Proving a male het

I'm just curious as to ways of proving my male het albino. I bought it at a show for what I thought was good price for a possible het. This little guys parents were both 100% het, and there were albinos in the clutch. I believe this gives me a 66% chance of mine being a het.

What is the most common way for people to prove their hets? I almost wish I would "borrow" (hehe, although not likley) someones het female, or find someone who needs a het male.

I would just prefer not to spend the big money on a het female, especially if mine turns out to be 100% normal.

I currently have a normal female that if he turns out to be normal, I would just breed just for the fun. But if I had a chance for albinos, I'd like to look into it.

Suggestions?

albino het females run $500-600?

I get asked this one all the time via emails and phone calls and I always tell people that the best way to do it if you have more time than money is to breed your possible het male to a normal female and keep all of the female offspring.

If he is a het, they will all be 50% possible hets ... if he's not, they are normals and still worth good money once they are breeding age. (Unfortunately, you won't know for sure until you produce a homozygous offspring or give up trying.)

The next step is of course to raise up the girls that you kept until they are sexually mature (normally 2 - 3 years).

Finally, you breed the girls back to their dad and see what you get. The tricky part is that even if you get all normals, your male could still be a het and you just missed on the odds ... so you might have to go 2 - 3 breeding seasons to try and prove him.

An interesting twist would be while you're raising up the girls that your male produced, buy a 100% het male to breed to them when they are sexually mature. 100% het males are much cheaper than 100% het females and would do 2 things for you .... 1. Mix some new blood into your project and 2. give you guarenteed 50% possible hets in your second breeding in case your original male doesn't prove out.

Alternatively, possible het females are always an option, but that makes things even more complicated .... as in "which one wasn't the het" if no homozygous offspring are produced.

-adam

( now I wait for the post from someone *cough* about "markers" ... :pee: )

Yea, the only bummer part of that is it becomes about a 5 year project.

What are markers?

yea do markers mean anything in your opinion Adam? i know its just an opioion but seeing the sankes you breed i would take your word for it. i think. lol

I'm not a big fan of "markers".

If you breed a het to a normal, markers or not, 1/2 of the babies either could be or could not be hets. That's just the way the genetics game is played. There are no short cuts.

Over the last 10 years, I've heard people claiming that there are markers in just about every simple recessive morph on the market and in those 10 years I've yet to see anyone provide any real evidence that shows they are valid other than "this guy said" or "i heard about xx% proving out" or "i read it on kingsnake so it must be true" .... When I'm presented with real evidence that you can look at a certain trait on a suspected heterozygous animal and know with 100% certainty that it will prove out, then maybe I'll come around. Until that day, my opinion is that markers are just "wishful thinking" for many people that desperately want to get into producing morphs without spending a whole lot of cash as well as a way for the people that are jealous, bitter, and resentful that they can't afford the high end morphs they desire to "bring the market down" by accusing professional breeders of knowingly using markers to deceive the public.

I have no problem with the former ... dreaming big and holding on to the idea of a "marker" in hopes of hitting the jackpot is a good thing as long as you are aware that the "dream" you are holding on to comes with no certainties and is just as likely to not work out as it is to hit big.

As for the latter ... :neener:

For whatever it's worth, I had a friend that was having trouble trying to sell some possible het pied girls because they didn't have the marker ... The father was a 100% het male, the mother was a normal ... He said that everyone asked him about the marker and when he told them that none of the babies had them, they all walked away .... I ended up buying every single one, because in the end ... marker or not ... they are ALL 50% possible hets and as good as gold to me. ;)

-adam

Thanks you for clearing that up for me. in November i will be getting my first BP i would like to get a normal female at a reptile show. from there i would like to get a 100% het pied male and hope to breed it in a few years. i know i cant afford one the normal way so ill have to do it the long way. the information you gave would definitely help when i buy the het pied and not get ripped off. garter snakes growing up was fun so im sure ill enjoy the upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Stings

Thanks you for clearing that up for me. in November i will be getting my first BP i would like to get a normal female at a reptile show. from there i would like to get a 100% het pied male and hope to breed it in a few years. i know i cant afford one the normal way so ill have to do it the long way. the information you gave would definitely help when i buy the het pied and not get ripped off. garter snakes growing up was fun so im sure ill enjoy the upgrade.

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If you buy a 100% het pied from a reputable breeder, there is no way you'll get ripped off ... marker or not. :D

As you move forward in your breeding endeavors, remember ... living creatures are not something you want to do "on the cheap" ... buy from any of the top breeders in the business and you'll do very well! ;)

Good luck!

-adam

Thanks for all the info, and I guess I'll just see what sort of bounces go my way here. Just out of curiousity, what are the "markers" for albino? I understand, they probably dont mean anything, but I'm still curious.

Adam i was looking at the available Snakes you have. do you ever sell your 100% Het males?

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Originally Posted by Stings

Adam i was looking at the available Snakes you have. do you ever sell your 100% Het males?

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Shoot me an email ... For me, the forums are just for fun, not business ... I'd be more than happy to help you offline. ;)

adam@8ballpythons.com

Thanks!

-adam

Griggs, there is very little evidence for a marker with the albino gene. Only the pied seems to be significant if not 100% reliable.

Adam, hopefully you will prove some of those unmarkered 50% het pied girls. Did you ask if any of the males in the clutch had the marker? I've produced clutches where the 50% with the marker fell heavy on the males - sucks.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Griggs, there is very little evidence for a marker with the albino gene.

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Actually, that depends on who you talk to.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Only the pied seems to be significant if not 100% reliable.

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The only thing that makes the pied marker so called "significant" is the fact that it is the one most talked about on the internet ... usually by people that have never seen a pied, het pied, and sometimes even a "marker" in person.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Adam, hopefully you will prove some of those unmarkered 50% het pied girls.

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Yup. I hope to do a lot better than Pete did with the 20 66% het girls he tried to prove this year ... and they all had the marker. ;)

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Did you ask if any of the males in the clutch had the marker? I've produced clutches where the 50% with the marker fell heavy on the males - sucks.

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I saw every single animal produced, males and females ... not one had the marker. It's all bull **** if you ask me. ;)

-adam

"Yup. I hope to do a lot better than Pete did with the 20 66% het girls he tried to prove this year ... and they all had the marker."

Do tell the results please. These where markered possible hets he produced?

"It's all bull **** if you ask me."

That's a pretty clear quote of your position.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Do tell the results please. These where markered possible hets he produced?

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Every single one. The best "markers" you've ever seen. ;)

I'm sure when Pete is ready he will talk about his findings from breeding possible het girls with the so called "marker".

I think you'll see a lot of the speculation about whats going on with many popular morphs put to rest in the next 12 months or so. One more breeding season to iron things out.

-adam

I look forward to seeing what he has to post on the subject.

So they where 20 66% possible het pied females that he produced. Was that the full sample size or just the ones that produced clutches and failed to prove het pied this year? Where the males homozygous pieds from the same proven genetic line?

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I look forward to seeing what he has to post on the subject.

So they where 20 66% possible het pied females that he produced. Was that the full sample size or just the ones that produced clutches and failed to prove het pied this year? Where the males homozygous pieds from the same proven genetic line?

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LOL ... I'm sure when the time comes, Pete will provide the internet with answers to all of your questions ;) ... as I've said, it's really not my place to say. Alternatively, since you sound so curious, you could always pick up the phone???

I don't see why you would even ask if homozygous males were used? Pete has enough pieds that he doesn't need to screw around with het males. I also don't understand what you mean by "from the same proven genetic line"? ... Pete has more than conclusively proven that all of his original homozygous pieds are compatible as well as the new blood that has been brought in since he aquired his founding stock. You're not suggesting that anyone would be foolish enough to test for a marker and not use proven entities are you? What would be the point of that? Pete is a very bright guy, he knows what he's doing. ;)

-adam

If he where using old line markered possible het females to test out a new line of pied males for compatibility and you knew about it I didn't think you would volunteer that info. I would expect Peter Kahl to have a very good understanding of the marker by now and be beyond testing for it (by now he has either seen it well proved or not). Maybe this test was for something else (a new pied line, someone else’s marker look-alike import females, etc.). Sure I could just accept the implied message of everything you post but then in addition to believing that het pieds are no more likely to have the marker belly than non het pieds I would also believe that spiders are no more likely to spin than non spiders and that caramels are no more likely to kink than non caramels. Basically I don't trust your “say anything to protect the market” agenda.

Anyways... If there is a marker for Albinos, what it is? I'm not gonna bank any money on it, but I'll be curious to know, and maybe give me a ray of hope until I find out. Either way I know my chances are still 66%

I really don't think there is a marker for het albino. However, if there was, then they would not be 66% hets either way. If there was a reliable marker the ones with it would be a much higher chance and the ones without it a much lower chance.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Basically I don't trust your “say anything to protect the market” agenda.

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So your theories are "untouchable"? .... Because I question you, I have an agenda? ... I say what I believe market or not ... Why do you make yourself out to be so righteous? What makes your theories "honest" and my challenges "disingenuous". You don't even know me.

Pretty arrogant of you Randy.

-adam

Adam,

The issues I give you a hard time on are ones you should know way better than I. You actually work with pieds, spiders, and caramels and also talk to bigger breeders who have been working with them for years. You should be beyond theories as to IF there is a significant tendency for piebalds hets to have the belly marker, spiders to spin, and caramels to kink; I would expect a smart guy like you to know by now. Remember I'm just some guy working with possible hets and reading Internet posts in a vacuum. If I'm a more reliable source of public information on these subjects than you then something is wrong. These morphs are getting common enough that more and more readers every year will have the personal experience to make up their minds as to which of us is posting accurate information.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

You actually work with pieds, spiders, and caramels and also talk to bigger breeders who have been working with them for years. You should be beyond theories as to IF there is a significant tendency for piebalds hets to have the belly marker, spiders to spin, and caramels to kink; I would expect a smart guy like you to know by now. Remember I'm just some guy working with possible hets and reading Internet posts in a vacuum.

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Exactly. So how is it then, that you can claim what I say is an "agenda" and what you say must be fact? ... Your logic is completely lost on me.

I think it's pretty arrogant of you to claim that you know me, know how smart I may or may not be, know what I do know, or know what I should know. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised ... you've got it all figured out, don't you?

Contrary to what you believe, ball python breeders aren't sitting around trying to figure out all of the things that you want them to each breeding season Randy ... They are running businesses so that they can make money to feed their families. Maybe if you were a little more patient and a little less whiney about what information "should be" out there, you'd see that we're all working to get to the same place. Even if you're not comfortable with how long it's taking to get there.

Relax, the answers are coming.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Relax, the answers are coming.

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"I know what you're thinking right now.... 'Why oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill!?"

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Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

"I know what you're thinking right now.... 'Why oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill!?"

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LMAO.

Well, I've been down the rabbit hole and I've gotta say, it's way cool! ... The future for ball pythons is AMAZING! :D

-adam

I don't want to get anything started, i have read the thread over and over again trying to get one thing out of it. if you have a male pied and breed it to a normal female will the offspring be 100% het pied?

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Originally Posted by Stings

if you have a male pied and breed it to a normal female will the offspring be 100% het pied?

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Each offspring from a het pied to normal breeding would have a 50% chance of being het for pied (50% het pied). Some offspring would be normals and some would be hets. Since you can not tell the difference between a normal and a het visually....all offpsring are consider 50% possible hets.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Each offspring would have a 50% chance of being het for pied (50% het pied). Some offspring would be normals and some would be hets. Since you can not tell the difference between a normal and a het visually....all offpsring are consider 50% possible hets.

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Actually .... he said "male pied" ... so yes, all of the offspring would be 100% het for piebald.

There is no disagreement over that fact.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Actually .... he said "male pied" ... so yes, all of the offspring would be 100% het for piebald.

There is no disagreement over that fact.

-adam

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ha ha.....i thought it said het pied male....thanks for the backup :) ....I can't believe I misread that....I guess I have het pieds on my mind :D

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

ha ha.....i thought it said het pied male....thanks for the backup :) ....I can't believe I misread that....I guess I have het pieds on my mind :D

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;)

-adam