all just humans here. ;)

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you're 100% right. i think the last part of forgiving myself is coming back to the community and just continuing to share my (our!) journey.

and you're right again: i guess im not asking for forgiveness, rather im just hoping to come back without feeling the need to defend myself as a good keeper...

thanks for the warm welcome back, Bogie. [emoji4]

BTW, I can remember seeing & also sharing some info about the toxicity of PAM if not used carefully, but thankfully I've never had to use it. It's not only you that's
had problems using it, as I understand. It sounds like there needs to be more explicit directions on it. I've been seeing some others referring to the use of Frontline
on snakes too, but either one would be my last resort, & Frontline was never designed for snakes at all, so?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

BTW, I can remember seeing & also sharing some info about the toxicity of PAM if not used carefully, but thankfully I've never had to use it. It's not only you that's had problems using it, as I understand. It sounds like there needs to be more explicit directions on it. I've been seeing some others referring to the use of Frontline on snakes too, but either one would be my last resort, & Frontline was never designed for snakes at all, so?

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ive been PMing so many breeders and other forum members about PAM, my experience, and their thoughts on it.

PAM DOES WORK. and honestly it works the best at mite murder!

and i will never use PAM again.

i only say that because there are safer, salt-based (not alcohol-based) alternatives that are just as effective without the huge gamble with animals' health.

my good friend @WhompingWillow has recommended salt-based alternatives but off the top of my head i cannot remember the brand.

I haven't been to any expos in some years, not since I moved to this more remote location, but maybe it's just as well. Mites never used to be that prevalent at
these things...& I don't need any temptation anyway. But another way they get shared is when Petco or Petsmart hosts these "reptile rallies" & people bring in their
own pets to show & share...which would be great if it weren't for the risk of mites or other illnesses being shared along with the snakes. Mites are just miserable,
so I hope someone figures out a safer way to get rid of them.

Anyway, I don't even have to buy or breed snakes to get more...and I'm not referring to the garter snakes living in my back yard. In case you missed it, I now have
3 hatchling Florida rat snakes, compliments of my never-bred adult females that lay double clutches of "infertile" eggs every year, & this year, 3 of them hatched out
after I had the bright idea of incubating the ones that were not clearly slugs. Rather than repeat the long story, here's a link: What a crazy year I've been having. :rolleye2:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...miracle-quot-)

tttaylorrr!!!! It's so good to see your name on here!!!!

Since we've been able to keep in touch, I know you already know this, but I'll remind you just in case :D

You're one of my favorite people on the forum, and I respect the heck outta you. I happily refer to you as a friend although we've never met.

There's no need to ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness is for when you do something wrong. You've done nothing wrong. I believe it was out of your control, and an unfortunate accident. Nobody needs to forgive you. We're lucky to have you here.

If anything, we should be commending you for having the strength to share what happened and be completely open and honest. I know how hard this was on you, and I respect you even more now. Even waaaaay over here in MA, it's crystal clear you've got a HUGE heart, and I'm pretty sure the community here agrees.

It's good to see you around, T.
Stick around, we missed you!!!

Much love!!!!

Welcome back tttaylorrr :)

Sorry for your loss and bad experience. Sounds like you are way too hard on yourself. I don’t think folks here will judge you at all. We know you tried to do your very best. What’s important now is that take what you learned and move forward. I still have respect for you as a great, caring keeper.

Looking forward to your participation again.

tttaylorrr,

So glad to see you on here.

I can only imagine what you went through.

I think other users are correct, we are not here to judge. It is very brave of you to share the sad part of your post so that others can learn from it. We all make mistakes and anyone who questions your intentions is insane.

It's good to hear the crew is doing well.

Keep posting.......we miss you.

Welcome back Taylor. :salute:

tttaylorrr, As a new guy here, Thank You for posting your experience, and I'm sorry for the loss of your snakes.

That is a terrible thing to go through, but by posting your experience, I as well as others can be aware of the dangers of PAM.


I believe one of the salt based products you mentioned is this.....

https://www.chewy.com/natural-chemis...pray/dp/132115


I am going thru the "mite thing" right now, with 2 baby snakes I read about PAM and it was a great mite eliminator but the use of it could be really hard on the snakes.

I chose to use the Frontline, that Bogertophis and you mentioned, and was thinking about adding PAM if needed but will now avoid it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gocntry

tttaylorrr, As a new guy here, Thank You for posting your experience, and I'm sorry for the loss of your snakes.

That is a terrible thing to go through, but by posting your experience, I as well as others can be aware of the dangers of PAM.


I believe one of the salt based products you mentioned is this.....

https://www.chewy.com/natural-chemis...pray/dp/132115


I am going thru the "mite thing" right now, with 2 baby snakes I read about PAM and it was a great mite eliminator but the use of it could be really hard on the snakes.

I chose to use the Frontline, that Bogertophis and you mentioned, and was thinking about adding PAM if needed but will now avoid it.

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hello new friend!

yes, Natural Chemistry is the one. i hope i never have to use it, but if i ever have mites again that is what i will be using exclusively.

again: PAM works. it is the best at what it does. i still have my can of it. but knowing that there are less risky products out there, it's just not worth the risk to me anymore. honestly i keep it around as a "just in case".

im going to strongly urge you or anyone not to use two separate products. i have no evidence to support this, but it is one of my tinfoil-hat type theories as to why my snakes passed away: possibly mixing two strong products.

good luck with your snakes! you'll have much better luck than me, i know it. [emoji6]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

tttaylorrr,

So glad to see you on here.

I can only imagine what you went through.

I think other users are correct, we are not here to judge. It is very brave of you to share the sad part of your post so that others can learn from it. We all make mistakes and anyone who questions your intentions is insane.

It's good to hear the crew is doing well.

Keep posting.......we miss you.

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ugh i miss all my faves! it's so good to "see" everyone again. i just had to focus on me (and us) and not try to project some "okay-ness" on the forum. i just can't.

but im here! i love you all! i think about you all so often! this is my favorite social place on the internet!!! i will do my best to keep up with posting and being an active member of the community like i once was.

thank you, dakski. i hope yours and katie are well.

honestly part of my healing was finally realizing no one else was going to die.

i was literally traumatized. i truly believed i messed up so bad that my whole collection was going to die as well. like i said in the OP: for months after their deaths, i would walk in the door and try to smell for dead snakes. it ****** me up.

but no one else has been affected. everyone is doing just fine. Spaghetti is likely gonna shed tonight (if she hadn't already).

im okay. we're okay. so let's move on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

...
im going to strongly urge you or anyone not to use two separate products. i have no evidence to support this, but it is one of my tinfoil-hat type theories as to why my snakes passed away: possibly mixing two strong products...[emoji6]

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I very much agree with you, mostly from years of reading the posts of others whose vets "over-treated" (in MY opinion) their pets, trying to make them healthy. I'm not in any way saying not to treat, but whenever possible, do so sparingly, whether internal or external snake ailments. Don't kill the creature while eradicating the problem. With mites, barely-soapy water will drown most mites & is a harmless method, though incomplete on it's own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

With mites, barely-soapy water will drown most mites & is a harmless method, though incomplete on it's own.

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100000000000000% [emoji817]

there's the wonderful study floating around the forum which details p much everything you need to know about mite murder: mites WILL NOT survive a submerged bath for a long amount of time. snake mites are VERY susceptible to drowning.

Sorry to hear about your loss. How did you apply the PAM? I’ve used it recently on my Suriname with no issues. I sprayed the paper towel in my basement, out in the open, far away from the enclosure and waited at least 12 hours to put it in the cage. It was also the only thing I sprayed. Didn’t spray it directly into the enclosure. Didn’t spray the hides. Just the paper towel substrate. Put the water in about 5 min after the snake, once she went into her hide. Paper towel got wet and everything at times. Fed on it. No issues. Not trying to say anything so please don’t misunderstand me...just trying to further my education on this stuff in case I ever have to use it again.

A warm welcome back, tttaylorrr. I remember that I was dealing with mites on my second BP around the same time that your battle with the mites started, and it actually gave me comfort and reassurance to see your can-do approach to such a stressful thing, since I have a lot of respect for the kindness and readiness to help that you've always exhibited in your posts. Since I took a similar approach (PAM for the enclosures, a spray for the snake itself - although I used the Natural Chemistry salt solution spray instead of Frontline) and things turned out okay, it was heartbreaking to read about what had happened with your two little ones.

I genuinely believe that you were not at fault for following several mainstay mite treatment guidelines to a T, but am glad that you gave yourself the ample time needed to heal from your grief and the feelings of guilt - often disproportionate, and yet unavoidable - that came attached with it. It's wonderful to hear that all your current snakes are doing well, and that speaks for itself as a testament to your dedication to them. It's great to have you back.

it was my husband that recently ppsted about the PAM poisoning. i felt horrible and responsible for quite some time as i was the one that put our baby IJs in those tubs that had recently been sprayed with PAM. thankfully the girl that was poisoned pulled thru and is absolutely fine now.
it can happen to anyone and i'm sorry you had a horrible outcome. i am glad you are back though!

Condolences to you. I agree with one of your theories...I will venture to say that it was somehow a combination of the toxins that did it, not just the PAM, by combined with frontline. Also, how much PAM are we talking?!

Advice to readers: A little goes a long way, so I’d always be conservative with any kind of chemical for your reptiles. Better too little than too much!


Kaos Balls

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

Also, how much PAM are we talking?!

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two applications, and i admit it was applied thoroughly. i can only assume i used too much due to ignorance, but i can't say that's not another likely factor in my situation.

glad to see you doing well!

Huggggs girl. I’m so sorry for the loss of your two little ones.

When I lost my Bonsai I shredded myself with guilt and despair over possible mistakes. Guilt should be reserved for those who do nothing to help their animals. You did everything you could based on your research and knowledge. That’s the best any mere human can do.

Be kind to yourself and remember this community needs you. As does Fantasy Football... I gotta beat SOMEBODY this season for crying out loud. ;)