Have you ever given up on a hatchling who won't eat?

We have a hatchling we have been unable to get eating. Way below i've outlined what we've tried as i'm sure people will be interested to know, considering how serious the question is. Assist feeding does not work, and we have now force fed twice. I will provide more details below of everything we have done for clarity, but please know that this was NOT done lightly and was an absolute last resort.

My question is, at what point do you give up on a hatchling? Or do you stick to it and they eventually get there?

This is the first time one of our snakes has shown no interest whatsoever. The breeder who mentored us said that snakes like that aren't meant to be, but he can be a bit 'bottom line' about breeding and not quite on the same page as us there... We want to keep trying and not give up, but we're also not sure when it's time to say we're just prolonging the inevitable... :-(

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Below I've outlined husbandry and details of what we've tried, as well as a note about how force feeding should not be done unless the situation is dire.

We've had to assist feed babies before, but they always start taking food after one feeding, twice at the very most. We had been taught how to force feed when we were taught assist feeding, but we have never had to do it until recently. We did not force feed lightly and did it is a last resort, just to try and prevent further weight loss. The hatchling was 2 months old when we first tried to assist feed, and had been losing weight regularly. They had lost 13% of their body weight. They were very thin with an pronounced ridge back and visibly sagging skin. We have a sterilized area and large sterilized tweezers that we solely use for this purpose. We have had to do this before (originally supervised and taught by our mentor). To reiterate this for anyone who may read this in future, it is the absolute last resort and should only be done by a vet or if you have been taught by someone how to do so. It is NOT something you do if your snake (especially one who has eaten before) is just refusing a few meals.

If you want to know what we've tried and husbandry. I've outlined it all below. Everything done below was done before we even attempted to assist feed. Also, while this may sound like a lot, it has been done over the course of almost 3 months now (2 months till we tried assist). We have been sure not to bug the hatchling or handle them excessively (we haven't even sexed them yet). Temps are 88-90 on the warm side, 78-80 cool side, ambient air temp at 80-84, humidity at 75-80%. We use a rack system in a dark, quiet room of the house. Most hatchlings we have no issues getting to eat.

Done before Assist/Force Feed. Some done multiple times.:
- live fuzzy
- f/t asf
- hair dryer
- braining
- chicken soup scented
- bedding change (paper towels to coconut mulch)
- leaving in f/t overnight
- defrosted with rats (scenting)
- in their own room (so not even being bugged when we check on our other snakes)
- different hide sizes (all appropriately sizes, though some just slightly smaller/shorter than others)
- different enclosure (smaller)
- putting in very small enclosure (paper bag) with live fuzzy
- feedings were attempted at different times of day (from early AM to getting up in middle of the night)

Again, we've never had this much difficulty getting a hatchling to eat. We have offered live and f/t since force feeding and no interest whatsoever and we're getting very nervous about him/her.

In addition, we wanted to add that their digestion seems to be working fine. They have had four pees (2 after yolk absorption, 1 each in the week after force feeding). No other abnormal behaviour that we have observed, no physical deformities that we have observed. The baby did come from a very abnormal clutch, which is outlined here in a previous post on the forum that we were looking for advice on... This baby has been a big roller coaster ride :-(

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Originally Posted by Gemini Pythons

Assist feeding does not work, and we have now force fed twice.
My question is, at what point do you give up on a hatchling?

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Answer: Never.
I will offer food once/week (after first shed).
After aprox. one month of non-eating (after-first shed) I will then offer once per week. If the food item is not eaten in 15 minutes I will force feed a pre-killed prey item a little smaller than the widest part of the snakes head.

For long-term non-eaters (3+ months): Once/month I will leave the food item (small live mouse-with rodent blocks) in the enclosure overnight and see if it is taken---Otherwise I will go back to force feeding weekly for another month.

When I say 'force feeding'-just to be clear, I am not talking tubing (that is different). I am talking assist feeding and then gently applying continuous pressure with dull forceps to gently force the food down to a point that the snake has difficulty expelling it. Out of hundreds of hatchlings/year-I sometimes end up with dozens of non-eaters (they tend to be from the same clutches).

I have not lost a single ball python hatchling using this feeding method. I also buy non-eating ball python hatchlings at expos on a regular basis. My latest non-eating acquisition was a GHI for $20 last year. Took 4 months of force feeding to get him to eat. He is playing the 'catch up' game now.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ked_466301.jpg

Note: All my problem eaters are only offered live food until they are established.

Thank you so much, that's amazing to hear. We're perfectly content to keep at it until he or she snags! We just didn't want to do so (causing undue stress to the animal) without first hearing that it IS possible to eventually get them onto food.
And yes, our force feeding is the same as you described with the dull forceps! (we were taught 'assist feeding' was just getting the food into the mouth and letting them coil and swallow, force feeding is getting the prey item down their throat and massaging it to a point where they can't spit it back out).

Thank you so much again :-)

You mention live fuzzy, is this a fuzzy rat? I've heard from talking with breeders that some BPs just don't cue off of that little movement and do better with same-size hopper mice.

So, things I didn't see in your list that would be worth trying:
1. Live hopper mouse
2. Live hopper mouse or fuzzy rat scented with ASF
3. Live ASF

Also might help someone with more experience to have more details of your rack and tubs.
- What size tubs? (Dimensions or common model i.e. V-18, 6qt, etc.)
- Clear or opaque?
- 1 hide or 2 hides?
- Substrate? (Paper towels or something they can burrow into?)

What else is in the room as far as smell goes? Any dogs/cats, any non-feeder rodents (like gerbils?) that this one may be waiting for, any larger lizards or other potentially intimidating smells, any odd chemicals used in the area like lysol wipes on non-reptile furniture or anything like that.

I haven't worked with newborns as of yet, but I do have one finicky eater and when she does take f/t for me, I cannot be at all visible in the room (even 8 ft away not moving), it must be very dark, and if I move her tub closed or at all unless it is mid-strike she will drop her meal and refuse to eat that week. (She will take live and when it is struggling still, I can slide the tub closed and leave the room before she notices. If she sees me through the tub via heat she will also drop and refuse to feed)

On that thought, have you attempting being around a corner from the tub so as to be not visible? Or considered that the movement of the tub may be startling this one out of feeding mode? And what time of day/brightness in the room do you feed?

Not all of these need answers, but some brainstorming for other ideas that you can try if you hadn't thought of it before.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

While I agree that many more snakes don't make it in nature, I'm not inclined to give up either. In the past, I've kept but NOT bred BPs, so I'm speaking of my
experience with many other kinds of snakes OTHER than BPs, just to be clear. I've never been a fan of force-feeding, but have used tube-feeding with success
many times & for many things, including tiny colubrid hatchlings. Done correctly, tube-feeding is much gentler, and doesn't have the disadvantage of making a
snake's normal rodent prey seem to be the aggressor. I'll send you a PM with more info to consider.

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

Answer: Never.
I will offer food once/week (after first shed).
After aprox. one month of non-eating (after-first shed) I will then offer once per week. If the food item is not eaten in 15 minutes I will force feed a pre-killed prey item a little smaller than the widest part of the snakes head.

For long-term non-eaters (3+ months): Once/month I will leave the food item (small live mouse-with rodent blocks) in the enclosure overnight and see if it is taken---Otherwise I will go back to force feeding weekly for another month.

When I say 'force feeding'-just to be clear, I am not talking tubing (that is different). I am talking assist feeding and then gently applying continuous pressure with dull forceps to gently force the food down to a point that the snake has difficulty expelling it. Out of hundreds of hatchlings/year-I sometimes end up with dozens of non-eaters (they tend to be from the same clutches).

I have not lost a single ball python hatchling using this feeding method. I also buy non-eating ball python hatchlings at expos on a regular basis. My latest non-eating acquisition was a GHI for $20 last year. Took 4 months of force feeding to get him to eat. He is playing the 'catch up' game now.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ked_466301.jpg

Note: All my problem eaters are only offered live food until they are established.

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Can you come and mentor me? [emoji2311]
You sound like the snake feeding guru!
I have no problem feeding live, but I try to feed all my snakes thawed, and it’s very frustrating, as it is so much more difficult to get them to constrict.

I have been feeding thawed for years, but still there some of my snakes just don’t want to eat anything but live prey. Or they will eat, but I have to go to extreme lengths to get them to take thawed.

Also, nice GHI rescue. Looking fab

I would try a small live hopper mouse. Put it in the enclosure with complete darkness in the room and in the enclosure. Then when you can't see a thing get to the side wheres your snake can't see you and just listen and wait. If you hear the mouse squeal then you will know it worked. Wait a bit for it, if there is no squeal then turn on the lights and check on things. I would give it a fair chance though first. Some snakes would rather eat in complete darkness, you can't see a thing darkness. Letting the smell of the feeder be in the room beforehand is a great help.

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

Can you come and mentor me? [emoji2311]
You sound like the snake feeding guru!
I have no problem feeding live, but I try to feed all my snakes thawed, and it’s very frustrating, as it is so much more difficult to get them to constrict.

I have been feeding thawed for years, but still there some of my snakes just don’t want to eat anything but live prey. Or they will eat, but I have to go to extreme lengths to get them to take thawed.

Also, nice GHI rescue. Looking fab

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If your willing to let your feeder thaw partially if not completely above the enclosure where your snake can smell them you will find a BIG difference in getting them to eat f/t. Mine now responds in such a way that by the time I have thawed ( 2 - 2 1/2 hrs.) and then heated it, she's practically coming out the top trap door waiting to eat.

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Originally Posted by ballpythonsrock2

I would try a small live hopper mouse. Put it in the enclosure with complete darkness in the room and in the enclosure. Then when you can't see a thing get to the side wheres your snake can't see you and just listen and wait. If you hear the mouse squeal then you will know it worked. Wait a bit for it, if there is no squeal then turn on the lights and check on things. I would give it a fair chance though first. Some snakes would rather eat in complete darkness, you can't see a thing darkness. Letting the smell of the feeder be in the room beforehand is a great help.

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I agree...feed live if you need to get a neonate/hatchling going...that's how nature programmed them.

Some snakes are still too timid & what has worked for me is to put a larger & heavy flat-bottomed pet bowl in the cage...something with sides that are 2.5"-3" deep,
that the live mouse/or rat crawler can't escape from. Leave this in dark cage overnight...many snakes feel braver if they can get a little above the prey to pounce on
them, as they can from the edge of this bowl (without tipping over the bowl). They have all night for the smell of prey nearby to entice them, & eventually they get
brave enough to search for it. Also, the prey doesn't get "lost" or tangled up in substrate this way, & with a first-time feeding, some timid snakes are put off by the
least little things. While nature is not this helpful to "wusses", as our pets we can manipulate things until they eat & gain enough confidence to keep eating. :snake:

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Originally Posted by ballpythonsrock2

If your willing to let your feeder thaw partially if not completely above the enclosure where your snake can smell them you will find a BIG difference in getting them to eat f/t. Mine now responds in such a way that by the time I have thawed ( 2 - 2 1/2 hrs.) and then heated it, she's practically coming out the top trap door waiting to eat.

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Yes. I do that. The problem is I am a breeder and have over 40 ball pythons, and many are great eaters of thawed, but many are not!

I haven't had to assist feed neonate ball pythons but I have with BRB's. The longest was just over a year; she was from a weak premature litter where only two survived and there were lots of stills and slugs. The larger of the two was assist fed a few times, the smaller had absorbed very little yolk and was about half the size of a healthy neonate.

They were actually too small for even a mouse pinky so I started them on a hind leg cut from a f/t mouse hopper. That was fairly easy to feed since I would bend the leg at the hock joint and insert that into the snake's mouth. The baby couldn't spit it out easily since the leg would open up and get stuck in the jaws behind the teeth. Once the neonates got a little bigger I would chain a whole prey feeder such as a mouse pinky, fuzzy, etc. behind the hind leg. With practice I could get the process done in under five minutes.

Thank you for all the helpful suggestions! A few more question were asked, so i'll answer those:

So, things I didn't see in your list that would be worth trying:
1. Live hopper mouse - We did try a live hopper as well (technically they were a fuzzy based on weight, but we picked them as they were really just a runty hopper- eyes open, more active). It didn't work and actually just stressed the baby out (trying to escape their tub)
2. Live hopper mouse or fuzzy rat scented with ASF - This is a great suggestion and we'll try it out!
3. Live ASF - We are unable to get live ASF in our area

Also might help someone with more experience to have more details of your rack and tubs.
- What size tubs? (Dimensions or common model i.e. V-18, 6qt, etc.) We have tried VE108-8 and Iris MCB-SS shoebox. Currently using a VE 108-8 as it is darker and more snug. No behaviour observed that would indicate tub size is a stress factor.
- Clear or opaque? Semi-opaque (we can see blurry movement or an outline in there if a snake at the front, but otherwise nothing)
- 1 hide or 2 hides? 2 hides
- Substrate? (Paper towels or something they can burrow into?) We have tried paper towels and coconut bedding

What else is in the room as far as smell goes? Any dogs/cats, any non-feeder rodents (like gerbils?) that this one may be waiting for, any larger lizards or other potentially intimidating smells, any odd chemicals used in the area like lysol wipes on non-reptile furniture or anything like that. None. We have a dog and cat, but they are not allowed in the room the baby is in. We disinfect with F10

I haven't worked with newborns as of yet, but I do have one finicky eater and when she does take f/t for me, I cannot be at all visible in the room (even 8 ft away not moving), it must be very dark, and if I move her tub closed or at all unless it is mid-strike she will drop her meal and refuse to eat that week. (She will take live and when it is struggling still, I can slide the tub closed and leave the room before she notices. If she sees me through the tub via heat she will also drop and refuse to feed) We have tried to minimize our presence as much as possible during feeding (whenever possible we close the tub and leave the room. The room is dark. Interestingly, the baby has never been fearful of us. It was a shock that they have been such a bad eater. They were very calm and not fearful from the get-go (no hiding if they saw us, in times we've had to handle them, they behave as i would hope a snake does- calm and curious, but not trying to get away or balled up)

On that thought, have you attempting being around a corner from the tub so as to be not visible? Or considered that the movement of the tub may be startling this one out of feeding mode? And what time of day/brightness in the room do you feed? Yes,we have. We have also tried feeding at basically every time of day. Morning, noon, afternoon, evening, night, middle of the night. We feed all of our snakes after 10pm regularly.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I haven't had to assist feed neonate ball pythons but I have with BRB's. The longest was just over a year; she was from a weak premature litter where only two survived and there were lots of stills and slugs. The larger of the two was assist fed a few times, the smaller had absorbed very little yolk and was about half the size of a healthy neonate.

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Wow, when she finally snagged you must have been over the moon!! Thank you!! We'll be doing the same then if it's what the baby needs! :-)

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Originally Posted by ballpythonsrock2

I would try a small live hopper mouse. Put it in the enclosure with complete darkness in the room and in the enclosure. Then when you can't see a thing get to the side wheres your snake can't see you and just listen and wait. If you hear the mouse squeal then you will know it worked. Wait a bit for it, if there is no squeal then turn on the lights and check on things. I would give it a fair chance though first. Some snakes would rather eat in complete darkness, you can't see a thing darkness. Letting the smell of the feeder be in the room beforehand is a great help.

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We have done this. We got a runty hopper (so fuzzy sized, but with open eyes and much more movement) and it TERRIFIED the hatchling. They're normally quite chill (they aren't shy around us and are normally quite curious and alert, but never frantic). I left the mouse in and waited for the tell tale squeaks. Nothing. I gave it an hour, checked, and the hatchling was at the front of their tub desperately trying to escape. We've stuck to fuzzies since. The hatchling is quite small (not a runt, but a little below average size) so hopper would be too big.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I agree...feed live if you need to get a neonate/hatchling going...that's how nature programmed them.

Some snakes are still too timid & what has worked for me is to put a larger & heavy flat-bottomed pet bowl in the cage...something with sides that are 2.5"-3" deep,
that the live mouse/or rat crawler can't escape from. Leave this in dark cage overnight...many snakes feel braver if they can get a little above the prey to pounce on
them, as they can from the edge of this bowl (without tipping over the bowl). :snake:

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Twice when trying to feed fuzzies we put them in a bowl as you described, and we have left overnight once. The hatchling seemed to fear a hopper when we put one in, but once we found him and the fuzzy both curled up together on the hot side of the enclosure, looking pleased as can be. It seems like he just isn't recognizing the mice as prey, but no scenting we've done has changed this.

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Originally Posted by Gemini Pythons

Twice when trying to feed fuzzies we put them in a bowl as you described, and we have left overnight once. The hatchling seemed to fear a hopper when we put one in, but once we found him and the fuzzy both curled up together on the hot side of the enclosure, looking pleased as can be. It seems like he just isn't recognizing the mice as prey, but no scenting we've done has changed this.

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And have you tried scenting with hamsters or gerbils? Many BPs really like those too, & easier to come by (usually) than ASF's.

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Originally Posted by Gemini Pythons

Wow, when she finally snagged you must have been over the moon!! Thank you!! We'll be doing the same then if it's what the baby needs! :-)

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Even now she still won't feed off tongs. I have to leave the feeder at the entrance to her hide, close up the tub, walk away, and check back in an hour. I've never actually seen her strike, wrap, or eat yet.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

And have you tried scenting with hamsters or gerbils? Many BPs really like those too, & easier to come by (usually) than ASF's.

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We haven't, and great idea! We did some talking today with local friends, and they tipped us off to a place in the country that does delivery once a month to our city and sometimes has live ASF. So hopefully we'll be able to try live ASF soon!!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

And have you tried scenting with hamsters or gerbils? Many BPs really like those too, & easier to come by (usually) than ASF's.

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Agreed. I have pet gerbils and scenting with used bedding has worked to convert 2 of my stubborn live eaters to frozen and inexplicably a mouser to regular rats with only 1 or 2 scented meals.

I know some find gerbils to be a bad plan for scenting, but certainly won't hurt if all else has not worked.

I would probably try scenting with thawed ASF first since it is their more typical wild prey. Even a thawed ASF if thawed dry should have enough smell for it. If live are hard to come by, you definitely don't want to get a baby that only takes them live if you can't regularly source them.

When scenting I've always seen to rub it on the back of a feeder, but I notice my snakes like to check the privates when unsure of if it is food or not, so I'd probably try an all-over scenting or focus on where their scent glands would be if possible. For added effect, blow drying the asf in the room and scenting that strongly like asf before offering the disguised the fuzzy rat may get a better result too.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I have had a few that needed assist feeding in the past. As was said you never just give up on them but I will also say that not all make it. I also have used mice or soft furs to get stubborn feeders to eat and then switch them over to rats.

Other alternative prey items to try include quail ( though I have never had much luck with them ) or a thigh from a day old chick.

I've also used rat tails in the past but, as with assist feeding, they seem to get a lot less growth out of it - I always wondered if it was down to the stress with assisting and the nutritional breakdown of rat tails.

But I agree on never giving up - one day the lightbulb will go on in their heads. :)