Thoughts???? Is breeding mice worth it in my situation???

So I've been tossing the idea of breeding mice around for a little while now. I've admittedly just barely scratched the surface of the ins and outs, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask my trusted friends at BP.net.

So here's my situation...

I have my Borneo STP who is a pain in the butt as far as eating F/T. He eats live like a champ, but will only eat F/T once in a great while, and has yet to take a rat. When he accepts F/T mice he'll only eat one, so nowhere near an appropriately sized meal.

I also have a King, KSB and Hognose who will all eat mice their whole lives.

So I'm thinking breeding mice may not be a bad idea.
I'd keep F/T on hand for any dry spells I may endure with breeding. If I have a surplus, I'll freeze some.

So I'm curious about the logistics and finances of it all and whether or not it'll be worth it. I'm paying a ridiculously high price for live mice, so each of Juice's (Borneo STP) meals costs me upward of $15.
I can't imagine breeding would be more expensive than that.

Anyway, like I said, I'm just scratching the surface, but I thought it would be nice to hear some feedback from some trusted sources rather than relying on random internet info.

Thanks in advance all!!

I don't breed my own mice so I can't speak to the cost of producing your own feeders versus buying them. I do know that if I had to spend $15 per feeding I'd definitely explore other options.

Have you tried your Borneo STP on stillborn rabbit kits or chicks from local breeders? These often are inexpensive and if your STP won't eat them your king snake will, should you wish to give it a try.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I don't breed my own mice so I can't speak to the cost of producing your own feeders versus buying them. I do know that if I had to spend $15 per feeding I'd definitely explore other options.

Have you tried your Borneo STP on stillborn rabbit kits or chicks from local breeders? These often are inexpensive and if your STP won't eat them your king snake will, should you wish to give it a try.

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Yeah, the feeding costs are absurd. And as he gets bigger that number will just climb.

I haven't tried anything other than typical mice and rats. I've yet to find a reliable local breeder for live rats, so I wouldn't even know where to start looking for "non-typical" prey items.
I'll put my Google skills to the test, but if you have any suggestions I'm all ears.

Thanks!!

Wow, that's a tough call for so few snakes...but the price of live for the Borneo is :O.

First, do you have a place to breed mice that is warm enough in winter & cool enough in summer? Mice stink, btw. They can handle my cold garage in winter
but I insulate their cages as well as the area they are in, & I'm in the mid-South (winter varies greatly but my garage can get pretty cold). They prefer about 70*
and not above 80*. Summer for me means keeping them in my laundry room & this is far from ideal...like I said, odor! I cut way back in summer & clean more.
(too cold, they don't breed much, & too warm, they can't: have to think in terms of fertility)

You'll be buying food & litter...and then there's your time, cleaning cages, & making sure each day they have food & water.

Small colony, not a big deal, but reproduction can be hard to predict: young adults take a while to get going, & some just don't, or kill their babies. For just a few
snakes, getting the right size mice consistently when you need them will be a challenge...AND, you always need to hold back some to replace spent breeders, so
it's not as if one trio of mice is going to get the job done for you.

You'll need to buy lab cages also, trust me on this...pricey, but you do NOT want to raise mice in glass tanks. You can use a plastic laundry tub & make a wire mesh
top, but food & water in bowls is a no-go. They perceive water as a threat & pile shavings into it, and food in bowls will be crapped on: lab cages have the tops
with holding areas for food & water bottle. (they can also chew holes in plastic water bottles pretty easily if they can reach them...lab cages are the answer!)

You also need to consider "security": you don't want mice getting loose, ever, but your cats may think it's a fun idea? So consider your other pets in relation to
having a rodent ranch. ;)

Have you tried him on a live rat? I have a jerk of a borneo that's the same way, pounds live, won't hardly touch a f/t. I bred mice and rats while I had several hatchling snakes but as they grew up, he was the only one who wouldn't take them prekilled or f/t. Everytime I get him eating f/t for a couple weeks in a row I think yay and then it's back to refuse refuse. Had to drive 1.5 hours and pay $9/rat last year over the summer because he hadn't eaten in awhile, had the rats upstairs in the room prescenting and offered him a f/t again to try, nabbed it right up. So for a couple weeks I just had pet rats that I stuck near his cage before feeding and tricked him into taking f/t with. Then I got ahead of myself, euthed and fed those two off, he's been hit or miss since but eating enough I'm not overly concerned about it. Not enough to get a new pet rat anyways. But just a thought!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Wow, that's a tough call for so few snakes...but the price of live for the Borneo is :O.

First, do you have a place to breed mice that is warm enough in winter & cool enough in summer? Mice stink, btw. They can handle my cold garage in winter
but I insulate their cages as well as the area they are in, & I'm in the mid-South (winter varies greatly but my garage can get pretty cold). They prefer about 70*
and not above 80*. Summer for me means keeping them in my laundry room & this is far from ideal...like I said, odor! I cut way back in summer & clean more.
(too cold, they don't breed much, & too warm, they can't: have to think in terms of fertility)

You'll be buying food & litter...and then there's your time, cleaning cages, & making sure each day they have food & water.

Small colony, not a big deal, but reproduction can be hard to predict: young adults take a while to get going, & some just don't, or kill their babies. For just a few
snakes, getting the right size mice consistently when you need them will be a challenge...AND, you always need to hold back some to replace spent breeders, so
it's not as if one trio of mice is going to get the job done for you.

You'll need to buy lab cages also, trust me on this...pricey, but you do NOT want to raise mice in glass tanks. You can use a plastic laundry tub & make a wire mesh
top, but food & water in bowls is a no-go. They perceive water as a threat & pile shavings into it, and food in bowls will be crapped on: lab cages have the tops
with holding areas for food & water bottle. (they can also chew holes in plastic water bottles pretty easily if they can reach them...lab cages are the answer!)

You also need to consider "security": you don't want mice getting loose, ever, but your cats may think it's a fun idea? So consider your other pets in relation to
having a rodent ranch. ;)

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Thank you!! I have plenty of options as far as a place to breed them. I'd likely have them in the same room as the ferrets. I figure one "smelly" room is enough, hahahha. But my basement or shed are also options for part of the year.

Since the others all eat F/T with no issue I'd probably have to focus on raising the majority to adult size for the Borneo.

I'm glad you said that about glass too, I was pondering repurposing a few old glass tanks.

As for escapees, I'll be careful. I don't need any additional animals roaming my house, hahahha.

Thanks, Boger!

If using a glass tank for rodents: one of their hobbies is chewing thru the silicone in the corners...just so you know. And you'll have to hang a water bottle in
there, which is then vulnerable to being chewed thru, and which (I guarantee!) will be scent-marked (pee'd on). Just not a fun way to raise them...& a hassle
to dump out for cleaning.

About raising most mice to adult size: the males fight & sometimes kill each other (& they also make the most odor, to impress the females). In a communal
cage, they'll be fighting all the time if there's more than one adult male.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

Have you tried him on a live rat? I have a jerk of a borneo that's the same way, pounds live, won't hardly touch a f/t. I bred mice and rats while I had several hatchling snakes but as they grew up, he was the only one who wouldn't take them prekilled or f/t. Everytime I get him eating f/t for a couple weeks in a row I think yay and then it's back to refuse refuse. Had to drive 1.5 hours and pay $9/rat last year over the summer because he hadn't eaten in awhile, had the rats upstairs in the room prescenting and offered him a f/t again to try, nabbed it right up. So for a couple weeks I just had pet rats that I stuck near his cage before feeding and tricked him into taking f/t with. Then I got ahead of myself, euthed and fed those two off, he's been hit or miss since but eating enough I'm not overly concerned about it. Not enough to get a new pet rat anyways. But just a thought!

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I haven't tried a live rat, for no reason other than I haven't found a source within a decent driving distance. By the time I factor in gas and time it's just easier and probably a wash financially.

But that's EXACTLY how Juice is. I've tried leaving his live feeders in their cage so he can smell them, then offering F/T. Apparently he's smarter than I give him credit for, hahahha. I've also tried feeding a live mouse and following that with F/T. No dice.
Then randomly I'll try and he takes ONE F/T mouse. But won't take a second.
I've tried scenting with mouse bedding. No luck.

Up until he just let out 300 grams of pee/poop he was looking good, now he looks a bit skinny,hahahaha.
But not unhealthy. I tend to wait him out a bit between offering, hoping he'll just be hungry enough for F/T but that's never worked beyond one mouse either.

I started nicknaming his Juice-ifer, cause I swear he loves the thrill of the kill, hahahaha!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

If using a glass tank for rodents: one of their hobbies is chewing thru the silicone in the corners...just so you know. And you'll have to hang a water bottle in
there, which is then vulnerable to being chewed thru, and which (I guarantee!) will be scent-marked (pee'd on). Just not a fun way to raise them...& a hassle
to dump out for cleaning.

About raising most mice to adult size: the males fight & sometimes kill each other (& they also make the most odor, to impress the females).

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Ok cool. That's enough of an endorsement to scrap the glass idea. In Bogertophis I trust! :gj:

I'd second the lab cages as easiest, and for your needs, just 2 is probably plenty. (1 for the colony, and 1 for grow outs or to pull the Male out if you start getting overrun with babies.)

Even when I had just 1.2 going, I was getting plenty for about 6 or 7 snakes taking mice. Luckily adult mice will never really outgrow your needs. Just be sure to freeze off your males at weaning and raise up solely females for the live feeders or you will get deaths from male dominance fighting.

But I don't recommend getting the mice size lab cages. The rat size ones have the same bar spacing (1/4") and are able to house a 1.3 colony without getting nearly as smelly. The mice ones are just very small and once you have hoppers on top of even 1.1 adults, you have to clean at least 2x weekly. (Sizes I'm referring to are for the 2 off of RBI, not sure of any others)

I'd recommend using primarily the horse stall pine pellets with a handful or two of kiln dried pine shavings for them to make nests (or sub for Aspen if you don't mind the cost). I only have the 1 mouse colony, but I've only had to clean it weekly. The pellets tend to powderize as they get soiled and is good for visually telling the mess and also absorb smell very well. It still has some smell, but in a ventilated room it isn't bad; not likely to be worse than ferrets from how I've heard it described.

A 40lb bag of the pellets is like $6 at tractor supply co and the big pine shavings are about the same. I've yet to run out of either after having 2 mouse cages to clean weekly in about 3 or 4 months now. Almost to a new bag of pellets, but still have quite a bit of pine left.

Food is also important to consider for pricing, but I can get mazuri 6F locally for cheaper than most due to proximity to one of their lab supply locations, but Doggy Bag (also at TSC, $14/40lb bag) has similar ingredients and stays on the bars nicely. It is an awful dog food, but mice don't require their protein to be from animal meat the way dogs do and it is otherwise pretty effective for them. For cost, I mostly feed the mice doggy bag, and my rats get the 6F, but I give the mice some 6F on occasion for variety and to balance out in case there is a deficiency somewhere.

With your live prices, you'd almost certainly be saving money to breed your own. And you could offer excess adults for sale live or frozen locally and cover costs some or entirely if the prices you have been paying are the only available ones currently.

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

I wouldn't even know where to start looking for "non-typical" prey items.

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I've had the best luck on the Facebook groups for local farmers who raise chickens or rabbits for meat. They are a lot more pragmatic about the circle of life than the folks who breed rabbits strictly for pets or show.

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Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

I'd second the lab cages as easiest, and for your needs, just 2 is probably plenty. (1 for the colony, and 1 for grow outs or to pull the Male out if you start getting overrun with babies.)

Even when I had just 1.2 going, I was getting plenty for about 6 or 7 snakes taking mice. Luckily adult mice will never really outgrow your needs. Just be sure to freeze off your males at weaning and raise up solely females for the live feeders or you will get deaths from male dominance fighting.

But I don't recommend getting the mice size lab cages. The rat size ones have the same bar spacing (1/4") and are able to house a 1.3 colony without getting nearly as smelly. The mice ones are just very small and once you have hoppers on top of even 1.1 adults, you have to clean at least 2x weekly. (Sizes I'm referring to are for the 2 off of RBI, not sure of any others)

I'd recommend using primarily the horse stall pine pellets with a handful or two of kiln dried pine shavings for them to make nests (or sub for Aspen if you don't mind the cost). I only have the 1 mouse colony, but I've only had to clean it weekly. The pellets tend to powderize as they get soiled and is good for visually telling the mess and also absorb smell very well. It still has some smell, but in a ventilated room it isn't bad; not likely to be worse than ferrets from how I've heard it described.

A 40lb bag of the pellets is like $6 at tractor supply co and the big pine shavings are about the same. I've yet to run out of either after having 2 mouse cages to clean weekly in about 3 or 4 months now. Almost to a new bag of pellets, but still have quite a bit of pine left.

Food is also important to consider for pricing, but I can get mazuri 6F locally for cheaper than most due to proximity to one of their lab supply locations, but Doggy Bag (also at TSC, $14/40lb bag) has similar ingredients and stays on the bars nicely. It is an awful dog food, but mice don't require their protein to be from animal meat the way dogs do and it is otherwise pretty effective for them. For cost, I mostly feed the mice doggy bag, and my rats get the 6F, but I give the mice some 6F on occasion for variety and to balance out in case there is a deficiency somewhere.

With your live prices, you'd almost certainly be saving money to breed your own. And you could offer excess adults for sale live or frozen locally and cover costs some or entirely if the prices you have been paying are the only available ones currently.

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Awesome info!!! Thanks so much!!!

I raised mice for a short while. It is a lot cheaper than buy live mice. The feed was pretty cheap I thought. I used my paper shredder to make substrate from paper. You can buy the mice from Petco divided into female and male. I would get a few females and maybe one male and take him out after he gets some of the females impregnated. It will be a lot cheaper and more convenient for you. What turned me off was the smell. I noticed that petco has vacuum tubes that pull the smell out of the store. If you can handle the smell, you and your snakes will be happy, happy.
I used a 20 gal. glass and had no problem. They didn't bite the silicone in mine as long as you give them chew sticks, which are also pretty cheap. And you will need the little plastic homes they snuggle in. And maybe an activity wheel they can run or play on.

When I had a lot more snakes to feed (for many years in CA), I ended up with enough surplus rodents to supply others & ended up with a profitable rodent business
that supported the snakes. :D But that was labor-intensive, let me tell you. I'm surprised you haven't found anyone near you that's into snakes & already raises
their own to buy a few 'live' from, but hey, maybe you'll be "that one"? As far as cost effectiveness, it mostly depends on local availability of food & bedding, with
larger population centers usually being cheaper. Raising only a few mice, it costs more to buy small bags of lab pellets than it does to get the 40-50 lbs, & if it takes
too long to use it up, you may find that weevils have beaten the mice to it. But one way or another, if your pet needs some live, you gotta do what you gotta do...;)

I agree with using somewhat bigger cages for the mice, & they do best (IMO) as a trio of 1.2. Not all brands of lab cages have the same bar-spacing for rat or mouse
cages, so check first. I use mini-flake ("easy pick") kiln dried wood chips, large bales, for bedding. Now that I only have a small colony, most of the used wood
chips "disappear" into my lawn/garden. ("mouse fertilizer"...who knew?)

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Originally Posted by ballpythonsrock2

I raised mice for a short while. It is a lot cheaper than buy live mice. The feed was pretty cheap I thought. I used my paper shredder to make substrate from paper. You can buy the mice from Petco divided into female and male. I would get a few females and maybe one male and take him out after he gets some of the females impregnated. It will be a lot cheaper and more convenient for you. What turned me off was the smell. I noticed that petco has vacuum tubes that pull the smell out of the store. If you can handle the smell, you and your snakes will be happy, happy.
I used a 20 gal. glass and had no problem. They didn't bite the silicone in mine as long as you give them chew sticks, which are also pretty cheap. And you will need the little plastic homes they snuggle in. And maybe an activity wheel they can run or play on.

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I would be extremely hesitant to include a wheel in a feeder mouse enclosure. Generally, they have plenty to do for stimulation with their offspring and chewables that it isn't needed. Additionally, I've seen some pretty gnarly posts resulting from the use of them in the feeder groups I'm in.

Some mice are obsessive and will run nonstop to the point of neglecting to feed babies. Others try and nest beneath wheels and can catch and throw babies across the cage when they run (more death).

Using one may work for some, but it seems too risky to me. Not to mention nowhere near enough room in the lab style caging for typical wheels.

Your smell issue was likely exacerbated by using an aquarium. Both rats and mice have high levels of ammonia in their urine and it tends to remain heavier than air and stay put at the bottom of the tank compared to shorter tubs. The lower height let's air across the top lift it enough for some to escape and dissipate intk a larger air volume whereas it all tends to stay inside of an aquarium. Also, while rats are more susceptible to RI from the lack of sifficient ventilation taller aquariums have (mostly anything over 6-8"), mice can be effected as well. If the smell is horrible to a human, it is far worse for them and the bigger consequence is from breathing the ammonia that causes the smell. Most feeder breeders strongly advise against glass for mice and rats because of that.

Also, if there are any feeder or pet line breeders anywhere near you, it is well worth even a 2 hour one-time drive to get pet quality animals. Just because some mice are pet store animals does not make then good pets. Mice from pet stores tend to be bitey, chew plastic (typically not possible with lab cages as those are designed without any edges to grip, mostly an issue for DIY tubs), and many are predisposed to killing their litters or cage mates inexplicably when establishing the colony.

I've been lucky my mice are only super skittish and not biters or chewers or baby munchers. Mice can be very tricky to get breeding from general pet store lines, though some areas seem to be much worse than others.

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Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

I would be extremely hesitant to include a wheel in a feeder mouse enclosure. Generally, they have plenty to do for stimulation with their offspring and chewables that it isn't needed. Additionally, I've seen some pretty gnarly posts resulting from the use of them in the feeder groups I'm in.

Some mice are obsessive and will run nonstop to the point of neglecting to feed babies. Others try and nest beneath wheels and can catch and throw babies across the cage when they run (more death).

Using one may work for some, but it seems too risky to me. Not to mention nowhere near enough room in the lab style caging for typical wheels...

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I was going to say the same thing...running on wheels seems to be addicting, to where a mom with nursing babies will hop into the wheel & let the babies go flying!

And also, when I first got into breeding mice & got a few from a local pet store, they never did breed...:confusd: I sorta wondered what the source did to them (to make sure
they had no competition for selling mice?) but after that, I got some stock from other sources, a mixture of fancy mice that have done well ever since (other than the
few silkies/satins, which I attribute to them being more inbred). The first ones were white mice btw, & I've had very few white mice over the years that are as prolific as
the other varieties.

My Blood has issues with Frozen as well. The pet store owner told me sometimes alternating dead and live will help to get them on F/T he said feed live then feed frozen until he wont eat.. then go live again, and then go frozen till he wont eat. He said that over time you should be able to switch him.

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Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

I would be extremely hesitant to include a wheel in a feeder mouse enclosure. Generally, they have plenty to do for stimulation with their offspring and chewables that it isn't needed. Additionally, I've seen some pretty gnarly posts resulting from the use of them in the feeder groups I'm in.

Some mice are obsessive and will run nonstop to the point of neglecting to feed babies. Others try and nest beneath wheels and can catch and throw babies across the cage when they run (more death).

Using one may work for some, but it seems too risky to me. Not to mention nowhere near enough room in the lab style caging for typical wheels.

Your smell issue was likely exacerbated by using an aquarium. Both rats and mice have high levels of ammonia in their urine and it tends to remain heavier than air and stay put at the bottom of the tank compared to shorter tubs. The lower height let's air across the top lift it enough for some to escape and dissipate intk a larger air volume whereas it all tends to stay inside of an aquarium. Also, while rats are more susceptible to RI from the lack of sifficient ventilation taller aquariums have (mostly anything over 6-8"), mice can be effected as well. If the smell is horrible to a human, it is far worse for them and the bigger consequence is from breathing the ammonia that causes the smell. Most feeder breeders strongly advise against glass for mice and rats because of that.

Also, if there are any feeder or pet line breeders anywhere near you, it is well worth even a 2 hour one-time drive to get pet quality animals. Just because some mice are pet store animals does not make then good pets. Mice from pet stores tend to be bitey, chew plastic (typically not possible with lab cages as those are designed without any edges to grip, mostly an issue for DIY tubs), and many are predisposed to killing their litters or cage mates inexplicably when establishing the colony.

I've been lucky my mice are only super skittish and not biters or chewers or baby munchers. Mice can be very tricky to get breeding from general pet store lines, though some areas seem to be much worse than others.

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Thank You didn't realize these things. I didn't do it very long. I humbly exit. Sometime you can teach an old dog new tricks. That's why I come here, that is to learn too. I do think the OP should go for it though, and I want to encourage him. glad he has some of you who have had more knowledge and or experience that can get him going right if he decides to try it.

Honestly with the size of your collection if it was me I would concentrate my effort in switching to F/T so afterward you can buy bulk online and and in the meantime try to find an cheaper source (CL, reptile specialty stores etc).

Breeding is not pleasant it does smell and it is extra work and if you plan to keep live adult mice around until eaten the smell and the cost will increase.

I do breed mice however most are euthanized and froze before adulthood (unless hold back breeders).

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Honestly with the size of your collection if it was me I would concentrate my effort in switching to F/T so afterward you can buy bulk online and and in the meantime try to find an cheaper source (CL, reptile specialty stores etc).

Breeding is not pleasant it does smell and it is extra work and if you plan to keep live adult mice around until eaten the smell and the cost will increase.

I do breed mice however most are euthanized and froze before adulthood (unless hold back breeders).

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Yeah, I'm really kinda up in the air here. Juice is just a PAIN with eating F/T reliably. Otherwise breeding mice wouldn't even be on my radar.
I'll be weighing out pros/cons before making a decision.

Thanks for your thoughts! I always appreciate your guidance.

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Yeah, I'm really kinda up in the air here. Juice is just a PAIN with eating F/T reliably. Otherwise breeding mice wouldn't even be on my radar.
I'll be weighing out pros/cons before making a decision.

Thanks for your thoughts! I always appreciate your guidance.

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Bear in mind that most snakes in captivity are overfed, so you may have to engage in some tough love and wait him out. Once he's hungry enough he'll eat; snakes in the wild can't be picky.

Heck we know how picky ball pythons can be about eating, but I've had neglected adult rescues take f/t chicks, go figure. When they are hungry enough they will eat.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Bear in mind that most snakes in captivity are overfed, so you may have to engage in some tough love and wait him out. Once he's hungry enough he'll eat; snakes in the wild can't be picky.

Heck we know how picky ball pythons can be about eating, but I've had neglected adult rescues take f/t chicks, go figure. When they are hungry enough they will eat.

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Yeah, I've been using the tough love approach. I'll wait him out here and there. Especially when I see a shed coming. He just won't take F/T with any consistency.
He was still maintaining a good body structure. But after his poop/pee he's down almost 300 grams and looking a bit thin. But I'm not sweating it, he's not unhealthy by any means.