First BP / First Shed / Stressed Behavior Question

I recently (19 days ago) got my first BP. I have spent every free moment pouring through the internet, the forums here, and books trying to absorb as much information as possible to provide the best care I can. That said, I think I may have made a mistake and I would appreciate feedback from the group here. My (unsexed/unnamed) BP has done incredibly well in terms of feeding (3 f/t adult mice in total, on a 5 day schedule). However, last Friday I went to handle it for a bit and found those blue eyes staring out at me, so I decided to leave it be, rather than add additional stress or risk affecting the shed. Monday was feeding day, so I went ahead and attempted to feed. The snake (I know, I hate it too, but I don't want to take it to be sexed until the shed is complete) struck once but missed slightly, then retreated as if no longer interested. Warming the mouse back up had little effect, so somewhere in my brilliant mind I decided that lifting the hide (warm side) might help induce the feeding reaction. Instead it prompted the snake to relocate to another hide (one of those ceramic half logs, meant for enrichment, not hiding) which is in roughly the middle of the enclosure, where the surface temp is about 2-3 degrees lower than being directly over the UTH in the warm hide. It has not come back out since, and it is now Wednesday morning.

It seems clear to me that lifting the hide was a stupid decision, my question for the group is, should I leave it alone and trust that the snake is regulating its temp, or should I try to get it back to the warm side. I have packed one end of the half log with damp moss to try to ensure good humidity in the current position, but past that, I am unsure of the right course of action.

Thank you all in advance for any feedback!

Yeah, lifting their hides is a surefire way to either a) get yourself bit or b) spook the snake and guarantee a refusal.

As for whether or not you should move your snake...let it be. They've survived thousands of years without us intervening. Your snake knows how to thermoregulate.

EDIT - the surface temp in the half log is 82, vs the warm hide at 86 (the damp moss is keeping it down a little in there).

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Originally Posted by fadingdaylight

EDIT - the surface temp in the half log is 82, vs the warm hide at 86 (the damp moss is keeping it down a little in there).

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Okay, just a few little things:

1) you want to get that warm side up to about 89-90.
2) those half log hides are unfortunately no good for BPs. They prefer single entry cave style hides that offer more security.

VERY IMPORTANT: Are your heat sources regulated by a thermostat???

Yes, the UTH is on thermostat, and there is a small cave style hide over it (and about 2in of coco husk/cypress mulch mix). Outside of the hide, on the hot side, the surface temp is 89, with a tiny hotspot of 91 directly under the lamp. Using a timer to run 12/12 daylight/nightlight cycle, and maintain temps (exo terra 36/18/12). The half log was really just meant as filler since the snake is only around 24in, 210g, right now, I wanted to try to crowd the tank a little. There is also a cave type hide on the cool side, where surface temps get down to 76 at the lowest point in the back corner, but this one seems to only get used as a playground at night, then it's back to the warm side in the morning.

Ultimately, I realize that I went the wrong direction buying this tank to begin with, I was looking for aesthetics more than environment, and I am seriously considering putting together a tub and selling the exo terra off, but for the moment I am just trying to ensure a clean shed.

Sorry, forgot to do a quoted reply, haven't been in any forums for a few years...

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Originally Posted by fadingdaylight

Yes, the UTH is on thermostat, and there is a small cave style hide over it (and about 2in of coco husk/cypress mulch mix). Outside of the hide, on the hot side, the surface temp is 89, with a tiny hotspot of 91 directly under the lamp. Using a timer to run 12/12 daylight/nightlight cycle, and maintain temps (exo terra 36/18/12). The half log was really just meant as filler since the snake is only around 24in, 210g, right now, I wanted to try to crowd the tank a little. There is also a cave type hide on the cool side, where surface temps get down to 76 at the lowest point in the back corner, but this one seems to only get used as a playground at night, then it's back to the warm side in the morning.

Ultimately, I realize that I went the wrong direction buying this tank to begin with, I was looking for aesthetics more than environment, and I am seriously considering putting together a tub and selling the exo terra off, but for the moment I am just trying to ensure a clean shed.

Sorry, forgot to do a quoted reply, haven't been in any forums for a few years...

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Ok. Sounds good. Is the heat lamp on a thermostat?

Also, I don't run day/night light cycles. BPs spend almost all their time hiding anyway. I just use the dark purple ones. I've been using them for years and run the 24/7.

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Ok. Sounds good. Is the heat lamp on a thermostat?

Also, I don't run day/night light cycles. BPs spend almost all their time hiding anyway. I just use the dark purple ones. I've been using them for years and run the 24/7.

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Right now the lamp is not on a thermostat, it will be soon, it's a 60w bulb and I have been monitoring the surface temps all over the enclosure, including on top of hides, etc, with a temp gun to ensure nothing is getting too warm. I had 100w bulbs for a day or two, but noticed that certain places were hitting 99-100, so I downgraded to 60w. They seem just barely capable of maintaining the correct temp when combined with the UTH. I will check out those purple bulbs though.

First and foremost, get that bulb on a thermostat. All heating systems need to be on a thermostat, always.

Personally, I don't do feedings when the snakes are in shed. My BPs go through the cycle pretty quickly anyway, a matter of days. They shed and poop, often enough inside the shed. I find it, clean up, and then feed.

The snake is eating so things are going generally well, but you might want to put more thought into your heating system.

Don't you find two heat sources needlessly complicated? Why have two thermostats when just one will do the trick? Plus there's the issue of a glaring 60w bulb. You need to run the thing 24/7, its going to blow out, the snake is nocturnal and likely isn't in love with it. I would really look for another option.

Here's a quick and inexpensive fix. Unplug the UTH, get a ceramic heat emitter (CHE), reposition the stat probe inside the tank, and plug the CHE into the thermostat. Your temp issue will disappear in hours.

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

First and foremost, get that bulb on a thermostat. All heating systems need to be on a thermostat, always.

Personally, I don't do feedings when the snakes are in shed. My BPs go through the cycle pretty quickly anyway, a matter of days. They shed and poop, often enough inside the shed. I find it, clean up, and then feed.

The snake is eating so things are going generally well, but you might want to put more thought into your heating system.

Don't you find two heat sources needlessly complicated? Why have two thermostats when just one will do the trick? Plus there's the issue of a glaring 60w bulb. You need to run the thing 24/7, its going to blow out, the snake is nocturnal and likely isn't in love with it. I would really look for another option.

Here's a quick and inexpensive fix. Unplug the UTH, get a ceramic heat emitter (CHE), reposition the stat probe inside the tank, and plug the CHE into the thermostat. Your temp issue will disappear in hours.

Just a thought.

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Incredibly inexpensive actually, considering I have the CHE already. I tried that too, still in conjunction with the UTH, but found temps getting too high. I never considered running it without the mat. The 60w bulbs are running 12 on 12 off, with a daylight bulb from 8am to 8pm, and red nightlight bulb from 8pm to 8am. But that red bulb seems to destroy my humidity.

In the end, I feel like most of my temp issues are the result of the glass tank with a vented front strip, but I know that red light is killing my humidity, there is always a heavy drop over night. I may go ahead and give the CHE a shot, my only concern would be its ability to warm the substrate under the hide effectively, that's where I like the UTH.

I appreciate all the feedback, the more I learn the better.

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Originally Posted by fadingdaylight

In the end, I feel like most of my temp issues are the result of the glass tank with a vented front strip, but I know that red light is killing my humidity, there is always a heavy drop over night. I may go ahead and give the CHE a shot, my only concern would be its ability to warm the substrate under the hide effectively, that's where I like the UTH.

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Yeah, glass tanks can be difficult, but all the problems they present are surmountable. Some people even prefer them.

That CHE will heat the entire interior of the tank, but expect it to take longer for the substrate under the hide to warm up, it may take a few hours or so to reach the same temp as the rest of the warm side, but rest assured it will.

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Originally Posted by fadingdaylight

The 60w bulbs are running 12 on 12 off, with a daylight bulb from 8am to 8pm, and red nightlight bulb from 8pm to 8am. But that red bulb seems to destroy my humidity.

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That's a lot of bulbs! If it were me, I'd scrap them all and go with one CHE, plugged in 24/7, and running on the thermostat. It's more efficient than incandescent bulbs also so it'll save on the electric bill.

Sounds like your doing well and let us know how the shed goes.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

Yeah, glass tanks can be difficult, but all the problems they present are surmountable. Some people even prefer them.

That CHE will heat the entire interior of the tank, but expect it to take longer for the substrate under the hide to warm up, it may take a few hours or so to reach the same temp as the rest of the warm side, but rest assured it will.

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This may be a dumb question, but where should I position the probe if I go to just the CHE? On the screen top inside the dome? Or just barely poking out of the substrate inside the tank? Right now I'm using a Zoo Med on/off style stat, but I have plans to upgrade soon.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

Sounds like your doing well and let us know how the shed goes.

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Will do, and I will try to get a progression thread started soon as well. I have been keeping a digital journal with all of my notes, weights, feedings, meal weights, photos, videos, etc., so I have plenty of material to get one going.

Another trick for glass enclosures is to wrap them in foam board insulation. I use 1/2" and it helps immensely with heat and humidity control

I would get a radiant heat panel if I were you. My CHE would make a pretty high basking spot directly under and also zapped all of the humidity out. The radiant heat panel is much better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Another trick for glass enclosures is to wrap them in foam board insulation. I use 1/2" and it helps immensely with heat and humidity control

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It has got the cork tile exo terra rock background, I was considering ordering 2 of the 12x18 pieces to put on the sides, inside the tank, which would help tighten up the space and provide less visibility. Right now I have foil and duct tape covering most of the screen top to trap heat and humidity, and hand towels draped down the sides to block visibility. Do you think the cork tile pieces would work as well as the foam board, in terms of insulation?

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Originally Posted by Jcd5v

I would get a radiant heat panel if I were you. My CHE would make a pretty high basking spot directly under and also zapped all of the humidity out. The radiant heat panel is much better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I considered doing this, but with a 12in tall tank, there just isn't room for the RHP to be mounted.

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Originally Posted by fadingdaylight

This may be a dumb question, but where should I position the probe if I go to just the CHE? On the screen top inside the dome? Or just barely poking out of the substrate inside the tank? Right now I'm using a Zoo Med on/off style stat, but I have plans to upgrade soon.

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The only dumb question is the one not asked.

As I understand, you dangle the probe about an inch or so above the substrate on the warm side under the CHE. That way you measure ambient temp and the snake can't move the probe significantly. You use the temp gun to measure the temp of the substrate and under the hides.

It'll take some fiddling to get it all correct, but it's very doable.

What kind of thermostat you looking to upgrade to?

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Originally Posted by fadingdaylight

I considered doing this, but with a 12in tall tank, there just isn't room for the RHP to be mounted.

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I use nothing but RHPs, and none of my enclosures is taller than 12". But I don't hear about many people using RHPs in glass tanks. I think its hard to attach them to the top, or something... Not sure, never done it.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

What kind of thermostat you looking to upgrade to?

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Something proportional, kinda got my eye on the VE200.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

I use nothing but RHPs, and none of my enclosures is taller than 12". But I don't hear about many people using RHPs in glass tanks. I think its hard to attach them to the top, or something... Not sure, never done it.

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Are you using PVC enclosures, like a T8?

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Originally Posted by fadingdaylight

Are you using PVC enclosures, like a T8?

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I am, but I think I bought my last T8. Animal Plastics takes forever to fullfill their orders. Last time, I waited for literally five months. I bought well in advance of an expo here in Mass, and watched the date blow by and still no enclosure. For $250 (with shipping) upfront that is way too long to wait. The last two enclosures I bought were Reptile Basics, and I'm much much happier with them. The enclosures are just as nice, maybe even a bit better, cost the same (including shipping) and arrive in just a few weeks. End of soapbox.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

I am, but I think I bought my last T8. Animal Plastics takes forever to fullfill their orders. Last time, I waited for literally five months. I bought well in advance of an expo here in Mass, and watched the date blow by and still no enclosure. For $250 (with shipping) upfront that is way too long to wait. The last two enclosures I bought were Reptile Basics, and I'm much much happier with them. The enclosures are just as nice, maybe even a bit better, cost the same (including shipping) and arrive in just a few weeks. End of soapbox.

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Good to know, honestly. I wish I had gone PVC from the jump, but the Visions I looked at were kinda pricey, so I went glass, then realized that Animal Plastics had them at prices comparable to glass. It will probably be a few months, but ultimately I would like to go to PVC for the "easier to regulate environment" factor. I will go have a look at those Reptile Basics ones.

Yes, cork tiles work fine to insulate glass (very similar to styro-foam); many things can be used to insulate glass, those are 2 of the most effective if your room
is too cool. I'm answering this because you asked & I don't think you got an answer? ;)

I have the reptile basics 2x3x1 and a 4x2x1. I think the 2x3x1 is perfect for the entire life of a BP. I started a hatchling in it and she's been doing great. It holds heat and humidity better than the APs do. The PVC is also shinier and cleans better. Sometimes some of the feces can stick to the bottom of the T8s, but the RB is so slick and sheen that all the filth lifts right off with minimal elbow grease.

The thing that really drives me nuts about the AP T8s is the sliding glass doors. Yeah, they sound like a great idea, but they are in kind of loose so whenever you walk by the glass rattles. I have to wedge Q-tips between to hold the glass in place. The RB acrylic doors latch in place nice and tight.

Now, I wouldn't buy an RHP from them though, but I'm going on. It's a slow day at work and you know how it is when you start talking about a hobby....

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Yes, cork tiles work fine to insulate glass (very similar to styro-foam); many things can be used to insulate glass, those are 2 of the most effective if your room
is too cool. I'm answering this because you asked & I don't think you got an answer? ;)

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Much appreciated, I will go that route for now until I can spring for the PVC enclosure.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

Now, I wouldn't buy an RHP from them though, but I'm going on. It's a slow day at work and you know how it is when you start talking about a hobby....

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Indeed, kinda slow here today too, so I'm taking advantage of the time to gather more information. On that note... where would you recommend looking for an RHP?

Also, you've only had the snake for 2 & 1/2 weeks...sexing the snake should wait, eating is FAR more important & sexing the snake may further inhibit the snake
from eating. Likewise, it's best not to handle a new snake (of any kind) until they've fed easily for you at normal intervals at least 3 times. Sexing a snake is like
handling times 10...it's "rude" and snakes don't appreciate it much. ;) Since BPs can be hesitant feeders, your focus should first be on that, gender can wait.

I also do NOT feed in shed...some will take food, many will not. Of those that take food anyway, sometimes it messes up their shed, so that it sticks & only comes
off in a million pieces...so why chance it? The reason is that both digestion and shedding requires good hydration from the snake's body to accomplish- not all
snakes are healthy & hydrated well enough to "multi-task".

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Originally Posted by fadingdaylight

Indeed, kinda slow here today too, so I'm taking advantage of the time to gather more information. On that note... where would you recommend looking for an RHP?

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Also curious as to why you won't buy an RHP from Reptile Basics. I have 2 and they work well... ProProducts is more of a hassle to order and I don't like that they aren't a hard surface. But safety is important to me, so I'm always willing to hear out any potential safety concerns. :)

Edited to say I quoted the wrong post, sorry!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Also, you've only had the snake for 2 & 1/2 weeks...sexing the snake should wait, eating is FAR more important & sexing the snake may further inhibit the snake
from eating. Likewise, it's best not to handle a new snake (of any kind) until they've fed easily for you at normal intervals at least 3 times. Sexing a snake is like
handling times 10...it's "rude" and snakes don't appreciate it much. ;) Since BPs can be hesitant feeders, your focus should first be on that, gender can wait.

I also do NOT feed in shed...some will take food, many will not. Of those that take food anyway, sometimes it messes up their shed, so that it sticks & only comes
off in a million pieces...so why chance it? The reason is that both digestion and shedding requires good hydration from the snake's body to accomplish- not all
snakes are healthy & hydrated well enough to "multi-task".

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I agree, I have put the sexing off in favor of acclimation and feeding, and tried to even keep handling to a minimum during this early stage. We have had three successful feedings, all strikes while dangling from the tongs, on F/T mice (will be switching to rats in about another week or so, couldn't find the right size locally). This one (during shed) was the first missed meal, and the snake actually struck at the food, just missed, which I am guessing is a combination of blindness and me not getting the mouse warm enough for heat detection to function in place of sight. However, I don't think I will attempt to feed during shed anymore, I really only did it this time since it was the first, to see what the response would be. Trying to learn this particular snake's normal behavior patterns and all.

But yeah, I don't imagine I would appreciate being probed either, so that will continue to wait for now. I am planning on having a nearby (an hour away) reptile vet do a basic health check to ensure I am not missing anything. To be fair, I did get the snake from the dreaded Petsmart, and being a beginner, it seems the most responsible thing to do. I will have them do the probe at that point.

By the way...:welcome: I think you're going to be an excellent snake-keeper. :snake:

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Originally Posted by fadingdaylight

Indeed, kinda slow here today too, so I'm taking advantage of the time to gather more information. On that note... where would you recommend looking for an RHP?

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Originally Posted by WhompingWillow

Also curious as to why you won't buy an RHP from Reptile Basics. I have 2 and they work well... ProProducts is more of a hassle to order and I don't like that they aren't a hard surface. But safety is important to me, so I'm always willing to hear out any potential safety concerns. :)

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I now buy all my RHPs from Pro-Products (https://pro-products.com/). A lot of forum members here use them to. You need to call and order, which is a pain, but what can you do....

I bought one RHP from Reptile Basics, just to try, and it warped after a couple of days. Before you ask, yes it is, and was, regulated with a thermostat. Subsequent internet research indicates that this wasn't the first Reptile Basics RHP to have warped. I'm still using it and it works fine but, not too impressed. All my other RHPs are from ProProducts. He's more expensive and, granted, a bit of a hassle to order from but the product is top quality. At least none of mine have warped.

Kind of a funny story about the RB RHP. Shortly after she arrived I went to check on my BEL, Helena, and couldn't find her in her normal hide. I tried another and another but she was nowhere to be found. Finally I took everything out from the enclosure, even the paper towel substrate (she was in quarantine at the time). No sign of a pearl white snake in the black enclosure. I freaked! I was about to start tearing up the room when I saw a white reflection in the upper right corner of the enclosure. It was then I learned that the RHP had warped just enough so that a little hatchling could crawl up onto the top of it! A quick fix and she can't get up there anymore! We called her "spider-snake" for a while after that!

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

By the way...:welcome: I think you're going to be an excellent snake-keeper. :snake:

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Fully agree!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

By the way...:welcome: I think you're going to be an excellent snake-keeper. :snake:

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Thank you both!

So, all my worry was for naught. By the time I made it home from work today, I noticed what looked like shed skin poking out of the edge of the hide he/she has been using. I decided that it was time to lift another hide...
Nice clean shed. One small separate piece (part of the head, where it undoubtedly started the process, with two complete spectacles!), and one flawlessly rolled up sock made up of 99% of the shed. No stuck pieces, beautiful fresh scales shining. I couldn't resist at this point, and went ahead and took it out for a bit, got a few pictures, etc. I will go ahead and take another shot at feeding later this evening, and I am confident it will go well.

Thank you all for your responses and advice.

I just wanted to take the time to thank you for doing your homework.