Considering Breeding Feeders

My snake population is about ready to go from 1 to 5 snakes in the next week or so. I currently feed 2 adult mice a week to my male. It currently costs me about from 1.49 to 1.99/mouse, and buying only 2 mice a week is fine. 10 Mice a week is a different story, and with the ability to feed smaller rats, might switch over to rats.

What I'm looking for is some advice about what to breed (mice or rats), if I even SHOULD breed.. if it'd be worth it, How many of what to get for breeder stock, what kind of caging I should use... (I've got a 20g wide glass aquarium that I'll have free after my rack gets here).

I would like any and all advice you can give.

Thanks

Ken, I've been raising my own since I started and that was only having one snake at the time. While it has gotten alot more cost effective to be raising my own since I have more snakes now it still did help then when rodents where harder to get a hold of especially with no one local.

I have mainly kept mice and a few rats but am slowly shifting the balance to be heavier on the rat side...there are alot of advantages: MUCH less smell, much more variety of sizes, nutritional value (?), and did I mention less smell?? If you can get away with it I'd say rats are the way to go if you don't need anything smaller than a rat pup for any of your reptiles. I still need pinkie mice so I keep just a couple females now. If you selectively breed or find a strain known for large litters you can produce pretty good numbers.

I keep mine in big tubs, same advantages as with reptiles in tubs. Easy to move, clean, etc. Just have to watch for chewing and make sure you use tubs that don't have any lips or edges they can easily get to. I haven't had any mice or rats chew out of any tubs yet and I just use steralite. There was another topic where it was mentioned using big paper clasps to hold the lids on..definately a must to secure the lid. If your going to be using glass I'm sure there are other things you can use to keep the lid secure.

For feeding I use a combination of the Kaytee blocks which can be purchased online for MUCH cheaper than you will see in any store plus you get a 10% discount for 3 bags or more..they are only 2.5lb bags but still worth it for me I just order alot of them. I feed that in combination with seed diet (not alot) daily vegetables and some fruits as we have them in the house.

We've gone the local purchasing of live route for awhile....$2.00 per mouse, $4.00 per rat! Way to expensive for the ball pythons. Now we are feeding a combination of live for the ones that won't take f/t and f/t for the rest (quite price effective through The Mouse Factory).

Quite honestly though when we move in the spring and have more room I'll be breeding rats as we aren't seeing quite the same level of feeding response in the snakes since the switch to f/t. They are doing okay but definitely not as strong feeders as they were before the switch (except for Brann who will eat anything, anytime, anywhere LOL).

I do have a couple of hopefully pregnant female rats right now so we'll see how this small experiment goes.

Rats don't tend to smell anywhere near the level of mice. I believe there was a thread somewhere in the forum about adding vanilla to their water bottles to keep even their minimal smell down a bit more. Good husbandry like with any creature always helps with any of their natural odor.

I mix my own rat food from a combination of lab block, seeds, nuts, dry cereal, large flake oatmeal and a bit of good quality dry dog food (cost effective and little to no waste). They get fresh veggies from whatever is in my fridge as well as leftover pasta, bones, etc. Just avoid any citrus fruits and very high protien dry dog kibble. Once per week they get an end slice of bread dipped in a bit of olive oil (split amongst them) which keeps their coat quality fantastic.

There are some great sites online for homemade rat mixes as well as foods to avoid for rats (check the fancy rat breeder sites mostly for this).


~~Jo~~

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

(check the fancy rat breeder sites mostly for this).

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Yeah, I looked at a few sites online, and they didn't seem to be too enthusiastic about breeding for feeding purposes :).

Thanks for the tips, guys. Do you think it's cost effective for me to start raising rodents for 5 snakes? Seems to me, there'll always be the issue of not always having the right size. If I get three to four females in order to stagger breedings, I'd have WAYYY too many, it seems. With litter sizes in the 15 area, I could use 10 per week, if I fed small weanlings or the smaller pups... then I guess I could use the remaining 5 the following week as either large weanlings or small rats.... (Sorry, just thinking out loud... or I guess out-type :) )

My rat litter sizes average 10.

I'd go ahead with 5 snakes.

How is your breeding-project coming along? I just purchased a male and two female mice from the feed store near my home, and am looking forward to seeing some babies soon. Apparently one of the females is already pregnant (I honestly can't tell yet), so said the lady at the store. I've got them in a large Kritter Keeper with some rodent feed and a water-bottle on pine-shavings for a substrate. I'm tempted to go to the Wal-Mart down the road and pick up some Sterilite drawers to start populating with mice, and eventually rats as Mr. Bojangles grows. Are exercise wheels a good idea for breeders, or would that just be unnecessary? I figure healthy and active breeders couldn't be a bad idea, but I wasn't sure if these are usually reserved for people who keep mice as pets.

Also, is the rodent mix alone sufficient for food (corn, alfalfa meal, oats, sunflower seeds, mollasses, etc.), or should I start picking up a couple apples and carrots for these guys? If I do go with fruits/vegies, which are ideal?

Thanks alot guys, you're all very helpful to me!

Hiya, I finally found a topic I wanted to post! Yay!!
I was thinking of breeding mice, but honestly, everything points to me doing rats instead. How much space would a breeder rat need? Should you keep the male and female together or just put the male in when she needs to be bred?
Just a tip from when I used to raise Siberian Dwarf hamsters.. they normally LOVE those paper towel rolls and toliet paper rolls, wrapping paper rolls would work as well. They will carry them, hide in them, chew on them, etc etc. Cheap 'toy' to keep them busy not chewing on the cage, and you don't relaly tend to feel you are providing 'toys' to feeders.
Love this board!!! Love love love IT
Wolfy

[QUOTE=IamKaervek]
Also, is the rodent mix alone sufficient for food (corn, alfalfa meal, oats, sunflower seeds, mollasses, etc.)[QUOTE]

Out of all of that mix, rats can digest only 3 of those... The corn is dangerous as it usually has mold associated with it. They can't digest alfalfa as they have no extended cecum as horses do. The oats are good, but the sunflower seeds contain so much fat.

It is NOT a good diet to feed anything since it isn't a complete feed. Lab blocks or making your own mix will save you so much money and your rats will provide you with bigger, healthier litters. Plus, they won't pick through the food mix that you make and only eat what they like.

If Mr. Bojangles is indeed a male, he can stay on 1-2 mice per week the rest of his life and be extremely healthy. I raise mice and keep them in my garage. I have 1.2 in a 10 gallon tank, on aspen bedding, water bottle, cardboard tubes/boxes, paper towels/newspaper for fun stuff to tear up, and Harlan Teklad 18% rodent diet for food, as well as some good-quality dog food every so often.

I have about 15 female mice in various stages of growth in another 10-gallon in the garage, as well as 2 feeder males in another borrowed lab cage. They all get fed lab blocks, are kept on the same bedding and etc.

A wheel would be good, but get a solid surface wheel, not the grid kind as those have been known to dislocate joints, break bones and deglove tails. Not a pretty thing. It will keep them from being bored(the wheel), but it's not necessary.

I wouldn't house any sort of rodent in the drawer-type sterilites. They will chew out/escape, and besides, the ammonia levels in their urine is just so high anyway, the ventilation would be an issue. I suggest a 10-gallon tank with screen top.

Well the fancy rat breeder's sites don't much care for those of us that breed for feeders but they are very handy for information and foods and so forth.

http://www.rattiusmaximus.com/ratcare.htm#dangerous

This is a great article, very long and detailed and some isn't realistic for a breeder rat colony maybe but still I found it helpful if you are feeding stuff other than straight lab block.

Other than a dry mix I toss together weekly, lab block included, our rats just get anything going basically as long as it's okay for them to eat it...stuff like leftover pizza crusts, bones from chicken or steak, pasta, ends of bread loaves dunked in a bit of olive oil, whatever fruits and veggies are in the fridge (no citrus fruits tho). I don't buy for them special...I just use up stuff around the house. Bit of tuna left in the can, frozen peas, the occasional live very tiny feeder goldfish (fun but messy)......that sort of stuff.

Okay they are breeder rats but I spoil em rotten and I know it! LOL


~~Jo~~


~~Jo~~

Well, rather than to start another thread, here I am again contemplating STARTING breeding rats again. The 5 snakes that I had when I started this thread is about to go to 19. I'm getting a shipment of 10 normal females and 2.1 het albino and 1.0 albino.

So here's my question. With the 19 snakes (Jake eats small rats already), what would you recommend as far as a staggering program. What do I need to get started? If litter sizes average 10 or so (as April said earlier), then I'll need two of them to pop every week so as to have enough weans and smalls all at the same time.

I was looking on RDR's site as far as how he keeps 1.6 in a tub, and then seperates out the preggo females into their own tub.

What age (size) rats do I need to start? What size tubs? Will smalls breed, or should I get mediums or larges to start? The smalls are around 65-80g in my local pet stores that I "frequent".

I have a good "backup" feed store that just saved me a buck a mouse, which is rather significant on 18 mice a week! SO... it's not VITAL that I have my own stock available all the time, but it WOULD save a ton of dough.

I don't really have a good place to raise said rats either. I have plenty of room in my herp room, but I'd really rather not raise them in the same room as I keep my snakes. Seems like there would be sensory overload. How much space is required for what we're talking about?

Lastly, my weekly pet store run is costing me $22.00 a week. So, keeping 1.6 ratties, or 2.10 or so, what would you think my weekly costs associated with raising rats would be? Will I be saving money? Will it be enough to offset having to change bedding, water/feed the new addtions?

Thanks for any and all suggestions. :)

well if you want staggered litters then you have to have staggered breeding... so keeping perhaps 2 females in each enclosure and moving the male from one to the other every week. so that would require 8 females in 4 tubs.

females need to be 6 months old to breed and stop breeding around a year.

rats are so expensive to buy that it would def. be cheaper to breed your own for that many snakes... even if you order online live rats, you'll still need to feed and house them until they are 'snacks' so IMO breeding would be less costly.

we use the mix from this page:

http://www.rattiusmaximus.com/ratcare.htm

and as jo pointed out... rat groups don't want to hear about breeding for food...unless it's a forum specifically for herpers with rats.

Rats can actually breed at 4 months, not 6. They are medium sized.

What you can do is have one male per about ten females. Rotate them so that five females are with the male for about two weeks, then separate them all to their own tubs (you can get lab style mouse cages for one female rat) until they have their babies, then put the other five in with the male for two weeks. If you have several males and you rotate different females with the different males every week, you'll have a staggered breeding program.

There is no problem with raising the rats in the herp room. I did it for months with no problem.

I feed my rats dog food. I have five breeder tubs. One male and three females with their litters per tub. Two extra tubs are grow outs with about 20 females now in one bin and 30 males in the other. All around it's about 100 rats. I spend roughly $50 a month on dog food for them. I get HUGE bags of compressed pine shavings for them. The bags are for bedding horse stalls. The bags are $7.. lasts a couple months.

Shelby,

Im sure you already know that pine and cedar shavings are as bad for rodents as they are for reptiles. Both beddings tend to give rodents respiratory infections. As these pass fast between rodents it will infect them all really fast.

I use a combo of aspen and long shredded paper. Used to use shredded cardboard but it seemed to give them RI's as well.

For 5 snakes you may not want to go with 10 rats. Youll fill your freezer up fast with pups.

For the pet rat sites just dont post anything about you having snakes or respond to threads about rats as feeders. My breeders are actually pets (their young is food). And treating your breeeders as pets will help to keep them healthy and producing well. The point they stop becoming pets is when they need to go to the vet. At that point they go into the freezer for a month.

Bryan

Yes, I know that pine can be bad for them. My cages all have a lot of ventilation and the cages are kept clean so I have had no problems with it. I wasn't going to use it until someone else here (can't remember who now) told me they used it and it was fine as long as there was good airflow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bdadawg

For 5 snakes you may not want to go with 10 rats. Youll fill your freezer up fast with pups.

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I will need enough to feed 19 snakes. And I'd really rather not have too much waste.... I'd like to develop where I don't have enough rather than too many... (I know, that sounds backwards.) I was thinking that if I had females that would give me an average litter size of around 12 or so, then if I could POSSIBLY get them to pop about a week apart from each other.... that would be super sweet...

If I got two that popped the same week, I could feed two pups one week and one wean the next to use up the surplus I guess... as long as they were getting approximately the same weight in food each week, it wouldn't be a problem.

pine and cedar shavings have an oil which is really bad for rodents. keeping them in either one is not good for them at all... regardless of the amount of ventilation you have for them.

and feeding them straight dog food isn't good either... although dog food is a good additon to their diet (but watch that the protein levels aren't too high)

creating healthy food for our snakes is important to the health of our snake... AND since the critters are all in our care, we need to put their needs (esp. critical needs) high on our priority list.

I don't feed straight dog food. I feed the diet that my pet rat breeder recommended to me. 1/2 dog food and the other half a cereal mixture of puffed rice/wheat, cheerios, oats, and tri color pasta.

I take very good care of my rats. I believe it was Adam who told me that most commercial feeder breeders use pine. I could be wrong, but that is what my brain is telling me. :)

I would not consider using cedar.

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Originally Posted by Shelby

I believe it was Adam who told me that most commercial feeder breeders use pine. I could be wrong, but that is what my brain is telling me. :)

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What a coincidence! I just got back from cleaning rats at my buddy's rat barn. There were 5 of us working and I cleaned about 400 weaner tubs and 100 breeder tubs (just to give you a sense of the size of the operation). All of the rats are and have been kept on pine shavings for years and they are all robust healthy animals.

-adam

Ah thanks Adam. I am not going crazy after all.. at least not my memory. :P

Ken,

The difference is in the feeder vs. pet rat issue. Maybe this will help you to decide.....

Peek had her babies on the 2nd, (gestation being 21-28 days. Hers was around 24 or so). The babies didn't qualify as fuzzies until 8-9th. Eyes open around 15 days. She started weaning them at 3 weeks, they were popcorning all over the tank. I took Peek out @ the 3 weeks, but all the fanciers will tell you wean no younger than 4 weeks, 5 is best....but at 4 & 5 weeks, the pups are mature enough to breed each other.

If you want SPECIFIC dates/sizes, I have them on my calendar at home. This was my first rat litter, so I tried to take notes on dates etc. so I can do better next time.

Yesterday (Friday) for $41.90 I got a 20 oz CO2 canister, on/off valve and small screwed on hose and made ratscicles. I tried feeding the snakes, right after putting the pups down, but they both refused. On the 19th I had fed one ea. to Wrigley (150g) and Pissy (250g) and they jumped right on the live babies. Wrigley had F/T before I bought him, but Pissy's always been live. I'm going to try to get Wrigley back onto the FT and change Pissy's diet now. It's also possible that since 3 weeks age was the right size, they were now a little too big for a meal so soon after the one onthe 19th. I dunno. *shrugs*

For 19 snakes you may want to consider that yes, you'll have quite a few babies all the same size but for the first two weeks or so, they'll probably be too small to feed yet.

I was using aspen, but went to pine for the rats, since the babies were intended as feeders all along. The other 4 (weeeeellllll okay, now 3---I got tired of Petunia biting me and this last time she took after ME taking a hunk out of my finger, so she's in the freezer now) are pets.

For health, it's suggested to give the doe a couple of weeks between litters in order for her to recuperate. I've saved one female from Peek's litter, but won't breed her until she's got more size----at about 4-5 mo. So for my 3 snakes, I'll have to plan on buying some more, but I'm hoping that in a month or so, I won't have to buy except occasionally.

I hope this helps a bit. Good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

females need to be 6 months old to breed and stop breeding around a year.

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Rats can breed as early as 6 weeks old, however it is not really good for them. Breeding can be done as early as 4 months, if she is a good size and not a tiny thing. And they do not stop breeding at around a year, in fact, when I was running my rattery, I had many females over that age breeding just fine. Rats tend to breed most of thier lives, which are short to begin with. They live up to 5 years supposedly, but I have never actually had one live past 3 or too much longer than that. Last week we lost one of our females, she was about 2 yrs old, she was fine prior to that, eating, etc.. then the next morning we found her dead. A necropsy was done,for my own informational purposes, and she actually had cancer inside her body that did not show outside. They are prone to cancers because of genetics and can be fine one day, and dead the next, without you ever knowing what happened to them unless you get a necropsy. Also, it is really a good idea to breed your female before they hit 9 months old, because thier pelvic cavity closes off enough after that age if they have never been bred, and later, if trying to birth babies, they get stuck.

oh thanks jeanne! someone on this site told me i couldn't breed them so early... as i'm growing my girls to breed.

so, you feel it's safe for me to introduce them to their 'special' friend... ricky?

as far as the pine shavings... i understand you keeping the rats you are growing to feed on pine... but what about the breeders? so adam, are you saying the breeders were kept on pine as well? *curious*

just a quick disclaimer here... i'm totally new to rats. i had two males years ago but with old age...i remember nothing LOL - so i'm just sharing the stuff i've been told or read so far... and honestly, people with rats which are healthy and who know their stuff... is much better than any advice i may give.

I keep all of my breeder rats on pine and they give me big healthy litters. They are thriving. :)

i am sitting here very confused. not to start an argument or anything but... i read this forum and see that the posters here (esp the ones who've been around for a long time) really REALLY care about their pets... and then i read in this thread where people are saying pine is okay for their rats... i find this to be very confusing.

here's an article about pine and cedar shavings...

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

specifically it states: "Several people have claimed that their pet rodents have always been kept on pine or cedar with no adverse effects. However, animals with elevated liver enzymes do not show any symptoms, and unless these animals received full autopsies at death with no sign of enlarged livers or liver disfunction, respiratory infection, or altered immune system, how can they claim that the pine or cedar did not affect them?"

so perhaps i'm out of line here, and i apologize if i offend anyone... but aren't we responsible for these little rats and mice? and even if they are for food... shouldn't we give them the best life possible? (esp the breeders who aren't going to put down early in their lives)

*steps off soapbox*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

i am sitting here very confused. not to start an argument or anything but... i read this forum and see that the posters here (esp the ones who've been around for a long time) really REALLY care about their pets... and then i read in this thread where people are saying pine is okay for their rats... i find this to be very confusing.

here's an article about pine and cedar shavings...

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

specifically it states: "Several people have claimed that their pet rodents have always been kept on pine or cedar with no adverse effects. However, animals with elevated liver enzymes do not show any symptoms, and unless these animals received full autopsies at death with no sign of enlarged livers or liver disfunction, respiratory infection, or altered immune system, how can they claim that the pine or cedar did not affect them?"

so perhaps i'm out of line here, and i apologize if i offend anyone... but aren't we responsible for these little rats and mice? and even if they are for food... shouldn't we give them the best life possible? (esp the breeders who aren't going to put down early in their lives)

*steps off soapbox*

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This has been a debate for many years, I have kept rats and mice on pine in the past, and did have problems due to it with SOME of my rats and mice, when switched over to something like care fresh or yesterdays news, it cleared up. I have had plenty of rodents not have any issues with it also. So really, in this situation, it is a matter of your personal preference, and observing your rodents also to see if there is any issues cropping up to allow you to make a change. I currently do not use pine and have not for many years with any rodents I have kept, be it pet or feeder. But thats just me leaving no room for any kind of problems that MAY crop up.

Cedar is a definate no no.

But I use pine. I think pine depends alot on the quality of product that you get. The pine that I purchase is larger pieces with little dust. My mice show no issues with the pine that I get. However, I believe that if they were kept on a really dusty pine material....or any material for that fact.....it would not be healthy.

Perhaps, the pine might cause problems over an extended period of time(although I have not noticed any problems with my breeders).......but the majority of my mice are never really exposed to the pine for longer than 5 weeks so I really can't offer input on that ;)

hi daniel,

not according to the article... it's not the dust, it's the toxins IN the softwood shavings and from what i've read... cedar and pine are equally toxic.

jeanne,

thanks for your input :)

NP Aleesha! We are all here to share ideas and thoughts you know.. LOL

What is your source of information on that? I love a good read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

here's an article about pine and cedar shavings...

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

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I missed the references at the bottom :)

The lady who wrote that is very credible, she has been in the rat hobby for ALOT of years and has supplied the public with lots of credible info... however, I cannot vouch for her sources as far as validity or research techniques.

All I can say is that they are happy rats with fat healthy babies. If I had problems with it, I'd switch over to something else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby

All I can say is that they are happy rats with fat healthy babies. If I had problems with it, I'd switch over to something else.

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I think its like I mentioned before, some rodents have problems with it and some dont. I dont feel you are a bad person or anything for using pine if thats what you choose, I just think you have to watch your rodents for any problems that may develop.

I wonder if I'd be able to find horse stall sized bags of something other than pine.. I certainly can't afford to buy those itty bitty bags of aspen they sell at the pet stores! I'd have to buy 5 a week probably!

something i used to use with my mice... which really lowered the smell as well... was timothy hay or alfafa - perhaps you can get them cheaper???

You used that as a bedding? I haven't heard of doing that before.

It's really hard to beat $6 for 7.5 cubic feet of shavings. That and I go through about 70 lbs of dog food a month, plus cereal mixture for the rats.. it's important to keep costs down.

Next time I'm in the feed store, I'll ask if they have other types of bedding for horses.

i know we can get a bale of either one but i don't know the cost... sorry :( it was great bedding... and my mice really loved it! not only can they eat it, but they can climb in and thru it.

I thought alfalfa was unhealthy for them to eat?

hmmm, not that i know of... but hey, i may be wrong LOL after all - it does happen LOL

my hubby is the one who yelled out alfafa... i was just putting timothy hay in my response... so i guess theoratically... that would make HIM wrong LOL

off to check out alfafa for mice...

okay, they won't eat it... but you can use it for substrate ;)

I actually have a small bag of alfalfa that I gave the rats/mice. The rats ate it, the mice ignored it mostly.

oh good, then i guess your critters make it clear for us... rats yes mice no (eating wise) LOL