Question for those who you barren tubs

Hello all,
A) I have a lot of respect for this forum as many members on here have a wealth of knowledge and B) I am curious to know what yall think about this topic.
Many people on this forum promote that snakes operate purely off of instincts and that things like enrichment are not necessary. I had stumbled across an interesting website last night and thought I would share and get feedback from the forum. I do not keep my snake in a tub (nothing inherently wrong with them) nor do I keep my snake in a plain barren environment and I feel that enrichment is beneficial to animals. What are your guys' opinions on the matter?

http://rainbowsnakes.tumblr.com/post...tiles-what-why

Here is a quote at the end that sums it up pretty well

Small, sterile enclosures are only appropriate for temporary quarantine housing, not for the long term.

While reptiles are not the same as mammals, and should not be held to the same standards, they are not as robotic and behaviorally rigid as some people seem to think. They can not thrive kept in barren enclosures without enrichment and stimulation…. Science has caught up with that, the pet trade (where reptiles are concerned) has not… We owe these animals a good quality of life so they can thrive and not merely survive…

It goes on to provide examples and studies of the benefits of enrichment with reptiles.. I know there is a popular belief that racks are the optimum way to house snakes (Im not disagreeing with that) but I don't know if a bare tub with nothing other than paper towels and a water bowl is ideal.

I'm hoping I don't get flamed on this post.. I think providing the best possible lives for these animals is priority number 1 and I just question if a bare rack with no enrichment at all is the best we can do.

I respect your opinion: But, grouping all reptiles together is a flawed thesis from the start.

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

I respect your opinion: But, grouping all reptiles together is a flawed thesis from the start.

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Throughout the site there are studies on specific species.. here is one on rat snakes...

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...7604jaws0902_1

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

I respect your opinion: But, grouping all reptiles together is a flawed thesis from the start.

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And another..

https://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_gradthes/1821/

Snakes have the ability of spatial learning..

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...0334729890971X

Also, these are the opinions (backed by scientific studies) of an Animal science lecture and animal welfare scientist who is awaiting their PHD who I just happen to agree with. There are many specific studies on specific reptiles if you'd have taken the time to read through the link before posting..

I keep 5 of my 6 BPs in a rack. The 6th is in a 40 gallon tank with natural decorations. That being said, I was never crazy about the rack idea. Unfortunately it is a necessity for those of us without enough room for the collection we have. I would certainly move them to tanks if I could.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

I keep 5 of my 6 BPs in a rack. The 6th is in a 40 gallon tank with natural decorations. That being said, I was never crazy about the rack idea. Unfortunately it is a necessity for those of us without enough room for the collection we have. I would certainly move them to tanks if I could.


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I dont think the problem is racks.. If the animal has plenty of space within the tub, and enrichment in the tub.. Hides, coverage, substrate etc I see them on par with each other. I think the problem lays with plain tubs with just a water dish.. I know racks are the only option for certain individuals..

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

I dont think the problem is racks.. If the animal has plenty of space within the tub, and enrichment in the tub.. Hides, coverage, substrate etc I see them on par with each other. I think the problem lays with plain tubs with just a water dish.. I know racks are the only option for certain individuals..

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I have two hides in each of my tubs.


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I don't have a bone in this potential debate whatsoever, but I was watching a video the other day that contrasted bare bones tubs with decorated ones (let's just say BHB did not come out looking so great). Snake Discovery on YouTube has some awesome examples of how to make tubs and/or rack systems work in ways that are more enriching for snakes. It seems like it's possible to have the best of both worlds if you need the space saving a rack offers but still want some enrichment.

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Originally Posted by WhompingWillow

I don't have a bone in this potential debate whatsoever, but I was watching a video the other day that contrasted bare bones tubs with decorated ones (let's just say BHB did not come out looking so great). Snake Discovery on YouTube has some awesome examples of how to make tubs and/or rack systems work in ways that are more enriching for snakes. It seems like it's possible to have the best of both worlds if you need the space saving a rack offers but still want some enrichment.

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Yes! I really enjoy snakediscoveries tub set ups. I think they do provide more enrichment for the animals and it cant do anything but help the animals. I just fear that reptiles get labeled as "simple" and are given the cheapest most convenient set up for the keepers without the animals best interest in mind. That website and those studies were the most thorough i've seen on the subject.

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Originally Posted by WhompingWillow

I don't have a bone in this potential debate whatsoever, but I was watching a video the other day that contrasted bare bones tubs with decorated ones (let's just say BHB did not come out looking so great). Snake Discovery on YouTube has some awesome examples of how to make tubs and/or rack systems work in ways that are more enriching for snakes. It seems like it's possible to have the best of both worlds if you need the space saving a rack offers but still want some enrichment.

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Do you happen to have a link to the video? This topic of reptile welfare is extremely interesting to me and its something I am quite passionate about. It is funny considering I am an extremely green keeper.

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

There are many specific studies on specific reptiles if you'd have taken the time to read through the link before posting..

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Sorry, seem to have hit a nerve. :)

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

Sorry, seem to have hit a nerve. :)

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No need to apologize. Just want to make sure you have the correct information to make an educated decision ;)

I always find it funny how someone will tell you how you should keep your snakes because their way is best (not talking about animals needing troubleshooting because of specific issues)

There are many ways to skin a cat and people needs to be more open minded, yet to some keeping a snake in a tub is borderline animal cruelty and the animal is barely surviving :rolleyes:

I have been keeping Ball Pythons in tubs, just a tub and a bowl of water for over a decade they don't just survive they thrive and they do as well as animals I have previously kept in cages or tanks.

Why?

Their needs are met and they live in a stress free environment, as a result I never had an animal with a RI, immune system issue, scale rot etc.

They eat, they breed, they spend 80% of their time hiding as they should do you think they would do more if they had an enriched environment? If so what would they do?

The issue with the first study is that it goes beyond the scope of snakes it talks about large lizard as well as tortoises which in this case is a whole other story., but this thresd is about Ball Pythons in tubs since this is where it was posted.

Bottom line people should not worry so much how others keep their animals so long the animals are healthy and thriving, people should keep their animals the way they are without being judge especially by people that have likely little to no experience keeping animals in setups they despise so much.

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

... more enrichment for the animals and it cant do anything but help the animals. I just fear that reptiles get labeled as "simple" and are given the cheapest most convenient set up for the keepers without the animals best interest in mind...

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That's the problem...if you've decided that reptiles are "simple" & don't need enrichment to thrive, that's what you'll tend to "find" & justify. I'm totally with you on
this...snakes did not evolve in tubs, & in the wild they learn their way around to survive. How sad that so many don't think they might need more, but instead are
willing to just error on the side of their own convenience. How mind-numbing it must be to exist for years in a bare tub...and IMO, if that's all you have enough space
for, please don't get the pet. Just like other guidelines like having enough money to afford food & proper medical care when needed...if you don't have it, wait until
you do. Like sticking Betta "fighting fish" in a tiny bowl for life...just because they don't immediately die doesn't make it right. I wish empathy was a prerequisite. :(

To me, most of the fun of keeping snakes is not what fancy color they are & what can I breed them with to make "such & such",
but seeing them thrive in a realistic environment and seeing their behavior when challenged. I actually constructed maze-type hides
for a couple of my snakes when they arrived as hatchlings, and watching them explore & try each and every way in and out was as
much fun for me as it appeared to be for them. They also settled in quickly with regard to feeding...it was a sad day when they out-
grew them, but on to bigger "toys". ;)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I always find it funny how someone will tell you how you should keep your snakes because their way is best (not talking about animals needing troubleshooting because of specific issues)

There are many ways to skin a cat and people needs to be more open minded, yet to some keeping a snake in a tub is borderline animal cruelty and the animal is barely surviving :rolleyes:

I have been keeping Ball Pythons in tubs, just a tub and a bowl of water for over a decade they don't just survive they thrive and they do as well as animals I have previously kept in cages or tanks.

Why?

Their needs are met and they live in a stress free environment, as a result I never had an animal with a RI, immune system issue, scale rot etc.

They eat, they breed, they spend 80% of their time hiding as they should do you think they would do more if they had an enriched environment? If so what would they do?

The issue with the first study is that it goes beyond the scope of snakes it talks about large lizard as well as tortoises which in this case is a whole other story., but this thresd is about Ball Pythons in tubs since this is where it was posted.

Bottom line people should not worry so much how others keep their animals so long the animals are healthy and thriving, people should keep their animals the way they are without being judge especially by people that have likely little to no experience keeping animals in setups they despise so much.

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Okay. Me asking others for their opinions and sharing mine is not judging anyone. Just because something is the way it is and works, doesn't make it ideal or optimum. I believe the purpose of enrichment is giving the animal choice. Again, the information that I provided suggests that an animal eating, shedding, and breeding is not thriving but surviving. I post some information that was put together by an animal welfare scientist with numerous studies and it gets shot down (possibly without even reading very much of it) because breeders have been successful. I bring up a conversation starter to get other peoples OPINIONS. Thank you for sharing yours.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That's the problem...if you've decided that reptiles are "simple" & don't need enrichment to thrive, that's what you'll tend to "find" & justify. I'm totally with you on
this...snakes did not evolve in tubs, & in the wild they learn their way around to survive. How sad that so many don't think they might need more, but instead are
willing to just error on the side of their own convenience. How mind-numbing it must be to exist for years in a bare tub...and IMO, if that's all you have enough space
for, please don't get the pet. Just like other guidelines like having enough money to afford food & proper medical care when needed...if you don't have it, wait until
you do. Like sticking Betta "fighting fish" in a tiny bowl for life...just because they don't immediately die doesn't make it right. I wish empathy was a prerequisite. :(

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Completely agree. And again, I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with tubs.. But I do think they should be of adequate size and have more than a water dish.

Tbh, I was nervous about making this post but found the information I was reading interesting and thought it was pretty cool to see actual studies that shows the benefits of enrichment, in snakes, as well as other reptiles.

My hope is we can get some different perspectives on this from people with different points of view. Id like this to be civil. Im not trying to ruffle feathers.

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

Completely agree. And again, I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with tubs.. But I do think they should be of adequate size and have more than a water dish.

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I totally agree :)

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...pslwkdrqxp.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

I totally agree :)

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...pslwkdrqxp.jpg

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If you don't agree with me (and thats completely fine), id love to hear your opinions on the matter instead of just mocking the topic. Also, I hope thats not your idea of an adequate sized tub :o)

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

If you don't agree with me (and thats completely fine), id love to hear your opinions on the matter instead of just mocking the topic. Also, I hope thats not your idea of an adequate sized tub :o)

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I was demonstrating your point regarding enclosures that are too small and poorly decorated. It is laughable what some people consider appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

I was demonstrating your point regarding enclosures that are too small and poorly decorated. It is laughable what some people consider appropriate.

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Okay, you scared me for a second.. Lol

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

Okay. Me asking others for their opinions and sharing mine is not judging anyone. Just because something is the way it is and works, doesn't make it ideal or optimum. I believe the purpose of enrichment is giving the animal choice. Again, the information that I provided suggests that an animal eating, shedding, and breeding is not thriving but surviving. I post some information that was put together by an animal welfare scientist with numerous studies and it gets shot down (possibly without even reading very much of it) because breeders have been successful. I bring up a conversation starter to get other peoples OPINIONS. Thank you for sharing yours.

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I did not say you were the article is, and it starts by telling people what they should do and I am a firm believer that if it's not broken don't fix it, in other words don't change things because someone tells you to regardless of how you keep your snakes so long it works, in this articles it implies that you should provide enrichment and failure to do so means the animal "just survives" and does not thrive, further in the article it even mentions the impact of enrichment on health and stress, again enriched environment vs bare tub and water bowl when keeping Ball Pythons (again not debating other reptiles where the article actually make good pointa) is all the same one is not superior to the other and both can result in the same benefits or issues.

So maybe, this post would have been more appropriate under the general tab.. because to your point the studies done are on other snakes as well as other reptiles. I included it under the BP section because that is where you see a lot of the very small tubs with no additions. Also, I would like to reiterate you mentioned tubs and animal cruelty... Myself as well as the source mentioned tubs being great for keeping reptiles. Tubs allow for a very stable condition..

Can I ask you an honest question? Would you keep your animal in the same exact set up if you only had 1 and did not breed? Or would you try and provide more for your 1 reptile? Even though they may not require more to eat shed poop and breed?

Also, I believe the link is just talking about the benefits of environmental enrichment and it mentions that adequate enclosure size is a part of it. Speaking of your "not broke don't fix".. Slavery and a ton of extremely unethical things existed for a very long time.. and none of that would have been fixed unless people started talking about it.. Now i'm NOT equating keeping reptiles in bare enclosures to slavery.. Just saying that the status quo isn't always ethically right.

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

Now i'm NOT equating keeping reptiles in bare enclosures to slavery.. Just saying that the status quo isn't always ethically right.

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No mention of rodents (mice/rats) in empty tubs? Next thread maybe? ;)

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

No mention of rodents (mice/rats) in empty tubs? Next thread maybe? ;)

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You going to add anything useful? Lol

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

You going to add anything useful? Lol

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Just making a suggestion. Rats are known for their intelligence and emotions yet they are bred in empty bins. Thought you might want to make another thread on the topic...

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

Just making a suggestion. Rats are known for their intelligence and emotions yet they are bred in empty bins. Thought you might want to make another thread on the topic...

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Looks like you got that one covered. Hurry and publish it, i'll meet you there.

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Can I ask you an honest question? Would you keep your animal in the same exact set up if you only had 1 and did not breed? Or would you try and provide more for your 1 reptile? Even though they may not more to eat shed poop and breed?

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Yes been there done that already, while I have kept BP for 13 years for breeding purposes I have 20+ years experience keeping reptiles (back than that was one or two at the time), I used to rescue iguanas (which are likely the most poorly kept reptile in the industry), so I am familiar with enrichment, tub, bioactive setup,large enclosure etc, it agsin all depends on the species you keep, lizards are very intelligent and greatly benefit from enrichment and bioactive/natural and large setup well at least large enough to accommodate their size.

In about 10 to 15 years when I will retire from breeding the snakes I will keep (handful of BP, and a handful of misc snake species) will remain in tubs it has work for 13 years and will still work than, again the key is that the needs of the species are met.

The geckos I keep will remain in naturalistic environment and I believe both snakes and geckos will have the same quality of life.

In many species , yes, they need space to explore, or maybe even socialize.
Ball pythons however are unique in that they love to hide in a dark, secure place 98% of the time.
They DO like to explore, and I think it’s healthy for them to get out and slither around sometimes, but let’s face reality, even when you take them out, what do they do? THEY GO HIDE!!! [emoji38]
Hence, racks are great. Anything else is basically unnecessary as they will hide all day anyway.
There is nothing wrong with a giant bioactive enclosure, but they will mostly just stay in their hides as if they were in a rack.

Now with OTHER reptiles, then this need for enrichment may apply, but I don’t know because I only keep Royals.


https://www.morphmarket.com/stores/kaos-balls/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

I dont think the problem is racks.. If the animal has plenty of space within the tub, and enrichment in the tub.. Hides, coverage, substrate etc I see them on par with each other. I think the problem lays with plain tubs with just a water dish.. I know racks are the only option for certain individuals..

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

Okay. Me asking others for their opinions and sharing mine is not judging anyone. Just because something is the way it is and works, doesn't make it ideal or optimum. I believe the purpose of enrichment is giving the animal choice. Again, the information that I provided suggests that an animal eating, shedding, and breeding is not thriving but surviving. I post some information that was put together by an animal welfare scientist with numerous studies and it gets shot down (possibly without even reading very much of it) because breeders have been successful. I bring up a conversation starter to get other peoples OPINIONS. Thank you for sharing yours.

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Jmarshall, congratulations to you! You are absolutely correct about eating/shedding/breeding is not thriving. Those are basic life functions and anything kept at the minimal standards will attempt to perform those basic life functions.

I started keeping reptiles in the '70's and it has been my experience that some people have more than a basic concern for reptiles as pets and some have an ability to see the fine details. The fine details are visible to those that look...those fine details are observing the habits of captive reptiles and understanding what is being observed. There is a hellavalot more to a critter performing basic life functions and a critter that is secure in its environment.

Observing how a boa (or other snake rests) is very telling. Hugging the water bowl, tightly coiled in the corner, head hiding between coils...these are not the signs of a secure critter and this behavior is most often seen on slick substrates.

Your critters have the answers...keep your mind open and observe.

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

In many species , yes, they need space to explore, or maybe even socialize.
Ball pythons however are unique in that they love to hide in a dark, secure place 98% of the time.
They DO like to explore, and I think it’s healthy for them to get out and slither around sometimes, but let’s face reality, even when you take them out, what do they do? THEY GO HIDE!!! [emoji38]
Hence, racks are great. Anything else is basically unnecessary as they will hide all day anyway.
There is nothing wrong with a giant bioactive enclosure, but they will mostly just stay in their hides as if they were in a rack.

Now with OTHER reptiles, then this need for enrichment may apply, but I don’t know because I only keep Royals.


https://www.morphmarket.com/stores/kaos-balls/

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I guess I really like the idea of the animal having the CHOICE to explore, hunt or hide. Even if it’s only 2% of the time. Lol


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To me it's not much different than the way preschool functions for little kids: it offers exposure to new things, and it's those new things that make more brain
connections. While we assume reptile brains are vastly different from ours, I still think they operate along the same lines...the more varied their exposure, the
better the brain turns out, and the more resilient the owner. Also, snakes gain some muscle strength & coordination by crawling over things (or climbing, depend-
ing on the species)...a snake that just lays around on a flat smooth surface cannot possibly have the same physicality as one with options to explore, and I stronglysuspect their brain works better as a result.

Snakes that are suddenly taken out & go hide have not yet learned from the beginning that they can do this & survive...so of course they try to hide immediately.
That doesn't mean you should just quit trying to enrich their experiences, IMO. That's like handing a 4 year old a book, & because they can't read it, you take it
away & offer no further education...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

To me it's not much different than the way preschool functions for little kids: it offers exposure to new things, and it's those new things that make more brain
connections. While we assume reptile brains are vastly different from ours, I still think they operate along the same lines...

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I had posted an interesting article about this exact thing. There is research that shows that a reptiles brain is not as different from our own than we once thought.

https://massivesci.com/articles/liza...e-brain-human/

This kind of stuff is super interesting to me because ever since I joined the forum almost a year ago, I was told they are simple, instinctual, not complex animals. It is interesting to read stuff stating the contrary. I think the jury is still out on a lot of the information and we still have so, so much to learn. And my huge AP10 for my single male BP may be overkill.. But I love him and want to provide the best that I possibly can for him.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Yes been there done that already, while I have kept BP for 13 years for breeding purposes I have 20+ years experience keeping reptiles (back than that was one or two at the time), I used to rescue iguanas (which are likely the most poorly kept reptile in the industry), so I am familiar with enrichment, tub, bioactive setup,large enclosure etc, it agsin all depends on the species you keep, lizards are very intelligent and greatly benefit from enrichment and bioactive/natural and large setup well at least large enough to accommodate their size.

In about 10 to 15 years when I will retire from breeding the snakes I will keep (handful of BP, and a handful of misc snake species) will remain in tubs it has work for 13 years and will still work than, again the key is that the needs of the species are met.

The geckos I keep will remain in naturalistic environment and I believe both snakes and geckos will have the same quality of life.

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Okay, I can respect that 100%. It sounds like you whole heartedly believe you are providing the best care possible for your animals and thats all that matters. I have a hunch that some breeders may do better if their collection was smaller, which is very sad imo.

Also, I hope you're not taking my conversation and replies as confrontation; that is not my intent at all. I appreciate you sharing your opinion on the matter. I see a lot of your posts and its very obvious you have a ton of experience.

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

I had posted an interesting article about this exact thing. There is research that shows that a reptiles brain is not as different from our own than we once thought.

https://massivesci.com/articles/liza...e-brain-human/

This kind of stuff is super interesting to me because ever since I joined the forum almost a year ago, I was told they are simple, instinctual, not complex animals. It is interesting to read stuff stating the contrary. I think the jury is still out on a lot of the information and we still have so, so much to learn. And my huge AP10 for my single male BP may be overkill.. But I love him and want to provide the best that I possibly can for him.

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That's a good article, thanks for sharing. But I've never needed that to convince me of what I see when I interact with my snakes. If they are as 'dumb' as many believe,
wouldn't I have to re-establish connections with them when I don't handle or interact with them for a while? But I don't...they clearly retain the fact that they know and
accept me as "safe". And why not? In the wild we know they learn their way around & must retain that knowledge to survive (returning to safe shelters from predators
& adverse weather). What's more, they are said to be related to birds way back on the evolutionary 'tree', and some birds are quite intelligent. The big difference is that
birds have features that we can better relate to & use for training...they can hear us, and make sounds in response.

Sadly, we humans have several road-blocks when it comes to recognizing intelligence in so-called lower life forms: if we acknowledge their intelligence, it gnaws on our
conscience when we want to exploit them or exterminate them. It doesn't fit into our own primitive fears either, & we prefer to think of ourselves as SO superior to the
animals around us, that our poor little egos get bruised...:rolleyes:

All I know is that I believe in treating the snakes I care for as I'd want to be treated in their place...and to give them the benefit of the doubt about what they know or
understand. What I get back in return, I cannot always express here. Proof is nice, but I haven't spent all these years interacting with snakes with a film crew on hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That doesn't mean you should just quit trying to enrich their experiences, IMO. That's like handing a 4 year old a book, & because they can't read it, you take it
away & offer no further education...:rolleyes:

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Horrible comparison, one is nothing at all like the other.


https://www.morphmarket.com/stores/kaos-balls/

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

Horrible comparison, one is nothing at all like the other...

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Is it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANvYB93u2g :D

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

Do you happen to have a link to the video? This topic of reptile welfare is extremely interesting to me and its something I am quite passionate about. It is funny considering I am an extremely green keeper.

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This video does a great job of going over the pros and cons of each. https://youtu.be/hM15VUjqOWE

If you want examples of what I would say not to do with racks/tubs, you can pretty much watch any Brian Barczyk video.

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Originally Posted by WhompingWillow

This video does a great job of going over the pros and cons of each. https://youtu.be/hM15VUjqOWE

If you want examples of what I would say not to do with racks/tubs, you can pretty much watch any Brian Barczyk video.

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I agree. I love snake discovery and the way she sets up her tubs.

Several months ago, I watched a long documentary about the octopus. They don't even really have a central brain - yet they are scary smart. Definitely apples and oranges, and yet...we don't know what we don't know.

I have noticed that the more I pause and pay attention, the more my animals show me.

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

Me asking others for their opinions and sharing mine is not judging anyone.

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If you open a thread with a quote about how small, sterile encloures are only fit for temporary housing and not for the long term then you should expect some people to be upset. You say that you're not judging anyone, but it sounds like you are very much insinuating that anyone who keeps their snakes in a way you disapprove of is abusing their animals.

While the article states multiple times that "reptiles are not the same as mammals" it says nothing about how reptiles are different from one another. Snakes are very different from animals with legs, who need more space to get proper excersize. This includes lizards, frogs, tortoises, and other legged reptiles. The article you linked to doesn't even have a reference that studies ball pythons specifically, just rat snakes. Meanwhile it cites multipe articles on mice and rats... even though the article is primarily about reptiles.

I agree with most of the revommendations the article makes. I would never think of keeping a rhino iguana or a large water monitor in a rack, but it does state that you have to be aware of species specific needs and snakes are a different story.

I've used tanks, terraruims, and racks for my snakes. Some have a preference, others don't. Of the five species I keep, only ball pythons seem to have a preference. The rest of the snakes do well in either type of enclosure. Some of the ball pythons do too. It really comes down to personality. However, many of them just don't like being in a wide open enclosure. This article claims that bigger is better. I respectfully disagree. Keeping the needs of the snake met is better.

No article or scientific study is going to convince me to move one of my female ball pythons to a large terrarium if I know doing so will make her feel insecure enough to stop eating. I know my snakes and their behavior. I know when they are scared and stressed out. I will not keep them that way. A great many of them prefer the small, sterile enclosures that you may consider inadequate for permanent housing. Should I just drop them in a larger enclosure and watch them suffer?

I'm happy to keep snakes in tanks and terrariums when I know they do well in them, but I don't think large and well decorated enclosures are universally better. Enrichment is fine for snakes that can handle it, but ball pythons are a more reclusive species and not all of them are up for that. The health of my snakes comes before what I think is pretty or "natural". Predators, injury, and disease are all natural too. I'm not going to expose my snakes to any of that.

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Originally Posted by the_rotten1

...I don't think large and well decorated enclosures are universally better. ...

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I couldn't agree more and I'm 100% confident that a newspaper lined tote with a water bowl is also less than ideal.

It sounds like you put effort into observations...kudos to you and your critters.

While I agree that this conversation is a valid one that should continue, I have reservations about the OP's approach and methodology. This is way too large of a conversation to be had without qualifiers in place, such as species. The studies should pertain to the species at hand. The counter points should be considered and spoken to. Admission of areas of weakness in existing bodies of research should be brought to light and examined, such as how we interpret reptile behavior. Having a bias and admiting it is helpful so that others may interpret what you are bringing to the table through a more complete lens.

I am concerned that although you may have wanted to use studies and Youtube videos to propose a shift in animal husbandry to the masses, those that may well benefit from your points may shy away from this discussion based on your delivery and incorrect use of evidence. For what it is worth, scientific studies make up a vast body of information, and if you look hard enough (and it exists, etc.) you can hand-pick and back up a point most points, but doing so poses a real risk to the communities we aim to serve. Look at American "healthy/unhealthy" food recommendations across time if you need a concrete example of this.

Invite people into a discussion to help build the community (which also allows room for dissent) and please use data correctly by not extropolating beyond obvious limitations. Thank you for considering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the_rotten1

I'm happy to keep snakes in tanks and terrariums when I know they do well in them,,.

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I’m glad you give your snakes the option of living in the biggest enclosure possible, that they feel comfortable in.

And again.. I believe I have stated 4 or 5 times that there is nothing wrong with tubs or racks! Lol. I have a problem when they are much too small for the animal and have no enrichment.. hides, cover, a small branch or whatever else.

I heard the comment “the entire rack acts as a hide”. What about what the snake wants to leave the hide then? It can’t.

I’m my eyes.. having actual substrate, room to move around, things to crawl over, places to actually hide etc.. takes a tiny bit more work, and can be nothing but beneficial to the snake. It is unfortunate when that decision is made for our own convenience.

I simply presented the material to the group, I happen to agree with a lot of it, and noted there are studies of animals (who’s brain are similar and I would presume work in a similar way) that benefit from enrichment in a very serious way.

Take from it what you will.



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I am very new to this forum, so I really do hope I’m not I’m not intruding by posting my opinion on this subject before I even have a ball python, lol.

I moderate a reptile site that has very high standards when it comes to reptile care. Our minimum for snakes is an enclosure no shorter than the length of the snake, so that it is able to stretch out. Enrichment is a very large deal, and small , sterile tubs are only ever used for quarantine. The enclosures seen are often very large, extremely cluttered, and offer the python many places to feel secure.

Members who follow this standard report active ball pythons that climb and explore, and rarely miss a meal. They do more than just “hide, eat, and shed”, and really do appear to thrive in their surroundings.

My personal opinion on this subject is that it is inhumane to put a snake in these conditions. The way I see it, preforming basic functions is not thriving. Curling up in a corner for eternity definitely isn’t. Based on what I have seen from the ball pythons on that site, I strongly believe that they can benefit from the enrichment, and really do survive in their environment.

A tub does not have to be small or barren. Heck, my quarantine enclosure is a basic example of this, https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...38d2007af2.jpgand my post quarantine enclosure is even better one. It’s a 50 gallon tub that I will be putting doors on the front of, and it has probably cost me less than 100$ to set up.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8c0830324f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...778530fdb3.jpg

Lots of people will say it’s fine because the pythons are breeders, or that there’s no way to have a large collection without keeping snakes in small tubs with nothing but a water bowl. But shouldn’t breeding pythons be getting better care than pets because of the stress they have to endure? Should people really be keeping large amounts of snakes if they can only keep each one in tiny tubs with nothing but a bowl of water?

I might be too ambitious, posting this on my second ever thread before I’ve even gotten a snake, but I do love a good debate ;)


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

I’m my eyes.. having actual substrate, room to move around, things to crawl over, places to actually hide etc.. takes a tiny bit more work, and can be nothing but beneficial to the snake.

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You would think so, but it's all a matter of how much room you're talking about. From what I've seen, the amount of space in the enclosure and the openness of it make more of a difference than whether or not there are hides and decorations. I've seen big improvements in some of my ball pythons after going from glass enclosures to a rack with a similar floor size (not much of a difference in other species though), and even a slight improvement going from open racks to ones that have covered sides. The presence or absence of decor doesn't seem to make much of a difference either way, but as far as hides go, some snakes don't use them in a rack. They all use them in a glass tank or terrarium.

So I don't think the tub as a hide thing is wrong. I've seen a lot of my snakes come out of their hides more often and be more active in a rack. It provides them with more cover and I think they come out more because they feel less exposed. Just for reference, my policy is to provide hides as long as my snakes use them. If they don't, then I'll take any unused hides out to give them more space to roam.

If you haven't tried both enclosure types then I don't think you don't have a horse in this race. You have no basis for comparison. It's easy to look at a large, attractive enclosure and make assumptions, but to give your snakes options and observe their behavior takes a bit of work. So I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe there is a one size-fits all approach. Snakes are individuals. They may not think like humans, but they have different personalities and different needs. Some need more security than others.

And just FYI, accusing people of animal abuse isn't going to help your cause. I'm sure you care about your snake, and maybe you really think you're fighting to get them all "better" housing, but attacking the character of everyone who keeps them in a way that you dislike isn't going to get them to listen to you. I can think my way of keeping them is superior to yours without accusing you of abuse. I expect the same in return.

@TechnoCheese
Not matter how kindly you put it, you have never owned a snake and you are judging people who do. Some who have decades of experience with them. What do you suppose that says about your character?

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Originally Posted by the_rotten1

@TechnoCheese
Not matter how kindly you put it, you have never owned a snake and you are judging people who do. Some who have decades of experience with them. What do you suppose that says about your character?

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Very true. I figured if anything, it’ll bump up the thread and cause more discussion, lol



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Hi,

I think a lot of it comes down to consider what the animal involved considers enrichment. There are a lot of different interpretations of what it involves and how the animal regards it.

On the most simplistic level we see a tub with a paper substrate - but to a python that is a hide that they can move around under to any of the available temperature zones without leaving the feeling of security provided by a dark low hide.

But this varies animal by animal - some love to climb when the opportunity is provided ( most of them fall off when they get larger ) but this needn't cause injury or stress if you plan it well.

It's one of those areas where you offer the animal the choices you think it might like and discard those it does not choose to interact with. We cannot ( whatever we hope ) replicate the open African savanah in an enclosed space so we try things to see if they are acceptable to the snake in question.


dr del