Please Help, Me and My Baby Ball are Desperate

I’ve been debating on whether or not to post on this forum because the community intimidates me a little. I’ve used this forum to research my snake’s issues and even used some of the tips and tricks I’ve found. However, I’m just not getting the responses from my baby that I’ve hoped for so I thought it would be better to submit our specific case instead.


This is going to be long but I know the more information you all have the better you can help us. Thank you so much ahead of time for reading all of this.


First, my history: I have cared for a ball python in the past but she was an adult (8 years old) and a good feeder and I never had any real issues with her. She belonged to my school and I looked after her during breaks and the summer for several years. So I have experience with a ball python, set up, feeding regimen, etc.


Fast forward now, in mid March I got a baby ball python from Petco. I really hope I don’t get any shame for this. When I posted about my baby on other sites, I was ridiculed and degraded for buying from a pet store. I’m not going to justify myself further than: when I saw her in her tank and she slithered towards me all cute with her lovely red eyes, I just fell in love and that was it.


I could see there was something “wrong” with her from the moment I saw her. She was soooo skinny. I could see her spine and her neck was so very thin. I thought she was just a hatchling at first but after questioning the employees, they told me she was 5 months old. She had some stuck shed on her neck. Other than a dirty water bowl, I saw nothing else wrong with her tank at the store (no mites or anything). Over the course of about two weeks, I was in and out of Petco asking for all the info about her they could give me, which to my shock, was not much. They even lied to me about several things including her feeding habits. After sifting through the garbage employees there, I got the truth. She hadn’t eaten for four weeks and her feeding had been sporadic before that.


They would not let me have her feeding log because of “company policy” but here are the highlights:
She arrived to them in late November weighing 105g (they assumed she was around 6 weeks old but I don’t have a hatch date for her)
She started off eating a f/t hopper once a week
She refused for two weeks and they lowered her to fuzzies
She ate a couple times on fuzzies but refused several times and was lowered to pinkies
She ate a couple times on pinkies (normally 2 or 3 in a sitting)
She refused for 4 consecutive weeks up until the day I purchased her
Her weight a few days before I got her was 58g… A huge loss that the employees said was “natural”.


I purchased her anyways. Again, please don’t shame me. I’ve had enough of that. I’m here for help and if you’re serious about helping me, I’d greatly appreciate it if you read all the info I give here. I apologize for it being so long.


Her name is Pythia. She is an albino.
I got her new tank all set up:
20L Tank covered on three sides with dark, foresty wallpaper
Aspen substrate
Basking area (heated by overhead light) avg: 90-93 degrees
Hot side (heated by undertank pad) avg: 86-88 degrees
Cool side avg: 75-78 degrees
Ambient temp: ~83-86 degrees
(Temps taken with one of those laser thermometers not the cheapy pet store dials)
Humidity: between 50-60% (she has a hollowed rock with sphagnum moss in it under the lamp to provide extra humidity if needed during shed)
Two small hides (a half log pressed against back wall of tank and a hollow rock with sphagnum moss)
Lots of plastic plants creating additional hiding spots
Water bowl with enough room to soak
Branch to bask on


Her tank is in my bedroom which has no traffic during the day since I’m at work and not much when I’m at home either other than me.


I left her alone in the tank for three days and offered a f/t fuzzy. I was afraid of how small she was to wait the full suggested week to leave her be so I went ahead and tried to feed her. She refused. Fearing that she might die if she didn’t eat, I assisted her (I did not force feed her). I watched several videos online on how to do it. She took the fuzzy just fine. She didn’t even attempt to spit it out. Whilst opening her mouth, I noticed something stuck in her upper lip. It looked like a piece of her old substrate. I tried to dislodge it but couldn’t and didn’t want to harass her more than I already was.


The next day I got an appt with my vet. He removed the substrate from her mouth; he thought it had probably been in there for quite some time and it was preventing her from flicking her tongue. He checked her belly and found no bumps or obstructions and it was nice and soft. He weighed her and found that she was 69g so I assume Petco just did not weigh her properly because I did not give her a 9g fuzzy. He diagnosed her with a small case of dermatitis and gave me a cream to put on it. He suggested assist feeding 2-3 pinkies every 3-4 days for two weeks to get her weight up. He seemed very concerned about her weight as I was.


I assist fed her just as instructed. I do attempt to have her eat naturally if she wants but she just isn’t interested. She took every pinky just fine, in fact she seemed to slam them down. I noticed that after three feedings (including the first fuzzy) she had not pooed. I gave her a soak in a warm bath and she released her bowels. The stuck shed also came free.


About a week in to this regimen, she shed. A perfect shed, all in one piece. After the initial poo she went just fine afterwards without any additional soaking or anything. The two weeks passed. She looks like she’s gotten a little bigger. Unfortunately, I don’t yet have a scale to weigh her (still waiting on the order to arrive) so I can’t tell her actual weight. She has gotten rounder and doesn’t look quite as triangle shaped. Her spine doesn’t stick out nearly as much but is still visible. Her skin doesn’t wrinkle anymore either.


I attempted to let her feed naturally in her tank with a f/t pinky. I dangled it in front of her hide with some tongs. She seemed sort of interested for a moment and then nothing. I left the pinky in the tank with her overnight and she did not take it. I called the vet and told him what was happening. He instructed me to drop her feeding to two pinkies once a week, instead of twice a week. He wanted to rule out parasites so he got me some dewormer to administer to her. I gave her the first dose last Tuesday (4/9). The instructions state to administer the first dose then wait a week to give the second.


She pooed last Monday and after a few days, I noticed she was very active. Because of her skin condition, I have to handle her daily to put on her cream but it is never for very long (maybe 5 minutes max) and I’ve had her out for longer only a couple of times. The dermatitis has all but disappeared but after her shed, a few more little dots popped up so I’ve been treating them as the vet instructed.


I hoped the activity may have meant she was getting hungry. Saturday night (4/13) was feeding night. I thawed a pinky in warm water and dangled it in front of her hide again. This time, I got a huge feeding response for Pythia (lots of tongue flicking, lots of interest, following its movements). She was so alert and I thought this would be the one but after several minutes of doing the “zombie dance” with this pinky, she didn’t strike. So I left it in her tank, turned off the lights and left her alone for the night with the pinky. In the morning, the pinky was still there.


I waited a few days to give her another chance before assisting so she went about 10 days between feeding. I dangled the pinky into her tank and to my surprise, she struck at it! Because I was not prepared for her striking it (because she never has), I jerked and dropped the pinky. I felt awful because she would have nailed that thing and I messed her up. After that she just wasn’t as interested. I assisted her and she ate one pinky. I also administered her other dose of dewormer. Now, I’m just going to leave her alone for the next week and then see how feeding goes next time.


I’m at a loss, though. I’ve tried different things to get her to feed naturally before assist feeding her, like braining the pinkies (ew, messy). I make sure they’re nice and warm for her. I give her time to eat naturally if she wants (normally around 30-45 minutes) before I decide to assist her. I always feed her at night. I tried boopin her on the nose lightly with the pinky several times to get her to strike but no dice. Now she appears to be afraid of the pinkies and jerks away from them. I just don’t know what else to do. It breaks my heart every time I have to assist her because obviously she doesn’t care to be manhandled like that.
And before anyone gets upset with me for assisting her, the vet said my baby was probably days from death from starvation and our main concern is getting her weight up. Even though we’ve dropped her feeding schedule down to once a week, he still wants me to assist her if she refuses. I really hate doing it but I know I have to to get her weight up.


She is the sweetest snake ever and clearly is showing quite a bit of patience and trust with me after all the harassment I’ve been dealing to her (if I were her I definitely would have bitten me by now). She likes to explore her tank every now and then. She uses the hides equally but has been hanging out on the cool side the last few days. Every now and then she’ll burrow into the aspen shavings. I noticed that behavior more when she was about to shed. She hasn’t really done it since. She drinks normally from what I can tell and she doesn’t appear to be dehydrated. I’ve never noticed any problems with her mouth and believe me, I’ve seen the inside more than I want to. Breathing seems normal so I don’t think she has a respiratory infection and I think the vet would have caught that since he was so thorough with her exam.


The vet is very against live feeding and really wants me to continue with the f/t. I fed live rats to my other snake after she had a long feeding strike so I could go either way but I’m inclined to trust the vet’s opinion.


After all this information, if you’re still reading, you’re a saint. I just want thoughts at this point. Tips, tricks, whatever you can offer as help for us. I just want her to be healthy and happy, she must have been so miserable in that store.

Going to try to help but a picture of your setup and the animal would be helpful.

First. Pinkies are way too small for a ball python even at birth. The food needs to be the same width as the body of the animal. It may not even be recognizing the pinkies as food.

Now I am going to disagree with the vet. I do not feed my 100+ snakes live often. I prefer ft because it is easier. However, in the case of a severely malnourished animal that needs to eat to live, live should be tried before assist feeding. If the vet was so super concerned about the animal's weight, there are other things he should have done to ensure that it got back to health quickly.

My confidence in the vet is not high.

Even a 60g ball python should be eating much more than punky mice. I have a thread up on a rescue BP earlier this year who weighed that much and even she could handle small hopper mice.

It is much better to feed the right size in one prey item than to do multiple and pinkies have so little calcium from undeveloped bones that it isn't as good for her anyway. I would 100% suggest trying a large fuzzy or small hopper. Around 6 grams would be a good size to start with, but I would also only feed every 7 days. Underweight snakes can digest slower especially when they hadn't eaten for a bit, so they have less digestive enzymes going. She seems to have been eating fine, if small food, for a bit, so I doubt that is a big issue here, but slow and steady works best for putting weight safely onto a snake.

You probably won't ever get much weight gain on pinkies. 3 to 4 pinkies is probably 3 to 4 grams unless you have larger ones sold in store than around me has.

Additionally, since the prey is so small, she may simply not see it as food. Once it is in her mouth she realizes it is, but won't strike it as it may not be worth the effort or be too small for her heat pits to pick up.

I'd try a F/T hopper first, but if a week or two trying that fails. I would definitely try a live one. It is best to switch them away from live for safety as their prey gets bigger, but hoppers are pretty small still and move enough to be enticing. In my opinion it is better for her to eat a few live now to get her weight where it should be without continuing to assist feed, then push the issue switching back to frozen or pre-killed once she can handle having a few meals skipped. Hunger is a good motivator, but risky on an underweight snake.

Getting her eating without help to lower her stress as she recovers and getting her weight up are both top priority, and I think bigger single prey items or potentially live ones for a bit are your best chance.

With live feeding, a few precautions can eliminate most chances of injuries to the snake.

1. Only leave a rodent in with the snake while you supervise and watch closely, but not so close your hovering spooks the snake. Standing off to the side with a clear view works well for me.

2. Only offer for 5 to 10 minutes and then remove. You can return the feeder to the store if it is uneaten, as hoppers they are still nursing and may not survive without mom yet. If the snake hasn't eaten in that time, they are not going to eat that week.

3. As soon as you see the strike, visually check how they grabbed and wrapped it. You can see if the rodent has teeth anywhere it could bite the snake or not and if it is a risk you can use tongs to gently hold its head where it cannot bite the snake (or offer it a pencil/eraser to chomp into instead of the snake).

Hope this helps, and I'm sure someone else will chime in with more questions/comments.

(Also, "how DARE you fall in love with a snake at a pet store and buy it??" Kidding!! Buying there isn't ideal for a good experience as you've found out, but it isn't the end of the world.)

Posting pictures of her would help give a visual assessment of her condition as well of you can.

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Thank you for your advice. That's very interesting about her maybe not registering them as food. It never even crossed my mind. The vet did suggest pinkies because she was so small but as I said, I think she's gotten bigger. My vet is a good guy and specializes in reptiles but I always value a second opinion and understand that the vet isn't always right. I may get her a live fuzzy but that may even be a little smaller than her width. My concern is the mouse hurting her but because I've never had a snake this small, I don't actually know at what age a mouse or rat can start to hurt a snake. Obviously pinkies don't have claws or teeth yet and I don't think fuzzies are very dangerous but if I were to go up to a hopper, is there a chance she could get hurt? Again, thank you for your help. I appreciate it so much.

I will attempt to post photos a little later. (I'm at work right now and don't have access to the photos on my computer.)

I read it, and I’m sure others will chime in. Never a good idea to gently bop a snake on the nose (I wouldn't be hungry if someone smacked my face with pizza)Lightly rub it up against the neck or midsection and see if it takes defensive action like tensing up or pushing back with its coils. Make sure they prey is properly “warmed up”. Of course people are going to mention it’s never a great idea to buy a snake from a chain, You now see why first hand. Also your hot temp is definitely a little high for a juvenile. I just don’t think you should be assist feeding so much. If it takes live to getting going, then that’s what it takes, it’s part of being a snake keeper. Best of luck, hope some of this helped.

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

Thank you for your advice. That's very interesting about her maybe not registering them as food. It never even crossed my mind. The vet did suggest pinkies because she was so small but as I said, I think she's gotten bigger. My vet is a good guy and specializes in reptiles but I always value a second opinion and understand that the vet isn't always right. I may get her a live fuzzy but that may even be a little smaller than her width. My concern is the mouse hurting her but because I've never had a snake this small, I don't actually know at what age a mouse or rat can start to hurt a snake. Obviously pinkies don't have claws or teeth yet and I don't think fuzzies are very dangerous but if I were to go up to a hopper, is there a chance she could get hurt? Again, thank you for your help. I appreciate it so much.

I will attempt to post photos a little later. (I'm at work right now and don't have access to the photos on my computer.)

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The smallest thing I have fed to a ball is a hopper mouse. Normally I start with rat fuzzies or pups depending on the size of the baby. A hopper is not going to be able to do much damage to the snake, that said if there is live food in with the snake you should monitor the progress.

Fuzzies aren't developed enough to fight back, so they would be safe, but unless you find big ones it is still a bit too small I think. Especially if she is growing.

Hoppers do have teeth, but are quite small critters still and once wrapped tend to not be able to move far enough to reach and bite unless the wrap was poor (maybe 1 in 20 odds in my experience). As I said, being on hand with something to keep its head away is generally plenty for that size rodent to keep injuries from happening.

I am breeding mice and rats and have been doing live feeding with my rescue girl and even at her extremely weak state at the start she was able to subdue them easily.

Here is her initially when I got her 3 months ago... just some perspective. She felt like a limp noodle when held back then.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...eb627d3892.jpg


However, if you are super worried about bites, you can try something else.. a small fuzzy rat of about 10% her weight would be developmentally similar to the mice but weighs more. A live one of these is harmless, but since she has been eating mice she may be a bit confused by it because they smell different. Some have no issues with switching and others are picky, but if possible this may be another thing to try.

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Is your under-tank heater regulated by a thermostat?

I appreciate the helpful advice from you all. Here are some photos of her:
This was the day I brought her home. The tank was not fully set up so ignore it. I used coconut substrate for the first week I had her until I realized that was what was stuck in her mouth.
https://i.imgur.com/LuAly3M.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/V36hHON.jpg

This photo was taken a few days ago
https://i.imgur.com/k6CPv5I.jpg

This is her tank today (ignore the dials in the back, I don't use them, they're now just crappy decoration)
https://i.imgur.com/GHAgAI9.jpg

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To bcr229: No, her undertank heat pad is not regulated with a thermostat.

Sonny1318 makes a good point about boopin her on the nose with her food. I stopped doing that after she reacted rather strongly by jerking her head away. I have tried gently rubbing it on her side as well but didn't get much of a reaction beyond her tensing. I do keep them warm. I defrost them in warm water and periodically take them away to warm them in my hands when they've been there for a while. But it makes sense that even if I did that, if she doesn't register them as food or they're too small for her heat pits to sense that she still wouldn't strike.

pretends2bnormal: what a cutie! I hope she's doing much better now! I'm a little concerned about her food hurting her but if these babies aren't much of an issue at that age than I feel a little better about trying to feed her live in the near future.

I think after hearing what you all have said, I'm definitely going to move her up food sizes. I think I'll first try a f/t fuzzy or hopper. The place I get my feeders from is pretty cool and they'll let me see the feeders first to see their size. I'll see what they've got and go from there. If she doesn't eat that, then I may try a live fuzzy and see how she does with it.

Thank you all for your gentle responses. I don't regret for a second getting her, even though things may be a little "difficult" right now. I didn't really expect it to be easy given her state when I got her. I hesitate to say I "rescued" her but I'm pretty certain she would have died at Petco and that's a terrible thought to me. I want to take care of her and give her a good life. I think she deserves it.

She looks better than when you got her which is good news, but still as you know, still way too thin. I'm actually surprised the vet did not tube her. Eating needs to be a priority on a 4 to 5 day schedule until she gets up to weight however you can get it done. She is going to be a pretty girl when she gets older.

If those dials are on the inside of the tank and they are stuck on with anything sticky, please get rid of them or you may end up back at the vet. Any kind of tape and snakes do not mix. The worst injuries I have seen with snakes have either been caused by heat or tape.

A thermostat is a must if any heat is being supplied to the enclosure. This is not an optional thing. Look up snake burns and you will see why I say this. Ball pythons are stupid when it comes to heat. They would rather burn than be cold.

Best of luck with her but you need to get a thermostat. An inexpensive one is called Jumpstart, but there are others.

Without a t-stat you'll be amazed how easy it is for a snake to get burned. Even temps that wouldn't hurt you can injure your animal.

On the topic of thermostats, here are some links where you can purchase some! Ideally you'd want to get a proportional thermostat instead of an on/off style one.


Herpstats are top of the line and most recommended. They're more expensive but are well worth it due to their high quality and reliability.

http://www.spyderrobotics.com/index....=index&cPath=1


Vivarium Electronics are also well regarded proportional thermostats.

http://www.reptilebasics.com/thermostats


Jumpstart is a decent and very affordable On/Off thermostat to get started on. However I would treat it more as a placeholder to save up for a higher quality thermostat like a Herpstat, which has a much longer lifespan.

https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Ger.../dp/B000NZZG3S

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Sonny1318

I read it, and I’m sure others will chime in. Never a good idea to gently bop a snake on the nose (I wouldn't be hungry if someone smacked my face with pizza)Lightly rub it up against the neck or midsection and see if it takes defensive action like tensing up or pushing back with its coils. Make sure they prey is properly “warmed up”. Of course people are going to mention it’s never a great idea to buy a snake from a chain, You now see why first hand. Also your hot temp is definitely a little high for a juvenile. I just don’t think you should be assist feeding so much. If it takes live to getting going, then that’s what it takes, it’s part of being a snake keeper. Best of luck, hope some of this helped.

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Not to contradict any good advice but I have an adult bp and most of the time the only way I can get him to take his food is by booping him in the snoot with it. I dangle it every time in front of him and all he does is sniff it until I very lightly boop him and he strikes it every time. All my other snakes will take it after the "zombie dance" he's the only one who won't. I guess every snake is different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toad37

Not to contradict any good advice but I have an adult bp and most of the time the only way I can get him to take his food is by booping him in the snoot with it. I dangle it every time in front of him and all he does is sniff it until I very lightly boop him and he strikes it every time. All my other snakes will take it after the "zombie dance" he's the only one who won't. I guess every snake is different.

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This is true, though I think you have an exception to the norm with that one.

Plus most baby snakes I've seen are even less likely to accept it that way than adults as far as ball pythons go, so that can make a difference too.




OP - You will definitely need to get a thermostat ASAP. It is tied for 1st place as the most important piece of equipment for owning a snake along with the enclosure itself.

I've saved this handy-dandy picture for how to set up thermostat probes, so I'll leave that here in case it is confusing.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...36a1450aca.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

Thank you for your advice. That's very interesting about her maybe not registering them as food. It never even crossed my mind. The vet did suggest pinkies because she was so small but as I said, I think she's gotten bigger. My vet is a good guy and specializes in reptiles but I always value a second opinion and understand that the vet isn't always right. I may get her a live fuzzy but that may even be a little smaller than her width. My concern is the mouse hurting her but because I've never had a snake this small, I don't actually know at what age a mouse or rat can start to hurt a snake. Obviously pinkies don't have claws or teeth yet and I don't think fuzzies are very dangerous but if I were to go up to a hopper, is there a chance she could get hurt? Again, thank you for your help. I appreciate it so much.

I will attempt to post photos a little later. (I'm at work right now and don't have access to the photos on my computer.)

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FYI, rats or mice with eyes closed DO NOT FIGHT (BITE) BACK...they are safe...virtually living meatballs (sorry). I prefer to feed f/t or fresh killed rodents whenever
possible...but right now, in this instance, it's not possible. You don't want a snake to go so long with too little food that their immune system is suffering...you can &
should switch them later, but first "let them be a snake" (use their instincts to survive) so they don't become sick. It's much easier to keep a snake healthy than to get
them well again. Vets are mostly there for medical help...I prefer to consider them a last resort, as husbandry issues are generally not their strength. I would get a
fuzzy mouse or rat (eyes closed) for this snake 'in a heartbeat'...and don't feel guilty.

Now "hoppers" are a different ballgame...it depends what the seller means by hopper...some mean active larger fuzzies with eyes closed, while others mean eyes open-
risk is still minimal from a hopper with eyes open, but I would avoid that...get the largest mouse with eyes closed that you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toad37

Not to contradict any good advice but I have an adult bp and most of the time the only way I can get him to take his food is by booping him in the snoot with it. I dangle it every time in front of him and all he does is sniff it until I very lightly boop him and he strikes it every time. All my other snakes will take it after the "zombie dance" he's the only one who won't. I guess every snake is different.

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I agree that it's not the first thing to try, as "booping" will turn OFF many snakes (especially timid ones as most BPs are), BUT...there are some snakes that didn't
"read the manual" & for whom this works well. :gj: Gotta read (interpret) each snake...they have their own personalities...and do whatever works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toad37

Not to contradict any good advice but I have an adult bp and most of the time the only way I can get him to take his food is by booping him in the snoot with it. I dangle it every time in front of him and all he does is sniff it until I very lightly boop him and he strikes it every time. All my other snakes will take it after the "zombie dance" he's the only one who won't. I guess every snake is different.

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Yup. All different. The zombie dance is pretty reliable though. One of my girls will only eat if I bang the rat against the side of the tub. This was a learned behavior and a long story. From her I learned with enough repetition I could get most of them to eat how I want them to eat. I prefer to feed FT without having the rat directly on the paper. So for the snakes that I am going to have around for awhile, they are conditioned to take rats hanging by the tail. For girls that I know I will never sell, this has evolved into getting them to raise up cobra like (I don't recommend this, it is a good way to get bitten but it keeps me on my toes and entertained when I have a lot of animals to feed). The best feeding behavior I have seen is displayed by just one of my girls. I crack her tub open and she will casually come about halfway out take a rat out of the bucket and return to her tub.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Yup. All different. The zombie dance is pretty reliable though. One of my girls will only eat if I bang the rat against the side of the tub. This was a learned behavior and a long story. From her I learned with enough repetition I could get most of them to eat how I want them to eat. I prefer to feed FT without having the rat directly on the paper. So for the snakes that I am going to have around for awhile, they are conditioned to take rats hanging by the tail. For girls that I know I will never sell, this has evolved into getting them to raise up cobra like (I don't recommend this, it is a good way to get bitten but it keeps me on my toes and entertained when I have a lot of animals to feed). The best feeding behavior I have seen is displayed by just one of my girls. I crack her tub open and she will casually come about halfway out take a rat out of the bucket and return to her tub.

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I would loooove to see a video of that!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Yup. All different. The zombie dance is pretty reliable though. One of my girls will only eat if I bang the rat against the side of the tub. This was a learned behavior and a long story. From her I learned with enough repetition I could get most of them to eat how I want them to eat. I prefer to feed FT without having the rat directly on the paper. So for the snakes that I am going to have around for awhile, they are conditioned to take rats hanging by the tail. For girls that I know I will never sell, this has evolved into getting them to raise up cobra like (I don't recommend this, it is a good way to get bitten but it keeps me on my toes and entertained when I have a lot of animals to feed). The best feeding behavior I have seen is displayed by just one of my girls. I crack her tub open and she will casually come about halfway out take a rat out of the bucket and return to her tub.

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I've got a young male right now who did something similar to the bucket thing this week.

I usually crack tubs open enough to feed before I blow dry the rats to get the smell and heat them up, but this boy just popped out and snapped it right out of the tongs "cold" (aka room temp, about 75) before I could heat it at all.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toad37

I would loooove to see a video of that!!!

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The bucket one? I'm going to shoot one now that it has become consistent. She did it once like a year ago on her own and I have been reinforcing the behavior ever since. This time a year though, she and most of my other girls are off food and super pregnant. First clutch of the year was laid last week by a very old female that had never laid for me before. I thought she was going to have six eggs tops. She gave me 11 so she kind of made up for her laziness over the last 3 years I have had her. Anyway maybe I will start to make some videos. I have been very hesitant to do so because many of the things I do are not conventional and I don't want to listen to people's "expert" opinions. I am not for the most part talking about people on here, just the youtube world in general. I am now kind of at a point though that I don't care if people don't agree. My snakes are healthy, have "character", and it is looking like I will be well over 200 eggs this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

I've got a young male right now who did something similar to the bucket thing this week.

I usually crack tubs open enough to feed before I blow dry the rats to get the smell and heat them up, but this boy just popped out and snapped it right out of the tongs "cold" (aka room temp, about 75) before I could heat it at all.

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Yeah, that's cool. It is the kind of behavior you can mess with if you want. You have to be careful though that the rat is the the warmest thing in the vicinity or they can get confused and worst case go for your face. I think it is funny when they get that excited but I am pretty nimble for an old dude. My wife has gotten tagged a couple of times on her hands though because she doesn't always do the mental reset that even the most docile ball can get really excited when they smell rat.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

The bucket one? I'm going to shoot one now that it has become consistent. She did it once like a year ago on her own and I have been reinforcing the behavior ever since. This time a year though, she and most of my other girls are off food and super pregnant. First clutch of the year was laid last week by a very old female that had never laid for me before. I thought she was going to have six eggs tops. She gave me 11 so she kind of made up for her laziness over the last 3 years I have had her. Anyway maybe I will start to make some videos. I have been very hesitant to do so because many of the things I do are not conventional and I don't want to listen to people's "expert" opinions. I am not for the most part talking about people on here, just the youtube world in general. I am now kind of at a point though that I don't care if people don't agree. My snakes are healthy, have "character", and it is looking like I will be well over 200 eggs this year.

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I love that attitude. It doesn't matter what's "conventional" as long as your animals are happy and healthy.

Back to you OP. From the pictures you posted your BP looks to be improving significantly! She still has some weight she needs to put on but your on the right track with her. You've come to the right place for good advice and I'm sorry the other forums talked down to you instead of tried to help. I agree that a thermostat is definitely needed but other than that just try to take in all the information and advice you can and use what works best for you and your BP. Good luck with everything and I expect to hear good news soon! She's beautiful btw!!

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

The bucket one? I'm going to shoot one now that it has become consistent. She did it once like a year ago on her own and I have been reinforcing the behavior ever since. This time a year though, she and most of my other girls are off food and super pregnant. First clutch of the year was laid last week by a very old female that had never laid for me before. I thought she was going to have six eggs tops. She gave me 11 so she kind of made up for her laziness over the last 3 years I have had her. Anyway maybe I will start to make some videos. I have been very hesitant to do so because many of the things I do are not conventional and I don't want to listen to people's "expert" opinions. I am not for the most part talking about people on here, just the youtube world in general. I am now kind of at a point though that I don't care if people don't agree. My snakes are healthy, have "character", and it is looking like I will be well over 200 eggs this year.

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Conventional or not, I'd love to see videos. If you get haters or jerk comments, just turn them off and ignore it. If nothing else, link us the videos on here! :)

I use pretty long tongs despite them being babies because once they smell rats, most of mine will strike at my face from 4 feet away anyway. No one lands a hit, but if I stuck my hand in I would bet most would not hesitate to try human. It means I have good eaters, so I'm happy. That one is the newest BP addition and his appetite matches my banana boy from last year who got to over 1,000g by about 14 months old.

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

I’ve been debating on whether or not to post on this forum because the community intimidates me a little. I’ve used this forum to research my snake’s issues and even used some of the tips and tricks I’ve found....

Fast forward now, in mid March I got a baby ball python from Petco. I really hope I don’t get any shame for this. When I posted about my baby on other sites, I was ridiculed and degraded for buying from a pet store. I’m not going to justify myself further than: when I saw her in her tank and she slithered towards me all cute with her lovely red eyes, I just fell in love and that was it....

I purchased her anyways. Again, please don’t shame me. I’ve had enough of that. I’m here for help...

....He wanted to rule out parasites so he got me some dewormer to administer to her...

I’m at a loss, though. I’ve tried different things...like braining the pinkies (ew, messy). I make sure they’re nice and warm for her. I give her time to eat naturally if she wants (normally around 30-45 minutes) before I decide to assist her. I always feed her at night. I tried boopin her on the nose lightly with the pinky several times to get her to strike but no dice. Now she appears to be afraid of the pinkies and jerks away from them. I just don’t know what else to do. It breaks my heart every time I have to assist her because obviously she doesn’t care to be manhandled like that.

And before anyone gets upset with me for assisting her, the vet said my baby was probably days from death from starvation and our main concern is getting her weight up. Even though we’ve dropped her feeding schedule down to once a week, he still wants me to assist her if she refuses. I really hate doing it but I know I have to to get her weight up....

After all this information, if you’re still reading, you’re a saint. I just want thoughts at this point. Tips, tricks, whatever you can offer as help for us. I just want her to be healthy and happy, she must have been so miserable in that store.

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First off, :welcome: It makes me sad that you were afraid to post here, afraid of being pounced on as happened elsewhere. There are downsides to buying from pet
stores, but at some point most of us have. Not all pet stores are bad, nor are all their personnel (we actually have a few members here that work in these places &
they do everything in their power...) but that's water under the bridge...this is your snake now, & you have a great attitude going forward & putting her first. :gj:

You are among snake-lovers here...we want to help you to help your snake & we don't give up unless you do...& maybe not even then. ;)

As you guessed, de-worming does increase a snake's appetite, & when a snake is underweight, or losing weight, it's a good thing to try.

I'm not a fan of assist-feeding as it goes against a snake's natural behavior...how can they not come to fear the prey which not only 'surrenders' to them but pretty
much jumps down their throat? For any snake that is "days from death by starvation" I personally tube-feed a liquid diet (thinned Gerber's chicken baby food) but
had your vet tried that, she may have regurgitated it by the time you got her home- it's best done at home where the snake isn't bounced around in a car & is handled
very minimally. Tube feeding is never your first option- it's not that hard & gives readily digestible nutrition that often perks up a snake's appetite after only 1 or 2
times (think of it like the I.V. a sick human gets in the hospital...without which they never have the energy to get well) without giving the snake a negative association
with the prey they're supposed to be eating...but it requires some specific instructions & a few specific items. We can talk more about it later...first, you need to try
live (eyes-closed) prey...it's what snakes evolved eating & it's by far the best option.

Most snakes ARE miserable in pet stores...you are so lucky she doesn't have mites, at least, but conditions are rarely very good in stores. Usually the humidity is too
low, they are over or under-heated & cannot thermo-regulate, & they have a lack of privacy, plus they are handled too much because they are there to be sold...:(
so let's get this girl healthy! :)

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

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....I do keep them warm. I defrost them in warm water and periodically take them away to warm them in my hands when they've been there for a while. But it makes sense that even if I did that, if she doesn't register them as food or they're too small for her heat pits to sense that she still wouldn't strike......

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So I wonder if you are maybe getting too much of your sent on the food item by warming it in your hands. Not sure I would want the little one to associate my sent with food. I could be wrong though as I am getting back into snakes after a decade off. It is commonly recommended to use a hair dryer to warm up pray items before offering. I have a 6 month old that is only a few weeks with us that acts afraid of the rats and has only struck out once and I think it was a defensive strike and not a food strike. I leave it on a fake leaf after doing the zombie dance for a minute and then a quick re-heat with hair dryer in front of his hide about 6 inches. So far he has eaten 2 within an hour or so after we leave with all lights off.

This method WORKS if done properly ...
I wait until evening as they're nocturnal of course then thaw naturally in the snake room , sometimes on a heatmat and sometimes put the rodent/s in a sealed plastic bag and dunk in really warm water ( if I'm short of tirme) . A couple of mine are super sensitive and won't take anything dunked in water - presumably they don't smell mousy enough ?

So then when I'm due to feed , I make sure the viv is unlocked and there's some card on top of the substrate to minimise bark ingestion ... Then I get the mouse/rat by the tail in some tongs and give the rodents head / top half a 10 to 15 second blast with the hairdryer ( hottest setting ) .... then IMMEDIATELY dangle it in front of the snake . They're usually ready and waiting .... Mine all now prefer to strike from inside their hides so I dangle it in front of the entrance for about 15 seconds but no longer as it cools down quickly , if there's a hint of interest such as head movement or tongue flicking then that gives me confidence and I repeat the procedure .... Hot blast and immediately offer ..... repeat as often as it takes ... If there is simply no interest though , either it's going into shed or not hungry ( couple of mine eat every two weeks even though I offer every week just in case



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Originally Posted by gunkle

So I wonder if you are maybe getting too much of your sent on the food item by warming it in your hands. Not sure I would want the little one to associate my sent with food. I could be wrong though as I am getting back into snakes after a decade off. It is commonly recommended to use a hair dryer to warm up pray items before offering. I have a 6 month old that is only a few weeks with us that acts afraid of the rats and has only struck out once and I think it was a defensive strike and not a food strike. I leave it on a fake leaf after doing the zombie dance for a minute and then a quick re-heat with hair dryer in front of his hide about 6 inches. So far he has eaten 2 within an hour or so after we leave with all lights off.

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Good catch, gunkle! Many snakes DO notice* though I'm not sure that BPs will or not. Still, it's best to avoid any scent confusion. If anything, it won't likely teach a
BP to consider you as dinner...it will only make them refuse the rodent because it smells "wrong". Blow-dryer is a much better way to heat up rodents.

*I had a rat snake that I could hand-feed, but she'd only take it if I held it between my thumb & forefinger, sticking out a little ways. If I had it on the flat palm of my
hand, she could smell it but she got too much of my scent also to take a chance, lol. You cannot depend on most snakes to be that careful- FYI that was a Trans Pecos,
a typically mellow snake from the desert southwest & one of my favorite kinds...they have excellent vision too.

I would add more clutter in your 20gallon long. And use smaller, identical hides. Those half logs are useless for shy snakes. I would not use the overhead light unless your cold side drops below 75-77 F. Keeping the tank dark and quiet helps which means covering 3 sides of your tank. You need A thermostat on that heat mat. You don't want to follow Petco's example of how tanks should be set up for any animal.

Actually, if I were you, I would ditch the tank and follow Deborah's sticky regarding how to get your snake to eat. Downsizing and making the enclosure feel small and crowded is key to helping it feel secure enough to eat. It worked for me and many others. Security is just as important as husbandry for ball pythons.

Live feeding helps tremendously. When my bp and my Dumerils boa refuse food, once they feel secure and husbandry is on point, a live mouse or rat is taken without hesitation. Transition to frozen later. Your priority is to get it to eat first.

Thank you all so much for all your advice. I'm really happy with how welcoming people have been here. I'm still digesting all of this wonderful information and starting to make a plan for the next week or so to see how she does. I won't be feeding her pinkies anymore after everything you all have said. I'll definitely get on top of a thermostat too, so thank you for your suggestions and that graphic is super helpful too. She's chilling out in her log right now though she really likes to wrap herself around this plastic plant and stick her head a little through the log. She really loves her plants so I may make another trip to the craft store to pick up a few more to clutter her tank up a bit.

A question I would like to ask, as it was touched on above. Do you all lay cardboard or something over the substrate to minimize them eating the substrate? I'm so worried she might get some stuck in her mouth and I really don't want to take her out to eat anymore. I'd much rather her feel safe enough in her tank to eat.

Again, everyone has been so helpful so thank you so much!

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

...
A question I would like to ask, as it was touched on above. Do you all lay cardboard or something over the substrate to minimize them eating the substrate? I'm so worried she might get some stuck in her mouth and I really don't want to take her out to eat anymore. I'd much rather her feel safe enough in her tank to eat....

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Yes, for sure. It can be a box lid, a plastic plate, whatever...just not cloth or paper towels (their teeth can catch & pull it in along with food swallowed).

I now keep snakes other than BPs, & on safer substrate*, plus most of my snakes eat right from tongs...but when I kept BPs & for any that this concern applies to,
yes I do the same thing. (*what I use for my colubrids isn't recommended for BPs)

Zincubus touched on this (in above post)- BPs are ambush hunters, they feel safer lying in wait (peeking out from a hide) so that's what you want to look for
before you offer food. Feed in evening...and don't offer too often (more than once a week usually stresses them more, & into not eating)

Feeding live fuzzies (aka crawlers): one good way to do this for shy snakes is to leave it overnight (lights out) in a heavy tip-proof flat bottomed bowl,
and the snake will follow it's scent & hopefully pounce on it when it finally feels safe & unwatched. Bowls that work well are about 3" deep, so the prey
cannot escape, & the snake can easily reach in. Those heavy ceramic pet bowls work well for this.

It's not about assisting it's about getting them back on track and this is what needs to be done to a T https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101

So I'm looking into these thermostats and thermometers and I just had a question about the set up that pretends2bnormal posted. Do I need to get a probed thermometer as well? That may seem like a silly question but I've been using one of those laser thermometers to measure the temps of the tank in general.

The thermostat is just for the heat pad, right? Sorry if that's silly, I just want to make sure.

Yes the thermostat is just for the heat pad.

I like the IR point thermometers or temperature guns so I can take readings all over the enclosure, but the probed ones are good for when I walk by the enclosure it's ingrained now to glance at the thermometer and ensure that the hot spot temp is ok.

Company policy is to ALWAYS give the customer the feed and shed log.


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Originally Posted by Lusiphera

Company policy is to ALWAYS give the customer the feed and shed log.


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Sorry to chime in with something seemingly random but that stuck out to me because it’s just untrue. And I’m just plus 1ing what everyone has said about thermostats. I’m going to pick up a rescue in the morning with severe burns and it’s devastating. She’s a beautiful girl, please keep us updated.




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GUYS, PYTHIA ATE TODAY ALL BY HERSELF!!! SHE EVEN KILLED HER OWN FOOD!! I'M SO PROUD OF MY GIRL!

https://i.imgur.com/zkj8mdC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qJKRq7f.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9yaRMVY.jpg


She ate it ass first like a newb but she still ate. I watched very carefully. The store gave me a small hopper because all their fuzzies were kind of tiny and because its eyes were open, I was making sure it wasn't going to hurt my baby. It took a little while for her to come around to it but she grabbed it. There wasn't really a strike. She more moved around to its hind end and bit down and quickly wrapped around it but I think she got a pretty good hold on it. She then proceeded to yank it tail first off the cardboard I laid down but I tried. I didn't see much substrate stuck to it though.

I really appreciate everyone's advice because we would not be here if not for your help and encouragement.

Lusiphera: thank you for your reply. It didn't sit right with me either. I tried and tried to get it but the care manager said that because it had Petco's logo on it, she wasn't allowed to give it to me. I even asked to take a photo of it and she refused. So I just tried to memorize the highlights from it while she let me look it over. She was a real pain in the ass. She was the one who said it was normal for her to be off feed for that long. She also thought she wasn't that skinny and told me to wait 2 WEEKS to feed her after I got her. I later complained to my Petco's regional office about her and the other employees care of the animals there. I don't know if they did anything but I couldn't just let that slide.

I am working on getting a thermostat asap. I have to save up a little but luckily my next paycheck is around the corner so we should have one here soon.

That's great to hear!!! Congratulations!

Great news! :gj: :dance:You & especially Pythia did great!

BTW, sometimes large fuzzies with eyes closed can quickly turn into hoppers with eyes open (like, by the time you feed). You made the right call...it wasn't a big risk.

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

GUYS, PYTHIA ATE TODAY ALL BY HERSELF!!! SHE EVEN KILLED HER OWN FOOD!! I'M SO PROUD OF MY GIRL!

https://i.imgur.com/zkj8mdC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qJKRq7f.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9yaRMVY.jpg


She ate it ass first like a newb but she still ate. I watched very carefully. The store gave me a small hopper because all their fuzzies were kind of tiny and because its eyes were open, I was making sure it wasn't going to hurt my baby. It took a little while for her to come around to it but she grabbed it. There wasn't really a strike. She more moved around to its hind end and bit down and quickly wrapped around it but I think she got a pretty good hold on it. She then proceeded to yank it tail first off the cardboard I laid down but I tried. I didn't see much substrate stuck to it though.

I really appreciate everyone's advice because we would not be here if not for your help and encouragement.

Lusiphera: thank you for your reply. It didn't sit right with me either. I tried and tried to get it but the care manager said that because it had Petco's logo on it, she wasn't allowed to give it to me. I even asked to take a photo of it and she refused. So I just tried to memorize the highlights from it while she let me look it over. She was a real pain in the ass. She was the one who said it was normal for her to be off feed for that long. She also thought she wasn't that skinny and told me to wait 2 WEEKS to feed her after I got her. I later complained to my Petco's regional office about her and the other employees care of the animals there. I don't know if they did anything but I couldn't just let that slide.

I am working on getting a thermostat asap. I have to save up a little but luckily my next paycheck is around the corner so we should have one here soon.

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That’s fantastic! There’s nothing like getting a rescue to eat!

I couldn’t believe that when I read it. Cfi3


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so i read through your whole thread, and i just wanna say welcome! i'd like to think we're an approachable bunch. :aww:

honestly it's, like, a personal policy of mine to not chastise anyone for purchasing an animal from a petstore. at that point what's done is done; there's nothing we can do besides try and spread information.

and it's the problems you're dealing with right now that make people so passionate about the topic. but i'm glad she finally ate for you!!! progress is progress.

i just wanna parrot some of the points i agreed with above:

• no more assist feeding. no no no. you do not assist feed an animal that knows how to eat.
• get a Jumpstart thermostat ASAP. yes it's cheap but it's better than running a heat mat unregulated; you're figuratively playing with fire. keep saving for a better one.
• stop using your hands on the feeders; use plastic baggies to keep the smell in as much as possible.
• i also recommend more clutter in the enclosure.
• lower hot-spot temps are more appropriate for a baby beep; i try to keep young ones at 88° F max.
• try not to be so averse to live prey: these animals are built to be perfect dispatchers of their prey almost from the get-go. their strength and speed is truly incredible, even as babies!
• i can absolutely see improvement in how the snake looks. remember that she's making progress so try not to worry and stress so much.

I feel ya there...I read and read and read some more before I bought mine three weeks ago and thought I knew what I was getting into...totally wrong! There is so much more to husbandry that I never even heard mentioned in all the stuff that I read. I'm so glad I found this forum! Everyone here so far has been super helpful and extremely knowledgeable.

Just to keep everyone updated, Pythia has now eaten for the third time all by herself. She seems to be doing great and I'm so appreciative of everyone's help on here!

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

Just to keep everyone updated, Pythia has now eaten for the third time all by herself. She seems to be doing great and I'm so appreciative of everyone's help on here!

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:carrot::dance::pinkele::dance::banana: Happy Dance! Way to go!

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

Just to keep everyone updated, Pythia has now eaten for the third time all by herself. She seems to be doing great and I'm so appreciative of everyone's help on here!

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Congratulation. Sounds like that noodle was lucky you found her. Good job!

I’m so glad your snake started eating!

I just wanted to add from your your original post you mentioned that the store refused to grant you access to the feeding logs. It is AGAINST policy NOT to share them. I also bought my snake from Petco and the first thing they did when I asked was pull out the feeding logs. They also were really helpful in getting my snake to eat because she refused for a few weeks and I was feeling super stressed.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

Just to keep everyone updated, Pythia has now eaten for the third time all by herself. She seems to be doing great and I'm so appreciative of everyone's help on here!

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You'll have to share another picture here soon!

I'm glad the petco you went to was so helpful. Mine is just trash unfortunately. I thought it was really strange that they wouldn't give them to me. They said that because the Petco logo was on the piece of paper, they couldn't let me have it. I thought that was nonsense and asked if I could take a photo for my own purposes. They also refused. I was only able to look at it while she was standing there with me and she got really impatient with me for taking so long. They gave me nothing but terrible advice and clearly their pet care manager knew absolutely nothing about taking care of snakes. I reported her to that Petco and to the regional hq about our situation and Pythia's condition when I got her. They never replied (I didn't really expect them to).

The only thing that matters is that Pythia is getting healthier and healthier by the day. She's been eating once a week like clock work since we tried live. She did get scratched by the hopper last week though. Just a little cut on her back. I'm keeping it clean and it looks as though it has scabbed over now. She's getting better at getting good holds on the hoppers. I think last week was just a fluke.

I weighed her for the first time since the vet visit a couple weeks ago. She weighs 100g! I know that's still way underweight but it just makes me happy that we're on the right track!

And I will try to post a photo as soon as I can! (At work right now)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

It's not about assisting it's about getting them back on track and this is what needs to be done to a T https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101

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OP... Please take the above advice. In my opinion that 20L is waaaay to big for that snake and it doesn't feel secure. When they don't feel secure feeding is the first thing that goes. I know a ton of focus and comments have went into temps and thermostats which all need to be said but the FIRST thing I would do with that snake is put it in something a LOT smaller as far as the enclosure goes. The above advice is the best I have seen on this long thread.

I will give you an example:

I purchased a BEAUTIFUL sub-adult from an excellent breeder a while back.. He was used to being in a rack. I wanted to keep him in a rack but my son insisted on a larger tank to "show him off..." Like I expected, he food struck him for 3 weeks.. I cleared a rack space for him, gave him 3-4 days to settle in and dropped live prey in there and BANG... Have had no feeding issues since.

To close it out, get that snake out of that big tank and into something smaller and it should eat. Once the snake is on track you can always transition it back to a tank.

Good luck..

Moose84... thanks for the advice but my snake is already eating and it wasn't her tank that was the problem. She has more than enough places to hide and her tank is very cluttered and secure. I'm sorry that your son had an issue with a snake in a big tank but my snake is eating just fine now as my above posts say.

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Originally Posted by traveling_classicist

Moose84... thanks for the advice but my snake is already eating and it wasn't her tank that was the problem. She has more than enough places to hide and her tank is very cluttered and secure. I'm sorry that your son had an issue with a snake in a big tank but my snake is eating just fine now as my above posts say.

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Great..