Heat mat and substrate

I'm worried that my heat mat isn't sending enough heat though the substrate. I have a little less than half an inch of coconut fiber spread across the terrarium and have an thermostat controller set up as heat mat then probe then glass bottom. I use an infrared thermometer to check the substrate and it only records about 85F max and i'm at least able to feel the heat when placing my hand on it. The substrate used to be thicker, probably 1-1.5 inches of fiber, but then I couldn't feel any heat and the infrared thermometer only recorded somewhere in the mid 70s, even when I set the thermostat controller to +100F.

Previously my thermostat controller was set to turn off 95F and with the infrared it was about 85F on the surface. Currently I have it set to 105F and now it reaches barely 90F. Am I overreacting? Was setting my thermostat controller to 95F good enough and my infrared thermometer just gets messed up from the substrate or my ball python can feel more than what the thermometer is telling me?

You want to measure the temp of the glass, not the top of the substrate. The animal will move substrate to get to the heat pad. If it’s 90° on top of the substrate it’s hot enough to burn the animal underneath the substrate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VultureTim

I'm worried that my heat mat isn't sending enough heat though the substrate. I have a little less than half an inch of coconut fiber spread across the terrarium and have an thermostat controller set up as heat mat then probe then glass bottom. I use an infrared thermometer to check the substrate and it only records about 85F max and i'm at least able to feel the heat when placing my hand on it. The substrate used to be thicker, probably 1-1.5 inches of fiber, but then I couldn't feel any heat and the infrared thermometer only recorded somewhere in the mid 70s, even when I set the thermostat controller to +100F.

Previously my thermostat controller was set to turn off 95F and with the infrared it was about 85F on the surface. Currently I have it set to 105F and now it reaches barely 90F. Am I overreacting? Was setting my thermostat controller to 95F good enough and my infrared thermometer just gets messed up from the substrate or my ball python can feel more than what the thermometer is telling me?

---

What many people (new) on here seem to fail to understand is a uth is not for heating the substrate. Your not the only poster who doesn't seem to understand that. A uth is for creating a hot spot on the bottom (on the glass) up to a temp of 90 degrees F. It will not substantially heat the substrate and is not really for that. It is only to create a warm spot. And the uth and probe should go on the outside. With the probe in between the outside bottom and the heat pad.

I could take the time to take many pictures but I hope you might check this out for yourself and other new posters too. When your little noodle has been in the hide for a while. If you lift the hide up to have a look you will almost 100 percent of the time when you move the snake see a bare spot it has been laying on. About every time I remove my ball out of it's enclosure there is a circle of bare glass/plastic which the snake has been laying on. The uth is to warm up that spot of glass/plastic and that is the only real reason to have it.

To warm up the substrate, ambient, and the over all enclosure you must either heat the entire area the snake is in, or use an additional heat source such as a heat bulb (night bulbs being the best IMO), ceramic heat emitter (che), or radiant heat panel (rhp) They are 2 different things with 2 different ways to heat them. One is a spot of heat and the other stuff provides enclosure heat.

Hope this helps you out. Like mentioned many, many, many people seem to not understand that even though we mention it many times on here. And not knowing the difference can lead to many snake burns if that glass/plastic temp is set too high in trying to do something which can not be done.(heat substrate by uth)
The substrate will get a little heat from the uth but that is not what the uth is there for.
You did the right thing in bringing the substrate depth to 1/2 an inch. Very good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmcrook

You want to measure the temp of the glass, not the top of the substrate. The animal will move substrate to get to the heat pad. If it’s 90° on top of the substrate it’s hot enough to burn the animal underneath the substrate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Much shorter version. Well said.

Ball pythons aren't necessarily burrowers. Mine has never done any burrowing or digging, but he does climb a lot. Still, its risky having an area of the tank that he could get too hot or burn himself on.

I put my thermostat probe inside the tank on top of the glass. You can use some hot glue to ensure it stays in place, but don't glue the actual probe part down, just the plastic cord. Make sure the thermostat is underneath or next to your hot hide

Heat transfer through a medium is dependant on a lot of factors, but it tends not to be linear when dealing with loose substrate. Basically, increasing your thermostat by a certain amount will not necessarily increase substrate surface temperatures by the same amount.

I would set your thermostat to no more than 100°. 88-92 degrees is a really good range to keep your hot side at, and if you need more heat, I would run a heat lamp with a night bulb or CHE on a thermostat, with that thermostat probe hanging a few inches from the substrate on your cold side. This is what I currently do, and my temperatures are currently perfect.

Thank you all for the replies.

I've reset the thermostat controller to be 94F and i'll keep monitoring the temps to see how things go. I have a kenyan sand boa that I also have a thermostat for and used the infrared thermometer to measure the glass temp but didn't think to do the same with my ball python's terrarium. I thought it was a different circumstance since ball pythons don't typically burrow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ranulf

I put my thermostat probe inside the tank on top of the glass. You can use some hot glue to ensure it stays in place, but don't glue the actual probe part down, just the plastic cord. Make sure the thermostat is underneath or next to your hot hide.

---

Do NOT put the thermostat probe for an under enclosure heating element inside the cage EVER. It can be peed on, water spilled, etc causing dangerous temp fluctuations.
From the bottom up ALWAYS in this order:
Heat tape/UTH, thermostat probe, bottom of enclosure.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmcrook

Do NOT put the thermostat probe for an under enclosure heating element inside the cage EVER. It can be peed on, water spilled, etc causing dangerous temp fluctuations.
From the bottom up ALWAYS in this order:
Heat tape/UTH, thermostat probe, bottom of enclosure.

---

I follow the recommendations of a reputable breeder in my area and I use safe thermostats.

I am a nuclear worker who is extremely familiar with control and indication, and there have been no issues.

These are simply two different schools of thought. I have never dumped water on the thermostat, and even if I did, it would significantly cool the entire substrate until it evaporated. It wouldn't create dangerous temperatures, as that probe is reading the actual temperatures in the tank. When the temperatures increase, the thermostat will function as normal and turn off the heat. Substrate has generally good capillary action and water will spread throughout the bottom of the tank. The entire tank will be cooled.


Placing the thermostat probe between the mat and the glass creates a problem. Inefficient heat transfer, and inaccurate temperature readings in the tank. I do not like this, as I want uniform heat transfer at all points where my heat mat touches the glass.

Both methods seem to work for people, and its very much up to personal choice.


There are no absolutes in this, do what works for you

https://youtu.be/8Hq3RzDE_uE

Horse->water. Drink or don’t. Wish PitOnTheProwl’s old crayola illustration was still circulating here to show the correct way to do things... any others care to weigh in? I’m not going to argue. Just offering my knowledge and experience as a result of keeping reptiles for over two decades

Additionally, in the video you’ve linked here, there is no thermostat being used. That is a thermoMETER used solely for reading temperatures, not to control the power provided to the heat element.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Your concerns and reasonings for using the method that you do are the rationale behind your choice.

The decades of experience of the reptile breeders I know speak for the method I use, as well as my extensive knowledge of heat transfer and fluid flow. Science, basically.

A major breeder of all kinds of snakes and reptiles has not had a single problem with heat regulation due to the method I use in over 30 years of keeping reptiles. Several other breeders use the method I use as well, with no issues. I consider it superior due to the improved heat transfer to the tank, and the more accurate temperature reading you get. It is completely safe.

Engineering/Science says so. I feel in a few years, the external probe thing will go the way of separate feeding tubs and "cage aggression," but that's just me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmcrook

Additionally, in the video you’ve linked here, there is no thermostat being used. That is a thermoMETER used solely for reading temperatures, not to control the power provided to the heat element.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

He says thermostat. He uses the $5 thermometer because its $5 and not $30 or more. Also, that brand is easy to remove from its packaging and put it back in, unless they changed it recently.

I've been to his store. I've personally talked to him several times. He knows his stuff.

But lets continue to measure epeens after I already stated that there's not an absolute here, just a difference of opinion within the reptile community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ranulf

He says thermostat. He uses the $5 thermometer because its $5 and not $30 or more. Also, that brand is easy to remove from its packaging and put it back in, unless they changed it recently.

I've been to his store. I've personally talked to him several times. He knows his stuff.

But lets continue to measure epeens after I already stated that there's not an absolute here, just a difference of opinion within the reptile community.

---

Not trying to flex on you, dude. In the video he makes one mention of a RHEOSTAT. Functionally that’s just a light dimmer switch that must be manually regulated by the operator of the heating element as temperatures fluctuate within the space that it is being operated.

A THERMOSTAT will actively read the temp and adjust the power provided to the heating element by either turning it off or on when temps exceed or fall short of the set temperature (on/off style), or will gradually increase the % of power used depending on the reading relative to the set temperature (proportional style).

If you don’t want to listen to the widely accepted practice of placing the probe sensor of an automatic temperature regulation device (thermoSTAT) between the UTH and the enclosure bottom then that’s on you.

Just please don’t spread incorrect information on here where new keepers often come looking for safe, helpful advice on how to care for their animals.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dialing up the thermostat to 100F? 95F?

That can't be right. That is way too hot for a ball python. The actual read would be 2+ or - or more degrees off than the dialed temp (Depending on the quality and accuracy of the thermostat too). Keep in mind that these snakes in the wild spend most of their day hiding in tunnels, holes and termite mounds, places that are cooler and slightly humid and the temp at night is cooler too. Why would a ball python need temps over 90F?

I've talked to the dude. He has sold me all of my THERMOstats. He is a successful breeder of snakes, and all the animals in his store are healthy, with good husbandry provided.

In my opinion, it is you who are propagating misinformation that is based on fear and little else. The method you promote does not result in accurate temperature monitoring, as your thermostat is not actually regulating the temperature in the tank, especially if you also use a radiant heat panel or a lamp. Placing the thermostat probe under the glass can and does result in higher temperatures than desired. Thankfully, there is some leeway, and the temperatures usually are not high enough to damage the snake. If the entire tank is resting on the probe, or if there is excessive pressure on the probe at all, this can damage the probe and result in inaccurate readings.

Taking apart and rebuilding temperature probes is part of what a nuclear worker has to do. We are very concerned about proper temperature monitoring, and we are required to learn all the necessary theory behind their operation. Also, the math. The math can be fun. Heat transfer, woo!

I'm not speaking from a point of ignorance here. I don't think placing the thermostat probe between the mat and the glass is the best practice, but it works for people. If it makes people feel better, and they are OK with the hoops they have to jump through to ensure they achieve safe and correct temperatures for their snakes.... Live and let live I say.

There is also an important snippet you should recall from one of our stickies:


"We strive to provide an open-minded atmosphere where different methods and approaches to the same goals can be discussed and offered up as viable options. The GOAL is to have healthy, thriving animals who are as content in their world as we can make them. The methods for arriving at that goal are varied, and sometimes changing and evolving as we all learn more. Each and every method carries its own set of risks and benefits. "

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

Dialing up the thermostat to 100F? 95F?

That can't be right. That is way too hot for a ball python. The actual read would be 2+ or - or more degrees off than the dialed temp (Depending on the quality and accuracy of the thermostat too). Keep in mind that these snakes in the wild spend most of their day hiding in tunnels, holes and termite mounds, places that are cooler and slightly humid and the temp at night is cooler too. Why would a ball python need temps over 90F?

---

As someone who has worked with nuclear-grade temperature monitoring equipment, the temperature probes most commonly used by the reptile world are very simple and do not have the necessary complexity to ensure pinpoint accuracy. They also do not all perform the same, even when comparing different thermostats of the same type from the same company. Your heat gun temperatures are likely more accurate than your thermostat temperatures, as long as you are using them properly, as they have the necessary hardware for improved accuracy.

If your heat gun temperatures are still reading low (80s) even if your temperature is set at 95 and you have a heat lamp for ambient temperatures, its likely your thermostat is not reading temperatures very accurately, thus requiring you to compensate by using an accurate temperature measuring device (heat gun) to figure out how much you need to adjust by.

I set my hotside thermostats at 88-92 degrees depending on the temperature of the room my snake is in. Heat gun temperatures on the surface vary from 85-92 and are usually within a few degrees of the set temp at the glass.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2f0cbb2b22.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://youtu.be/rNpljc5aH1k

Very good vid illustrating how to set up a thermostat probe, as well as general tub set up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmcrook

You want to measure the temp of the glass, not the top of the substrate. The animal will move substrate to get to the heat pad. If it’s 90° on top of the substrate it’s hot enough to burn the animal underneath the substrate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Correct! Total common sense when you think about it. Ball pythons are typically found in burrows, all be it abandon burrows of other animals most of the time. They are terrestrial and will hug a heat source if needed. If that heat source is too hot the result will be a thermal burn.

Snakes are able to raise and flatten their bodies to regulate themselves. In the process they most definitely can shuffle substrate whether it is intentional or not. I don't have a single snake in my collection that hasn't moved substrate around to the point of laying flat on the cage floor. Royal, carpet, boa constrictor or retic, they all move their substrate.

The safe way to play it is exactly the way JM mentioned, it is practiced widely and proven safe.

Good luck with your animal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ranulf

I follow the recommendations of a reputable breeder in my area and I use safe thermostats.

I am a nuclear worker who is extremely familiar with control and indication, and there have been no issues.

These are simply two different schools of thought. I have never dumped water on the thermostat, and even if I did, it would significantly cool the entire substrate until it evaporated. It wouldn't create dangerous temperatures, as that probe is reading the actual temperatures in the tank. When the temperatures increase, the thermostat will function as normal and turn off the heat. Substrate has generally good capillary action and water will spread throughout the bottom of the tank. The entire tank will be cooled.

Quote:

---

Placing the thermostat probe between the mat and the glass creates a problem. Inefficient heat transfer, and inaccurate temperature readings in the tank. I do not like this, as I want uniform heat transfer at all points where my heat mat touches the glass.

---

Both methods seem to work for people, and its very much up to personal choice.


There are no absolutes in this, do what works for you

https://youtu.be/8Hq3RzDE_uE

---

You talk a good talk but it's the talk of someone with limited experience providing dangerous advice and that needs to be called out.

Everyone with experience, any professional breeder out there (and I mean real breeder) place the t-stat prob directly on the heat source not in the enclosure, it's pretty simple if you place the T-stat in the enclosure the prob can be cool down, or dislodge making the temperature shoot up, leading to burns or worse. IT'S COMMON SENSE.

There are more way than one to do a lot of things but this is not one of them, and you have a LOT to learn especially if you one day you are considering breeding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ranulf

There is also an important snippet you should recall from one of our stickies:


"We strive to provide an open-minded atmosphere where different methods and approaches to the same goals can be discussed and offered up as viable options. The GOAL is to have healthy, thriving animals who are as content in their world as we can make them. The methods for arriving at that goal are varied, and sometimes changing and evolving as we all learn more. Each and every method carries its own set of risks and benefits. "

---

And since you want to quote something I have one for you as well

Quote:

---

Dangerous Advice -- 10 pts
Telling someone to do something completely contrary to known safe methods of husbandry. Not something "different" from normal methods, but things known to be dangerous or potentially harmful. Whether in jest or in seriousness, it matters not.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

Dialing up the thermostat to 100F? 95F?

That can't be right. That is way too hot for a ball python. The actual read would be 2+ or - or more degrees off than the dialed temp (Depending on the quality and accuracy of the thermostat too). Keep in mind that these snakes in the wild spend most of their day hiding in tunnels, holes and termite mounds, places that are cooler and slightly humid and the temp at night is cooler too. Why would a ball python need temps over 90F?

---

Thermostat setting and temperatures in the tank are 2 different things, the differential will depends on several factors such as type of enclosure substrate used etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmcrook

Do NOT put the thermostat probe for an under enclosure heating element inside the cage EVER. It can be peed on, water spilled, etc causing dangerous temp fluctuations.
From the bottom up ALWAYS in this order:
Heat tape/UTH, thermostat probe, bottom of enclosure.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

I agree 100000%

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ballpythonsrock2

What many people (new) on here seem to fail to understand is a uth is not for heating the substrate. Your not the only poster who doesn't seem to understand that. A uth is for creating a hot spot on the bottom (on the glass) up to a temp of 90 degrees F. It will not substantially heat the substrate and is not really for that. It is only to create a warm spot. And the uth and probe should go on the outside. With the probe in between the outside bottom and the heat pad.

I could take the time to take many pictures but I hope you might check this out for yourself and other new posters too. When your little noodle has been in the hide for a while. If you lift the hide up to have a look you will almost 100 percent of the time when you move the snake see a bare spot it has been laying on. About every time I remove my ball out of it's enclosure there is a circle of bare glass/plastic which the snake has been laying on. The uth is to warm up that spot of glass/plastic and that is the only real reason to have it.

To warm up the substrate, ambient, and the over all enclosure you must either heat the entire area the snake is in, or use an additional heat source such as a heat bulb (night bulbs being the best IMO), ceramic heat emitter (che), or radiant heat panel (rhp) They are 2 different things with 2 different ways to heat them. One is a spot of heat and the other stuff provides enclosure heat.

Hope this helps you out. Like mentioned many, many, many people seem to not understand that even though we mention it many times on here. And not knowing the difference can lead to many snake burns if that glass/plastic temp is set too high in trying to do something which can not be done.(heat substrate by uth)
The substrate will get a little heat from the uth but that is not what the uth is there for.
You did the right thing in bringing the substrate depth to 1/2 an inch. Very good.

---

Thank you!!! Why don't 'they' explain that when you buy uth... ugh... Now it makes more sense to me!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ballpythonsrock2

I could take the time to take many pictures but I hope you might check this out for yourself and other new posters too. When your little noodle has been in the hide for a while. If you lift the hide up to have a look you will almost 100 percent of the time when you move the snake see a bare spot it has been laying on. About every time I remove my ball out of it's enclosure there is a circle of bare glass/plastic which the snake has been laying on. The uth is to warm up that spot of glass/plastic and that is the only real reason to have it.

---

Took a pic last night after removing my ball for home cleaning. I put it in my gallery. So if you wish you can have a look.

That reptile rapture video is hardly a "reputable breeder".

He's talking about a thermoMETER and doesn't even mention a thermoSTAT in the video!!!! Literally doesn't mention a thermostat once in the video and it's literally the most important tool you can have...and is PART OF THE INSTALLATION PROCESS if installing a heat mat.

He talks about a temp gun for a quick sec, "they're kinda cool, we use them fairly often". It's also one of the most important tools a keeper can have.


That video is straight junk. So if you're going to share info, try to share quality info so others can learn.

Finally got around to watch the video and this once again proves why people should not do research on Youtube nor regurgitate information that is incorrect, incomplete or not fully comprehended.

Here you have a pet store OWNER that does not even recommend a thermostat which I would expect better from a specialized pet store.

To add to this there is also some serious confusion between thermoMETER and thermoSTAT either on the owner’s part or the customer’s part.

ThermoMETER: Reads temperatures.

ThermoSTAT: Regulates temperatures, prevent over heating which can lead to burns, death and fire hazard.

And there is only ONE way to CORRECTLY install both as shown in the diagram posted above.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ranulf

I follow the recommendations of a reputable breeder in my area and I use safe thermostats.

I am a nuclear worker who is extremely familiar with control and indication, and there have been no issues.

These are simply two different schools of thought. I have never dumped water on the thermostat, and even if I did, it would significantly cool the entire substrate until it evaporated. It wouldn't create dangerous temperatures, as that probe is reading the actual temperatures in the tank. When the temperatures increase, the thermostat will function as normal and turn off the heat. Substrate has generally good capillary action and water will spread throughout the bottom of the tank. The entire tank will be cooled.


Placing the thermostat probe between the mat and the glass creates a problem. Inefficient heat transfer, and inaccurate temperature readings in the tank. I do not like this, as I want uniform heat transfer at all points where my heat mat touches the glass.

Both methods seem to work for people, and its very much up to personal choice.


There are no absolutes in this, do what works for you

https://youtu.be/8Hq3RzDE_uE

---

Well see, the problem here is....... you are talking yourself up really well. Many of us have DECADES of experience caring for these animals. You know, actual hands on, seen it happen kind of stuff. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmcrook

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2f0cbb2b22.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Everyone likes it but sadly still there are some that cannot comprehend it.