Plastic rubs/ tubs - Cause for concern ??

Soooooo

I've heard on the grapevine that there may be cause for concern as regards the heating of plastic rub/rubs wether it's UTH or heat /ceramic bulbs!?!?!

The suggestion is ....

Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC which have apparently been linked with Respiratory Tract Infections ( more commonly known as RI ) in snakes and other reptiles ..

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) are extremely hazardous. The EPA explains VOCs, and the dangers they pose to our health. According to the EPA, VOCs cause eye, nose and throat irritation, frequent headaches, nausea, and can also damage the liver, kidney and central nervous system .


Any thoughts , ideas , concerns or information on this topic ??

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Did they say at what temps at minimum to produce said compounds? Most keepers don't go higher than 90F. Many tubs have high melting points. If 90F is all it takes to start melting the tub, I must have been melting them and inhaling toxic air every time I touch the tubs.

I'm SO glad you brought that up. I am not a fan of PVC/plastic cages for that very reason- I don't trust the health & safety (mine OR my snakes) to constantly
heated plastics, no matter how "convenient" they may seem to be. Granted, I'm not a BP-keeper either, so glass tanks are very suitable for my snakes (mostly
colubrids) but you can also make glass tanks "work" for BPs/ & boids in general. Even more concerning to me has been the use of plastic storage bins that were
NEVER designed for living creatures (unlike the harder plastic cages) & which off-gas to the extent that is obvious even to me (a mere human) at normal room
temperatures, so I hate to think about enclosed snakes with a far better sense of smell & more importantly, a less-developed immune system & a smaller, more
fragile body, that cannot escape & are "serving a life sentence".

There have been a few threads about snakes obsessed with the air vents in their cages, & while we cannot prove it, it creeps me out on their behalf to think that
this may be what's going on. Many younger members keeping snakes have never lived in a world where plastics aren't literally everywhere, but I prefer to error
on the side of caution. Illnesses like cancer are not usually just a simple exposure but the exposure to more unhealthy things over time...and the more you can
minimize such exposure the better off you are (-not to mention the environment). Call me chicken if you like, but I think someday people will look back on this
era & say "what were you thinking!?" Proof will be a long-time coming though...it's hard enough to get funding for research on human health, let alone snakes.
I think we need to rely on common sense & apply what we do know to come up with the best methods for our non-human friends.

Have you ever brought home a plastic storage container? If you & I can smell it, it's off-gassing VOCs. Plastics are pretty much ALL very toxic, & no, you don't have to go above 90* for this to happen. The softer plastics (like storage bins are made from) are probably the worst, but you have to remember that ALL plastics degrade over time. The longer they are exposed to heat, the faster that happens. That's why the plastic "food-safe" (HDPE) containers that you microwave some frozen foods in all say "do NOT re-use"...after one use, they are breaking down & allowing unhealthy chemical exposure in our food. So what do you think happens in a plastic cage that is heated 24/7?

Those who manufacture plastics want to sell their products to the most people & for the most profits. Don't expect them to release what they most certainly know about health hazards. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/imag...s/rolleyes.png But you might ask who in government they've paid off to look the other way & bury the studies...https://ball-pythons.net/forums/imag...s/rolleyes.png

The VOC from plastic that are used in tubs is extremely low and once out gassed you would have to heat to a melting point to release toxic fumes.

PVC, used in just about every display or larger reptile cage, is another matter. PVC is the most toxic plastic there is.


PVC – the Poison Plastic

VC is the most toxic plastic for our health and environment. No other plastic contains or releases as many dangerous chemicals. These include dioxins, phthalates, vinyl chloride, ethylene dichloride, lead, cadmium, and organotins. There’s no safe way to manufacture, use or dispose of PVC productsi.


Here is the entire article. Take note of the references to studies that were done.

There is no need to heat up PVC floors, vinyl etc for the out-gassing to take place.

http://www.chej.org/pvcfactsheets/Th...n_Plastic.html


That said, there are just about hundreds of thousands of these cages out there now. I have yet to hear that people that use them end up with sick snakes. But it IS a concern.
Another reason why I love my Neodesha display cage and wish it hadn't been discontinued.

Take note, more racks are also make of PVC.

However, Glass and wood tanks can make husbandry so difficult (keeping a perfect balance of heat and humidity) that you can end up with sick snakes far quicker even, simply from substandard husbandry.

So everyone has to make a informed decision based on what seems to work for these snakes and keep them happy / healthy. Having used every form of caging there is (other then PVC display cage, but use PVC racks) I have had healthiest / happiest Ball Pythons in tubs/racks. Not to say its the only way to go, obviously.

Every method has its positives and negatives. It also needs to be taken into consideration what kind of species we're talking about. One that hides most of the time and is happiest crammed in a tight dark spot might be harder to keep happy in a large glass tank, while a species that is large and loves to be out and about, climbing and moving around a lot, might not do well in any kind of tub.

Even though this is kind of a continuation from the other thread, I'll make a point...

Water brought into your house (in any new construction) is done so via PVC pex line. Your drinking water is directly exposed to PVC.

Old houses? You pipes are copper which is soldered in lead ....pretty sure everyone knows lead is bad for you.

Plastic water bottles? Yup, plastics outgas into your water

Your keyboard, your tupperware containers, your soda/water bottles, your snake water bowls, your snake plants, your snake thermometers, the entire interior of your car.....EVERYTHING is plastic.

Bigger things to worry about in my opinion. Everything kills you if you ask someone ( sugar, carbs, salt, meat, sunlight, paper products....the list is ENDLESS) and everything is a big conspiracy if you ask the right person.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

The VOC from plastic that are used in tubs is extremely low and once out gassed you would have to heat to a melting point to release toxic fumes.

PVC, used in just about every display or larger reptile cage, is another matter. PVC is the most toxic plastic there is.


PVC – the Poison Plastic

VC is the most toxic plastic for our health and environment. No other plastic contains or releases as many dangerous chemicals. These include dioxins, phthalates, vinyl chloride, ethylene dichloride, lead, cadmium, and organotins. There’s no safe way to manufacture, use or dispose of PVC productsi.


Here is the entire article. Take note of the references to studies that were done.

There is no need to heat up PVC floors, vinyl etc for the out-gassing to take place.

http://www.chej.org/pvcfactsheets/Th...n_Plastic.html


That said, there are just about hundreds of thousands of these cages out there now. I have yet to hear that people that use them end up with sick snakes. But it IS a concern.
Another reason why I love my Neodesha display cage and wish it hadn't been discontinued.

Take note, most racks are also make of PVC.

However, Glass and wood tanks can make husbandry so difficult (keeping a perfect balance of heat and humidity) that you can end up with sick snakes far quicker even, simply from substandard husbandry.

So everyone has to make a informed decision based on what seems to work for these snakes and keep them happy / healthy. Having used every form of caging there is (other then PVC display cage, but use PVC racks) I have had healthiest / happiest Ball Pythons in tubs/racks. Not to say its the only way to go, obviously.

Every method has its positives and negatives. It also needs to be taken into consideration what kind of species we're talking about. One that hides most of the time and is happiest crammed in a tight dark spot might be harder to keep happy in a large glass tank, while a species that is large and loves to be out and about, climbing and moving around a lot, might not do well in any kind of tub.

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That's why you need to buy the metal framed racks that this snekless dude is.

I agree with you Kevin.

But being in such a relatively small space with little airflow and surrounded by out gassing is not good. But that is why we wash new tubs well and let them air out a bit, after that, no noticeable odor or gassing unless heated to a very high degree.

Same with PVC. Don't let it get burning hot.

I have found that more snakes get sick or stressed in glass tanks IF they are the kind of species that need fairly high heat AND high humidity. Not to mention lots of privacy. While it can be done, its far more difficult and often not done right.

Glass lets the cold through easily. Its more difficult to maintain correct heat and humidity, not to mention privacy.

Like I said, it CAN be done, but I see it done wrong in just about 80% or more when those tanks are used for species with those husbandry requirements. Plastic caging has now been used for many, many years. Usually in more professional setups. Some breeders keep some extremely high value collections just that way. Because it works. Not that any $20 snake isn't just as precious to its owner, but the point is, if it works for many, many years for people that take great care with their collections, then it has already proven its value and safety.

Nothing is 100%. You have to to look at the big picture and choose what works for the species and yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MR Snakes

That's why you need to buy the metal framed racks that this snekless dude is.

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The tubs in the racks are still plastic.

But I wouldn't worry about it. Those racks/tubs/cages have now been used for many, many years. And the incidents with snakes illnesses have actually gone down with the correct use of those. Because it is far easier to achieve the correct husbandry, heat/humidity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

The tubs in the racks are still plastic.

But I wouldn't worry about it. Those racks/tubs/cages have now been used for many, many years. And the incidents with snakes illnesses have actually gone down with the correct use of those. Because it is far easier to achieve the correct husbandry, heat/humidity.

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No worries as I'm one step ahead of you. Having stainless steel tubs made. Dishwasher safe and only weigh 67lbs each!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MR Snakes

No worries as I'm one step ahead of you. Having stainless steel tubs made. Dishwasher safe and only weigh 67lbs each!

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Looks like you're going to be starting a reptile rack business building racks out of metal, with casters and those metal food warming pans for tubs. ;)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

The VOC from plastic that are used in tubs is extremely low and once out gassed you would have to heat to a melting point to release toxic fumes.

PVC, used in just about every display or larger reptile cage, is another matter. PVC is the most toxic plastic there is.


PVC – the Poison Plastic

.

]


That said, there are just about hundreds of thousands of these cages out there now. I have yet to hear that people that use them end up with sick snakes. But it IS a concern.


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I did find this snippet online ..

"On tests in the UK with a number of snakes with recurring RTI, continually treated and then coming back, it was found that all were being kept in heated tubs. When treated and removed to a conventional viv and in each case the infection/issue did not reoccur. This study, still to be published in full covered common boas, royals and large carpets, of which made up the greatest number of suffering animals overall. "


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Just what is a conventional Viv ?

I believe it when I see it. Not that I doubt you, but there would be SO MANY factors that a study such as that would have to take into account, such as actual space, actual humidity, substrate or not, what kind of URI, etc etc etc.

If there was such a thing that heated tubs cause recurrent URI, then you would see a humongous, truly monumental epidemic of such. Almost every professional (and yes, good too) breeder keeps them like this. Tons of hobbyist that have a more advanced knowledge then a total beginner keep them like this. Not just in the US, but at this point, in many, many countries.

To this day, the most I have seen or heard about when it comes to snakes and such illness is 1. bad husbandry, or at least, not ideal for the species husbandry 2. infectious disease that has been passed between animals and is hard to eradicate

I never claim to know it all. So don't get me wrong. With all those years and all those animals being kept in those cages (PVC cages, tubs, racks, etc) you would certainly have problems of a much larger scale if the material is what caused the issue.

There are also countless birds, rodents and other animals that are being kept in some form of plastic cage, or cages that have plastic components to them. Many dogs spent hours or nights in their plastic crate, as that is their safe spot.

"Heated" reptile cages that are heated for let's say Ball Pythons, Boas, Carpets are NOT heated to any kind of high degree whatsoever. Cats and dogs run hotter then that when they lay in their crate, and that is just their body heat heating the plastic.

I just see it as mostly fear mongering.

I get that some people are die hard "display cage" only. Or glass only. I get that some say/think other options are cruel or whatever. But the proof always lies in the pudding. It works for the animals.
You have to get something that works for you as well. That may be different for everybody. And as long as the animal doesn't suffer for it, by all means, people should use what they like.

There is more then one way to skin a cat.

I'd like to know more about the testing factors and controls.

Personally, I've been keeping various snakes in plastic tubs and enclosures for over 20 years and haven't had any issues or recurring RIs*


*my only recurring RI was an elderly corn in the late 90s, vet said immune system was shot due to his age, he was housed in a glass tank

Why do I have a feeling that this will be the new thing for people to use when they are against tubs? Kinda like posting graphic pics when you feed live :rolleyes:

If there was an increase of RI or increase of premature death among people who keep snakes in tubs, this would be known by now and people would move away from those because for some it is their livelihood.

People have been keeping snakes in tubs for over 2 decades now.......yet nothing.

Personally I have kept snakes in tubs for 13 years and have never had a snake with a RI

Ironically most keepers who post on this very forum and experience RI actually keep their snake in tanks :confusd:

The key here is it's a non issue and RI are not caused by plastic tubs however poor husbandry, poor ventilation and stress will do the trick regardless of the enclosure and some people cannot make it work no matter what the enclosure.

To be fair it's the first I'd heard/ read about this subject and just felt it was worth sharing with everyone ..

I'm more than happy to drop this and just wait and see how things develop with the ongoing study - it's driven by a guy working in the reptile world who's a Bioscientist (MRSB) in the science and technology field .... who also keeps Royal pythons and has now stopped using plastic rubs/tubs and has removed all plastic / resin bowls and hides as well .


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

To be fair it's the first I'd heard/ read about this subject and just felt it was worth sharing with everyone ..

I'm more than happy to drop this and just wait and see how things develop with the ongoing study - it's driven by a guy working in the reptile world who's a Bioscientist (MRSB) in the science and technology field .... who also keeps Royal pythons and has now stopped using plastic rubs/tubs and has removed all plastic / resin bowls and hides as well .


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Nothing wrong with sharing it at all :)

If just falls a bit flat when those very methods have been proven to be so successful and hundreds of thousands of healthy animals. To make a study that will be worth the while it will take many, many years and many, many factors.

I can't help to wonder, has he also stopped drinking water out of pipes, bottles. Does he go to a spring and carry his drinking/bathing/toilet water in wooden/metal buckets to the house? Has he stopped living in a house where almost every part of it has some form of plastic or otherwise questionable product built in to it? Does he live in a hut made of hay and clay?
You see where I'm going with that.

So what will he use for water bowls...metal (can have issues) ceramics (can have issues) a hollow rock (which surely leaches some mineral or other)

I'm not against studies to keep animals safer. Not at all. But I wish they were done on yet unproven methods, newer methods, questionable methods. To spend years and a myriad of animals and scenarios to prove that animals don't do well in plastic enclosures, when they have done well for many years ?? Again, reptiles are by far not the only ones kept in some sort of plastic at those kind of temperatures.

But if that is what he wants to do, by all means :)

For such a study to work, it has to be controlled, all the time, all the animals, over years.

For example HE will have to keep a large number of animals that all came from the same place or method or raising, from healthy parents, from the same breeder. He will have to quarantine ALL of them. Away from one another. To make sure he starts on a clean slate.

Than ALL of those animals will need to kept in the same exact tub setup. Actually he will need a few different tub setups, but a large number of animals for each kind of setup. He will also have to keep a large number of animals from the same group, bred and raised the same way, quarantined the same way, in glass tanks or whatever he says cures animals. Again, in a few different setups.

Then..he will have to feed that very large number of animals the same way, in the same area, same everything (aside from their actual setup). For years. Then....IF some of the "tub" animals get sick, they will need to be tested. And treated. All the same. Then returned to the tubs. If they will get sick again (re-current) they will all have to be tested. Treated. Returned to tub.

THEN..if those same animals get sick AGAIN, they need to be tested, treated and then set up in the different glass viv setups. Then, if ALL those animals that got sick over and over again, in the different tub setups (mind you, correctly set up ones) suddenly miraculously get better (tested over a long period) he may have a point.

I doubt he did any such thing, though.

Meanwhile you have countless of breeders and hobbyist that have kept hundreds of thousands of snakes in tubs and, oh wonder, they do just fine. Usually far better then the ones kept in glass tanks.

But again, tubs can be done wrong, glass tanks can be done right. Not saying thats not true.

Just saying that I doubt very seriously that he has done any kind of valid study, because that would involve years of carefully set up places and monitoring. On a very large and extremely strict scale.

Most likely he got sick animals from people. They kept them in tubs. Probably incorrectly set up tubs, or incorrect husbandry. He then put them in glass tanks under HIS supervision, meaning set up right, and voila. Animal gets better.

I have a feeling this is all about husbandry done wrong and husbandry done right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

For such a study to work, it has to be controlled, all the time, all the animals, over years.

For example HE will have to keep a large number of animals that all came from the same place or method or raising, from healthy parents, from the same breeder. He will have to quarantine ALL of them. Away from one another. To make sure he starts on a clean slate.

Than ALL of those animals will need to kept in the same exact tub setup. Actually he will need a few different tub setups, but a large number of animals for each kind of setup. He will also have to keep a large number of animals from the same group, bred and raised the same way, quarantined the same way, in glass tanks or whatever he says cures animals. Again, in a few different setups.

Then..he will have to feed that very large number of animals the same way, in the same area, same everything (aside from their actual setup). For years. Then....IF some of the "tub" animals get sick, they will need to be tested. And treated. All the same. Then returned to the tubs. If they will get sick again (re-current) they will all have to be tested. Treated. Returned to tub.

THEN..if those same animals get sick AGAIN, they need to be tested, treated and then set up in the different glass viv setups. Then, if ALL those animals that got sick over and over again, in the different tub setups (mind you, correctly set up ones) suddenly miraculously get better (tested over a long period) he may have a point.

I doubt he did any such thing, though.

Meanwhile you have countless of breeders and hobbyist that have kept hundreds of thousands of snakes in tubs and, oh wonder, they do just fine. Usually far better then the ones kept in glass tanks.

But again, tubs can be done wrong, glass tanks can be done right. Not saying thats not true.

Just saying that I doubt very seriously that he has done any kind of valid study, because that would involve years of carefully set up places and monitoring. On a very large and extremely strict scale.

Most likely he got sick animals from people. They kept them in tubs. Probably incorrectly set up tubs, or incorrect husbandry. He then put them in glass tanks under HIS supervision, meaning set up right, and voila. Animal gets better.

I have a feeling this is all about husbandry done wrong and husbandry done right.

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He says he carrying on with the study , don't think he's scaremongering, just sharing his findings thus far which seems reasonable enough tbh .

With him being an experienced bioscientist/biochemist I dare say he knows a thing or two about fair testing etc etc .. so I don't share your views on the way he may of reached his opinion .


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Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

Looks like you're going to be starting a reptile rack business building racks out of metal, with casters and those metal food warming pans for tubs. ;)

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Looking into making them out of lead. You know, so they won't blow away in a windstorm.