My little headache...

This is the little girl in the thread about my fussy eater. Doing an early morning cage cleaning and watering today as I couldn't sleep she was out and about and almost jumped out of her tub when I opened it. Very friendly and doesn't act at all stressed. She was in go go go mode hence the blurry head and my hand in this picture.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...e_25_thumb.jpg

Yes, she is thin. She was worse before she ate for me recently but she has put on weight and size and has had 4 good sheds in that time. So I'll be darned if I can figure it out.

I hope she takes to the eating thing better.

Paul

How long have you had this animal and what are you attempting to feed it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

How long have you had this animal and what are you attempting to feed it?

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https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...is-Ball-Python

All you ever wanted and/or needed to know I think.

Paul

Have you tried live mice? I didn't see what you were keeping her in either.. Just curious. Rack or tank?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

Have you tried live mice? I didn't see what you were keeping her in either.. Just curious. Rack or tank?

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She's in a rack, I have offered Mice, Rats and ASF all three. She's eaten a few rats, and most recently a lone ASF. She's on Repti-Chip in a rack like all the rest of my snakes. I've changed her substrate, her hide, her water bowl, I've moved her to a larger tub, and a smaller tub. She gets offered food once a week and eats when she wants to in all appearances.

If I find something that works other than "random chance" I'll stick to it, but all of her successful offerings so far have had nothing in common. ^_^

Paul

It's definitely thin for a female, but is it possible it's male? It's shape reminds me more of my males and also it's behavior. When my males want to breed, that's all they care about, they constantly are moving and wanting to come out and explore but could care less about eating. You'll still want to try and get it to eat because it's still not healthy for males to lose weight but in my experience, it is more common for them to act like what you're describing.

Wow.. You really have tried it all. I read an article from Justin Kolbylka a while back and he was advocating moving the snakes around in the racks that were problem feeders. I had one snake that was strictly on mice and I moved him around in the rack random times over a few weeks. Sure as hell that snake took a rat like 3 weeks later and has been on them ever since.. I was kinda surprised. But hey.. It worked. Sounds like you have done this already though by switching her around in different tubs, substrate etc.. I'm not trying to throw salt at an open wound here but I have NEVER had a snake refuse a live mouse.. That has always been my fall back.. hahahaha

https://jkrballstreetjournal.com/201...-eating-again/

She is VERY thin, she got here in April at 3 or so months out of egg and in the 7 months I've had her has taken 4 or 5 meals. She was sold to me by a reputable breeder as a female and I have been in touch with him about her, but she's just been a stubborn ass to me when she was pounding F/T rats for him. I do not doubt this person AT ALL.

I have tried everything, and I'd happily give a lot to get her to eating weekly. No matter what it was, even a mouse a week would be better than what she's had recently.

I do greatly appreciate the input, but between the brains on the forums and my friends who are breeders, we can't get much anywhere. Have even resorted to some of the old school tricks they used to get WC babies eating. Live male mouse in a brown paper bag with the snake? Nope...

Paul

I’m presuming you feed in the evenings, dim lighting , wait until it’s safe and secure under a hide then dangle the warm offering in front of the hide ??

The hairdryer trick is a given and I won’t mention it here ;)


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I’m presuming you feed in the evenings, dim lighting , wait until it’s safe and secure under a hide then dangle the warm offering in front of the hide ??

The hairdryer trick is a given and I won’t mention it here ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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He's WAY past all of this... hahaha..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbenner

She is VERY thin, she got here in April at 3 or so months out of egg and in the 7 months I've had her has taken 4 or 5 meals. She was sold to me by a reputable breeder as a female and I have been in touch with him about her, but she's just been a stubborn ass to me when she was pounding F/T rats for him. I do not doubt this person AT ALL.

I have tried everything, and I'd happily give a lot to get her to eating weekly. No matter what it was, even a mouse a week would be better than what she's had recently.

I do greatly appreciate the input, but between the brains on the forums and my friends who are breeders, we can't get much anywhere. Have even resorted to some of the old school tricks they used to get WC babies eating. Live male mouse in a brown paper bag with the snake? Nope...

Paul

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It's terribly frustrating to be where you are.. Especially given the other animals are in the exact same environment and feeding fine.. I feel for ya man.. This is one of the times that people come to the forum and are truly in need of help and have exhausted pretty much all of their options... i am used to hearing "I have a 100 gram snake in an 80 gallon aquarium and it won't eat..."

I have heard of people re-homing the animal temporarily to see if another environment all together would work. Problem with that is a snake off food is always a red flag to people with large collections... I'm not implying the animal is sick at all.. Sounds like she is just very high maintenance..

The only "red flag" to me is that it's a fancy morph, & with all the selective breeding for aberrant appearances, sometimes other abnormalities also occur that just
don't favor survival. Who knows what it could be or if it could be helped...many things could influence appetite, & snakes are so stoic. :confusd:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

The only "red flag" to me is that it's a fancy morph, & with all the selective breeding for aberrant appearances, sometimes other abnormalities also occur that just
don't favor survival. Who knows what it could be or if it could be helped...many things could influence appetite, & snakes are so stoic. :confusd:

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The gal that gives voice to my deepest concern. That somewhere along the line being highly inbred to achieve the genetic combination she is broke something in her eating response. I am hoping, again, that it works out, but I am just very worried about her overall.

Time will tell, I will not give up on her and will continue as I have continued. Hoping one day she just decides that food is a good thing and wants to plow rats like they're going out of style.

Paul

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbenner

The gal that gives voice to my deepest concern. That somewhere along the line being highly inbred to achieve the genetic combination she is broke something in her eating response. I am hoping, again, that it works out, but I am just very worried about her overall.

Time will tell, I will not give up on her and will continue as I have continued. Hoping one day she just decides that food is a good thing and wants to plow rats like they're going out of style.

Paul

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Yeah, I hope that's not it.

One other thing you could try...is to give properly-dosed Flagyl (metronidazole), as it tends to stimulate the appetite in snakes & seems pretty safe. In fact, it might even
be the right treatment for the source of her not feeling well enough to eat. I have used it before (not in very long time) & had no adverse problems, it did the job, actually.
It's also sold in pet stores OTC for tropical fish (aka "Fish Zole". Quick search > > >

Metronidazole (Flagyl). Used on intestinal flagellates and for amoebiasis at a dose of 100-200 mg/kg PO, repeated in 2 weeks. A dose of 40-50 mg/kg PO should be used in colubrid snakes since there have been some problems with the higher doses in some species. ... Dose is 5-8 mg/kg IM or PO repeated in 2 weeks.

Reptile Formulary - ACVC2001 - VIN

https://www.vin.com › apputil › content › defaultadv1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Yeah, I hope that's not it.

One other thing you could try...is to give properly-dosed Flagyl (metronidazole), as it tends to stimulate the appetite in snakes & seems pretty safe. In fact, it might even
be the right treatment for the source of her not feeling well enough to eat. I have used it before (not in very long time) & had no adverse problems, it did the job, actually.
It's also sold in pet stores OTC for tropical fish (aka "Fish Zole". Quick search > > >

Metronidazole (Flagyl). Used on intestinal flagellates and for amoebiasis at a dose of 100-200 mg/kg PO, repeated in 2 weeks. A dose of 40-50 mg/kg PO should be used in colubrid snakes since there have been some problems with the higher doses in some species. ... Dose is 5-8 mg/kg IM or PO repeated in 2 weeks.

Reptile Formulary - ACVC2001 - VIN


https://www.vin.com › apputil › content › defaultadv1

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Desperate times, desperate measures.

If she hasn't taken another meal in the next 30 days we will go this route for sure. Thank you for the thought.

Paul

And I'm not trying to play "veterinarian" here, so by all means, don't take my word for it, you can always check with your vet on this. ^ ^ ^

Good luck, I hope SOMETHING works! Snakes with no appetite are so frustrating...& even worse when you've invested a lot for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

He's WAY past all of this... hahaha..

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Meaning you’ve tried everything I mentioned at once ?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbenner

The gal that gives voice to my deepest concern. That somewhere along the line being highly inbred to achieve the genetic combination she is broke something in her eating response. I am hoping, again, that it works out, but I am just very worried about her overall.

Time will tell, I will not give up on her and will continue as I have continued. Hoping one day she just decides that food is a good thing and wants to plow rats like they're going out of style.

Paul

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What is the morph? I'm not sure it was mentioned.. Just noted that the animal was "expensive.."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Meaning you’ve tried everything I mentioned at once ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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If you are asking me if I do all that "dim lighting, stand on one foot, make sure they are in a hide, make sure it's past 6:30 EST, blast it with a hair dryer while doing a coordinated zombie dance with a dead frozen thawed rodent..? No.. I don't. I have found that after keeping multiple animals and making my own mistakes, if I place the animal in the best environment for THEIR species I don't need to do all that.

What I was referring to is that this gentleman has tried everything to include LIVE PREY.. If the animal doesn't eat live prey after all of the spot on husbandry changes he made then there is a slight problem... Blasting a FT rodent with a hair dryer will never, ever be as good as a live rat, mouse or ASF...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

And I'm not trying to play "veterinarian" here, so by all means, don't take my word for it, you can always check with your vet on this. ^ ^ ^

Good luck, I hope SOMETHING works! Snakes with no appetite are so frustrating...& even worse when you've invested a lot for them.

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Taken under advisement obviously. I'm not going to go off half-cocked with any animal, a $15 normal or this little girl either one...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Meaning you’ve tried everything I mentioned at once ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Yes sir, have tried everything listed at least twice over the course of weekly feedings during 7 months with me here. She's only ever taken live for me at this point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

What is the morph? I'm not sure it was mentioned.. Just noted that the animal was "expensive.."

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Super Banana Black Pastel (Pos. Pastel) het Hypo (Ghost/Orange Ghost Line)

Best,

Paul

PS - I figured out multi-quote! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

If you are asking me if I do all that "dim lighting, stand on one foot, make sure they are in a hide, make sure it's past 6:30 EST, blast it with a hair dryer while doing a coordinated zombie dance with a dead frozen thawed rodent..? No.. I don't. I have found that after keeping multiple animals and making my own mistakes, if I place the animal in the best environment for THEIR species I don't need to do all that.

What I was referring to is that this gentleman has tried everything to include LIVE PREY.. If the animal doesn't eat live prey after all of the spot on husbandry changes he made then there is a slight problem... Blasting a FT rodent with a hair dryer will never, ever be as good as a live rat, mouse or ASF...

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Thing is SOME will only strike /eat WARM food , SOME will only strike from within their hides , SOME will only eat in dim lighting.

My point was really that THAT particular method has worked amazingly well for my Royals down the years and it isn’t a silly little Harry Potter style magic spell ... also even ‘my’ method will have to be repeated 5 , 6 even 7 times before they take the bait .


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Thing is SOME will only strike /eat WARM food , SOME will only strike from within their hides , SOME will only eat in dim lighting.

My point was really that THAT particular method has worked amazingly well for my Royals down the years and it isn’t a silly little Harry Potter style magic spell ... also even ‘my’ method will have to be repeated 5 , 6 even 7 times before they take the bait .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Unfortunately some people don't have 5, 6 or 7 weeks to continue offering FT items to snakes that will more than likely not eat them. I'm glad that worked for you, I truly am.. However, I will never force any of my collection to eat FT... When they are off food for a certain amount of time I try live.. That simple.. I completely understand that people want to feed frozen thawed and there is 45 methods to thawing them out and dancing them around I get it... At the end of the day everyone needs to understand that when buying a snake at some point you have to be willing and able to feed it live prey... Simple as that.. I don't believe in making an animal go weeks or months and once a week shoving a dead rat in their face that was blown probably too hot with a hair dryer.. Sorry, just my two cents...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

If you are asking me if I do all that "dim lighting, stand on one foot, make sure they are in a hide, make sure it's past 6:30 EST, blast it with a hair dryer while doing a coordinated zombie dance with a dead frozen thawed rodent..? No.. I don't. I have found that after keeping multiple animals and making my own mistakes, if I place the animal in the best environment for THEIR species I don't need to do all that.

What I was referring to is that this gentleman has tried everything to include LIVE PREY.. If the animal doesn't eat live prey after all of the spot on husbandry changes he made then there is a slight problem... Blasting a FT rodent with a hair dryer will never, ever be as good as a live rat, mouse or ASF...

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I agree Moose84 especially with a live mouse which usually enticing to most all BP's.

To OP is this snake called Truffle. I seen a pic of Truffle and at the end of the tail it looks just kind of weird to me, does anyone else notice that dent or squished spot on a pic of Truffle? Might not even be the same snake and I might be totally wrong on my observation. But just was wondering about that and if that could be part of the problem. Here is the pic. Hopefully--->
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...-april2019.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ballpythonsrock2

I agree Moose84 especially with a live mouse which usually enticing to most all BP's.

To OP is this snake called Truffle. I seen a pic of Truffle and at the end of the tail it looks just kind of weird to me, does anyone else notice that dent or squished spot on a pic of Truffle? Might not even be the same snake and I might be totally wrong on my observation. But just was wondering about that and if that could be part of the problem. Here is the pic. Hopefully--->
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...-april2019.jpg

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I don't think this is the same animal.. The picture he posted here doesn't show a kinked looking tail with the snake spread out. I agree that animal does look kinked in the picture..

After a bit of research it is the same animal.. The picture uploaded this morning definitely didn't look kinked like that. Interesting..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

Unfortunately some people don't have 5, 6 or 7 weeks to continue offering FT items to snakes that will more than likely not eat them. I'm glad that worked for you, I truly am.. However, I will never force any of my collection to eat FT... When they are off food for a certain amount of time I try live.. That simple.. I completely understand that people want to feed frozen thawed and there is 45 methods to thawing them out and dancing them around I get it... At the end of the day everyone needs to understand that when buying a snake at some point you have to be willing and able to feed it live prey... Simple as that.. I don't believe in making an animal go weeks or months and once a week shoving a dead rat in their face that was blown probably too hot with a hair dryer.. Sorry, just my two cents...

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It’s not referring to 6 or 7 WEEKS !!
:)

It means try the method 6 or 7 times in as many minutes .

So if the snake doesn’t strike the first time you have to reheat the mouse/rat with the hairdryer and offer the food instantly again ... then repeat as many times as you can be bothered . Too many offer a cool mouse ONCE then just give it up as a bad job . That’s why I always emphasise the method so carefully.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

It’s not referring to 6 or 7 WEEKS !!
:)

It means try the method 6 or 7 times in as many minutes .

So if the snake doesn’t strike the first time you have to reheat the mouse/rat with the hairdryer and offer the food instantly again ... then repeat as many times as you can be bothered . Too many offer a cool mouse ONCE then just give it up as a bad job . That’s why I always emphasise the method so carefully.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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We did this dance for almost 2 months straight, 5 or 6 times per night, with the hair dryer and/or heat tape for re-heats. Never took F/T for me. Shortly there after she took a live rat crawler for me. Haven't gone back to F/T or PK yet as she won't eat live consistently. You can stop beating this horse, I've tried.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

After a bit of research it is the same animal.. The picture uploaded this morning definitely didn't look kinked like that. Interesting..

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Aye,

That is the same snake. She's a little bigger. If she had any physically apparent defects I 1) wouldn't have bought her or 2) wouldn't have spent what I spent on her.

She was fresh from shipping bag in that picture and slightly curled. She's not got a kink or anything of the like. No abnormalities that I can find physically.

But yes, same snake.

Paul

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pbenner

We did this dance for almost 2 months straight, 5 or 6 times per night, with the hair dryer and/or heat tape for re-heats. Never took F/T for me. Shortly there after she took a live rat crawler for me. Haven't gone back to F/T or PK yet as she won't eat live consistently. You can stop beating this horse, I've tried.



Aye,

That is the same snake. She's a little bigger. If she had any physically apparent defects I 1) wouldn't have bought her or 2) wouldn't have spent what I spent on her.

She was fresh from shipping bag in that picture and slightly curled. She's not got a kink or anything of the like. No abnormalities that I can find physically.

But yes, same snake.

Paul

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It’s true there’s no perfect way ... of course here in the uk LIVE feeding is pretty much a no no ..


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

It’s true there’s no perfect way ... of course here in the uk LIVE feeding is pretty much a no no ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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So what do you do when the animal won't eat FT?? I have had snakes that will NOT eat FT.. Period, end of story.. Do you just let the animal die?? I do my due diligence in trying to get animals onto FT but there comes a time where the animal suffers because it doesn't know any better... Just seems cruel to me..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

It’s true there’s no perfect way ... of course here in the uk LIVE feeding is pretty much a no no ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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There are a lot of things that are illegal or that you need a permit for that we enjoy without restriction here. I breed my own rats, so I could feed live without anyone but myself knowing.

The majority of my snakes take PK or F/T prey readily enough. More often we go for PK as I cull from my feeder bins and then do the feedings.

Paul

To OP: just want to say you have my sympathy. I completely understand your frustration but I was fortunate and with the help of this forum, got my bp to eat when he was little. Now as an adult, he started that fasting trend again (he stopped eating for 6 months, ate again, then in late Oct started again) but the husbandry is on point, his tub has been downsized, prey item is the same size or tried mice, and left completely alone and still he would rather do anything but eat. That's fine, whatever, it gets annoying though because I love feeding my snakes.

I guess some animals are fine living life on the edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

So what do you do when the animal won't eat FT?? I have had snakes that will NOT eat FT.. Period, end of story.. Do you just let the animal die?? I do my due diligence in trying to get animals onto FT but there comes a time where the animal suffers because it doesn't know any better... Just seems cruel to me..

---

Well so far it’s not happened and so I can’t comment .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

So what do you do when the animal won't eat FT?? I have had snakes that will NOT eat FT.. Period, end of story.. Do you just let the animal die?? I do my due diligence in trying to get animals onto FT but there comes a time where the animal suffers because it doesn't know any better... Just seems cruel to me..

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I'll say it again, the hunger ALWAYS wins in the end. I wouldn't let an animal die but I have yet to see a healthy animal starve itself to death when food was available. Sustenance is sustenance. A healthy human will eat a f/t rat if they get hungry enough. I've had a few snakes that were stubborn eaters when I got them and have had a couple of them take extended food breaks even when I did feed live. I'm probably in the minority but I don't worry when my snakes don't eat anymore. If I think the animal is sick I take it to the vet but as long as they're not losing significant weight I just keep offering food until they decide they want to eat again. If they get to 3-4 months without food I might try a live feeder. I have 11 snakes and they all eat f/t even though many of them started out on live prey. I guess there are animals that will never take f/t but I believe they're extremely rare. Most animals would rather eat anything than to painfully starve to death. Just my 2 cents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moose84

So what do you do when the animal won't eat FT?? I have had snakes that will NOT eat FT.. Period, end of story.. Do you just let the animal die?? I do my due diligence in trying to get animals onto FT but there comes a time where the animal suffers because it doesn't know any better... Just seems cruel to me..

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I agree...I've known some very stubborn snakes too, & when they lose noticeable weight & energy they aren't going to suddenly get an appetite back, any more than a
hospital patient would without an I.V. Snakes are "wild" animals that rely on instincts...& those instincts know what they're looking for- live prey. Most can be switched
& that's always best, but some will just go downhill & so does their immune system...then you have not only a starved snake, but a sick one. :( I'm all for kindness to
rodents, but the snakes are my pets & their needs come first. I think that's just being realistic.

I do understand that we don't all operate under the same set of rules about feeding live...I guess in that case, I'd do a tube-feed, but it's not the same thing as triggering
a snake's natural instincts with that first live meal. I've raised quite a few hatchlings & neonates of many kinds, including 4 BPs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

To OP: just want to say you have my sympathy. I completely understand your frustration but I was fortunate and with the help of this forum, got my bp to eat when he was little. Now as an adult, he started that fasting trend again (he stopped eating for 6 months, ate again, then in late Oct started again) but the husbandry is on point, his tub has been downsized, prey item is the same size or tried mice, and left completely alone and still he would rather do anything but eat. That's fine, whatever, it gets annoying though because I love feeding my snakes.

I guess some animals are fine living life on the edge.

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Hi bud,

Thank you! Every time she has me ready to do something more drastic, she finally eats something. The other thread has some information on her, but she last ate an ASF about 2 weeks ago.

I have offered her another rat crawler, but she did not want that, and I don't have another ASF currently as a feeder. I'll have one soon.

Paul

I'm reluctant to advise this ( it is not a nutritional meal long term ) but have you tried day old chicks?

In a smaller snake you usually have to break it up into either legs or heads ( neither of which is a great meal nutritionally ) but nearly all of mine love the occasional chick when offered as a bit of variety.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

I'm reluctant to advise this ( it is not a nutritional meal long term ) but have you tried day old chicks?

In a smaller snake you usually have to break it up into either legs or heads ( neither of which is a great meal nutritionally ) but nearly all of mine love the occasional chick when offered as a bit of variety.

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Yes chicks are fabulous ‘treats’ or alternatives.. a couple of my Royals will have a meal and if they’re still sniffing around I quickly thaw a couple of chicks and they wolf them down ..

I also had huge Male Pied that was on an extensive fast (15 months !) and he was kickstarted when I recently left a couple of chick heads on a dish in his viv .... I tried every trick on the book ( yes even the usually fabulous hairdryer trick lol ) but this lad refused everything including mice /rats / gerbils / guinea pigs / hamsters and even flamin’ multimates !

Two chick heads and then he ate 4 whole chicks !!


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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

I'm reluctant to advise this ( it is not a nutritional meal long term ) but have you tried day old chicks?

In a smaller snake you usually have to break it up into either legs or heads ( neither of which is a great meal nutritionally ) but nearly all of mine love the occasional chick when offered as a bit of variety.

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I have not. There are not many active poultry around me at the moment, so finding them could be difficult, but I'll put out feelers.

Thank you for this suggestion. I'll try one, but will not be offering them weekly for sure.

Paul