Adelita - 2019 Hypo Sonoran

My trip to the expo today wound up going a bit differently than I expected.

The original plan was to pick up some hardware, meet some adult boas, talk to Vin Russo the size and temperament of different localities, and mull over those last two a bit. I did manage to find all the hardware I wanted, see some big boas, and have a very informative (and enjoyable) conversation with Vin. When all was said and done, that fourth part of my plan wound up changing:

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Meet Adelita, my 2019 hypo Sonoran (het leopard) by Cutting Edge Herp. For a baby boa, she's actually quite agreeable and well-mannered.

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Here's to a few good decades, girl.

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Congratulations, she's stunning, won't be too big either

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Gorgeous. Glad you found a boa you relate with!

Mazel Tov and wishing you a long and happy life together.

Thanks guys!

I'm happy to say that her first 24 hours at home went well. She spent most of yesterday checking out her cage, basking under the heat projector, and climbing up the thermostat probe's cord. That cord was probably her favorite thing until this morning - not the three hides I bought her, not her actual basking spot, the cord. As soon as she settles in a bit more, I'm gonna have to get her some climbing structures and find a better way to anchor that thing to the wall! She seems to have since overcome her cord fixation and is now using more of her tank and thermoregulating well. I also noticed a few drops of water on her chin that seems to indicate that she found one of her water bowls.

The only time she's even gotten hissy with me so far was when I accidentally startled her out of a nap, which I can't really blame her for. I just backed off a little, watched her from a respectful distance, and left when she eventually calmed down. She's been a bit wary after that, but it could also just be her adjusting. All in all, though, I'd say it was a good first day.

I'd let her be for a bit. If temps and humidity are stable, leave her alone until she's ready to eat, and then leave her alone again after feeding unless you have to clean her tank. I'd let her be for a week or two and a couple feedings. Then you can start short and gentle handling sessions.

If I didn't mention earlier, it's a good idea to hook train boas. They love food and you do not want to get mistaken.

I can post the link to a hook training thread I have if you want.

Again, good luck with the beauty and I wouldn't sweat the hiss at all.

Thanks for the seasoned advice as always, dakski.

Her temps and humidity seem stable, though I am a bit worried whether the cool side of her cage/tank is cool enough. The digital thermometer I have on that side has been reading around 77-79 degrees, but I have reason to believe it's a bit off. When my heating system was coming out of the night drop this morning, the thermometer was reading 77 degrees on the cool side, while the Herpstat probe on her basking spot (which I trust a great deal more) was reading 75 degrees (I've read a night drop to 75 is good/fine for boas; correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not sure if this is a function of differences between the probes (the digital thermometer's is covered in black plastic, the Herpstat's is not) or if there's something wiggy going on. I may try a new digital thermometer or keep an old-school mercury thermometer on the outside of her tank to monitor ambient temps in the room. In the interim, a new infrared thermometer is due to arrive soon, so maybe some surface temps will be enlightening.

The plan is to keep handling to a minimum for the first two weeks or so (outside of the necessary feeding and water changes) and to start tap training right away. The hissy fit was a function of me looking in on her through the glass of her tank - I'd be pretty startled too if I woke up to a kaiju-size face staring at me. I'm blocking three sides of her tank tomorrow with some re-purposed paper bags to help her feel more secure. If she still seems tense I'll make a blind for the front as well.

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Originally Posted by WrongPython

Thanks for the seasoned advice as always, dakski.

Her temps and humidity seem stable, though I am a bit worried whether the cool side of her cage/tank is cool enough. The digital thermometer I have on that side has been reading around 77-79 degrees, but I have reason to believe it's a bit off. When my heating system was coming out of the night drop this morning, the thermometer was reading 77 degrees on the cool side, while the Herpstat probe on her basking spot (which I trust a great deal more) was reading 75 degrees (I've read a night drop to 75 is good/fine for boas; correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not sure if this is a function of differences between the probes (the digital thermometer's is covered in black plastic, the Herpstat's is not) or if there's something wiggy going on. I may try a new digital thermometer or keep an old-school mercury thermometer on the outside of her tank to monitor ambient temps in the room. In the interim, a new infrared thermometer is due to arrive soon, so maybe some surface temps will be enlightening.

The plan is to keep handling to a minimum for the first two weeks or so (outside of the necessary feeding and water changes) and to start tap training right away. The hissy fit was a function of me looking in on her through the glass of her tank - I'd be pretty startled too if I woke up to a kaiju-size face staring at me. I'm blocking three sides of her tank tomorrow with some re-purposed paper bags to help her feel more secure. If she still seems tense I'll make a blind for the front as well.

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I would rely on the IR temp gun on the way. That will give you surface temps, which is what you want. Air temps aren't as relevant.

Air temps can be very different. Under Behira's RHP and above her heat tape (same side, same thermostat), the probe (positioned between them) reads 84F this time of year (73F in the reptile area), but her hot spot is about 88F.

I keep temps pretty constant, but a night drop is okay. Temps should never get below about 76F and there should always be access to a hot spot of at least 86F. I aim for 86-88F on both Behira's (BI) and Feliz's (BCC) hot spots. Above 90F they avoid them most of the time, and below 86F it won't help too much with digestion.

Also, for what's worth, my hot spot in my boa tanks (as stated above) is about 88F, with an 82-84F middle/ambient temp, and a 78-80F cool side. Humidity is always 50-55%+ (winter drops are okay to about 55% as long as you up humidity for sheds) and in the summer, closer to 60-65%. BI's are less susceptible to RI's and other humidity related issues than BCC, but still, humidity is important. Too much or too little, and the former with low temps, is bad. When young, they can be more prone to issues as well.

I hear you on her getting spooked. Cover the sides as you said and that should help her get comfy quicker. Once settled in, Boas are rarely shy. The issue I have with Behira and Feliz is striking the front of the tank (clear doors) wanting food. I have a drape for Behira and will have one for Feliz by tomorrow night. You might need a front cover at some point, but not for what you originally thought :).

Keep us posted and keep up the good work.

Really cute little boa...love her colors. :gj:

Adelita's settling in well and the IR temp gun arrived tonight. The floor of the cool side was ~79 degrees, the middle zone was ~83 degrees, and her basking spot was ~86-87 degrees under the heat projector (in 86 degree night "drop" mode - I have it set to 88 degrees during the day). Based on the ambient temps in the room, it seems as though the digital thermometer is reasonably accurate. We had a bit of a heat wave by me today and the ambient temp in Adelita's room rose to around 80 degrees when the AC unit had a bit of trouble keeping up. Not that she minded- she was actually trying to climb up the digital thermometer's cord for the first time since her first day home. She definitely seems to like temps in the ranges you mentioned, dakski. Her viv is actually maintaining a relatively stable temperature gradient in that range with a humidity of 62-67%, so I'm quite happy with where things are now. I may have to keep an eye on that humidity, though.

My big debate right now is when to offer her her first meal with me. Her last meal was a live hopper mouse on 2 September, so it's getting close to feeding time for her. I've only been able to get frozen hopper mice, though, and I haven't been able to find anyone with live hoppers around me. I'm a bit worried that I'd be asking too much of her for first meal home to be her transition to f/t. I'm also not sure if I want to try and feed her Friday (her fifth day home and possibly too soon), Sunday night (after being home for a week), or Monday morning (two weeks after her last meal - a bit long for a baby boa). She seems to be settling in and possibly ready for a feeding attempt on Friday, but I'm not sure how to judge her "readiness."

She will probably take F/T. If you want to feed f/t long term, try it. Feliz ate stunned mice and switched in about 5 seconds.

Friday should be fine. If she refuses. Wait at least 4 days. I doubt she will though.

Good luck.

I'd probably go with Sunday, but I think Friday is probably OK too, as is offering f/t. The worst she can do is say "no thanks", but she'll probably take it- and
especially if you wait a couple extra days for a bit more hunger to kick in, plus a little more time to "settle in".

Operation: Dinner Time was a success! My girl made me work for it a bit, though.

I ultimately decided to wait until today to offer Adelita her first meal home as she still seemed a bit reserved through Thursday. She was quite perplexed by the f/t hopper the first time I offered it - a lot of tongue flicking, a bit of nudging, but ultimately she turned her nose up from it. No dice. Took a reading of her hopper with the IR temp gun and found that its surface cooled to room temp much more quickly than I expected. I decided to go for Round Two and warmed the hopper back up to a hair over 100 degrees F, patted it dry again, and offered it to her a second time. She was a bit offended at first when I waved the hopper a bit closer to her face, but then she took a sniff. Rapid tongue flipping ensued. Then - BAM! - she took her first meal home and switched over to f/t all in one go. I hung back a bit, made sure everything went down the hatch, and then left the room to give her some privacy.

Now to make sure that she has a nice, stress-free 48 hours to digest her meal. Hopefully she doesn't need any more cajoling next week when I introduce the multivitamin + Ca/D3 supplements. :gj:

Adelita got a little enclosure renovation last night - her humidity was only holding in the mid-50's despite twice-daily mistings, so I bumped her up to EcoEarth a bit early. She also had her first real handling session since she came home, and I'm happy to report that she was very well behaved after I tapped her out. Go boas!

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The weather is starting to get pretty variable here and I have limited ability to control the heat in my flat. I may be bumping this girl up to a 4' x 2' x 2' PVC enclosure in a month or two for environmental control reasons.

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Glad all went well with handling, always a nervous time, until you get to know each other properly

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she is precious...congrats!

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Another week's gone by and this girl continues to spoil me with how good she is. She took her second f/t meal at home and continues to be an angel when I have her out. I seriously lucked out with her - she's all I wanted in a first snake. My only cause for concern with her is that she hasn't pooped or passed urates yet - she seems to be adequately hydrated, but almost three weeks seems like a long time.

Big changes will be coming her way in a month or so. I'm in the process of ordering her PVC enclosure, and it should get here in mid-October if all goes well. I've had some good luck locating information about Sonoran boas' habits in the wild, so I should be able to design a nice naturalistic biotope for her before she has to move in in late-October/November. While I'm a bit nervous about moving her up to a bigger cage at her age, I just don't feel like struggling to keep the temps up over the winter in her current glass tank. The average ambients in my apartment were 62-64 F last winter, and I don't know if that will change for the better or not (I have steam radiators and no real control over the heat).

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First, she looks great! Glad she's eating and calm when handling.

Secondly, getting a PVC cage makes all the sense in the world. I have Boaphiles and many people here have AP cages.

Get a good cage that's well insulated, especially if you are going into the low 60's in your apartment in the winter.

Also, go overkill on the heating elements and get a good thermostat, preferably a redundant one.

If you put enough hides in there, she should be ok. I moved Feliz into his 4X2X1' Boaphile at about 180G, if that. However, hides, hides, hides. Make the tank feel cluttered.

PVC cages will also hold humidity well, especially if well insulated. I use paper and in the winter, when it's 25% in basement and 66-68F, I big bowl and occasional misting does the trick.

I would get a RHP and Heat Tape. I would do the heat tape on both sides of the tank if it's bigger than a 3X2'. If it is a 3X2', I would definitely consider very mild heat tape for the cool side.

My 4X2' tanks have an RHP and heat tape on one side and then lower wattage heat tape on the other side (cool side). They all run off the same thermostat and it keeps the hot side/hot spot about 88F and 78-80F on the cool side even in the winter.

I would consider a lower tank - like a 1FT high tank also. Easier to heat.

I never let my basement/reptile area get below 65F, however, I would not worry if it did, as I know I have put more than I need in terms of heating elements. I would rather have them barely run in summer and less in winter, as opposed to running all the time to try to keep up.

For what's worth, I recommend Jeff Ronne and Boaphile because he knows his tanks in and out and if you tell him what the temps get down to, and what size tank, etc. he will customize it for you.

Remember, Radiant Heat Panels (RHP) create a hot spot, but also warm the tank air. Heat tape/heat pads only heat the area they touch.

Additionally, RHP's do not dry the air as much as lamps do.

Please let me know if I can be of any help.

Thanks dakski!

My main concern with this coming winter is the ambient temps in her enclosure - I don't want my girl getting an RI, especially at her age. I've reached out to Pro Products for the RHP and Kages for the enclosure, and from the bit of talking I've done so far, both groups seem to agree that the RHP should be able to keep the ambients up. I also plan on building some stone/rock structures for the basking zone to provide some nice belly heat, and this comes with the added benefit of the stone/rock retaining heat and reflecting it back into the enclosure. Between all that and some supplemental UV-B lighting (I'd imagine T5 lights give off a bit of heat), I'm hoping that I won't have to resort to getting additional heat tape.

My biggest question now is if I want the enclosure to be built in a way that I could go bioactive in the future if I wanted to (ie. raised substrate board, extra vents). My end goal is to build something that's as close to a slice of her part the Sonoran Desert as possible, with a good bit of stone/rock structure, some cork and/or branches, and a few desert plants. I'll only be keeping things naturalistic for the next year or so, though, and I'll probably bump her up to a new 6' x something enclosure when she approaches 5'. I'll be mentally chewing on things for the next few days before I formally place my orders.

Beautiful boa!!

Adelita's been home for about a month now and things are going well. I put in the orders for her new enclosure and RHP, and she treated me to a near-perfect shed:

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All she retained was a bit of shed on the tip of her tail, and I was able to get that off after a quick soak. Now if she'd just do her business - she hasn't gone once since I brought her home, and I'm starting to get worried!

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Originally Posted by WrongPython

Adelita's been home for about a month now and things are going well. I put in the orders for her new enclosure and RHP, and she treated me to a near-perfect shed:

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All she retained was a bit of shed on the tip of her tail, and I was able to get that off after a quick soak. Now if she'd just do her business - she hasn't gone once since I brought her home, and I'm starting to get worried!

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Smaller snakes will use most of what they eat. I wouldn't be too worried. I swear it seemed like Creeper didn't poop for the whole first year. I'm finally starting to see larger turds now.

Put in the order last Sunday night, FedEx delivered Saturday afternoon. Gotta hand it to the team at Kages, they are FAST! Come a trip to Hamburg and a few more deliveries, this kingdom will belong to her.

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It's hard to think she'll be longer than her new cage in a few years. She's just about the depth of it now, though, so she's almost 23" already. I tried to get a more precise measurement, but measuring a sentient, wriggly noodle is hard.

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I plan on weighing her for the first time later this week, after she digests tonight's hopper. Those who are so inclined, place your guesses now. ;)

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I have no good guesses for weight, since I haven't weighed my boa kids yet either and have no frame of reference, haha. However, I have to say I love that last picture of you attempting to measure Adelita, while she stubbornly butts her little snout into your palm.

"Feed me, Mother. I hunger."

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"Yeessss!"

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She'll learn to eat without flipping herself over eventually.

I hope.

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I never really weighed any of my boas. As long as they are healthy and eating I don't worry about it.

Glad she's eating well for., not very often a boa isn't a good eater tho,
It's quite funny how many time they cool and flip over sometimes when they grabbing there prey.


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Originally Posted by richardhind1972

Glad she's eating well for., not very often a boa isn't a good eater tho,
It's quite funny how many time they cool and flip over sometimes when they grabbing there prey.


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lol I'm convinced I could offer cheeseburgers to my boas and they would tear them up. lol They will eat as much as you offer. Anytime.... lol

Such a sweet and gorgeous boa! She has a beautiful opalescent sheen on her scales. And she's such a slender noodle! Very cute, looking forward to watching her grow

Nothing much to report the past few weeks. Adelita continues to be as wonderful as ever - she's still a total sweetheart, in perfect scale, etc. She even learned to eat without flipping herself over! Her new enclosure is coming along nicely, and should hopefully be ready and dialed-in in two weeks or so. It's hard to think this little girl will get to be five feet someday.

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One curious thing about her: she drinks like a chameleon! She prefers to drink freshly-misted water off the surfaces around her tank instead of the water out of her bowl. It's quite funny to watch her go around and drink up the puddles I leave for her with the mister. Such sessions are typically followed by a nice stretch and a yawn:

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Now the question is if she'll be getting a sibling ahead of schedule. Still very on the fence for that matter.

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Had a little photoshoot with Adelita on her new cork tube. She had a good time checking all the cool new smells out, though her favorite activity for a while was trying to crawl back to Mom. Managed to grab a few nice pictures of her:

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She's looking a wee bit chubby to me. I think I'll start gradually moving her to a 10-14 day schedule from the 7-8 day schedule she's been on; I've heard of a few people doing that for sub-yearling boas recently. More opportunities for exercise in her soon-to-be-completed 48" x 24" should help as well.

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Super cute! I love how she drinks like a chameleon haha. I've seen my BP do that before too, it's adorable.

It's also really cool to see her on the cork tube, she camouflages very well!

She's looking great, really nice pics too

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Originally Posted by WrongPython

Had a little photoshoot with Adelita on her new cork tube. She had a good time checking all the cool new smells out, though her favorite activity for a while was trying to crawl back to Mom. Managed to grab a few nice pictures of her:

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She's looking a wee bit chubby to me. I think I'll start gradually moving her to a 10-14 day schedule from the 7-8 day schedule she's been on; I've heard of a few people doing that for sub-yearling boas recently. More opportunities for exercise in her soon-to-be-completed 48" x 24" should help as well.

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Great pics! I love that wood in your enclosure.. She is looking sharp!

Those cork bark photos look awesome! That first one looks like it could be on the cover of a book. And she is SO darn cute in the water-drinking photo, haha.

She is so cute! I will be getting a Sonoran in the next week or two. Would love to hear about your decoration ideas to get it as similar to the Sonoran desert as that was something I was think of doing as well just haven’t had the time to research yet!

Daww, thanks guys! Glad people seem to think she's looking good. And yeah, RedRabbit, she does look like a cover girl in that one shot. Maybe if I get my photograph skills up to snuff to create a coffee table book of boas...:rolleyes:

EmiLee: I can keep you updated on enclosure decor ideas. It's actually been a bit difficult finding information about Sonoran boas' habitat preferences in the wild. From what I understand, the Sonoran boas in herpetoculture are descended from a small group seized at the border when someone tried to smuggle them in, so nobody really knows what part of Sonora Sonoran boas actually came from. There isn't much information about Sonoran boas' habits and specific habitat preferences online, either. The few places I've had some luck so far are the Sonoran Desert Museum (who actually bred the first Sonorans seized at the border, if I remember correctly) and iNaturalist. iNaturalist might be the most useful: search for "Boa imperator," look at the boas that crop up in the state of Sonora in Mexico, and see what types of places they're found in. For now, the enclosure won't be the true Sonoran biotope that I planned, but I can work my way towards it in the future. In the mean time, check out Universal Rocks for some faux-stone backgrounds and ledges -- even a simple background can really tie an enclosure together.

Somebody finally sat pretty to be weighed today. She's around 24" and 100g right now with a single meal in her.

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I have just about everything for her new enclosure now -- I got confirmation that her new enclosure's background and ledges finally shipped, and those are the last pieces I need. She'll be moving into her new home soon!

In the mean time, I've decided to hold off on getting her a sibling. It's been quite difficult keeping the 20L she's in now stable given how finicky the heat and humidity in my flat are, and I'd rather be done with that. Furthermore, I've done a bit of thinking, and I'm actually not quite sure want I'd want my second snake to be. I'm currently waffling between a royal, an inland carpet, and a nice Sonoran leopard (definitely as a pet, but also as a potential mate if future!me decides she wants to breed). BCLs are awesome, but I've found that they're not as high on my wish list as they used to be. Until I come to a more definitive conclusion as to what I want, I'll be holding off on new snakes.

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Looking great the leopards are so small arnt they

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Thanks! Yeah, the leopards nice and small when they're young, at least compared to your typical BI. I'm actually quite interested in seeing how large she ends up growing and the rate at which she does so. Vin's new book says that leopards tend to stay around five feet, while hypo Sonorans can max out at a more slender six feet (that almost sounds like a BIL*?). Adelita's technically both, so I wouldn't be surprised if she winds up closer to five-and-a-half or even six feet instead of just five feet. I'll love her either way.

*Apparently longicauda are classified under imperator now. Time to break out the new acronyms!

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Originally Posted by WrongPython

Thanks! Yeah, the leopards nice and small when they're young, at least compared to your typical BI. I'm actually quite interested in seeing how large she ends up growing and the rate at which she does so. Vin's new book says that leopards tend to stay around five feet, while hypo Sonorans can max out at a more slender six feet (that almost sounds like a BIL*?). Adelita's technically both, so I wouldn't be surprised if she winds up closer to five-and-a-half or even six feet instead of just five feet. I'll love her either way.

*Apparently longicauda are classified under imperator now. Time to break out the new acronyms!

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Yes I saw that about the longicauda, very interesting book. Isn't it

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Adelita's technically both, so I wouldn't be surprised if she winds up closer to five-and-a-half or even six feet instead of just five feet. I'll love her either way.

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We know. :).

I feel the same way about Behira. She's all of 5FT and 1,700G now, but that won't last. She's such an awesome animal, I am at peace with whatever she ends up as. Having said that, I am NOT overfeeding at all and aiming to keep her on the small side of her potential.

It's not that I am intimidated by her potential size, especially with her temperament, I am just not sure 100% what that will be like, having a big female boa. I've held them and interacted with them, but I've never kept one.

Frankly, I am excited. It seems you feel the same way about Adelita. That's cool.

I think people sometimes forget that it takes boas a long time to grow up to size. You really have time to work with them and get to know them. It's not like a week, or even a year, later you have a 6FT animal.

I am really glad you are enjoying her so much and even considering a second one.

Very nice boa! I can't wait to see her new condo...

LET THERE BE LIGHT!

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Adelita's new enclosure is finally assembled! Many thanks to my father who swung by (with his more powerful power tools) to help put it all together. Everything's airing out now and I'll start dialing in conditions when I get my back-up thermostat. All the heavy lifting's done, though, and it feels good.

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Looking awesome.

Definitely let it air out for a bit.

Kudos on using a backup thermostat as well. I run redundant setups on all my tanks. They cut off if too hot.

That looks wicked

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Let Adelita have a little supervised playtime in her new digs today. A lot of curious tongue flicking, though she preferred to remain on her favorite "weird tree," AKA Mom. She seemed to enjoy hanging out under her new UV-B lamp when she finally plopped down on her cork log. It'll be interesting to see how she utilizes it in the future when she's in there full time. A few nice shots for now:

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Great pics, she looks great

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Awesome. The setup is great. Is she staying there now, or were you just testing the waters?

Those pictures were breathtaking. And I am loving her enclosure.


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Just testing the waters. The enclosure still smells a bit plastic-y (it needs to air out a bit longer) and I need a second thermostat to dial in the RHP (I only have a Herpstat One). I'll probably be moving her in the week after next.