Jill needs some help!

I picked up a pair of dwarf boas at March Tinley this year and they started off great! For the first 4 weeks I had them they both ate a f/t mouse hopper every Thursday and I had them in 6 qt tubs. After the 4 weeks I moved them into 15 qt tubs since those wouldn't need lids in the rack. That was 7 weeks ago and my male still slams his hopper every week. Jill on the other hand, she stopped eating as soon as I did that. After about 3 or 4 weeks of her not eating I moved her back into the 6qt tub and still no luck. I've tried mouse pinkies and hoppers and just recently a rat fuzzy and still nothing. She doesn't even seem interested. She's 56 grams today and like an idiot I didn't weigh her when I got her and I've barely touched her since she's not eating so im not sure if she's lost any weight but she doesn't look thin or anything. Hot spot is 90-92 and ambient side is 79-81. Im at a total loss here and im freaking out since today has been 7 weeks since she's eaten and she's only 9 months old! Thank you if you've read all this and I really appreciate any help offered.

I would try a lot of things.
The first I would try is to get a small box that she fits in. Put her in for 5 minutes alone closed. Then open the box, drop a prey and close it back. Leave it alone for 40 minutes. Check back.

She's in a 6 qt tub now with a lid so it's already pretty small. I've left the mouse in there for up to an hour before and nothing. I feel like moving her to a smaller box just for feeding would stress her out even more and negate the whole process.

Since she's on f/t, put the warmed up hopper into her tub at dusk, close her up, walk away, and don't check her until morning.

If she has a hide in the tub and she's under it, leave the feeder just at the entrance to the hide.

Have you tried talking to the breeder you got them from?

I am not familiar with these specifically, but the temps. seem high to me for boas...while that is the range you want for BPs, are you sure they apply to this species?
(I realize the male is eating, but as with all creatures, some are more forgiving than others)

Did they come with a feeding record? If so, how many meals prior to their sale to you, & of what?

Have you checked the female over physically, say for abnormal swelling in the lower third of the body. (could she be blocked up? maybe a swim/soak would help?)
While eating, did they both defecate?

Have you been handling them? if so, how much?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Have you tried talking to the breeder you got them from?

I am not familiar with these specifically, but the temps. seem high to me for boas...while that is the range you want for BPs, are you sure they apply to this species?
(I realize the male is eating, but as with all creatures, some are more forgiving than others)

Did they come with a feeding record? If so, how many meals prior to their sale to you, & of what?

Have you checked the female over physically, say for abnormal swelling in the lower third of the body. (could she be blocked up? maybe a swim/soak would help?)
While eating, did they both defecate?

Have you been handling them? if so, how much?

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According to Vin Russo's book on boas all the temps are about what they should be but I could lower them if that's what needs to be done. I haven't contacted the breeder yet because I wasn't sure when you start worrying nor did I get a feeding log. This was my first breeder buy so I was kind if ignorant to the protocols. I have looked at her and visually I don't see anything wrong but im not above taking her to a vet and getting her checked out. The male has pooped but once again in my ignorance I wasn't tracking poops since I've had so much luck with everything else. I've since started logging everyone's sheds, feeds, urates, and poops. I will handle the male since he doesn't seem to have any issues but other than taking Jill out of her tub for cleaning I try not to touch her because I don't want to stress her out.

Well I'd sure listen to Vin Russo for the temps. etc....as I said, I'm not specifically familiar with these, it was just a thought.

Not sure a vet will see anything that you cannot, and that adds more stress, so it wouldn't be something I'd do without obvious reason, like an RI.

So you're not sure she has ever defecated then? am I reading this right? Between being in a small cage & not moving around much (hiding) maybe this is why
she's not eating? In the wild, with a predator (you) lurking about, perhaps her instinct is to wait until it (you) leaves? Again, just a guess... I mean, hiding from
predators & fasting as needed is what snakes do. Maybe she is just way more shy than the male?

I'm just helping you brainstorm, I don't "know" for sure what the answer is...but trying to see it from her perspective.

She needs "assertiveness training", lol...

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Well I'd sure listen to Vin Russo for the temps. etc....as I said, I'm not specifically familiar with these, it was just a thought.

Not sure a vet will see anything that you cannot, and that adds more stress, so it wouldn't be something I'd do without obvious reason, like an RI.

So you're not sure she has ever defecated then? am I reading this right? Between being in a small cage & not moving around much (hiding) maybe this is why
she's not eating? In the wild, with a predator (you) lurking about, perhaps her instinct is to wait until it (you) leaves? Again, just a guess... I mean, hiding from
predators & fasting as needed is what snakes do. Maybe she is just way more shy than the male?

I'm just helping you brainstorm, I don't "know" for sure what the answer is...but trying to see it from her perspective.

She needs "assertiveness training", lol...

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I want to say I remember she has but like I said I wasn't logging any of this so I don't want to say for certain. I know for sure I've cleaned up urate from her but im not sure about feces. Lesson learned there for sure. She has a hide in the tub and some vine clutter to make her feel more secure? In the bigger tub it was just the hide and water bowl but like I said she ate 4 time's(weeks) in a row for me and today makes 8 weeks since she hasn't. A friend of mine said not to worry until 9 weeks cuz that's how long it takes to lose body mass? He's owned reptiles for a long time so I trust his opinion I just thought I'd ask here too. Im only ever in the room they're in twice a day. Once in the morning to check temps and such and same thing at night. Every once in a while I'll go in there to grab one to take out and handle but it's never more than a couple seconds so there's almost no traffic in the room she's in.
I know going off feed and fasting is very common I just wasn't sure if 8 weeks now is too long for a 9 month old boa.

It seems odd to me for a young boa but again, I haven't worked with dwarf boas at all, & I have a hunch they're more delicate (reclusive)? Small species almost
have to be, to survive. And don't feel bad, I don't typically "track" defecations either, I just wondered if you happened to remember. I think she is instinctively
maximizing nutrient absorption before being forced to face the "brave new world" and get more food, & obviously she wasn't ready for the larger cage when you
thought you were doing a good thing. Hopefully she'll eat again soon for you but meanwhile, don't offer food too often. Maybe if you can "stand" to wait 2 weeks
now ("tough love"), it would help her feel the urgency?

Another thing: where are these from? Does it rain much there? I wonder if these are snakes that tend to hunt more right after a rain? You might try spraying
(misting heavily) some night & then offer? Can't hurt to try "something different" if what you're doing isn't working...unless someone else that has experience with
these specifically can chime in to the contrary??? (what humidity do these require on a day to day basis?)

I wouldn't worry just yet either. These animals can go a very long time without eating, even the young ones. I usually like to give my boas a hot spot of about 86-88 but 90 isn't too hot as long as they have a cooler area. How are you thawing and presenting the prey and how often are you attempting to feed? Could the animal be preparing to shed? I'd keep offering food every 10-14 days until she starts to eat again. You may have to leave the prey in overnight if she doesn't take it from the tongs. If she hits the 12 week mark I'd try a live prey item. Keep us posted on your progress please.

They're from crawl cay. It's a small island off the coast of Panama. According to my book ( my boa bible lol) there's only about 8-10 wild boas on that island so it would make sense that food is scarce and they don't eat often. Im not sure about the amount of rain they get but that's something I'll try to research. I try to keep the humidity around 55-60 and it does pretty will with the cypress mulch I use.

I just use hot water to thaw the frozen mice out and I take them out and offer after the prey reads 100-110. They eat every Thursday. The male took today but I didn't offer the female in hopes that if I wait till next Thursday-which will be 9 weeks!- she'll take it. If she doesn't take it off the tongs next Thursday I'll try leaving it in over night. Thank you everyone for your help!

Oh definitely try leaving the prey in overnight after offering it. That may be all she needs...the cover of darkness & privacy.

It's best to thaw completely in cool water, btw...& only then once rodents are soft thru-out (thawed) to warm them up as needed. Thawing in hot water just
promotes spoilage, & that might work against you, especially if you end up leaving the prey overnight. -It will have a head-start on spoiling and that may repel
her from eating what she otherwise might have, especially if it takes a while for her to build up her courage.

Anyway, good luck & keep us posted! :gj:

I think 90+ is too hot for boas but as long as there's a gradient to choose from, it should be okay. I keep mine about 85-87 on the hot side. I'm going to go against the grain and say warming the feeder in hot water is okay, especially for a young, picky feeder. I've done that plenty of times with picky young bps and newborn mainland boas I'm dealing with now. I also agree to try leaving the food overnight as the next step to try. Generally they will prefer mice over rats to start, if she was taking f/t mouse hoppers for you before, I'd stick with those (or smaller as you tried).

If leaving overnight doesn't work (some really do just like to take it when everything is quiet and still), the steps we take, with usually good results, are:
First presenting prey a bit away from them where they can see it, hold with tongs on the ground and wiggle like a baby live pink would be... just helpless and wiggling around.
If some interest but not a lot, move closer until it's actually touching the boas mouth. Sometimes this gets them to just go ahead and bite it.
If no interest, actively moving away or just ignoring completely, then we bump it against and annoy the boa's tail with it, gets them irritated but it sometimes causes them to go "okay you lil bugger!' and bite and wrap and finally feed.

We always try offering like the first step. Then leaving overnight. If still nothing, next week we try step 1 and then move on to those last two I mentioned.
Normally once a baby starts feeding, then they are good so I hope your girl comes around soon now that she's back in the smaller size tub. *fingers crossed*

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

... I also agree to try leaving the food overnight as the next step to try. Generally they will prefer mice over rats to start, if she was taking f/t mouse hoppers for you before, I'd stick with those (or smaller as you tried).

If leaving overnight doesn't work (some really do just like to take it when everything is quiet and still), the steps we take, with usually good results, are:
First presenting prey a bit away from them where they can see it, hold with tongs on the ground and wiggle like a baby live pink would be... just helpless and wiggling around.
If some interest but not a lot, move closer until it's actually touching the boas mouth. Sometimes this gets them to just go ahead and bite it.
If no interest, actively moving away or just ignoring completely, then we bump it against and annoy the boa's tail with it, gets them irritated but it sometimes causes them to go "okay you lil bugger!' and bite and wrap and finally feed.

We always try offering like the first step. Then leaving overnight. If still nothing, next week we try step 1 and then move on to those last two I mentioned.
Normally once a baby starts feeding, then they are good so I hope your girl comes around soon now that she's back in the smaller size tub. *fingers crossed*

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I agree. Snakes don't all "read the manual" to respond the same way...I do my share of varying the presentation...I've seen plenty of snakes that do best with a little
"tap on the shoulder" (with the prey) so they turn & bite (yes, this is defensive, but if you stand very still, most snakes realize "Hmm, this tastes pretty good" & they eat.

I've also gotten snakes to eat by sneaking the prey right up to their face & barely touching their jaw, & wham! they bite it, wrap & eat. Whatever theatrics it takes to get
YOUR snake to eat is worth it & just part of the game. Just do your best to be "in the background". And offer at night if that's what your snake would do in the wild.

I've raised quite a few rosy boas & also worked with some w/c rescues...they are snakes that can frustrate owners, but there's always some in EVERY species that just
want "special treatment"...it's up to us to try until we figure out what works. Once we do, they often grow out of being so difficult...it's just a matter of getting them going.

I've tried bumping on various parts of her body and she just runs from it. One time I even tried following her with it to make her mad hoping she would take it and nothing. Man I thought BPs were stressful lol this boa has me goin crazy! I'll offer again next Thursday and leave it in there over night if she doesn't take it. I'll update next week. Thanks again everyone for the help!

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Originally Posted by Toad37

I've tried bumping on various parts of her body and she just runs from it. One time I even tried following her with it to make her mad hoping she would take it and nothing. Man I thought BPs were stressful lol this boa has me goin crazy! I'll offer again next Thursday and leave it in there over night if she doesn't take it. I'll update next week. Thanks again everyone for the help!

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She sounds like one that will be happy then, if the mouse plays dead...:D Frustrating that she ate at first for you, but not now. :confusd: Fingers crossed for ya!

Update: I tried to feed her a f/t today after not offering last week and once again she adamantly refused. But this evening she was offered a live fuzzy and took it!! So she finally ate after 9 weeks! Only problem is the closest place to get one is about an hour's drive from me. So now I have a couple questions if anyone can help.
1. What would've caused her to be turned off of f/t after eating 4 weeks in a row for me? Was it just a fluke with the live mouse or is something different (other than the love part of course) between the two?
2. Where do I go from here? Do I keep offering live? And for how long? Should I try to offer a f/t next week or not? Can I choo choo train and try to get her back on f/t? Thank you everyone for all.ur help!

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Originally Posted by Toad37

Update: I tried to feed her a f/t today after not offering last week and once again she adamantly refused. But this evening she was offered a live fuzzy and took it!! So she finally ate after 9 weeks! Only problem is the closest place to get one is about an hour's drive from me. So now I have a couple questions if anyone can help.
1. What would've caused her to be turned off of f/t after eating 4 weeks in a row for me? Was it just a fluke with the live mouse or is something different (other than the love part of course) between the two?
2. Where do I go from here? Do I keep offering live? And for how long? Should I try to offer a f/t next week or not? Can I choo choo train and try to get her back on f/t? Thank you everyone for all.ur help!

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I would try chain feeding 2 small items (the sum of which is not too big of a meal for her), the first being live, & the second, offered right after she swallows the f/t one &
while she is still pumped up to feed eagerly. Note, thaw in cold water until soft, then warm it briefly & offer...thawing in hot water (too hot or too long) promotes spoilage
and can change the smell/taste...as I said earlier. I would do all I could to have her eating f/t, for your convenience & her safety. Good luck!

The plan is definitely to get her back on f/t purely for her safety. Next week I will try to chain feed. Or should I give her more than a week since this was her first meal in 9 weeks?

Another small meal in a week shouldn't hurt. If she happens to go into shed in the next week though I wouldn't offer again until she was done. While most boas will eat while in shed, since this baby was a little finicky it won't hurt to wait.

As above...I'd wait a week, personally. Hopefully the "snack" will perk up her appetite. Hope so.

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Originally Posted by Toad37

I picked up a pair of dwarf boas at March Tinley this year and they started off great! For the first 4 weeks I had them they both ate a f/t mouse hopper every Thursday and I had them in 6 qt tubs. After the 4 weeks I moved them into 15 qt tubs since those wouldn't need lids in the rack. That was 7 weeks ago and my male still slams his hopper every week. Jill on the other hand, she stopped eating as soon as I did that. After about 3 or 4 weeks of her not eating I moved her back into the 6qt tub and still no luck. I've tried mouse pinkies and hoppers and just recently a rat fuzzy and still nothing. She doesn't even seem interested. She's 56 grams today and like an idiot I didn't weigh her when I got her and I've barely touched her since she's not eating so im not sure if she's lost any weight but she doesn't look thin or anything. Hot spot is 90-92 and ambient side is 79-81. Im at a total loss here and im freaking out since today has been 7 weeks since she's eaten and she's only 9 months old! Thank you if you've read all this and I really appreciate any help offered.

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A few things.

1. Is there a proper gradient of temps in the tub? In other words is there enough room for her to get to a 85F spot and curl up, etc.?

2. Does she use the 90-92F hot spot? Both my boas rarely will use the hot side except to digest and then prefer 87-90F. They spend most of their time in 78-80F cool side or 84F middle.

3. What's humidity? That's another important factor for Boas - some species more than others.

4. How are you defrosting and offering prey?

5. How often are you offering prey?

Any information you can give would be helpful in trying to help.

P.S. I saw she ate a live mouse - but Boas usually don't care. I am wondering on all the above still, especially how you are defrosting and offering the F/T.

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Originally Posted by dakski

A few things.

1. Is there a proper gradient of temps in the tub? In other words is there enough room for her to get to a 85F spot and curl up, etc.?

2. Does she use the 90-92F hot spot? Both my boas rarely will use the hot side except to digest and then prefer 87-90F. They spend most of their time in 78-80F cool side or 84F middle.

3. What's humidity? That's another important factor for Boas - some species more than others.

4. How are you defrosting and offering prey?

5. How often are you offering prey?

Any information you can give would be helpful in trying to help.

P.S. I saw she ate a live mouse - but Boas usually don't care. I am wondering on all the above still, especially how you are defrosting and offering the F/T.

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1. Yes she has a gradient of 90ish hot side and around 82 cool side.

2. Ive seen her using both sides. She hovers on the cool side more often but still uses her hide on the warm side often.

3. Humidity stays around 50-60% usually unless someone is going into shed then I bump it to 70 or 80.

4. I usually take the already thawed mouse out if the fridge and warm it up in hot water to about 100-105 degrees.

5. I offer prey once a week on the same day every week.

I thought about this recently tho. I work 2nd shift so I usually offer in the morning sometime. But when she ate the live mouse it was in the evening when my wife gave it to her. Could it be because she's nocturnal? Maybe I should start offering after work instead of before?

I feed all my snakes at night. All are nocturnal. Including boas.

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Originally Posted by dakski

I feed all my snakes at night. All are nocturnal. Including boas.

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I'm not sure why that never dawned on me lol. It could be because I've never had a problem feeding during the day that I didn't associate it with being an issue. I will definitely start trying that. Thank you so much!

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Originally Posted by Toad37

Update: I tried to feed her a f/ttoday after not offering last week and once again she adamantly refused. Butthis evening she was offered a live fuzzy and took it!! So she finally ateafter 9 weeks! Only problem is the closest place to get one is about an hour'sdrive from me. So now I have a couple questions if anyone can help.

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Originally Posted by Toad37

1. What would've caused her to be turned off of f/t aftereating 4 weeks in a row for me? Was it just a fluke with the live mouse or issomething different (other than the love part of course) between the two?
2. Where do I go from here? Do I keep offering live? And forhow long? Should I try to offer a f/t next week or not? Can I choo choo trainand try to get her back on f/t? Thank you everyone for all.ur help!

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It sounds like you are headed on the right track but thiscould derail and I want to clear some things up...

1. Your boa was doing fine until the move to a largertub...that was the first problem...loss of security. Hungry critters of goodhealth will eat if they feel secure.

The second problem, and you can kill a young insecure boa bydoing it, was forcing the issue. Never chase or tap the snake with itsfood...there is a reason the boa is not eating, causing fear and stress is notthe way to fix the issue. Do not put a fearful boa in a separate enclosure tofeed.

This boa is a little insecure, treat her as such (less or nohandling, don't mess with her a few days before feeding and definitely notuntil a meal is digested) -she will come around if you're patient. There is oneplace a young boa should feel secure (in her tub)...make that happen.

To keep this boa on the right track: Stick withthe proper prey size and move feedings out to two weeks (you want her to behungry with a strong feeding response). The only 'game' I would play with heris put the food near a vent on the outside of the enclosure. Come back in anhour or so and give it a go. I used to breed rats in the basement. I could goin the basement for just a minute, not touch anything, then go into the snakeroom and the boas would try to eat me without ever opening an enclosure door.Their sense of smell is incredible...use it

Just wanted to update. As dakski reminded, boas are nocturnal (not sure why or how I forgot that lol). So I heated up a mouse this evening (instead of this morning) for both of them the male took no problem like always. I took Jill's mouse and just put it in her tub with her. When I opened it and put the mouse in she backed up so I didn't even attempt the "zombie dance". I just gently put in by her hide and closed her up. I told myself I would check on her in the morning but curiosity got the best of me! I went in the room a few hours later and just shined a dim flashlight in her tub and the mouse was gone! I guess she just doesn't like an audience and would prefer to eat at night; dually noted. Thank you everyone for all your help!!

Hooray! :dance: She'll probably get braver as she grows older too, but at least you've got her number now. ;)

I sure hope she does. I'm still goin to keep handling to a minimum. Only to clean the tub or giver her a soak if she needs it. Just got her back on track I'd hate to mess that up by feeding my own desires!

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Originally Posted by Toad37

I sure hope she does. I'm still goin to keep handling to a minimum. Only to clean the tub or giver her a soak if she needs it. Just got her back on track I'd hate to mess that up by feeding my own desires!

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Oh, for sure! A snake that's too shy to eat isn't ready for handling...but patience usually pays off.

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Originally Posted by Toad37

I sure hope she does. I'm still goin to keep handling to a minimum. Only to clean the tub or giver her a soak if she needs it. Just got her back on track I'd hate to mess that up by feeding my own desires!

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Makes sense to handle infrequently until you get some meals in her and she builds confidence. Awesome she ate.

Regarding the bravery - Be Careful What You Wish For! A confident and hungry boa can be a handful!

Having said that, I love the confidence both my boas have. It's part of what makes them great to handle and observe and I love their personality.