Breeding Rats - small scale help

Hi,

I’m going to start breeding ball pythons this winter, and I’m thinking about starting to breed rats as well to save a few bucks and maybe sell the rats that end up being produced in excess.

I’ve been reading a lot, in rat breeding website and in this forum but I have still some doubts.

I’m thinking about starting with a 1.3 setup.

In plastic storage bins, what would be the minimum dimensions you guys suggest for them?

About the breeding, I read that to put more than one female they should be sisters in order to avoid problems, is that true?

And other thing, when I setup one male and three females how will the breeding work? Will the 3 females all be pregnant at the same time and have litters together?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Hugo


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Other question I forgot is, if the rats were to chew on the cage, how fast can they do it? Can a cage be as new today and, when I get there 24h later, can they be all gone? [emoji23] I’m asking because they will be in a storage space I use and if they were to get out I probably would never find them again [emoji23]


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The 10 gallon cement/mud mixing tubs from Lowe's or Home Depot work well. You can easily build a small 2 tub rack for breeders and growing out offspring.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...00-64_1000.jpg

Hi, I’m from Portugal and we can’t buy trays similar to those in here, they are very small. Do you have any idea what are the measurements of those? In those I could put all my 4 rats?


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Those tubs are roughly 30" by 20", if I remember right from building my rack. Around 6" tall.

You can fit 1.3 rats, though for my purposes I don't leave the male in all the time so it may need slightly more frequent cleaning once you have babies growing. I usually have 2-3 females with babies or 2-3 females plus the male while being bred

Aim for tubs with no edges or creases inside. This limits their ability to chew on it since they can only access the flat surfaces. If they are prone to chewing (some lines have had this trait of chewing the tub bred out, some have not), they can easily make a hole big enough to squeeze out of in a few hours if they can get their teeth around a starting point like a lip or edge of the plastic.

The sisters thing is largely myth, in my opinion. Well bred rats should be able to be placed together at any age from any litter and be fine. If they are not, it is a sign of poor temperament and many breeders work to cull that out.

Your females will probably be pregnant all at once within a few days depending on their cycles. Female rats are "ready" roughly every 5 days after they are old enough to breed. Most of mine are same-day or 5 days later when bred at the same time.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ERA

Other question I forgot is, if the rats were to chew on the cage, how fast can they do it? Can a cage be as new today and, when I get there 24h later, can they be all gone? [emoji23] I’m asking because they will be in a storage space I use and if they were to get out I probably would never find them again [emoji23]


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I wouldn't advise housing rats in the typical plastic storage containers that many use for snakes. As already noted above, rats can & will chew thru plastics if they can
get their teeth on it, so whatever you use must be smooth, thick & have nothing they can get a hold of...they can chew thru bricks & many other things too, & in fact,
they NEED to chew hard things to keep their teeth filed & not over-grown. And trust me, you don't want rats getting loose & established as wild...they're intelligent &
very hard to catch. I highly recommend using professionally-made lab cages designed for rats...it's not worth the risk of them escaping; such lab cages have the hard
plastic bottom with nothing they can get their teeth on, & they have metal bars overhead they cannot chew through to hold their food (so it stays clean & not wasted).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SouthWestIron

The 10 gallon cement/mud mixing tubs from Lowe's or Home Depot work well. You can easily build a small 2 tub rack for breeders and growing out offspring.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...00-64_1000.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

Those tubs are roughly 30" by 20", if I remember right from building my rack. Around 6" tall.

You can fit 1.3 rats, though for my purposes I don't leave the male in all the time so it may need slightly more frequent cleaning once you have babies growing. I usually have 2-3 females with babies or 2-3 females plus the male while being bred

Aim for tubs with no edges or creases inside. This limits their ability to chew on it since they can only access the flat surfaces. If they are prone to chewing (some lines have had this trait of chewing the tub bred out, some have not), they can easily make a hole big enough to squeeze out of in a few hours if they can get their teeth around a starting point like a lip or edge of the plastic.

The sisters thing is largely myth, in my opinion. Well bred rats should be able to be placed together at any age from any litter and be fine. If they are not, it is a sign of poor temperament and many breeders work to cull that out.

Your females will probably be pregnant all at once within a few days depending on their cycles. Female rats are "ready" roughly every 5 days after they are old enough to breed. Most of mine are same-day or 5 days later when bred at the same time.

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...95a4e4d08f.jpg

Would you guys consider this as a good alternative? The purpose of it is the same as the one you were talking about, but in here ours are not as curved on the bottom, having more edges.

Thanks for all the answers to my other questions pretends2bnormal


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I think that would work fine.

But what are you making the top out of? Keep in mind that they can get their teeth on "welded wire" & chew it apart easily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I wouldn't advise housing rats in the typical plastic storage containers that many use for snakes. As already noted above, rats can & will chew thru plastics if they can
get their teeth on it, so whatever you use must be smooth, thick & have nothing they can get a hold of...they can chew thru bricks & many other things too, & in fact,
they NEED to chew hard things to keep their teeth filed & not over-grown. And trust me, you don't want rats getting loose & established as wild...they're intelligent &
very hard to catch. I highly recommend using professionally-made lab cages designed for rats...it's not worth the risk of them escaping; such lab cages have the hard
plastic bottom with nothing they can get their teeth on, & they have metal bars overhead they cannot chew through to hold their food (so it stays clean & not wasted).

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Do you believe theses concrete mixing bowls are a good option as well? Unfortunately in my country those lab cages are hard to find new or in good condition as well, those are actually the ones I would prefer to use.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ERA

Do you believe theses concrete mixing bowls are a good option as well? Unfortunately in my country those lab cages are hard to find new or in good condition as well, those are actually the ones I would prefer to use.


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For the bottoms, yes...but again, a cage is only as escape-proof as the entire thing is, bottom AND top.

I don't suppose Reptile Basics will ship to where you are (or at an economically-decent price)?
https://www.reptilebasics.com/rodent-caging/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I think that would work fine.

But what are you making the top out of? Keep in mind that they can get their teeth on "welded wire" & chew it apart easily.

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I was thinking about making like a rack, but only for one tub. So the lib would be a melamine frame with that welded wire covering the hole. What material do you use on yours?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

For the bottoms, yes...but again, a cage is only as escape-proof as the entire thing is, bottom AND top.

I don't suppose Reptile Basics will ship to where you are (or at an economically-decent price)?
https://www.reptilebasics.com/rodent-caging/

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Yes, I understand.

Probably not, shipping from US is normally expensive, and the cage itself is not cheap to begin with.


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You'll want good ventilation for rats (or any rodent cages). I used professional lab cages when I raised rats, & currently for the mice I raise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I think that would work fine.

But what are you making the top out of? Keep in mind that they can get their teeth on "welded wire" & chew it apart easily.

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4d68aadc1c.jpg
This one will probably be strong enough, won’t it? It’s our version of a chicken fence. It’s Galvanized Bird Cage Netting Welded Wire.


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I hope so, but can't tell from pic...you also need to make sure holes aren't too big, as adult rats can fit thru a hole the size of a quarter (about an inch,
or 25 mm).

Those tubs look fine to me. The edges you would be concerned about are ones that bend the other way, such as if the plastic had a wave to the shape and they could get teeth on each side to chew it. If you look at the cross section edge with the inside of the tub where the rats are as the side you measure the angle, you want to avoid anything with a greater than 180 degree angle. Less than that, they can't get teeth above and below and bite into. The tub you showed has 180 degree, flat walls, and roughly 90 degree edges, for example.

The true benefit to less sharp corners isn't to stop chewing and is instead easier to get soiled bedding to come loose while cleaning and not get stuck into corners.

For the top, there are different types of weld, but I'm not sure which are strong enough. In the US, chicken wire is too large of holes and the weld itself can be popped apart too easily by the rats, then bent and escaped from. For baby rats, maximum hole size is 1/2" or 12-13mm.

Also, not sure I'd pick melamine. It's pretty heavy for its size and my racks out of 2x2 or 2x3 boards all work perfectly without the coating you'd want for a snake rack to protect against humidity.




To bogertophis and OP, rats are a bit different from some other rodent species and don't require anything to chew on for physical wellness. Physically, short of deformities and medical issues like malocclusion, their teeth line up and rats can grind them down via bruxing and grinding against themselves (or as they chew on the lab blocks they often eat as a breeding diet as their teeth are intended to grind down as they eat over time).

With malocclusion, rats cannot grind their teeth or chew to grind them down due to misalignment and this typically requires intervention akin to trimming dog nails on a every couple weeks basis. For a feeder breeder, this is generally culled as it is beyond the worth of your time and you do not want to propogate the genes that caused it by breeding more of its offspring in case it was a genetic case. (Cull could mean euthanize or rehome as a pet with a known medical need, up to you. Just not being bred for feeders anymore is key there.)

Chews are good for their mental health and enrichment, and are good to have, but not the end of the world if they don't have one at all times. Many rats will also chew and shred bedding for nests if given large chip aspen or kiln dried pine.

Aside from occasional toilet role cores of thin cardboard which rarely get chewed apart when given and need to be tossed at cleaning each week due to snell, my rats mostly do not have dedicated chews. When I gave chunks of 2x4 early on, they largely ignored them, maybe 2 or 3 marks on the very corners (over 2+ months) and they peed on them and made them stink like crazy.

Learned originally from quite a few long-time rat breeders for feeders and pets alike when I was getting started, but here's a source to look at regarding the teeth grinding info:
http://ratfanclub.org/teeth.html

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

Those tubs look fine to me. The edges you would be concerned about are ones that bend the other way, such as if the plastic had a wave to the shape and they could get teeth on each side to chew it. If you look at the cross section edge with the inside of the tub where the rats are as the side you measure the angle, you want to avoid anything with a greater than 180 degree angle. Less than that, they can't get teeth above and below and bite into. The tub you showed has 180 degree, flat walls, and roughly 90 degree edges, for example.

The true benefit to less sharp corners isn't to stop chewing and is instead easier to get soiled bedding to come loose while cleaning and not get stuck into corners.

For the top, there are different types of weld, but I'm not sure which are strong enough. In the US, chicken wire is too large of holes and the weld itself can be popped apart too easily by the rats, then bent and escaped from. For baby rats, maximum hole size is 1/2" or 12-13mm.

Also, not sure I'd pick melamine. It's pretty heavy for its size and my racks out of 2x2 or 2x3 boards all work perfectly without the coating you'd want for a snake rack to protect against humidity.




To bogertophis and OP, rats are a bit different from some other rodent species and don't require anything to chew on for physical wellness. Physically, short of deformities and medical issues like malocclusion, their teeth line up and rats can grind them down via bruxing and grinding against themselves (or as they chew on the lab blocks they often eat as a breeding diet as their teeth are intended to grind down as they eat over time).

With malocclusion, rats cannot grind their teeth or chew to grind them down due to misalignment and this typically requires intervention akin to trimming dog nails on a every couple weeks basis. For a feeder breeder, this is generally culled as it is beyond the worth of your time and you do not want to propogate the genes that caused it by breeding more of its offspring in case it was a genetic case. (Cull could mean euthanize or rehome as a pet with a known medical need, up to you. Just not being bred for feeders anymore is key there.)

Chews are good for their mental health and enrichment, and are good to have, but not the end of the world if they don't have one at all times. Many rats will also chew and shred bedding for nests if given large chip aspen or kiln dried pine.

Aside from occasional toilet role cores of thin cardboard which rarely get chewed apart when given and need to be tossed at cleaning each week due to snell, my rats mostly do not have dedicated chews. When I gave chunks of 2x4 early on, they largely ignored them, maybe 2 or 3 marks on the very corners (over 2+ months) and they peed on them and made them stink like crazy.

Learned originally from quite a few long-time rat breeders for feeders and pets alike when I was getting started, but here's a source to look at regarding the teeth grinding info:
http://ratfanclub.org/teeth.html

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Thank you for all your help! I’lol give it a try, using this tub and get a high quality welded mesh for the top. I’ll try to make some sort of a perimeter for the beginning until I’m sure a end up putting together a solid scape-proof cage, just to me sure [emoji23]





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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ERA

Thank you for all your help! I’lol give it a try, using this tub and get a high quality welded mesh for the top. I’ll try to make some sort of a perimeter for the beginning until I’m sure a end up putting together a solid scape-proof cage, just to me sure [emoji23]





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It's good that you're trying to make sure your rats don't escape, but also consider the possibility that other creatures may try to get to them, so make sure nothing can get in, like cats, dogs, weasels, foxes, snakes... The rat's scent can attract other species to prey on them if not secure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's good that you're trying to make sure your rats don't escape, but also consider the possibility that other creatures may try to get to them, so make sure nothing can get in, like cats, dogs, weasels, foxes, snakes... The rat's scent can attract other species to prey on them if not secure.

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That won’t be a problem as they are going to be at a storage room where only I will have access [emoji106]


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