Male and Female bp's residing in the same enclosure

Can anyone give me their opinion on keeping these two together?
my local store advised me that it is ok to have them together and only seperate them during feeding time.

a quick search on this forum will answer your question.

... or you can take note that ball pythons have been known to eat each other when housed together.

Probably not a good idea.

-adam

Your local store doesn't care if they stress or lose animals because they only pay 10-20 bucks for 'em.

I double checked today with the local snake pro. He said to leave the balls together , he explained he has 60 snakes all different species and he's never had a problem with keeping some of them together, as long as properly feed and size is taken into consideration it is ok

I don't have my snakes yet but after looking at Adams site, i think ill listen to him. it would be great to save money on the caging but it could save allot more if a save the snakes. everyone else here seems to know allot more then i do so i would listen to the pros.

if this person said its ok and common practice to keep them together than I have news for you...he is not a "pro". Either this person has complete disreguard for the animal or is to lazy to actually learn about the species and keep them properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emilio

Can anyone give me their opinion on keeping these two together?
my local store advised me that it is ok to have them together and only seperate them during feeding time.

---

i used to do that same thing. what you'll notice is that one will constantly be curling around the other, and i learned on this site that that was one assurting dominence over the other. i also noticed that my female seemed more stressed and hardly ever came out. don't ever, ever, ever, ever, ever do it!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emilio

Can anyone give me their opinion on keeping these two together?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Probably not a good idea

---

(I don't really have time to quote all the rest of the replies that you've received on this thread)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emilio

I double checked today with the local snake pro. He said to leave the balls together , he explained he has 60 snakes all different species and he's never had a problem with keeping some of them together, as long as properly feed and size is taken into consideration it is ok

---

It's clear that either you didn't want our opinions on keeping these two together, or you think that the "pet store guy" is more of a pro than any of the professional breeders on this site are. The only question I have to ask of you, emilio, is if you really believe that.... Why are you asking our opinions?

thank you for posting Im gong to separate them as soon as possible

very good move on seperating them, you are laying an excellent path for becoming a responsible keeper by asking questions and taking advice. There is a never ending supply of knowledge here so don't be affraid to tap into it!

Another point that wasn't stated is that most of the pet store owners who actually breed their animals too are so overwhelmed with their work that they do things that shouldn't be done. Another thing that wasn't stated is that if one gets sick the other will get sick too and you have just doubled that two hundred dollar vet visit to four hundred. EX. Say you didn't clean or rinse an object in their tank or cage good enough and the chemical (this happened to me with bleach) you used gave the snake an RI now you have two snakes with RI and that can be really expensive.

Now, it's not that most of us haven't done this, but we have all learned the hard way not to do this. Even the famous Adam says on his website that he has done the multiple per cage thing and had accidental eggs. We have all learned that it is just safer, easier, and less stressful on the snakes not to do this.

~Jim

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Even the famous Adam says

---

Now was that really necessary?

-adam

Didn't mean to upset you, I was just trying to get the point across of learning from our mistakes. :hug:

being a newbie, I'm not sure if I should be adding my comments but here goes anyway (braces for the resulting salvos). I have my 2yr male and 9 month old female in the same terrarium. I have had no problems with either of them that I can tell. Either I've been lucky thus far or their home is large enough that they both have enough "breathing room". It's roughly 2'x2'x4 (~80gal)... just FYI, take it for what it's worth ok? :)

once again...why put the keeping of your animals on the shoulders of risk?? Lots of people will do what they want to do but if you really want to do what is right take the advice of successful keepers/breeders. This topic has been beaten bloody many times. There are just to many risks involved when keeping them together...if you don't care about the well being of your animals go ahead and let "luck" be your guide...for the rest of you who put forth the effort to be responsible keepers, I solute you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

I have had no problems with either of them that I can tell.

---

Key words .... "that you can tell". Give them some time, you'll see. ;)

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TekWarren

...if you don't care about the well being of your animals go ahead and let "luck" be your guide...for the rest of you who put forth the effort to be responsible keepers, I solute you.

---

I don't know who you are and at this point don't really care, what I do care about is the implication that I am lazy, careless and unfit to own snakes. I have heard/read good arguments for both views on housing balls together, from "experts" and amatuers. What I have NOT seen until now is a supposed "expert" bash another person for merely stating their views or experiences...or is it normal practice to bash "newbies" for speaking? :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

I have heard/read good arguments for both views on housing balls together, from "experts" and amatuers.

---

What would a "good argument" for keeping two or more ball pythons in the same enclosure be exactly? And how were the "experts" that gave you those arguments?

If you rattled off a list of the 25 largest ball python producers in the world, you wouldn't find a single one that keeps more than one snake per enclosure.

I'm not bashing, just asking.

-adam

Adam, I'm not trying to be an a$$ about things, and my main issue now isn't the multi housing, it's the seemingly rude behavior of others... I'll just leave my opinions to myself in the future and as pointed out, this discussion of housing is beating a dead horse so I'll drop it. Thank you for your thoughts on the matter and I will definitely keep a very close eye on both of them, as any responsible keeper would!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

Adam, I'm not trying to be an a$$ about things

---

Never said that you were. Although from the first sentence of your first post in this thread, it’s obvious that you knew what you were getting yourself into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

and my main issue now isn't the multi housing

---

Well, unfortunately, mine is ... in your previous post you made claims that you were told by "experts" that it's okay to house multiple ball pythons in the same enclosure ... if you can back those claims up then I'd really like to hear that ... if not, then I feel that spreading false information in order to prove a point on a forum viewed by many new keepers is pretty lame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

it's the seemingly rude behavior of others.

---

Still doesn't give you the right to make a hugely controversial claim and then not back it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

I'll just leave my opinions to myself in the future

---

That truly a shame .... and I think quite contrary to the jist of your signature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

and as pointed out, this discussion of housing is beating a dead horse so I'll drop it.

---

As a proponent of keeping 1 snake per enclosure and being well aware of the dangers to the healths and lives of multiple snakes being kept in a single enclosure, I don't think this discussion is ever like beating a dead horse. I'll go on until my mouth dries out and my tongue swells advocating my view if it will save even one single ball python.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

I will definitely keep a very close eye on both of them, as any responsible keeper would!

---

Unfortunately, with ball pythons being most active when human beings are asleep, you certainly can't keep that close of an eye on them ... and as an admitted newbie, would you really know what to look for?

It has been documented that ball pythons housed together can and will eat each other. I don't know what other evidence anyone would ever need to house royals individually.

Thank you for tolerating my somewhat boisterous opinions. :D

-adam

lovemyBalls, the size difference in your snake alone is reason enough to split them, one the female could look like a tepting meal as stated above, 2nd you have a 2 y/o male in with a 9 month old female that could lead to htem hooking up way to early in her life....and that is never a good thing. 1 snake + 1 snake = 2 enclosures.

First off Adam, as I stated before, my "beef" is not with you and the signature was NOT aimed at you. You and almost all the others here I've interacted with have been friendly and helpful. In regards to the statement about spreading false info, I wouldn't dream of doing that. I can't recall exactly where the sites were on the net, but I did talk to a herpetologist in Little Rock that said it was ok. Most recently, I spoke to a vet tech that has been raising ball pythons for 12yrs and works in a herp's clinic. He claims there is no problem with multi housing and claims he's done it the entire time he's been keeping and breeding w/o incident. I am NOT trying to discredit you nor anyone else. I am merely doing as you requested and backing the "good arguments" comment from my earlier post. What I meant by dropping it was I am not wanting to spread or start hate and discontent. I seem to be in the vast minority on the site that doesn't see a problem with it, so I will shush and let majority rule. Regardless of anything else, I love my snakes and would NEVER do anything to hurt them. I want them to be as healthy and happy as possible...which is why I got fired up when Tek implied I am not responsible and don't care for my snakes. Don't worry about your being boisterous, you are just very adament about the topic at hand which I respect.

Bringing up the topic at hand, why take chances. People may say it's "okay" to house them together. But if even only a few "experts" say keep them apart, it can cause many problems...i.e. stress, reduced growth, going off feed, cannibalism, then why insist on keeping them together? It's dangerous, reckless herping, I am sure that others could give you stats & stuff. Why risk it? Lets just say it happens 1% of the time. Both snakes ill because one got sick and the other is right there. Worse, I couldn't imagine waking up to one of my BP's missing one morning. How would you feel then? Too late! NOTHING is worth that risk!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

First off Adam, as I stated before, my "beef" is not with you

---

Never thought it was, and actually I'm quite surprised to learn that you would have a "beef" with anyone over a post on an internet message board. Just seems a little silly to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

and the signature was NOT aimed at you.

---

Again, never said it was. I was merely suggesting that your signature had powerful words that you seem not to heed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

In regards to the statement about spreading false info, I wouldn't dream of doing that.

---

So, if there is documented evidence that ball pythons can and will eat each other when housed communally and you advocate that housing multiple ball pythons in a cage is fine because "experts" you spoke with said so, aren't you in fact spreading false info? .... Last time I checked, if one of my snakes was eaten by another because I housed them communally, that would not be fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

I can't recall exactly where the sites were on the net, but I did talk to a herpetologist in Little Rock that said it was ok. Most recently, I spoke to a vet tech that has been raising ball pythons for 12yrs and works in a herp's clinic. He claims there is no problem with multi housing and claims he's done it the entire time he's been keeping and breeding w/o incident.

---

Unless you can provide names, I don't think anyone would reasonbaly consider either of your references "experts" in the husbandry of p. regius. Personally, I have 25 years of experience keeping and breeding hundreds upon hundreds of ball pythons and I certainly wouldn't consider myself an expert. Let's try this .... do you have any documentation that states that keeping multiple ball pythons in a single enclosure is a "good" husbandry practice? I have references to the contrary ....

Reptile & Amphibian Magazine Nov/Dec 1995, "Cannibalism in Ball Pythons" by Greer, Gregory C.

Vivarium Magazine Issue 5:1 "Husbandry and Breeding of Ball Pythons" by Karl Peterson

And in case you don't have those handy, here's a little online article by the Bartlett's (whom many people consider "experts") http://www.petplace.com/articles/art...sp?conID=17390

I also have a stack of periodicals at my breeding facility that have a couple of references to cannibalism in communally housed ball pythons that I'd be happy to grab when I head over there tomorrow morning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

I am NOT trying to discredit you nor anyone else.

---

Well, that's good. I think you'll learn that this is a pretty friendly site and for the most part we all play well with others here. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

What I meant by dropping it was I am not wanting to spread or start hate and discontent.

---

Well, stating untruths as fact and then "dropping it" is a pretty easy way to get people coming out of the woodwork to question you ... obviously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

I seem to be in the vast minority on the site that doesn't see a problem with it

---

And why do you think that is? Because everyone in the majority isn't too bright? There's a reason so many people on this site (and on just about every reptile message board I've ever been to) advocate 1 snake per cage. Think about it for a second.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovemyBalls

Regardless of anything else, I love my snakes and would NEVER do anything to hurt them.

---

That's obvious and I don't think anyone is questioning that ... but if you found out that you could be doing better for your snakes, wouldn't you have to do that? Even if it was only a little bit better for them?

-adam

Just too add my 2 seconds of advice.

1. Not trying to say you dont care for your snakes well but i can tell you want to do your best and there is deffinately proof that housing them seperately is better!! CANOBOLISM.
2. Also, please do whats best come on now there may be a chance that your snakes are fine but theres an even bigger chance if they are seperated and also come on they couldve easilly hooked up allready and you deffinately dont want a 9 month old girl bp preagnant.

I want to appologize for coming off as rude AND that you took it personally. But the fact of the matter is as Adam has more than layed out...ball pythons are just not able to be kept together in a healty manor no matter how you look at it.

It is not "regular practice" to put down new members, you have to understand this situation and topic and take it for what its worth. There may be alot of "oppinions" and "views" of proper husbandry but some of these folks have been doing this for "a while" and certain aspects have been worked out way past the "what may or may not" be best for the animal stage. I only hope to instill the knowledge we have now that so many people in the past had to work at to learn.

Why re-invent the wheel?

I guess I did over react...I just felt that you were accusing me of being "unfit" and to it personally. I understand that most of you have a wealth of knowledge and experience with caring for reptiles. I'm sorry if I came across as over-reacting. Perhaps we can "clean slate" and start over Tek? For what it's worth, I do respect EVERYONE'S opinion and am trying to be the best "parent" for Monty and Zut that I can. No hard feelings?

So are you gonna seperate them becasuse i think youve learned what is best.

Wow, Adam, I have to say that was well done. :worship: :judge: :yes: I am overly impressed.

I don't think anyone here meant to slam you or make you feel unwelcome. Most folks here are just very passionate about providing the best captive care possible for these lovely creatures.

For me, when it comes to the husbandry of balls it's all about providing them with environments that as closely approximate what they would naturally require in their wild state. Now considering I raise ours in Sterlite tubs, which are by their very nature an unnatural environment I feel it only proper to do what I can to provide the best care for the snakes. They have decent sized tubs in which they all live seperately with appropriate belly heat, two hides, a cool and warm side so they can thermoregulate, clean water, good prey items provided regularily and gentle handling (which I acknowledge is more for our benefit than the snakes LOL).

This gives the snakes what they need to thrive which is what I know all of us want for our precious snakes. How we each achieve that is often personal but for me anyway a large part of the husbandry decisions I and my husband continue to make are based on the wonderful sharing of information this forum provides.


~~Jo~~

No hard feelings at all...I need to look at what I post more often to make sure its not coming across the wrong way. Lots of people come to websites like this with things they have been told or learned from others and then are told they are doing things "wrong"... which of course is going to make people upset and we understand that. You have already gone above and beyond the initial stages of keeping reptiles as "pets" by joining our community :)