How to Resolve Persistent Obesity

A few years ago I took in a corn snake rescue that was severely malnourished. My only previous experience with snake husbandry was my Ball Python which I have owned since 1990 (she's 29!) and a Northern Pacific Rattlesnake which I owned for 12 years (don't ask!).

Although less girthy than my other two, the corn snake was both underweight and much more active. I decided to put it on the same feeding schedule and offered it one jumbo mouse a week. The corn was a very easy feeder and I thought things were progressing well. Fast forward a year and one day I noticed that the snake no longer had a normal profile but instead had some odd bulges and creases along the last two thirds of its body. I looked online and realized that I had created an obese snake.

I gradually reduced the frequency of feedings until I was only offering one jumbo mouse every three weeks. Fast forward another year and my corn looks better but still has some issues along the last third of body length.

My snake is slightly over 4' in length and is allowed out of the cage to freely roam around my room whenever it desires. Last year I bought a 7.5'x7.5' popup screen room which I place out on the deck for the snakes when weather allows. Hopefully I can sandblast a large branch of manzanita soon and take more advantage of the vertical space.

My question (finally!) is what more can I do to reduce my snake's weight?

Snakes are survivors and colubrids are among the best, which means they don't need a whole lot of food to maintain weight. I would suggest dropping back the mouse size to a small/large adult instead of jumbo every three weeks. Jumbos are usually older retired breeders so they're pretty high in fat.

Otherwise, exercise and lots of it. As you noted corn snakes are pretty active of their own volition so I would look into getting it a larger enclosure so it moves around more even when you aren't home to let it out.

Never feed jumbo mice to corn snakes...jumbo mice are older breeders & they're very fatty!

I typically feed adult corn snakes (of normal weight) every 2 weeks, & at the most (in warmer months of summer) every 10 days.

Your snake is used to eating so often that she's going to be mighty unhappy eating every 3 weeks, and her metabolism might be better off if you fed her a
SMALL adult mouse every 2 weeks...I think that's what I'd do. Snakes are notoriously hard to put on diets & if they're anything like people (?), going so long
without food might trigger them to metabolize slower (conserving energy) to preclude starvation, making the "diet" backfire.

Branches are a good idea...:gj: And that's AWESOME that your BP is 29 years old!

I kept & worked with rattlesnakes for many years (though no longer) so I'd love to hear about your Northern Pacific sometime...I lived many years in So. Calif. :D

Thanks for advice! Wish I'd known about jumbo mice being fatty since I just placed another order... The snake has already been on a three week schedule for at least a year but I will do my best to increase exercise. Like I said I have a 7.5' square pop up "room" that I can set up on the deck when weather permits. She(?) spent several hours out today. Maybe I should purchase a small kiddie pool that will fit inside. I did read that swimming was good for weight loss.

I'd include photos but can't remember how to attach. They are uploaded to my gallery but when I compose my post and click on photo it wants a URL... Obviously not a forum pro!

Saw the gallery; corn snake could slim down a bit more. I also like the pop-up though I'd put a light colored towel or blanket on the floor if it's going to be in the sun, as those dark-colored floors can get quite toasty.

I was a little concerned about the dark flooring as well but so far it hasn't been an issue. I always check it periodically. There is good ventilation underneath from the decking and there is always a patch of shade somewhere since the top is solid fabric. I live in a coastal town in Northern California so 85 degrees is a HOT day here. I would love to add some sort of substrate, climbing tree, soaking pool, more hides, etc, but I have to break it down every day... Not everyone in the household appreciates the playpen taking up deck space!

A climbing tree and substrate might be a bit much to deal with but you could design a small PVC jungle gym that can be assembled and broken down quickly, and store it in a tub.

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Originally Posted by puddinck

Thanks for advice! Wish I'd known about jumbo mice being fatty since I just placed another order... The snake has already been on a three week schedule for at least a year but I will do my best to increase exercise...

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Much like humans, no amount of exercise will overcome excessive food. If they haven't shipped yet, please do change the order...and if it's already on the way, consider
placing another for the correct size food for your corn snake...it really does matter. You might be able to re-sell the feeders already ordered with a local ad. :snake:

Left a message for Layne Labs yesterday. Hopefully someone listens before order processed...

I'm having some issues with Ball-Pythons.net. I have to log in every 5 minutes and my posting permissions says I may not post attachments. Does that include photos? I managed to add them to my only other thread months ago...

Sorry, know nothing about site issues, contact admin* or mods. No way you should have to keep logging in :confusd:

*See above, quick links to "view site leaders" (2nd category is admins). Not sure we have a list of mods...but bcr229 is on right now. :)

Just had to log in again... Will try and send message to moderators when have a minute. Thanks!

Thanks again for advice! I was able to cancel the first order and I am placing another. A year's worth of SMALL adult mice for the corn and jumbos for the python. I'm sure the corn snake will appreciate the increase in feeding frequency even if much smaller meals. I know I will feel better! I hated the three week fasting...

I realize that many people feed rats to their ball pythons but mine definitely prefers mice. Despite her age she isn't a large animal and I think she does well on one jumbo a week. As my last thread mentioned she has lately had issues finding her prey and I would hate to switch things up on her now. Unless the jumbo (fatty!) mice are an issue for her liver?

Actually, 'fatty liver disease' really is a thing in snakes of all kinds. Glad you got small adult mice for the corn, that should really help, though visible results will
likely take a long time. I can understand not wanting to change a BP to rats when they clearly like mice, & keep in mind that young rodents of either rat OR
mouse persuasion have a higher percentage of body fat than the adults of average build. Older breeders of either one are best avoided as a steady diet.

So if younger rodents have a higher percentage of fat and older breeders are also fatty does that only leave small to large adults as a suitable prey item? I never used to have the luxury of choosing size. For years I fed live mice and at our local pet shop you were lucky to get what you got. I have paid $2.75 for a mouse that looked more like a hopper... Maybe that was actually better since my snakes were assured a random-sized prey item. I switched to frozen a few years ago when the pet store's supply became even more sporadic.

I am sure it is too late to cancel my second order with Layne Labs but maybe next year I can try the large versus the jumbo (if my poor old ball is still with me!) If it is really an issue then perhaps I can intersperse my frozen jumbos with live whatevers from the pet store.

Bogertophis,

I found a couple old pics of my Northern Pacific. I know I have more somewhere and will keep looking... He ended up being quite a large specimen! My family gave me an ultimatum after 12 years and I had to give him up to a rescue. Broke my heart! I continued to pay for his upkeep until his death four years later. He was so large and so tame that they often used him for outreach. Necropsy showed liver disease and I always felt that the change from country living to city living did him in, especially the water...

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...2628_4815.jpeg
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...2710_5895.jpeg

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Originally Posted by puddinck

So if younger rodents have a higher percentage of fat and older breeders are also fatty does that only leave small to large adults as a suitable prey item? I never used to have the luxury of choosing size. For years I fed live mice and at our local pet shop you were lucky to get what you got. I have paid $2.75 for a mouse that looked more like a hopper... Maybe that was actually better since my snakes were assured a random-sized prey item. I switched to frozen a few years ago when the pet store's supply became even more sporadic.

I am sure it is too late to cancel my second order with Layne Labs but maybe next year I can try the large versus the jumbo (if my poor old ball is still with me!) If it is really an issue then perhaps I can intersperse my frozen jumbos with live whatevers from the pet store.

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The way to look at feeders is that you want the most mature rodent of the appropriate size for the snake's body (& mouth). (most snakes you just get prey that is no
bigger than the mid-body before feeding, but if you have uncommonly kept snakes like longnose or glossy snakes, their narrow gape makes it impossible to feed them
enough with just one rodent, so for example, my longnose snake eats about 5 fuzzies per meal. (his wild diet is actually lizards or small snakes) But he's an exception,
and he's currently 17 years old, so the fuzzies have apparently "agreed" with him.

Whatever you do, don't give live prey to a snake that's used to eating f/t, as they tend to be less-prepared for 'battle' & can get injured. But as long as you kill them
first (which is maybe what you meant?), it's fine to mix up sizes...I was going to suggest alternating adult mice with the jumbos you ordered, to lower his fat intake.

I know how frustrating it is to get the right size snake food from local stores, from when I first got into snake-keeping. Very quickly I started breeding my own & have
ever since. More work but reliable food supply that I know has been fed properly. But there's the smells, & for just a couple snakes, it's not practical nor a $ savings.

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Originally Posted by puddinck

Bogertophis,

I found a couple old pics of my Northern Pacific. I know I have more somewhere and will keep looking... He ended up being quite a large specimen! My family gave me an ultimatum after 12 years and I had to give him up to a rescue. Broke my heart! I continued to pay for his upkeep until his death four years later. He was so large and so tame that they often used him for outreach. Necropsy showed liver disease and I always felt that the change from country living to city living did him in, especially the water...

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...2628_4815.jpeg
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...2710_5895.jpeg

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You should put this beautiful guy in his own thread (in the venomous forum). My fave was a big Southern Pacific (Crotalus viridis helleri), very similar to yours, &
smart. I'm SO sorry you had to give him up, especially after 12 years. It's stressful for snakes to be re-homed. My So. Pac. was given to me as a big adult, unknown
age (maybe 8+? since they don't grow as fast in the wild; he was w/c & pre-owned by a guy that lost interest after 2 years). He was my cherished pet for 17 years
before he passed away, at roughly* 25 years of age. (*best guess) He was never ill, but slowed down noticably in the last year before he passed...I didn't have a
necropsy done. Thanks for sharing your pics, I don't even have any digital pics to share...:( sorry.

If I find more pics maybe I will start a thread in the proper place. I didn't have any digital either I just used my cell to take a photo of a photo. I know I have some of him full grown somewhere... He was slightly over 4' when I gave him up and likely grew more at the reptile rescue.

He was wild caught by my then boyfriend when just a neonate.
A bunch of fence lizards were upset by something and caught Chris's eye. He went to investigate and found the young rattlesnake. I don't really know why he captured it but probably to please me. We found out later (after it defecated) that it had been eating the lizards. In fact I had to cut off the whiskers of the first few mice I offered because the snake would cringe and recoil when it brushed against them. I wasn't about to sacrifice any lizards! Didn't take long to adjust though, whiskers and all.

I always had a sense of guilt over taking him but we were always seeing them run over on the road or hearing about people killing them "just because". He seemed really content in captivity. No nose rubbing and very little restlessness. I still miss his beautiful head. So wicked!

If I find more pics maybe I will start a thread in the proper place. I didn't have any digital either I just used my cell to take a photo of a photo. I know I have some of him full grown somewhere... He was slightly over 4' when I gave him up and likely grew more at the reptile rescue.

He was wild caught by my then boyfriend when just a neonate.
A bunch of fence lizards were upset by something and caught Chris's eye. He went to investigate and found the young rattlesnake. I don't really know why he captured it but probably to please me. We found out later (after it defecated) that it had been eating the lizards. In fact I had to cut off the whiskers of the first few mice I offered because the snake would cringe and recoil when it brushed against them. I wasn't about to sacrifice any lizards! Didn't take long to adjust though, whiskers and all.

I always had a sense of guilt over taking him but we were always seeing them run over on the road or hearing about people killing them "just because". He seemed really content in captivity. No nose rubbing and very little restlessness. I still miss his beautiful head. So wicked!

That's so funny, I can just picture him getting the creepy-crawlies* from mouse whiskers. I never had any rattlesnakes require clean-shaven rodents from me. :rofl:
*That would have made a great Gary Larsen cartoon- reminds me of the one he did of a bunch of rattlesnakes crowded into an underground cave & one says
"What was THAT? Something just touched me!" (-getting all creeped-out, lol). FYI, G.L. was also a snake-keeper...he got his insights first hand.

I rescued/re-located rattlesnakes for 20 years in So. Cal.- I kept some that were un-releaseable for whatever reasons (too long in captivity by others, mostly) and
did conservation talks with them (as well as w/ my harmless snakes). I miss them rattle-brats...& there's some here too, but I don't go out to catch & keep. I got
to play "road-guard" once for a huge timber rattlesnake...just moseying across the road. Beautiful.

BTW, I agree with your observation...in all the rattlesnakes I've known** I've never seen one rubbing their face/pushing on the screen tops to get out. I think
they're careful not to damage their faces. (**I lived in the desert, where snakes simply re-located without food & water first are unlikely to survive, so they first
spent some time at my "B & B".) :snake:

Nice that you did some conservation, outreach, and education!
I can kind of understand people's fear, especially with young children or pets. I just hate those who feel it necessary to kill.

I've never seen or heard about any of our native snakes chasing anyone down...

Yes it was pretty funny watching the young snake kill his mouse and then get the willies every time he tried to swallow it. Wish I'd recorded it but smart phones weren't around yet.

Love Gary Larson!

Update! It's been almost two years since I started this thread and I am back to ask for more advice...

My poor corn snake has been dieting this entire time and has lost considerable (?) weight going from almost 1300 grams down to 1053 grams.

I fed a small adult mouse every two weeks for the first year and then switched to a medium adult mouse every two weeks for the second year. I provided as much opportunity for exercise as time allowed and painfully ignored all hungry behaviors...

It is once again time to place my annual Layne Labs order and would I would really like to reward my long suffering snake with a decent meal or two. Is it too soon to bump up to large adult mice? Or maybe alternate large and medium adult mice?

I realize that my snake is still considered "heavy" for it's size (4.3') but it's spinal ridge is becoming fairly prominent which bothers me. I am also concerned that continuing such restrictive rations will end up causing more issues than the obesity itself?

Thanks in advance for any input!!!

I did add some photos to the gallery (Pan 032221 and Pan 032221 II). I can't quite remember how to add them here but will give it a try...https://ball-pythons.net/gallery//sh...mageuser=73594

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I think alternating medium and large mice would work for now. Nice job getting the weight off of her.

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Originally Posted by puddinck

Update! It's been almost two years since I started this thread and I am back to ask for more advice...

My poor corn snake has been dieting this entire time and has lost considerable (?) weight going from almost 1300 grams down to 1053 grams.

I fed a small adult mouse every two weeks for the first year and then switched to a medium adult mouse every two weeks for the second year. I provided as much opportunity for exercise as time allowed and painfully ignored all hungry behaviors...

It is once again time to place my annual Layne Labs order and would I would really like to reward my long suffering snake with a decent meal or two. Is it too soon to bump up to large adult mice? Or maybe alternate large and medium adult mice?

I realize that my snake is still considered "heavy" for it's size (4.3') but it's spinal ridge is becoming fairly prominent which bothers me. I am also concerned that continuing such restrictive rations will end up causing more issues than the obesity itself?

Thanks in advance for any input!!!

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Wow, good job on the "snake diet"! :gj: He looks fine by the way...he's NOT supposed to be built like a ball python.

BUT don't blow it now by buying large adult mice! NO, none. Your beautiful corn snake looks just fine. Remind me, what's his age now? I would just feed medium adult mice every 10-12 days- that is the normal feeding schedule for adult corn snakes, except for those that are senior citizens- their meals can be spaced further apart (@ 2 weeks). You might try feeding every 12 days & see what that does to his "weight" before you go to every 10 days.

Again, :gj:

Remember that in the wild, snakes are eating rodents (& other prey) that are FAR leaner than domestic rodents are.

Really appreciate the advice as I really wanted to pull the trigger on at least SOME large mice for Pan!

It will be an adjustment for me to increase feeding frequency since I feed my Ball every Monday and my Corn every other Monday but I will do what's best for them. I guess I could set up reminders on my phone...

I have no idea what sex or how old this snake is as it was a total rescue from a friend of a friend. I have probably had this snake for eight years but would have to search for my oldest photos to be sure. I always feel a little guilty because I don't love it as much as my Ball. Definitely not a snake species or coloration I would have chosen for myself... So hard to wrangle (so good in reverse!) and takes a perverse pleasure in soiling it's enclosure as soon as I clean it!

I seem to be in the minority though as most people I show it to love the coloration!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by puddinck

Really appreciate the advice as I really wanted to pull the trigger on at least SOME large mice for Pan!

It will be an adjustment for me to increase feeding frequency since I feed my Ball every Monday and my Corn every other Monday but I will do what's best for them. I guess I could set up reminders on my phone...

I have no idea what sex or how old this snake is as it was a total rescue from a friend of a friend. I have probably had this snake for eight years but would have to search for my oldest photos to be sure. I always feel a little guilty because I don't love it as much as my Ball. Definitely not a snake species or coloration I would have chosen for myself... So hard to wrangle (so good in reverse!) and takes a perverse pleasure in soiling it's enclosure as soon as I clean it!

I seem to be in the minority though as most people I show it to love the coloration!

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It's up to you on the feeding...it's flexible, just as snakes have to be in the wild, & it never hurts to have a couple variations in mind. But just know that "large mice" are basically old breeders*, which are high fat content, thus not so healthy for snakes, whose natural diets are lean wild mice- not well-fed domestics. Fatty meals are also harder for snakes to digest. (*I know this because it's not at all cost-effective to raise mice that aren't breeding just to get to this large size to sell. ;) I'm just letting you know this, as I've been a mouse-breeder for literally decades. If they raised mice to this size without breeding them, they'd have to charge a lot more for them, but as it is, large/jumbo mice are the bi-product of breeding mice- they're retired breeders, the ones whose productivity has diminished.)

As far as soiling the enclosure as soon as you clean, that's because the activity you've stirred up also stirred up his urge to go. If you want to avoid this, try handling him a day or hours BEFORE you plan to clean. ;)

That’s a cool looking critter. I think your cornsnake could easily handle larger meals without becoming obese, especially if he’s active or getting regular exercise. I shoot for a healthy, strong, lean, but muscular build for my snakes. That means they get larger meals sometimes. I like to feed a variety of prey sizes and types. At 1kg my kings, which are very similar to corns, were eating medium/large mice, small rats, and day old chicks every 10-14 days.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's up to you on the feeding...it's flexible, just as snakes have to be in the wild, & it never hurts to have a couple variations in mind. But just know that "large mice" are basically old breeders*, which are high fat content, thus not so healthy for snakes, whose natural diets are lean wild mice- not well-fed domestics. Fatty meals are also harder for snakes to digest. (*I know this because it's not at all cost-effective to raise mice that aren't breeding just to get to this large size to sell. ;) I'm just letting you know this, as I've been a mouse-breeder for literally decades. If they raised mice to this size without breeding them, they'd have to charge a lot more for them, but as it is, large/jumbo mice are the bi-product of breeding mice- they're retired breeders, the ones whose productivity has diminished.)

As far as soiling the enclosure as soon as you clean, that's because the activity you've stirred up also stirred up his urge to go. If you want to avoid this, try handling him a day or hours BEFORE you plan to clean. ;)

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I didn't mean to sound argumentative... I totally agree with your recommendations and the logic behind them. I fully intend to purchase medium mice this go-around and slowly increase feeding frequency versus prey size.

My response was more of a complaint than a refusal! Food is love and I hate that Pan's diet must continue... The feeding schedule changes aren't the end of the world for me I am just a very regimented creature of habit. Flexibility is a virtue (or should be??)

My experience with reptiles is long but limited in scope. I have never raised my own feeders (not even crickets!). I have never bred or sold any reptiles. I have never kept large numbers at a time. I have never visited or participated in any expos. Etc, etc, etc... I wouldn't have posted if I wasn't open to suggestions from those more knowledgeable than myself. It's my inexperience with colubrids that caused this situation in the first place!

I am so thankful that this resource is available to me.

As far as soiling the cage goes though... I used to feed Pan in a large bucket and then soak him(?) in warm water until he went. That worked for years! Kept cage clean, kept him clean, kept him hydrated, kept me happy. Then he started taking longer to go (start of diet maybe?) and I worried about keeping the water warm enough. So I started letting him roam around my room after feeding instead (always looking for more food!) but then it is an unpleasant Easter egg hunt later. Now I just feed him in the cage and wait to clean until after he goes. However he will often go again as soon as I'm through! Timing doesn't seem to matter.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

That’s a cool looking critter. I think your cornsnake could easily handle larger meals without becoming obese, especially if he’s active or getting regular exercise. I shoot for a healthy, strong, lean, but muscular build for my snakes. That means they get larger meals sometimes. I like to feed a variety of prey sizes and types. At 1kg my kings, which are very similar to corns, were eating medium/large mice, small rats, and day old chicks every 10-14 days.

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Thanks for input!!! Maybe I should consider a variety of prey items...

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Originally Posted by puddinck

... Food is love and I hate that Pan's diet must continue....

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Food is survival (not love) for a snake, & you shouldn't think of this as a "diet" at all, but actually just feeding him what makes him the healthiest he can be. Food is fuel for the living body, & different kinds of bodies need custom fuel to run their best & for as long as possible without break-downs- just as you don't put diesel in your "unleaded-regular" car & expect to get very far. :cool:

Late to the thread, but congrats on the weight loss for your corn. I had a similar problem with Figment, my male corn. I was feeding large mice and weekly and he got a little chubby. He's pretty long for a corn, probably around 5 feet, but he was getting heavyset and weighed about 660G. I spoke with Don Soderberg from South Mountain Reptiles (Cornsnake.net) who bred my scaleless female corn (Solana). He said that corns are efficient and mousers and to feed no more than an adult mouse (medium/average, etc - 20-30G) every two weeks to get him fit again. Figment lost about 70-75G over a year, looked much healthier, became more active, and is now holding steady at that weight. I'd be happier if he lost a little more, but not too much.

I believe in Don's expertise on corns as he's been breeding them forever.

I also feel that prey size isn't always the best way to manage a snakes weight and even growth. I want to feed the largest healthiest option to my snakes. Different snakes have different metabolisms and "healthy" food depends on the snake. For example, boas do not handle fat as well as many pythons. For that reason, I won't feed my BI's more than large rats and my 2.2kg BI female is on mediums still. I now feed her every 2 weeks instead of every 3-4 to keep her growing, but still feed smaller prey than she can take for easy digestion and lower fat. If she ever grows to the point of needing larger prey, I will probably move to rabbits, but still not feed huge meals.

Regarding corns, I would not feed bigger than an adult mouse. If you think your corn is losing too much weight, or not maintaining where they should be, feed more frequently, up to 1X a week. You can try other prey items occasionally, but adult mice are the perfect food for corns. To get the same nutritional density of an adult mouse in a rat, you would have to feed at least a weaned, but really, a small rat. That's way to big for a corn and will cause an adult to gain weight unnecessarily. Yes, once every once in a while won't kill the snake, but why?

I have never tried avian prey, so I cannot comment on that, but I would keep it small if you offer.

I am not sure I see the benefit of food variety for snakes, especially corn snakes, who eat almost exclusively mice in the wild. Bottom line is the need whole food items with the best nutrition and least fat (ratio).

Keep in mind, once a snake becomes heavy and puts on fat, even if they lose the weight, not all the fat disappears. It's a health and longevity issue. Keep them lean and healthy. It's better than trying to get them to lose weight.

I agree about the feeding plan discussed above. I wanted to share how I get my snakes out to exercise and have stimulation and human socialization. I bought an inexpensive coat rack off Amazon and zip-tied a branch to it. It's very portable. Right now my snake is sitting next to me while I type this. I sometimes have the coat rack in the kitchen while I'm washing dishes, cooking, etc (of course always right in the center of the floor-- no where near anything dangerous!) I also removed the lower couple of coat hooks. You still have to supervise-- snakes will figure out how to get down when they are done with the perching, but even that is good exercise and mental stimulation.

https://scontent.fphx1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...66&oe=60838346

Thanks for the hatrack suggestion!! I've been looking into bird stands and such but they are really expensive. I have also considered making PVC or ABS structures since the snakes could use the interior spaces as welI as the outer but again the fittings are pricey.

I currently use a couple different cat towers (hard to clean but what I already have) as well as two popup screen tents to give them some enrichment and more space. I especially like putting the snakes out on the deck in a tent so they can soak up some natural rays!

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Originally Posted by puddinck

Thanks for the hatrack suggestion!! I've been looking into bird stands and such but they are really expensive. I have also considered making PVC or ABS structures since the snakes could use the interior spaces as welI as the outer but again the fittings are pricey.

I currently use a couple different cat towers (hard to clean but what I already have) as well as two popup screen tents to give them some enrichment and more space. I especially like putting the snakes out on the deck in a tent so they can soak up some natural rays!

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Ladders can always be repurposed for a snake-outing too. I've also seen some impressive 'jungle gyms' made from bamboo poles connected securely with wrapped rope. I use the base for a stand that I found in a thrift store- it's super stable, & I install a vertical branch in it, instead of the metal pole & strange thing that had been at the top of it- still don't know what exactly it was? Ya gotta love thrift stores, lol.