Help me decide on a new snake! :)

Hello everyone. After a a successful year of taking care of my BP(never missing a meal, perfect sheds, etc) my parents allowed me to get another snake. I have a few species in mind. I'm currently thinking about a male BCI, a male STP or a female BP. My parents don't want a snake over 6 feet so instead of the male BCI I could potentially get a dwarf boa. I've handled a retic, a burm, a few boas, and a blood python over the past year so I think I have a small idea on what keeping one of the species I listed above might be like. Anyways, my BP has never hissed, struck, or bit me, so I want more of a "mean" snake because I want to gain experience with all sorts of different behaviors in snakes. I know that all snakes have different personalities, but do you guys have any ideas on species that I could get that are more commonly defensive and stay under 6 foot? I would prefer boas or pythons. Thanks!

Rat snakes! Come over to the rat snake forum and ask away! Mine is a fantastic, curious, calm pet and so easy to feed and care for compared to my BP. I just really enjoy her

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Not a "mean" snake, but Australian spotted pythons stay small but act like big snakes (great feeding response to f/t!), they're a hoot. These do stay smaller than
the species you mentioned, but since you're still living with your folks, it would be a good idea to stay "practical", since at some point your life is apt to change by
leaps & bounds...& finding an apartment that allows pets, especially snakes, can be a challenge, for example. And if you plan to go off to college, your time and
priorities are apt to change drastically too.

I didn't suggest a rat snake or other colubrid only because the OP specified a boa/python. But yeah, bull snakes really rock too, and all rat snakes!

Oh wait I didn't see the mean snake part. Never mind. Unless you want to work with our really grumpy bitey BP named Lucy.

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For something a bit more "mean", you could go with something impressively bluff-y like a bull snake or gopher snake. They rarely exceed 6', but even if they are, they're not super thick bodied, so it isn't likely to seem that large (just don't measure ;)). They tend to be quite loud and vocal, but don't actually bite all that much. My bull is a very easy-going one for her age/size, but even though she has never struck, she can put on a hilarious "hissy" fit.

Or you could go for a truly "mean" snake, like a green tree python or Amazon tree boa. Smaller enclosure size for the size of snake because they're arboreal, and well known for being temperamental. Hahaha.

I've got a male and female BCI, and a male blood, but mine are all juveniles, so I can't say much on adult size. They're all at least as docile as my BPs, though. More confident and very calm. Well-bred bloods are often extremely tame and calm. Some BPs are more shy and spook easier than others and can actually be "worse" than bloods or boas. My male BCI has been one of my easiest snakes to work with.

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I would be fine with a rat snake, I just have no experience with any colubrids so far. When I was looking into some meaner snakes I came across the coachwhip. Do you know if they are similar behavior wise since finding a CB coachwhip is a hassle?

I'll have to look into the spotted pythons. Only downside for me is that there on the smaller side.

The bull and gopher snake seem like that ideal choice! I'll definitely look into them. Do they have any downsides that I should know about as a new keeper? Oh, and how large of an enclosure do you think an adult gopher/bull snake would need? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Danya

The bull and gopher snake seem like that ideal choice! I'll definitely look into them. Do they have any downsides that I should know about as a new keeper? Oh, and how large of an enclosure do you think an adult gopher/bull snake would need? Thanks.

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Figure about a 60-70 gal. tank size with screen top...you want good ventilation. These are day-time active hunters, they happily take f/t rodents, and especially
when hatchlings, can be pretty feisty. Most out-grow that, but personality is partly genetic, & a big part experience/learning. I've kept, bred & raised both bull &
gopher snakes...the only downside would be they can be restless in too small of a cage...as I said, these are ACTIVE hunters, not ambush predators like BPs. The
temps. needed are pretty much room temperature (70*) for most of cage with UTH (about 85*) at one end for digestion. All of mine were tame to handle easily once
grown, & they 'change gears' pretty well too (ie. they were smart enough not to think I was edible if I handled them after a meal).

How fast do they grow? Also, I keep my room in the mid-high 70's. Would this be fine for a gopher/bull snake?

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Originally Posted by Danya

I would be fine with a rat snake, I just have no experience with any colubrids so far. When I was looking into some meaner snakes I came across the coachwhip. Do you know if they are similar behavior wise since finding a CB coachwhip is a hassle?

I'll have to look into the spotted pythons. Only downside for me is that there on the smaller side.

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I would not recommend a coachwhip: they are VERY active & tend to do poorly in even a large cage...it's not the same thing as wide open spaces & real sunlight.
The only reason I've known & kept one briefly was that I lived in the desert where they are native, & had one as a rescue. They are not constrictors, they gulp down
a variety of small prey still alive, & they are not happy even in BIG cages. They're a racer-type snake...not a fun pet. Please cross coachwhips off your list.

Say, if you really want an ornery snake, I'll send you my Korean rat snake! :rofl: He's only about 5' of PITA, lol.

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Originally Posted by Danya

How fast do they grow? Also, I keep my room in the mid-high 70's. Would this be fine for a gopher/bull snake?

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Fairly fast...the hatchlings themselves can be about 18-20", with a sturdy build. They do eat often too. Your room temp. would be fine, just need a UTH under a portion (about 1/8th) of the cage floor. When I kept & raised bull/gopher snakes, I lived in the desert & my house ranged from 70-83* (w/ HVAC that kicked on below or above that.) These are great hissers, btw...mostly bluff that they outgrow, but it's fun while it lasts. They're not pansies...:D

Alright, thanks for the info! Haven't heard of Korean rat snakes. What are they like? How big do they get? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Danya

The bull and gopher snake seem like that ideal choice! I'll definitely look into them. Do they have any downsides that I should know about as a new keeper? Oh, and how large of an enclosure do you think an adult gopher/bull snake would need? Thanks.

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Mine is a juvie, and for now my plan is to keep her in a 4x2 PVC cage (I've already got the cage), although if she starts having any rubbing or pushing issues when she grows, I can upgrade that later on. Unless she's especially large, I don't think it will be an issue.

I can't really think of any downside to them like BPs have (some finicky feeding/winter fasting). They're not worried about heat on prey, take F/T easy.. I guess juveniles could be squirmy or faster than you're used to and adults even will be more active to handle than a BP, but nothing all that hard to deal with. If there's anywhere around with a larger ratsnake, corn snake, or colubrid, handling one of those will give you a general idea of the activity level of one. I find it refreshing after handling the slower snakes I've got.

Something neat though is that they have pretty heavily keeled scales which makes for a really different texture.

For a 3rd option to consider as a more advanced and possibly bitey-er python species, carpet pythons can be good option too. Smaller species will stay below 6' (jungles and IJs, maybe Darwins also?). Known as nippy babies, but similarly most grow out of it. An active, semi-arboreal python, they're definitely different and impressive for a 2nd snake. Care is very similar to a BP for heat and humidity, you must want more height and perching options. They don't tend to he fussy eaters and if it is above room temp, they have no problem taking food frozen thaw instead of needing life-like temps like most BPs. I've got a male coastal juvie, almost a yearling now, that is calm as can be, but coastals will probably exceed your 6' limit as adults.

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Thanks for the info on the gophers!

I've always really liked carpets but their size kind of steered me away from them. I've heard of the females reaching 10 feet. I didn't know that the different subspecies had such a large drop in size. Do females get larger than males like in most pythons? Also, is it true that the young carpets have really weak tail bones like GTP's? You really made me want a carpet. Thanks! :)

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Originally Posted by Danya

Alright, thanks for the info! Haven't heard of Korean rat snakes. What are they like? How big do they get? Thanks.

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Mine is full grown, currently about 10 years old. They get about 5-6', somewhat stocky build but more slender than a bull snake. Personality is more like a racer than a
rat snake...some are calmer than others, but really don't like to be handled & will bite if pushed too far. They're dark greenish on the body, with yellow chin & underside,
but very shy. I prefer snakes that take food from tongs, with these, it's more like "leave my food, turn out the light & go AWAY, lady!" hahahaha! They do take f/t, but
just aren't sociable snakes.

Texas rat snakes also tend to be on the feisty side from all I've read. That's about the only U.S. rat snake I haven't kept. Everglades rat snakes are really pretty (they start off with brownish blotches but gradually turn orange as they grow...very pretty, yellow chin & orange eyes too. Can be fairly feisty too, but manageable pets...I've raised many of them. I currently have yellow (Florida) rat snakes...the males are now about 7' while the females are about 5'....and they're about 12 years old att. They act feisty when first approached, but don't bite & settle down and handle quite well...they're good pets, actually (don't know why so many ppl are afraid of them? but they can be good bluffers too, lol) In fact, I've taken my big males to public meet & greets for years now, they always behave very well with everyone. (they're 'raised right' ;))

So with all these choices, you might have to get several snakes? :rofl: Truth is, there ARE lots of good choices for the description you gave.

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Originally Posted by Danya

Thanks for the info on the gophers!

I've always really liked carpets but their size kind of steered me away from them. I've heard of the females reaching 10 feet. I didn't know that the different subspecies had such a large drop in size. Do females get larger than males like in most pythons? Also, is it true that the young carpets have really weak tail bones like GTP's? You really made me want a carpet. Thanks! :)

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I think the 10' ones are pretty exclusive to one end of the coastal range and are females. Most of the US CBB population is not from that end of their range, so it is common for US females to never exceed 8 or 9' and 7 or 8' on males. And the 9'/8' ones are exceptionally large. At least this is what I've been told by people who work with them.

But yeah, I think jungles typically max around 6'.

I don't see much on sex dimorphism on the other species, mostly in coastals, but there probably is some. A male jungle would probably stay well within that 6' size, but most of my research stayed on coastals, so definitely look at that yourself.

They definitely don't have particularly fragile tails. They're slender, so of course don't grab them tightly or pick up by it (like any snake really), but they're handle-able as babies. Unlike GTPs, they're only semi-arboreal.

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Thanks for the info! I looked up some pictures of the Korean rats, they are really cool. I'd prefer a snake that doesn't have a problem with being handled, but I'll put them on my list. ;)

I've heard of the Everglades rat snakes. They are on the more uncommon species of rat snakes from what I've heard. I'll look into them too.

Thanks!

So many choices, yet I can only chose one. :(

I'll really look into the jungles and IJ carpets. How large of an enclosure would a full grown jungle/IJ need? Alos, do the juveniles prefer a semi-arboreal, or terrestrial enclosure?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Danya

So many choices, yet I can only chose one. :(

I'll really look into the jungles and IJ carpets. How large of an enclosure would a full grown jungle/IJ need? Alos, do the juveniles prefer a semi-arboreal, or terrestrial enclosure?

Thanks!

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Youd have to look up enclosure size yourself, ideally L + W = snake length *or bigger
So I imagine a 4x2 footprint is plenty if the max size is 6'. But I'd go for 2-3' of height if possible and give "sky" hides and branches or platforms for them to use. I have a bird ladder in my cage he loves to hunt from in addition to the ceiling mounted hide box.

Juvies will be just as fond of climbing, but as they're smaller it doesn't take a ton of height to give them climbing opportunities. That said, you can go straight to adult enclosure for most carpets without issue. By the time they clear a QT tub, as long as they're feeding, you'll be fine with an adult cage in 99% of cases.

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And that brings up another consideration: gopher & bull snakes (also pine snakes, same 'family') are terrestrial snakes, whereas most rat snakes love to
climb branches, so a taller cage is better for them. None of them are "shy" types that hide all the time (except the silly Koreans) Many of my rat snakes
love to snooze on platforms (shallow, somewhat flat baskets) that I wire to their branches. They also use hides on the floor at times...they dig having choices
& are good for watching.

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Originally Posted by Danya

Thanks for the info! I looked up some pictures of the Korean rats, they are really cool. I'd prefer a snake that doesn't have a problem with being handled, but I'll put them on my list. ;)

I've heard of the Everglades rat snakes. They are on the more uncommon species of rat snakes from what I've heard. I'll look into them too.

Thanks!

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Mine is probably mostly or at least partly Everglades ratsnake if you want to look up my recent threads, I have lots of photos. She's very friendly though-- probably not the ornery snake you are looking for.

I saw the coolest thing the other day-- a snake that stays very small, and it was living in an aquarium with a built platform and water below with small fish. The snake would dunk down and eat the fish!

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Originally Posted by FollowTheSun

Mine is probably mostly or at least partly Everglades ratsnake if you want to look up my recent threads, I have lots of photos. She's very friendly though-- probably not the ornery snake you are looking for.

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I've known (bred) Everglades rat snakes, some are more feisty than others, & much depends on the owner too. You are well-above average when it comes to handling.

I also have to wonder if the OP really wants a snake that STAYS feisty, or only one that starts off that way. And so much depends on the vibe they get from us too.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I also have to wonder if the OP really wants a snake that STAYS feisty, or only one that starts off that way. And so much depends on the vibe they get from us too.

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Agreed. A snake that takes some work or time to tame down and learn how to work with is one thing, but a perpetual jerk of a snake is probably not what anyone really wants to have, especially for 1 snake out of 2.

A bull or a carpet would be the best more active snakes for some added challenge in working with snakes. Nothing extreme, but completely different from a BP and very striking animals. Something like a woma python may be good too, but less commonly found at expos in my experience.

A blood would be good too or a boa, but both are girthier and may not be as well-liked if the parents have to do the bulk of the care for college or something. That's a situational thing, so if OP attends local and lives at home, it is clearly no issue, but otherwise it could be.

Bloods are a much bigger challenge to learn to read as they don't S up or do much strike posture when they're uncomfortable or upset, so with cranky ones or less predictable juveniles, bites can be very hard to predict, even with a lot of experience in other species since they just show their state of mind very differently.

Boas just get fairly large unless you get a dwarf from a breeder you can trust and not wind up with a mix that could get larger like a normal BCI. Overfeeding in boas is a big issue too, so definitely needs some added research to learn what good feeding looks like if that's the decision.

All in all... I have all 4 of those (blood, boa, bull, and carpet), and they're all great snakes, so not a bad choice among them in my opinion.


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Thanks for all the info guys! To clear it up, I would prefer a snake that starts off defensive and then becomes docile as I work with it. I wouldn't want an angry adult boa lol. I'm currently 14, so I have some years before I head off to college and I will most likely be living at home since the college I want to go to is very close to where I live. I'm gonna cross out the BCI off my list because of its potential size. Right now my list includes: Carpet Pythons, STP, Gopher/Bull Snakes, and some sort of rat snake. Thanks!

I'm open to many more suggestions! :)

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Originally Posted by Danya

Thanks for all the info guys! To clear it up, I would prefer a snake that starts off defensive and then becomes docile as I work with it. I wouldn't want an angry adult boa lol. I'm currently 14, so I have some years before I head off to college and I will most likely be living at home since the college I want to go to is very close to where I live. I'm gonna cross out the BCI off my list because of its potential size. Right now my list includes: Carpet Pythons, STP, Gopher/Bull Snakes, and some sort of rat snake. Thanks!

I'm open to many more suggestions! :)

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Just for funsies. Have a few pics of the different ones I've got. Maybe one of the looks will appeal and give you more direction.

Since you're planning to stay local for college as of now, you'll likely have less issue about size and care since you're most likely going to be around to do it yourself. Just something I try to caution pre-college age kids of when they mention snakes & especially parents who aren't too interested in caring for them.

Kingsville locale bullsnake
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5d6baa985e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b6cb552f89.jpg

Coastal carpet python
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...927db6488e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3629f658cd.jpg

Ivory blood python
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...151f0e5c1f.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4292580098.jpg

(Sorry in advance if the pictures look weird. Tapatalk likes to flip mine around at random :/)

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I would for sure steer clear of Korean rat snakes...I've known one other that was calmer but still not a good pet, & the one I have is just not "reachable"...I'm
quite experienced in calming snakes down, & from what I've read, this is how they mostly are. Russian rat snakes are supposed to be good pets, but can be htf.

But most U.S. rat snakes would be great for you: black or amelanistic/"albino" black rat snakes, grey, yellow, Everglades, gulf hammock...all very similar but
with color differences. All are scrappy hatchlings that learn to be handled pretty well & get to the right size, with easy care & f/t rodents. Fairly smart snakes
too. The more docile ones you might not want (?) would be corn snakes, Trans Pecos & Bairds rat snakes. And Texas rat snakes might be more feisty than you
really want, but of course, there are always exceptions.

Gopher, bull & pine snakes are all similar in terms of size, ease of care & personality. Most hatchlings are quite defensive but with patient handling do very
well as pets. Remember that hatchlings of all kinds are easily preyed-upon, so their "attitude" is essential for their survival.

The other kinds on your list of consideration I'll leave to others who keep them, & ultimately it's all up to you, what appeals, & finding a healthy hatchling. It's
great that you're researching this, it should help you make a better choice than just impulse-buying, since these snakes can live 20+ years with good care, good genes & good luck. No such thing as a dumb question either....just ask.

I think you're wise to avoid BCI at this time...for the very reason you gave. They're nice snakes, but can get bigger than you want, & it's harder to predict. Keep in mind that the pituophis family or rat snakes (pantherophis family) discussed are easier to keep than boa types because their large cages don't have to be kept
so warm year-round for them to stay healthy. The bigger a cage is, the more challenge the heating can be if a snake needs higher temps. Also, the kinds I suggested
aren't likely to refuse food in the winter either.

Great information!

I'm really leaning towards the carpet pythons honestly. How sturdy are they as juveniles? Same with the bull/gopher snakes. Will they be fine if I have to leave for a week?

Those are some really nice pics pretends2bnormal! Thanks for sharing them. (Love your Blood Python)

Snakes are fine for a week, IMO...as long as heat/temps are regulated appropriately & an adequate water bowl is clean & filled. It's always possible that they'll
defecate in the water bowl or dump it over, but while undesirable, neither is fatal.

Alright thanks! My family likes to go camping a lot so thats where my concern is coming from. I wouldn't want to leave a young snake alone for over a week, and I don't trust anyone to take care of it. I have left for a week once, and my BP was fine, but I'm afraid that if I were to be gone longer their water would go bad/evaporate.

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Originally Posted by Danya

Great information!

I'm really leaning towards the carpet pythons honestly. How sturdy are they as juveniles? Same with the bull/gopher snakes. Will they be fine if I have to leave for a week?

Those are some really nice pics pretends2bnormal! Thanks for sharing them. (Love your Blood Python)

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I have a juvenile bredli carpet python and if you want feisty, carpets are the way to go lol. She's slowly starting to calm down but very active and very curious. She's tagged me a couple times but only because I moved my hand too quick and startled her. Other than that she's a gorgeous animal and I love her!

So far, carpets are winning me over. Are they by any means fragile as juveniles?

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Originally Posted by Danya

So far, carpets are winning me over. Are they by any means fragile as juveniles?

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Well all snakes are fragile when young. They start out thinner like a colubrid but as adults they don't get much girthier than an adult bp. And jungles don't even get that big. As long as u handle it with care and do your research fragility shouldn't be an issue.

Well, I just got my first snake bite. I was feeding my BP two adult breeder mice(FT). I was feeding him with my tongs, but he totally missed and wrapped around my finger, tearing up all my skin. He let go in a few seconds, but he still drew a lot more blood than expected. My whole finger is now bloodied up. He started chasing me out of his tub once he realized that he didn't get his food so I had to quickly feed him the second mouse with one hand, while I was panicking and trying to wipe all the blood off. He has never missed the mouse before, and this came like a total surprise. I find it ironic how as soon as I start talking about getting more of a "mean" snake I get bit for the first time. Good thing is, the bite didn't hurt at all. I was just very surprised at the speed and strength that he used to chomp on my finger.

Welcome to the "Bleeders Circle"! ;) :rofl: Feeding bites aren't so funny, especially when a big snake doesn't let go. Stay focused when feeding snakes...& use
tongs that are long enough. You can even get 18" & 24" tongs for larger snakes. If you have any part of this bite that doesn't seem to heal up, you might have
one or more snake teeth embedded like tiny translucent splinters. Try not to pull away when tagged, it's better for the snake too when we don't break off their
teeth in our skin, and there are ways to get snakes to loosen their grip...like a quick dunk in their water bowl, etc.

Thanks for the information! My tongs are definitely long enough, I guess my fingers just smelled like a mouse to him. It was so fast that I didn't have any time to react other than to yell. I'll keep in mind that I shouldn't pull back.
Thanks!

It is rather ironic timing...do you still want a "meaner" snake? Now that you have more respect for the "mellow" ones? ;) Snakes can really fool you into
complacency...no joke, really. That's how people end up in the hospital when underestimating "hots". Most bites are avoidable, & should be avoided.

Also, you mentioned that you were feeding him "2 adult breeder mice"....that's not the best long-term diet, older rats or mice are higher in fat. With such an
appetite, have you ever tried offering a rat of comparable size (one rat that's roughly equal to the size of the 2 mice you've been feeding)? That's a healthier
way to go, if he'll accept the different smell of a rat.

I definitely have more respect for him now and I still absolutely want a "meaner" snake. This is his last package of mice. I'm feeding two because mice are simply not big enough anymore for him. Once he eats all of them I will be ordering rats. Hope he switches to them with ease. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Danya

I definitely have more respect for him now and I still absolutely want a "meaner" snake. This is his last package of mice. I'm feeding two because mice are simply not big enough anymore for him. Once he eats all of them I will be ordering rats. Hope he switches to them with ease. Thanks!

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You would be wise to hang onto at least one mouse to switch him to rats. They don't all want to switch, you know...and you might need to "scent" the rat with a mouse.*
Best idea is to try one rat first (before you run out of mice), just to gauge his interest. He may not care, but then again (knowing BPs ;)) he may turn up his cute little nose.

*Another technique is to first give the usual prey item (one mouse), then follow that with a f/t rat (while the snake is still pumped up "in feed mode"). Just make
sure that the rat is the same size as the mice he's been eating...you don't want the "combo meal" to exceed the room in his stomach. When you order rats, you'd mostly want the "right" size (ie. one item per meal) but if you can get a few smaller ones too, you may find them helpful to switch him over.

Thanks! I'll keep a mouse or two around. I think I'll be getting him 10 small frozen rats. They're just a size above his breeder mice. I have no doubt in him since he eats like a pig. Although, if he gets picky I will get some smaller ones too.

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Originally Posted by Danya

Thanks! I'll keep a mouse or two around. I think I'll be getting him 10 small frozen rats. They're just a size above his breeder mice. I have no doubt in him since he eats like a pig. Although, if he gets picky I will get some smaller ones too.

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:gj::gj::gj:

By the way, does anybody know any good sellers for Jaguars/IJ Carpets? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Danya

By the way, does anybody know any good sellers for Jaguars/IJ Carpets? Thanks.

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Might wanna ask that in a new thread, to get more direct attention.

Alright, will do!