heat mats all failing

I have three enclosures that require heat mats. In the last couple of months I've had to replace all three of them. One was an Exo-terra brand, one was an expensive Zoo Med brand, and one was a generic no-name brand. I'm wondering if this is typical for them to only last a 1- 1.5 years? I also wonder if they are breaking because we have them attached to temperature regulators, so maybe they turn on and off frequently, and this causes them to burn out faster?

Any thoughts or suggestions for replacement products, or how to keep them lasting longer?

I don't trust those companies for anything beyond a glass tank. Other people may have different experiences.
I use Ultratherm mats from Reptile basics. Never had a problem.

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Originally Posted by distaff

I don't trust those companies for anything beyond a glass tank. Other people may have different experiences.
I use Ultratherm mats from Reptile basics. Never had a problem.

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Do you use thermostats with them? What brand?

Mostly Vivarium Electronics and Herpstat. I prefer VE for the way they look, and I find them MUCH easier to set; I always have to get out the printed instructions with the Herpstat. Nevertheless, I did get one lemon VE early on (along with a bunch of branded VE digital thermometers that had faulty incomplete readouts from the get-go), and swore off that brand for a long time. I only tentatively tried again with VE recently. In case one goes wonky, I purchased the VE t-stat in the single port configuration (VE-200). That way, I've lost $100, rather than $200, and only one heater is down.

I have a couple of cheap HydroFarms also, but they will be replaced in the next couple of months. They don't seem to harm the mats any. Not sure if the temp variation is really a problem for the snakes or not, I have them with one of the coulbrids.

I've measured the temps the Ultratherm gets w/o a t-stat, and they get MUCH too hot (my temp gun recorded 110F+), despite what the packaging used(?) to state. In a pinch once, I did set the mat on a tile, and raised the enclosure well above it, but RISKY!!, esp. with a Sterilite tub that has a somewhat flexible bottom.

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Originally Posted by FollowTheSun

Any thoughts or suggestions for replacement products, or how to keep them lasting longer?

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I've had a few commercial heating pads fail/melt due to lack of air exchange. If I'm using a display tank on a level table I have to stick an eraser under one edge of the tank to give the heating pad air flow. I don't know the physics of it: I just know it works.

I don't understand the physics of that either.

Why do people insist the mat has to "breathe"? Air should be no different (just more efficient) of a heat sink than foam, tile, plastic, or glass. As long as the mat is regulated at a reptile suitable temp, why can't it be directly sandwiched between the tank/tub bottom, and the rigid foam board or tile underneath?

I would rather not loose expensive heat to the rest of the room where it does no good.

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

I don't know the physics of it: I just know it works.

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Originally Posted by distaff

I don't understand the physics of that either.

Why do people insist the mat has to "breathe"?

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ELI5: when air gets hot, the molecules in it start moving and bouncing around super fast as they have lots of energy now and they try to move to somewhere cooler. as they're flying about, they're also more likely to run into each other, which creates even more heat and energy. if the molecules cannot "escape" like they want, they'll keep running into one another and the temperature can rise exponentially.

that hot air HAS to be able to go somewhere, because physics.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

ELI5: when air gets hot, the molecules in it start moving and bouncing around super fast as they have lots of energy now and they try to move to somewhere cooler. as they're flying about, they're also more likely to run into each other, which creates even more heat and energy. if the molecules cannot "escape" like they want, they'll keep running into one another and the temperature can rise exponentially.

that hot air HAS to be able to go somewhere, because physics.

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I don't see how that works. The molecules themselves can't create extra energy; the only energy the molecules have is the ambient temp in the room, and energy the heat mat itself puts out. The heat will dissipate to cooler areas, but it can't rise on it's own. 2ed Law, right? The heat is already the lowest form of energy, and that is all we started with, so we can't expect the space to convert into more heat.

The hot air will only create increased air pressure in a contained space. This isn't a pressure cooker, I don't see it blowing anything up, so I still don't understand how a sandwiched space with essentially no air on either side will harm the mat.

Someone please clarify, if I am mis-understanding this.

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Originally Posted by distaff

I don't see how that works. The molecules themselves can't create extra energy; the only energy the molecules have is the energy the heat mat already put out. The heat will dissipate, but it can't rise. 2ed Law, right? The heat is already the lowest form of energy, and that is all we started with, so we can't expect the space to convert into more heat.

Someone please clarify, if I am mis-understanding this.

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the molecules create more heat/energy when they bounce off one another. it's small, but remember that these molecules are "trapped" and cannot escape, so they just keep bouncing around and likely hitting other molecules.

add a steady supply of energy (the heating element) the molecules will continue to bounce off one another, which increases the energy/heat of the molecules.

there's a decent summary at the end of this page here:
http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/c...rmal/heat.html

im not a physicist but i work directly with them and have had this explained to me before and ive animated similar concepts. im also likely not explaining this 100% accurately.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

there's a decent summary at the end of this page here:
http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/c...rmal/heat.html

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from that source:

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The more energy that goes into a system, the more active its molecules are. The faster molecules move, the more heat or thermal energy they create. So, the amount of heat a substance has is determined by how fast its molecules are moving, which in turn depends on how much energy is put into it.

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the trapping of the air creates a positive feedback loop that can create a lot of heat.

(edit: i think that's what that's called...a feedback loop)

If that were the case, you would need an air space on both sides of the heat mat, and they wouldn't make stick-mats.

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Originally Posted by distaff

If that were the case, you would need an air space on both sides of the heat mat, and they wouldn't make stick-mats.

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being attached to something solid doesn't create this problem because the molecules have a place to "go" and solid objects hold heat better, needing less energy overall.

heat mats use radiant heat. they have to expend a lot of their energy to travel through the solid object, but the solid object holds onto the heat, so less energy is needed to maintain a certain temp.

It's my understanding (as a multi-decades user of UTH, mostly Flexwatt but have tried others too) per the instructions with Flexwatt (!) that the "breathing
space" is so the mat itself doesn't over-heat. Simple. In a confined space under cages, the heat builds up because the cage (w/ substrate & all) & whatever
it's sitting on all acts as insulation...and it's the over-heating that can cause it to fail. I can't speak for the installation instructions with those other UTH brands,
but if your thermostat is "on-off" type, and they are capable of getting way hotter than they should, maybe they should specify to only use them with a proportional thermostat??? Since my Flexwatt has lasted for DECADES, I tend to think the "breathing space" is essential.

And about Ultratherm: I "second" the fact that those get way too hot! They seem to be a quality product, but it's not my choice for my mostly-colubrids.

I do think the constant off-off type of regulation might be responsible for the other UTH brands burning out so fast...the ones you bought might also be
"counterfeit" products...ever think of that? Thanks to unscrupulous companies & insufficient regulation* (I know some of you think that's a nasty* word...)
these "fakes" end up in our world, where they might cause all sorts of havoc (like automotive failures > fatal accidents, break-downs in media, etc).

How bout a human heating pad?
BUT you do have to have air flow so tank needs to be elevated NOT sitting directly on top of it. No chance of snake obtaining a burn either.

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

How bout a human heating pad?
BUT you do have to have air flow so tank needs to be elevated NOT sitting directly on top of it. No chance of snake obtaining a burn either.

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You can use them in a pinch, temporarily, but they do say NOT to cover them. And I'm not so sure the quality is any better than UTH made for snakes, so?
I don't know of anyone using them long-term, do you? And they sure can't be taped under a cage, they're bulky.

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

How bout a human heating pad?
BUT you do have to have air flow so tank needs to be elevated NOT sitting directly on top of it. No chance of snake obtaining a burn either.

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I wouldn't say "no chance", not with BPs. If it was running on 'high', eventually (even with air space) the cage floor above it could get too hot. They have built-in
"hi-lo-medium" controls usually, but that's for humans who can feel & make adjustments...the instructions say to monitor them closely for patients who may be un-
conscious or otherwise unable to control it themselves. The one I have feels very hot & I'm about 98.6*, so I'm sure it's goes WAY over that.

The counterfeit issue is why I don't buy reptile supplies off Amazon. Had a bad experience with a dog training collar.

The on/off issue may be getting to a place where I can understand the problem. The instrument read-out may not be recording what is going on, if the t-stat lets things get too hot before turning off...not sure. Anyway, there is theory, and then there is the real world. Theory is only as good as it matches the reality. Perhaps the air space works as a buffer, dissipating dangerous spikes, if in fact, we are not getting the correct information from our equipment. Again, not sure..BF suggested I contact the mfr.

Are our snakes suffering for this?
Makes me want to scrap all the heat mats, and go with overhead CHE's!

You see the space I have between the blue heating pad and the tub? Works great!
I've been using this for my corn snake. I have her in a tub right now but I will be moving her to an aquarium soon and I will do the same thing. But with an aquarium I will not have such a large gap between tank and heating padhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6774fd1c5a.jpg

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I got a total of 5 cages. I use RHPs in all the cages instead of CHEs, but the result is the same. Overhead heat. There is one that also has an uth. I agree about buying a uth on Amazon, a few years back over about an 8 month period, I bought 2 zoomed uth. The 1st did not work at all out of the package. The 2nd would only get to about 82 degrees on the pad.