Follicles aborbed

I posted not long about my female BP (age 24, never been with male).

She was developing follicles and was bloated around the bottom third.
The bloating has practically gone, and you would not really notice any difference from normal now.
She is in the shedding process also now, about 2 weeks after I noticed the bloating, her eyes are cloudy now.

My question is, since the follicles aren't being fertilised, then should they all be absorbed?????

My vet says its unlikely all of the follicles will be reabsorbed, he says they should be laid if they aren't reabsorbed.
I think he basically wants to do surgery to remove them as they haven't been laid yet (assuming there are follicles left), but I'm skeptical as to if that is necessary or not.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Find a new vet and let nature take it's course whether the follicles are absorbed or they mature into eggs.

This is another example that shows most vet have little to no hands own experience with snakes.

Thanks, its a difficult situation cause I'm not an expert in biology so I feel obliged to put trust into the vet.

He basically said if we do nothing now, I might have problems in a year or two instead.
He was concerned about her not eating, but she never eats for a few months a year, and she is also going into shed right now which isn't gonna make her want to eat. So the not eating thing doesn't worry me right now as she's got a good weight to her.

Do you think I need to see another vet for an x-ray, even though there's no bloating now, or should I just leave her to it?

I'm not an expert. However, for all the countless snake breeder videos I've watched over the past several years....NO ONE that I ever saw discussed issues with unfertilized follicles being a problem that would require surgery. I could be wrong, but what the vet said to you seems TOTALLY off to me.

Don't blindly trust ANY vet who is helping you with an animal, esp. if that animal is outside his specialty. (Bird owners are ADAMANT about this - they go to certified avian vets, and fish people even get fish specialty vets, but I don't see much in the way of practices devoted specifically to reptiles...still, too biologically diverse as a group.) If you get an opinion that sounds odd, ask the vet to steer you toward some source material for your own further research. If he/she knows his stuff, he should be able to either give some reference, or explain specific past cases in his OWN practice that have led to that opinion.

It is possible she could still lay viable eggs. They have been know to produce offspring through parthenogenesis, meaning no male involved. I would get a second opinion at the very least. And do some research on parthenogenesis. Also it's normal for them to go off food while there in breeding mode all the way up until after they lay eggs and also there is a pre-lay shed. They normally lay within about a month of the shed.

you don't need an x-ray but instead you could have an ultrasound done.

Personally I would get a small incubator and supplies ready now just in case.

here is a good set of videos to start with on Youtube...Ball Python Parthenogenesis (Part 1) "Virgin Birth"

MrLundScience

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colin-java

Thanks, its a difficult situation cause I'm not an expert in biology so I feel obliged to put trust into the vet.

He basically said if we do nothing now, I might have problems in a year or two instead.
He was concerned about her not eating, but she never eats for a few months a year, and she is also going into shed right now which isn't gonna make her want to eat. So the not eating thing doesn't worry me right now as she's got a good weight to her.

Do you think I need to see another vet for an x-ray, even though there's no bloating now, or should I just leave her to it?

---

I would let her be.

Thanks for your input, at the time I didn't know what was going on, cause I always thought she was a he, and I knew it couldn't be constipation cause the last rat that was eaten already came out the other end in January so I had to get it checked out.

She looks back to normal now pretty much, maybe just fractionally wider at the lower end than in the middle.
I think if she doesn't start eating again in a couple of months I will see a different vet to see if there is an issue with the follicles.

It can be hard to find answers to these questions sometimes, so I figured the breeders would be the best people to ask.
There is the egg-bound thing, but unless there's parthenogenesis going on, I don't think you can call follicles eggs, so I think being egg-bound is not something I need to worry about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalikat

here is a good set of videos to start with on Youtube...Ball Python Parthenogenesis (Part 1) "Virgin Birth"

MrLundScience

---

Thanks so much, I will look soon, I know its a rare thing but if it were the case I wouldn't want these eggs removed by surgery by mistake.
How rare is it? Like 1 in 1000 maybe? :snake:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalikat

It is possible she could still lay viable eggs. They have been know to produce offspring through parthenogenesis, meaning no male involved. I would get a second opinion at the very least. And do some research on parthenogenesis. Also it's normal for them to go off food while there in breeding mode all the way up until after they lay eggs and also there is a pre-lay shed. They normally lay within about a month of the shed.

you don't need an x-ray but instead you could have an ultrasound done.

Personally I would get a small incubator and supplies ready now just in case.

---

Actually I had both an ultrasound and x-ray done, the ultrasound showed a couple of egg like things, but it was hard to tell what was what without the x-ray. The vet just said it was the follicles.

I donno if this is relevant, but she has just gone into shed, about 2 weeks after the follicles got enlarged and she was bloated.
Might just be a coincidence she is shedding right now, but parthenogenesis is statistically unlikely, I suppose I can research it during the next month so I know what to do.

I would love some babies though, it would be great if it happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colin-java

Actually I had both an ultrasound and x-ray done, the ultrasound showed a couple of egg like things, but it was hard to tell what was what without the x-ray. The vet just said it was the follicles.

I donno if this is relevant, but she has just gone into shed, about 2 weeks after the follicles got enlarged and she was bloated.
Might just be a coincidence she is shedding right now, but parthenogenesis is statistically unlikely, I suppose I can research it during the next month so I know what to do.

I would love some babies though, it would be great if it happened.

---

It sounds like ovulation occurred 2 weeks ago and now she is entering her pre-lay shed. It’s typically 30 days (give or take) after this you should see some eggs. The eggs will pass whether they are slugs (unfertilized egg) or viable eggs with life inside. Did the vet by any chance measure the follicles during the ultrasound? Ovulation occurs when the follicles are around 40-45 mm in diameter (roughly the size of a golf ball). Have you tried palpating? This method is very helpful as they near the lay date. Fertile eggs will feel soft, squishy, and marshmallow like while unfertilized eggs will feel hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

This method is very helpful as they near the lay date. Fertile eggs will feel soft, squishy, and marshmallow like while unfertilized eggs will feel hard.

---

Not sure what your breeding experience is but before giving that kind of advice you might want to do a little more research, no one palpates near lay date nor would it be helpful, actually you want to avoid palpating once the animal ovulated (and there is no proof that the animal did in this case, the animal was more than likely just building up and they will shed during follicular development.

People palpate to feel for follicles not eggs.

Quote:

---

unfertilized eggs will feel hard.

---

Yes and no slugs may feel hard however unfertilized eggs with no vein structure will feel like any normal eggs.

[QUOTE=Deborah;2685840]Not sure what your breeding experience is but before giving that kind of advice you might want to do a little more research, no one palpates near lay date nor would it be helpful, actually you want to avoid palpating once the animal ovulated


It is very helpful and I have been palpating after ovulation 3 years now. I can tell exactly how many slugs vs. fertile eggs my females and the females of friends will be laying. With the exception like you said the ones with no vein structure that are plump like a fertile egg (which was one egg in my case). This is the first that I’m hearing of “no one palpates near lay date” I’m going to have to kindly disagree with you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

It is very helpful and I have been palpating after ovulation 3 years now. I can tell exactly how many slugs vs. fertile eggs my females and the females of friends will be laying. With the exception like you said the ones with no vein structure that are plump like a fertile egg (which was one egg in my case). This is the first that I’m hearing of “no one palpates near lay date” I’m going to have to kindly disagree with you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

So you accomplish nothing (because you could have an entire clutch of unfertile eggs and you would not know). All you do is putting the female through unecessary stress at a time you should really not, squashing around eggs that you should really avoid squashing. :rolleyes:

All that is common sense and the fact that other let you do this on their females is actually crazy.

Another don't try this at home people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

So you accomplish nothing (because you could have an entire clutch of unfertile eggs and you would not know). All you do is putting the female through unecessary stress at a time you should really not, squashing around eggs that you should really avoid squashing. :rolleyes:

All that is common sense and the fact that other let you do this on their females is actually crazy.

Another don't try this at home people.

---

To each their own. I find it hilarious how many “Nazis” there are in this hobby you feel “their way” is the “only way”....face palm. I don’t know if your version of palpating is “hulk smashing” I know mine isn’t. In fact very little pressure is needed because they are so big. Your talking about “squashing” the very same eggs that are in turn so hearty and durable. No where does the “common sense” fall? Before you decide that you are a “keyboard warrior” why don’t you do some research to broaden your narrow mind. You are exactly the wrong person for this hobby. Rather asking questions you make assumptions. Rather than politely disagreeing like I did in my previous comment you got snotty. Apparently it’s an unspoken “rule” that everyone must agree on everything or else you just don’t have common sense. I’m sorry but in this case I would much rather palpate my female to answer my question rather than cause unnecessary stress by vet appointments for X-rays and ultrasounds. Maybe I should double check with you first since CLEARLY you seem to be the master splinter around here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cloudynight1017

It sounds like ovulation occurred 2 weeks ago and now she is entering her pre-lay shed. It’s typically 30 days (give or take) after this you should see some eggs. The eggs will pass whether they are slugs (unfertilized egg) or viable eggs with life inside. Did the vet by any chance measure the follicles during the ultrasound? Ovulation occurs when the follicles are around 40-45 mm in diameter (roughly the size of a golf ball). Have you tried palpating? This method is very helpful as they near the lay date. Fertile eggs will feel soft, squishy, and marshmallow like while unfertilized eggs will feel hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Thanks for the help, its all a bit bewildering for me at the moment...
No he didn't measure them on the ultrasound, but I saw them, or a cross section of them, hard for me to say how big they were to be honest.

I understand the follicles become the eggs when fertilized by a male, that's kinda obvious,
But without a male (and without parthenogenesis) can follicles become unfertilized eggs (slugs)?
And if so, I suppose that still counts as ovulation as they are still eggs?

Right now, her eyes are going cloudy, so that matches her swelling up 2 weeks ago.


I didn't try palpating at the time she was bloated as I thought she was a male at that point, she basically just felt squishy underneath in that area, as opposed to firm like under the stomach area.

Thanks for the help. :snake:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colin-java

Thanks for the help, its all a bit bewildering for me at the moment...
No he didn't measure them on the ultrasound, but I saw them, or a cross section of them, hard for me to say how big they were to be honest.

I understand the follicles become the eggs when fertilized by a male, that's kinda obvious,
But without a male (and without parthenogenesis) can follicles become unfertilized eggs (slugs)?
And if so, I suppose that still counts as ovulation as they are still eggs?

Right now, her eyes are going cloudy, so that matches her swelling up 2 weeks ago.


I didn't try palpating at the time she was bloated as I thought she was a male at that point, she basically just felt squishy underneath in that area, as opposed to firm like under the stomach area.

Thanks for the help. :snake:

---

Without a male they will either be partho or unfertilized (slug or not). My opinion is that it was ovulation. If it happened to me I would palpate and have my answer right then and there. 2 weeks after ovulation though you really aren’t going to feel the separation/definition of each individual egg. It would feel all fluffy kinda. Unlike when you palpate when there are no follicles you can feel air bubbles and urates etc...this would just feel super soft like a squishy pillow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cloudynight1017

Without a male they will either be partho or unfertilized (slug or not). My opinion is that it was ovulation. If it happened to me I would palpate and have my answer right then and there. 2 weeks after ovulation though you really aren’t going to feel the separation/definition of each individual egg. It would feel all fluffy kinda. Unlike when you palpate when there are no follicles you can feel air bubbles and urates etc...this would just feel super soft like a squishy pillow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

It felt very squishy, I noticed a few weeks prior to the bloating/ovulating she was drinking a lot more than usual.
And she's been lying funny as well from time to time with her belly up, but her head is always the right way up.

I don't understand why I don't see her building up follicles every year, since they can breed every year in theory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colin-java

It felt very squishy, I noticed a few weeks prior to the bloating/ovulating she was drinking a lot more than usual.
And she's been lying funny as well from time to time with her belly up, but her head is always the right way up.

I don't understand why I don't see her building up follicles every year, since they can breed every year in theory.

---

I have 1 female that never shows any signs at all. She doesn’t bowl wrap, she doesn’t really swell up (with the exception of ovulation) so doesn’t lay inverted, she doesn’t stay on the cool end. You would think that she just wasn’t going to go if you didn’t palpate or ultrasound her. In fact her ovulations are small as well. She ovulated on the 9th of this month and she isn’t even going into shed yet. I think this year she will be skipping her pre-lay shed. I wouldn’t stress out too much about her not displaying the typical signs while building. You should though make notes because most females typically follow the same schedule every year. My albino girl followed the exact same schedule right down to the day while the others were with a month of the previous year. Maybe next year it will be easier for you to notice her signs now that you kinda know what she does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cloudynight1017

I have 1 female that never shows any signs at all. She doesn’t bowl wrap, she doesn’t really swell up (with the exception of ovulation) so doesn’t lay inverted, she doesn’t stay on the cool end. You would think that she just wasn’t going to go if you didn’t palpate or ultrasound her. In fact her ovulations are small as well. She ovulated on the 9th of this month and she isn’t even going into shed yet. I think this year she will be skipping her pre-lay shed. I wouldn’t stress out too much about her not displaying the typical signs while building. You should though make notes because most females typically follow the same schedule every year. My albino girl followed the exact same schedule right down to the day while the others were with a month of the previous year. Maybe next year it will be easier for you to notice her signs now that you kinda know what she does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Thanks, I've had her 24 years though and not noticed before, might be a mid-life crisis or something.
But I'll pay attention to these dates next year.

I don't know exactly when the male is meant to be introduced, but if its before ovulation that might trigger her to start building up the follicles, I donno, just speculating there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cloudynight1017

To each their own.

---

While I normally agree to each their own and different things work for different people, what's the point in this? Why does it matter or do you need to know how many eggs/slugs there will be? Once the female ovulates, it's done. It just seems like unnecessary stress. Sorry if this is going off topic.

OP - it might be nothing, might be she built but won't ovulate or maybe she will.
Females of a variety of species can and do lay full clutches of non-fertalized eggs and there is no harm. I think surgery to remove follicles seems totally unneeded and would be a waste of money not to mention the stress it would put on the female. My female corn lays a clutch of eggs each year now that there's a male corn in the house, but they have never been in contact. I would only think surgery would be necessary if the female becomes egg bound while trying to lay.
Hope everything works out okay!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colin-java

I don't know exactly when the male is meant to be introduced, but if its before ovulation that might trigger her to start building up the follicles, I donno, just speculating there.

---

The male can be introduced before hand to stimulate follicle growth. Some pair every shed cycle of the female. Some pair once a month. I personally aim for every other week. All pairings are before ovulation. Once ovulation occurs it’s a done deal. This site helped me a great deal. I still give it a read or 2 every season
https://ballpython.ca/breeding/



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colin-java

I don't know exactly when the male is meant to be introduced, but if its before ovulation that might trigger her to start building up the follicles, I donno, just speculating there.

---

I should mention that more people than not follow the “breeding season”. This will start typically between the months of October and January as that’s when it gets colder in most areas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

While I normally agree to each their own and different things work for different people, what's the point in this? Why does it matter or do you need to know how many eggs/slugs there will be? Once the female ovulates, it's done. It just seems like unnecessary stress. Sorry if this is going off topic.

OP - it might be nothing, might be she built but won't ovulate or maybe she will.
Females of a variety of species can and do lay full clutches of non-fertalized eggs and there is no harm. I think surgery to remove follicles seems totally unneeded and would be a waste of money not to mention the stress it would put on the female. My female corn lays a clutch of eggs each year now that there's a male corn in the house, but they have never been in contact. I would only think surgery would be necessary if the female becomes egg bound while trying to lay.
Hope everything works out okay!

---

Doesn't the prelay shed strongly indicate laying will occur?

I also don't wanna do surgery as theres no need for it after just 2 weeks time of the diagnosis of the follicle growth, its not like a broken leg or something (which snakes don't tend to get anyway).
Obviously its bad for the snake and my wallet too.
The vet is gonna phone me tomorrow, I'm gonna tell him I'll wait for her to shed and give her a month or so to lay eggs before I do anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colin-java

Doesn't the prelay shed strongly indicate laying will occur?

I also don't wanna do surgery as theres no need for it after just 2 weeks time of the diagnosis of the follicle growth, its not like a broken leg or something (which snakes don't tend to get anyway).
Obviously its bad for the snake and my wallet too.
The vet is gonna phone me tomorrow, I'm gonna tell him I'll wait for her to shed and give her a month or so to lay eggs before I do anything.

---

As I explained previously you do not know if it was pre-lay, if your snake was building up which means developing follicles it does not mean she ovulated (egg fertilization) nor that she will ovulate especially since there is no male involved and that parthenogenesis is highly unlikely.

Female will build up (developing follicles) however if not bred they just simply absorbed their follicles (some rare cases of ova being expelled have also been documented)

Follicular development is something that last 4 to 8 months and during that time females will shed, those are not pre-lay shed, a pre-lay shed is something happening withing 14 days of ovulation and an ovulation is hard to miss and very different than just building up, the animal is VERY swollen in the mid section and hard nothing like the picture you posted.

Worst case if you missed the ovulation (again unlikely without a male) and the animal had a pre-lay shed your eggs would be laid 30 days after the pre-lay (on average)

I will say it again drop your vet he has NO CLUE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

As I explained previously you do not know if it was pre-lay, if your snake was building up which means developing follicles it does not mean she ovulated (egg fertilization) nor that she will ovulate especially since there is no male involved and that parthenogenesis is highly unlikely.

Female will build up (developing follicles) however if not bred they just simply absorbed their follicles (some rare cases of ova being expelled have also been documented)

Follicular development is something that last 4 to 8 months and during that time females will shed, those are not pre-lay shed, a pre-lay shed is something happening withing 14 days of ovulation and an ovulation is hard to miss and very different than just building up, the animal is VERY swollen in the mid section and hard nothing like the picture you posted.

Worst case if you missed the ovulation (again unlikely without a male) and the animal had a pre-lay shed your eggs would be laid 30 days after the pre-lay (on average)

I will say it again drop your vet he has NO CLUE.

---

Thanks, but those pictures were a few days after I noticed the heavy swelling, it had gone down quite a bit by then, I should have took pictures when I first noticed it.

So I think it might have been an ovulation, it does tie in with the pre-lay shed.

On the other hand, she does look pretty much back to normal, only slightly wider around the bottom third of body, so perhaps all follicles have been absorbed.

Is it possible for a large follicle to not be reabsorbed, and not develop into an egg (fertilised or unfertilised), and just sit there doing nothing???

The vet is gonna phone me today, I'm gonna tell him I'm just gonna wait to see if any eggs get laid.

Thanks for your help. :snake:

I want some pie. Anyone else?