Regarding spiders

Curious about what people are thinking or doing given the current climate around spiders. Imo stigma towards them is exaggerated to the nth degree and based on few cases of bad wobble which is probably due to bad husbandry. I'm not so interested in the debate given that I have and have seen healthy spiders living fine lives. So my question is: how do you see the market value of spiders being affected in the next few years and what do you think breeders are going to do about it?
I think given the laws that have been put in place in the UK and the tendency for the rest of the world to follow with Western ideas and tendencies it's pretty likely that soon we'll be seeing spiders band from reptile expos in the US but I'm not an expert so I'm wondering what you guys think.

I'm hoping the whole controversy just blows over. That would be best for the hobby and all involved, snakes included and principally of course.

I have a bumblebee that I’ve had for years. He doesn’t display a wobble 99% of the time. I’ve only seen him act a little differently when he missed a strike. Also out of all the years I’ve had him he’s missed a strike maybe twice. Imo the hate is overly exaggerated.


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That would be ideal but I don't see it going that way. spider is one of my favorite morphs and the things that can be done with all the various bees are very interesting to me. I really hope it blows over but given people's misinformation and dramatization of the facts it's hurting the market for them.

IMO it won't blow but Spiders aren't going anywhere. you cannot make an example out of Spiders w/o other morphs w/ deformities or even other species. they're popular, beautiful, there's a market and there's no issue w/ most.

My opinion is breeding any animal just for how looks with known defects should be stopped and the entire line culled.


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Originally Posted by Jamiekerk

My opinion is breeding any animal just for how looks with known defects should be stopped and the entire line culled.


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Well that’d be a LOT of animals and not only reptiles. Also, you can get genetic defects in any breeding. There’s a lot that can go wrong, biology can be messy. I’m sure other people on here that actually own spider morphs can attest that their animals are perfectly healthy. All these YouTube personas use animals with exaggerated issues in order to get clicks and fall in line. If your viewpoint differs from the current accepted one, even if the accepted one is misinformed, you’re persecuted. It’s purely in the interest of their channel that they jump on the bandwagon. I’d recommend Clint’s Reptiles video on spiders. It’s a little better with actually explaining what’s going on.


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Originally Posted by MarkL1561

Well that’d be a LOT of animals and not only reptiles. Also, you can get genetic defects in any breeding. There’s a lot that can go wrong, biology can be messy. I’m sure other people on here that actually own spider morphs can attest that their animals are perfectly healthy. All these YouTube personas use animals with exaggerated issues in order to get clicks and fall in line. If your viewpoint differs from the current accepted one, even if the accepted one is misinformed, you’re persecuted. It’s purely in the interest of their channel that they jump on the bandwagon. I’d recommend Clint’s Reptiles video on spiders. It’s a little better with actually explaining what’s going on.


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ITA with this. I have wanted something with spider in it for a long time. I did a LOT of research on spiders and spider wobble before deciding to purchase one. I think a LOT of what is going on now is essentially click bait. Genetics in any species is not as cut and dried as some would have us think. Gene expression is complex, and influenced by so many factors. There are several morphs of ball pythons that can and do carry less desirable genetic traits with their color expression, but that is true of any species we choose to selectively breed. Large breed dogs often have hip issues. Certain breed of horses are more prone to colic. The list goes on.

I have watched many hours of footage on spiders, and read what a lot of experienced breeders have to say. From what I have seen, in the vast majority of cases the wobble doesn't interfere with quality of life, so I don't see it as an issue. There are rare cases where it does, but how many other pairing throw babies that have to be euthanized for some kind of birth defect, even when it isn't a "risky" gene? Do spiders really throw that many more? From what I have seen I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by reptilemom25

ITA with this. I have wanted something with spider in it for a long time. I did a LOT of research on spiders and spider wobble before deciding to purchase one. I think a LOT of what is going on now is essentially click bait. Genetics in any species is not as cut and dried as some would have us think. Gene expression is complex, and influenced by so many factors. There are several morphs of ball pythons that can and do carry less desirable genetic traits with their color expression, but that is true of any species we choose to selectively breed. Large breed dogs often have hip issues. Certain breed of horses are more prone to colic. The list goes on.

I have watched many hours of footage on spiders, and read what a lot of experienced breeders have to say. From what I have seen, in the vast majority of cases the wobble doesn't interfere with quality of life, so I don't see it as an issue. There are rare cases where it does, but how many other pairing throw babies that have to be euthanized for some kind of birth defect, even when it isn't a "risky" gene? Do spiders really throw that many more? From what I have seen I don't think so.

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Yeah I just have a hard time believing all the negative press when I’ve had my bumblebee for years with pretty much no symptoms. He has only displayed a slight wobble when he misses a strike which has only happened maybe twice the entire time I’ve had him. He’s perfectly happy and healthy so from my personal experience I don’t see a major issue. I think the problem is worse with snakes under bad husbandry and/or poor breeding practices. Any snake can come out with severe genetic defects and breeders should definitely refrain from breeding those individuals. I’m confident that through selective breeding we can minimize issues. If people don’t want to buy spiders that’s perfectly fine but don’t go around saying they should be killed Hitler style. Also, it’d be nice if the community would stop attacking owners and breeders of spiders like they’re the antichrist or something.


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While I agree with the sentiment you put forth and own a stinger bee myself, I'm more curious about the future of the market. Misguided or not. It seems to me that as a large business owner selling balls it would be wise to cut out the only gene that people widely know as controversial. If only because with or without it you'll still sell bananas, lessers, pastels, pins, etc.. But with it you'll have idiots harping at you and possibly convincing people you breed defective animals out of cruel indifference.
This might be a worst case scenario point of view but I just want to frame the post around this. I'm curious about the future of the gene and those who DO chose to breed them. Or if there is one.
I mean to say that I want info and not the classical spider ethics debate. We're getting lost in the sauce here, lol.

Nothing has changed... spiders have been the same since they came out in the 90s, the only thing that has changed is the creation of social media and an insatiable thirst for drama. Serious breeders won't care about this and most keepers who know better won't either. The only ones to make a big deal out of are the YouTube sheeple who feel it's the trendy thing to do.

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it's pretty likely that soon we'll be seeing spiders band from reptile expos in the US but I'm not an expert so I'm wondering what you guys think.

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And who would decide that or push that? Animal activists with some more fake science that have tried to ban reptile ownership in general for years?

Not gonna happen the reptile industries have been fighting those people for YEARS and they have not won, they could not care less about banning 1 mutation of 1 species it's all or nothing for them so I pretty sure that Spiders are safe.

Or would show promoters try to ban them? Well good luck with that any that, they would loose vendors and visitors and someone would come along and do a show where spiders are allowed because there is competition and choices in shows in the US unlike in the UK where there are a limited amount of shows.

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Originally Posted by E-squirrel

Curious about what people are thinking or doing given the current climate around spiders. Imo stigma towards them is exaggerated to the nth degree and based on few cases of bad wobble which is probably due to bad husbandry. I'm not so interested in the debate given that I have and have seen healthy spiders living fine lives. So my question is: how do you see the market value of spiders being affected in the next few years and what do you think breeders are going to do about it?
I think given the laws that have been put in place in the UK and the tendency for the rest of the world to follow with Western ideas and tendencies it's pretty likely that soon we'll be seeing spiders band from reptile expos in the US but I'm not an expert so I'm wondering what you guys think.

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There are no laws - just one reptile/amphibian/animal group ( the IHS ) who decided they didn't want to have any sold at their own expos. You can still buy/trade/sell them at all the other reptile expos. I disagree with their chosen stance even though I do not own any spiders or spider combos.


dr del

A few cases due to bad husbandry? Ouch. I think the bad cases are due more to breeders who care more about money than animals. In my experience the higher end better quality breeders always have spiders with less wobble than your neighborhood breeder. My spider is a rescue. Her wobble isn’t terrible but her balance is absolutely horrific. Her husbandry is fine, by the way. I think there’s absolutely more than a few bad cases of wobble and blaming husbandry doesn’t make much sense. I’m sure poor husbandry could agitate a wobble but the wobble has to be there to begin with.

Also, there are no laws banning spiders. IHS banned the sale of spiders at their shows. That’s it.


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Originally Posted by Lusiphera

A few cases due to bad husbandry? Ouch. I think the bad cases are due more to breeders who care more about money than animals. In my experience the higher end better quality breeders always have spiders with less wobble than your neighborhood breeder. My spider is a rescue. Her wobble isn’t terrible but her balance is absolutely horrific. Her husbandry is fine, by the way. I think there’s absolutely more than a few bad cases of wobble and blaming husbandry doesn’t make much sense. I’m sure poor husbandry could agitate a wobble but the wobble has to be there to begin with.

Also, there are no laws banning spiders. IHS banned the sale of spiders at their shows. That’s it.


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Honestly, I think there is a strong case for husbandry being a large contributing factor to the severity of the wobble, particularly husbandry in a young, developing snake. Your husbandry for your rescue may be spot on, but there is a reason it needed to be rescued in the first place. I don't like anecdotal evidence as an argument, but many of the severe wobbles I see shown on the channels of those pushing the ban are rescues. Who knows what conditions they were kept in as they were growing and developing. It's simply common sense that the conditions under which a growing and developing animal are kept have an impact on the outcome of that growth and development, particularly in the case of one with this kind of neurological condition. Environment, particularly that one you grew up in, can absolutely effect the expression of such a condition. We know that to be true in humans.

I do think that there is a possibility that breeding has something to do with it, but most of the knowledgeable breeders who have been breeding spiders for a long time say that it is definitely hard to predict severity of wobble, a parent with an almost nonexistent wobble will produce offspring with a severe one and ivce versa. I think the difference is that responsible breeders will not offer an animal with a wobble that severe for sale.

The reality of the wobble is if it is a spider it wobbles. It is most apparent when the animal is under stress. The more excited or agitated an animal gets, the more it wobbles. I can get any spider to display a bad wobble and get it to stop. Comfortable animals rarely display anything noticeable other than to people who know what to look for.

Over here in the UK the spider thing has been blown waaaaay out of proportion! IHS have banned from being sold at shows, you get attacked for showing off a spider on reddit, it's just stupid.

I have a 9 year old female spider, who is gorgeous, weighs about 2.4kg and slams food like a freight train. She's loving life and is a proven breeder.

I also have a calibee cb18 male called Regulus, he was sold to me as having a very slight wobble but again, slams food like a freight train, is very healthy and is very happy. I can't wait to pair him with my Fire Yellowbelly female when they are both ready.

I did my research on the gene before buying them, Ive watched videos, asked questions to breeders and even went to the originator of the gene for research too.

In the UK, people are very quick to attack those that keep the spider gene without considering other morphs that can have more serious issues, i.e Super Black Pastel, Champagne etc.

I love and adore my snakes, I am a firm believer in giving your animals the best possible care you can and I like to think I am doing that with mine.

I love the Spider gene and will defend it to the hilt and I cant wait to start the breeding projects next year or the year after (depending on when they're ready) :)

I have noticed a drop in prices in BPs with the spider genes here as of late.