Rescue/Rehome of 2 BPs

I got a message from a good friend a few weeks ago that they have a family member who needed to rehome their 2 ball pythons. They hit a rough patch financially and with a baby on the way, couldn't keep the snakes anymore.

So, last night we did a 5 hour round trip drive to pick up the 2 snakes. From what we were told, they are both 2018 babies and less than 2 feet long. One male (pending a double-check), a bit older and the one they had first, is supposedly an enchi (not sure how they got him to know how reliable that ID). And one much smaller female (also pending a check), a normal.

In the pictures I was sent initially, the little female looked maybe a little thin and had stuck shed. Not super surprising, especially since it is winter and they're likely a bit too busy making ends meet to mist or what have you. Seemed pretty simple to fix, also.

We got them home last night and set them up in the QT rack. Each is in it's own 12qt tub (container store mens shoe box, AP rack) with hides and a water bowl, on PAM treated paper towels. Neither has visible mites. Temps 75 cool to 88-90 hot spot via temp gun w/ith herpstat tstat. Didn't remember to add the hygrometers last night, but past testing of those tubs with those bowls last week puts humidity at 60%+ normally and I lightly misted the paper towels for the girl with stuck shed, likely above 70-80% based on wall moisture, etc. I'll get an accurate number after work tonight for reference.

The "enchi" is 163 grams, looks perfectly healthy. Normal behavior except being a bit chilly from the car ride home. No real worries about this guy. If anyone who is familiar with enchi can chime in if this may be a low-quality enchi, nice normal, or something else, that would be great. I'm not so good at IDing subtle morphs and not sure what their source for calling it an enchi is.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5376250b8c.jpg

I'm told that he is very bright and orange right after a shed. The lighting in the picture is decent for coloring, I think, but not perfect.



The girl however weighs 87 grams and looks quite dehydrated and had all the shed stuck except the belly and a chunk near the head. I don't have a picture of it now, but her not visible eye in the picture looks like the eyecap is half off. Just the 6 hours she was with us last night the shed moistened and seems to be coming off pretty easily on its own, so that should resolve itself. I'm keeping a close eye on the head area in case that stays stuck.

She also acted fairly lethargic after warming up overnight (we got home late at 1am so I did the more thorough once-over briefly this morning). These pics are without and with flash after being with us overnight.
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ddc4fb25f2.jpg

She is definitely underweight and dehydrated...

My biggest concern is that she doesn't seem to flick her tongue out beyond the very tips. When I noticed, I listened closely for sounds in her breathing and external signs of RI (mucous, bubbles, saliva, etc ) and found none of those. I didn't have time before work to check inside her mouth and didn't want to stress her too much. Is there another reason besides possible birth defect that may be the culprit of only flicking the very tips of her tongue out?

They were housed together in 1 tub for at least the last few weeks. I'm not sure how feeding was done re: separating or not, etc. I'm told the boy eats frozen and the girl ate live, but if they were in the tub to feed together, her skinny appearance could be explained by the boy getting both meals for a few weeks...

SO. Here's a summary of the questions I've got:
1 - Does the male look enchi (1st pic)? If not, normal or another morph?

2 - Are there any other visible signs I didn't spot on the girl? (Definitely dehydrated, fairly thin, stuck shed)
Any signs I should check/watch for?

3 - Would you prioritize settling in or the stuck shed being removed?
She seemed pretty stressed, so I'd like to leave it for 5 or 7 days, feed once, and either mess with it after that or let the next shed/her rubbing it off in higher humidity fix it. The eyecap looks like she could rub it off in the higher humidity and if not could be gently taken off later on.

4 - at this level of dehydration and size, what size meal would you try for meal #1? I don't want to stress her too much with a big meal right away. I was thinking a hopper/small weaned mouse in the 12 gram range to start and bump up if she handles it well.

My current plan is:
Give them 5 to 7 days to settle in with a once daily visual check (open tub for max 10 seconds to check for waste, worsening condition if they are visible without moving hides, and water changing).

Offer a meal probably Friday (if not Sunday) - planning to gauge which day based on interest levels when other snakes meals are thawing

2 days after, pick the girl up to check again for RI sounds and lethargy/tongue flicks for 2 or 3 minutes. If anything is going on, I want to catch it quick so we can get a vet on the culture/antibiotics if needed. If no issues and the tongue behavior is normal, I'll leave her be for the following 2-3 feeds.

Feed again 7 days later, etc.

For reference, they are in QT in a separate room, etc.

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You have a great handle on the situation.

I would bump the temperature on the cool side to 80 degrees.

If both snakes came from the same person/group: the fact that one is in much better condition than the other suggests that there is an issue with the snake with the stuck shed. My guess would be that she is a non-eater and probably still requires assist feeding (that hasn't been performed by the previous owners).

1. The male does not look Enchi to me. I see traits that are sort of Enchi-ish (minimal blushing/odd banding), but, not quite.
2. I would watch for blood in urates or constipation indicating a blockage.
3. I would place a large water bowl partly over the UTH, and let her settle in. For the shed: I would toss her in the water bowl daily until she gets the shed off. I wouldn't force her to soak in the water or try and pull off the shed.
4. I would offer her a live mouse hopper (once her shed is off). If she refused: I would kill the mouse and assist feed.

These are all just suggestions based on the information presented: Best of Luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

You have a great handle on the situation.

I would bump the temperature on the cool side to 80 degrees.

If both snakes came from the same person/group: the fact that one is in much better condition than the other suggests that there is an issue with the snake with the stuck shed. My guess would be that she is a non-eater and probably still requires assist feeding (that hasn't been performed by the previous owners).

1. The male does not look Enchi to me. I see traits that are sort of Enchi-ish (minimal blushing/odd banding), but, not quite.
2. I would watch for blood in urates or constipation indicating a blockage.
3. I would place a large water bowl partly over the UTH, and let her settle in. For the shed: I would toss her in the water bowl daily until she gets the shed off. I wouldn't force her to soak in the water or try and pull off the shed.
4. I would offer her a live mouse hopper (once her shed is off). If she refused: I would kill the mouse and assist feed.

These are all just suggestions based on the information presented: Best of Luck!

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Thanks for the suggestions and the vote of confidence! This is the first one I've had to deal with that came with more than a shed-in-transit situation, so the reassurance is good.

The cool temp is the best I can manage while it is so cold outside with what I have available. It is probably more like 75 night & 77 day, but those numbers were from last night. That room fluctuates a bit day to night, so I imagine that same 2 degree flux will happen to the tubs. All my other heat equipment is tied up with my main group because yay winter. I'll see if hanging a blanket/towel down the front holds in more heat since the rest is already enclosed for a few days and if not see if I can get another heat source to add. It would be ideal to avoid CHE, since it really does dry out our house and would be a bad combo for a girl who already had the stuck shed issues.

I'm not sure how long they had the female for, the male they've had 4+ months I think, but the girl less. They said she always sheds bad in same conditions as the boy, so I assume they had her for 2 sheds minimum. So maybe as little as a month. I'd guess probably 2 months & 3 sheds? Can't be sure though, and one of them was in the last week.

They don't have a reason to lie on if she was eating or not, so I'm pretty sure she is taking the live, but I will definitely take that into consideration. I'm guessing they may have been giving her mouse hoppers or fuzzies to explain the lower weight, or the boy stealing her meals. I've not needed to assist feed, so I'm really hopeful she will go for it on her own. If not, I have seen video guides and have a decent idea what needs to be done.

I'm not counting on either being morphs and after his next shed, I will see if I can get good pics of the coloring then. If he is a normal, then he's got some really nice gold coloration. I'll probably put them up in a morph ID thread once I get better ones and see what everyone else thinks too.

From the state of her shed after 6 hours in the humid tub (just slightly damp paper towels and a water bowl), it was very soft and some of it wiped off on my hand when I examined her in the morning, so I think it will come off on it's own pretty easily. I will watch for her waste, though I don't think she has any saved up, so may not see anything till her next meal.

Do you think it is possible her tongue flick/lack of it coming fully out of her mouth could be just stress or being cool from the car ride last night? Or is that just wishful thinking? I'm really hoping it isn't anything super serious, the poor baby.

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could u post pix of their bellies? the first one could be Enchi, but a very low quality one. it's currently dull (but orange after shed?), has lotsa dots but enough pattern reduction and fade from the belly that makes me think Enchi. also the girl has a light triangle "head stamp" blushing.

u can raise the temps by putting them in a smaller tub. reducing the volume of air might help increase temps.

i don't think the tongue thing is a birth defect. i remember an noob keeper thought that about her snake and the "controversy". see here: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...Disabled-Snake and u know what, it turned out fine. full tongue and the snake started eating. i just think she's stressed and needs more time to adjust to her new surroundings and needs to get back to normal - size, shed and feeding - and that tongue will be flicking at full length.

anyways good job on the rescue/rehome and i wish u guys the best!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ax01

could u post pix of their bellies? the first one could be Enchi, but a very low quality one. it's currently dull (but orange after shed?), has lotsa dots but enough pattern reduction and fade from the belly that makes me think Enchi. also the girl has a light triangle "head stamp" blushing.

u can raise the temps by putting them in a smaller tub. reducing the volume of air might help increase temps.

i don't think the tongue thing is a birth defect. i remember an noob keeper thought that about her snake and the "controversy". see here: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...Disabled-Snake and u know what, it turned out fine. full tongue and the snake started eating. i just think she's stressed and needs more time to adjust to her new surroundings and needs to get back to normal - size, shed and feeding - and that tongue will be flicking at full length.

anyways good job on the rescue/rehome and i wish u guys the best!

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I'll see if I can get a few belly pics tonight or tomorrow after work and maybe the boy's other side. If I remember correctly, one side had more dots than the other, though the banding is definitely not a great example if he is.. I didn't think to take any other pictures and they were not cooperative for photo time to start with with only 1 hand. I'm hesitant to do today since I've already had to mess with them twice in 24 hrs, so I'll see how they look after work and decide then.

I don't know for sure that he is dull right now. It sounds like he shed 2, maybe 3 weeks ago? They weren't super specific. If he sheds every month/4 weeks, he may he starting to go dull again, but hard to say. How bright he gets is based on their subjective evaluation right now... time will tell. Thanks for the thoughts!

They seemed pretty sure the girl was a normal, but I did see the head stamp too. She's very non-gold in color, even where the shed is peeled off, so not likely to be fire or any of those. It looks like a very flat beige on brown. I'm not familiar enough with the dark/subtle morphs to have any idea. I'll try to get a few shots of her when the shed is out of the way too.

They are both in the smallest tubs I've got that I can rig good heat for, roughly 12 quarts, the smallest size the Animal Plastics racks take. Roughly 10"×14"
https://www.containerstore.com/s/our...s%20shoe%20box

My other option is standalone 6 qt tubs, but those would have ambients of 72-73 with the equipment I have on hand. The enclosed rack holds a few degrees higher as-is so I figured that was best.

I'll probably try to assist the temps by replacing the water daily with 80+ degree water and that should help some too. The warmer the water that evaporates, the warmer the air will be, at least briefly. And add the blanket down the front to trap more heat.

I'll check that thread in a minute. I wasn't really suggesting a birth defect here, just looking for alternatives to the usual RI (due to her lack of symptoms) and it was the only thing that came to mind as an alternative. I didn't know stress could cause that kind of reaction, so yeah, I would be that is it. Being smothered by the boy for a while and transported in a car for 3 hrs after... I would be stressed out! An SUV isn't a super smooth ride.

Thanks a bunch for taking the time to reply.

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Got home to find that the girl managed to get about 90% of the shed off on her own, no problems. Only bit left is the bottom side from the vent down to the tip of her tail and the top side of her tail about half way down.
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She looks infinitely better already and looks a lot less dehydrated. No visible wrinkles that don't just feel like loose skin and no denting on the eye caps.
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She's already proving much braver than the boy, though she is very sluggish about moving her back half, I think just weak from lack of food or something. She did grip my wrist and such, but manipulating most of her almost feels like a wet noodle compared to the last BP I've held at her size (my pied about 2 months ago was 60 grams). It is much better than it was this morning in that she grips more, moves better, and is less limp feeling.

Full body shot.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3ffd1d3889.jpg

I did grab a few pictures of her belly, Ax, so lemme know what you think. Kinda looks like the yellow belly markers from videos I've seen describing it (and she is much brighter than I expected from the areas she didn'thave stuck shed) but I'm awful at IDing that..

Don't mind the lighting, the light is super yellow when I catch the picture in shadow and makes everything look really dark/orange/pink.. all these pics are the same lighting and the full body shot is most true to color. You can tell the color is off by how red my hand looks! I promise her belly is perfectly fine/not burned and is a nice white/off white per normal.
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Finally, got a shot of her tiny tongue flicks. This is about as far as I've seen it come out, but her pattern seemed much more "happy tongue flick" than the nervous and scared ones I've seen across my other 3 BPs when they were young and nervous. (Also, very much enthusiastic to get to/check out the camera. Got lucky on a non-blurry one!)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e797f5b6c8.jpg

Coming home to her looking like this was a major relief. She's looking 200% better than last night with the super wrinkly shed and dehydration.

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I adjusted the color balance on the 2 belly shots to get it closer to real life. They're still a little pink, but look my more true to life here.

This one turned out most realistic
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ca30c3d411.jpg

This one is still a bit pink.. best I can do with what I've got.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f760097fc6.jpg

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wow she looks so much better already! IMO there will be full tongue flicking soon and hopefully a meal to follow.

no, not YB. the belly tracks would be busier and look much different from that. i think she just might be het for something, maybe a Normal het Pied.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ax01

wow she looks so much better already! IMO there will be full tongue flicking soon and hopefully a meal to follow.

no, not YB. the belly tracks would be busier and look much different from that. i think she just might be het for something, maybe a Normal het Pied.

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Alright. I just remembered that there was something to do with belly markings for yellow belly. I never really have been able to visualize what that would look like since none of mine have the morph and I never planned to buy one. I'm not too fussed by morph or not, but it is good to know she looks normal after all. If I do breed, I suppose I could test for pied.. my male spider is a proven 100% het pied (not by me, though). Oh well, that's years away, if ever.

She is much more interested and curious than most of the other BPs and much more so than her "brother". She pokes out of her hide like my corns do when I slide open the tub to peek or change water. I'm leaving the boy alone until he has eaten based on his much more shy behavior (and lack of any stuck shed, etc.).

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So far, so good. I helped the girl get her stuck shed off her tail down to the last 3 scales worth that just wouldn't catch the edge of the damp paper towel earlier in the week. I think I'll leave it be and see how it goes on her next shed and keep an eye on that.

I offered both of them a meal last night, both live, since I wasn't too sure on the prior owner's word in if the male ate frozen. I picked up a hopper mouse and a fuzzy rat, both primarily for the girl. If she didn't grab the hopper, I'd leave the fuzzy overnight even though she was eating mice.. safer for her. Instead she hunted and snagged the hopper in under 60 seconds and despite her weakness being handled, she had it over with very fast. Definitely had the strength for a larger size and if she doesn't regurge I will probably jump her up to small adult/weaned mice where she really should be to help her fill out more. I pulled a dumb and forgot to weigh the feeders, but ballpark, I would put the hopper around 10-11g and the fuzzy around 12-13g. The hopper was maybe 3/4ths her girth, despite how thin she is.

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With how she reacted and how not-shy she was over eating, I'll pick up a live mouse and offer her a F/T first. Worst case, I swap back to live. Best case, she takes frozen and the weaned mouse can be pre-killed and offered to the boy (who was eating f/t I was told).

The boy got offered the fuzzy rat live, in part because it is harmless to him and to see what he did with a rat (i.e. if he would take rats). He took it, but took much longer to constrict it hard enough so it stopped moving; definitely a sign of one used to dead prey, I think. He also spent half the time waiting for it to be brought near him like you would offer frozen before pursuing the live rat. Pretty sad to watch how long he took, but he ate and ate a rat with gusto. Probably will thaw him a small rat pup or a bigger fuzzy since he is bordering a size up and that was also quite the small meal, maybe 2/3rds his thickness. Since he took a live rat and is supposed to have taken F/T, he should be good to go for f/t rats next time.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6752431e70.jpg

As of 24 hours after the meal, neither has regurged.


Also, got a few pics of the boy and his belly. Much harder to get by myself than the girl as he is shy and very prone to balling up still.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d540aacd84.jpg

This one gets pretty close to his cloaca in the frame. I know tmit isn't the easiest to tell what part the belly is showing.
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Looks like you are on the right track! Semper Fi.

Firstly, good job on the rescue! I've rescued a few myself and it seems like yours are well on their way to being happy healthy noodles.

Secondly, I wanted to drop in my .02 about morph ID on these two. The larger of the 2 does show some enchi traits, but if he is, it's really low expression of the gene.

The little one IMHO is a pastel or fire, the distortion in the pattern and color scream pastel to me from my monitor, but she also has the characteristic flaming on her sides like a fire. Only time will tell to see if her blacks on her back will blush out at all, and that'll prove some sort of lightening gene.

But either way she's definitely not just a normal.

Is she flicking her tongue normally now? The only thing I thought of is the BP that was shipped to me years ago with a glottis infection that affected (pretty
much stopped) the tongue-flick. You could see a tiny bulge under the chin/upper neck also, where the infection was...like he had an 'adam's apple'.

Looks like you got both of these in time for a good recovery! :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RXLReptiles

Firstly, good job on the rescue! I've rescued a few myself and it seems like yours are well on their way to being happy healthy noodles.

Secondly, I wanted to drop in my .02 about morph ID on these two. The larger of the 2 does show some enchi traits, but if he is, it's really low expression of the gene.

The little one IMHO is a pastel or fire, the distortion in the pattern and color scream pastel to me from my monitor, but she also has the characteristic flaming on her sides like a fire. Only time will tell to see if her blacks on her back will blush out at all, and that'll prove some sort of lightening gene.

But either way she's definitely not just a normal.

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Thanks. They're doing pretty well so far. Both have peed (multiple times) and the boy left a gift for me after they ate Friday, lol.

I'm gonna get pics on the boy after his next shed, but I'm leaning toward nice normal right now... if he has it, it is definitely not a great example.

For the girl, I don't think pastel. Her browns seem to dark overall for that, though I did wonder a bit on fire. I'm awful at IDing it, so wasn't going to suggest it. Same as the boy, I will grab more/better pics for an ID later after a shed and when she starts filling back out.

Thanks for the input!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Is she flicking her tongue normally now? The only thing I thought of is the BP that was shipped to me years ago with a glottis infection that affected (pretty
much stopped) the tongue-flick. You could see a tiny bulge under the chin/upper neck also, where the infection was...like he had an 'adam's apple'.

Looks like you got both of these in time for a good recovery! :gj:

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I have been leaving them alone more since they ate on Friday, I got sick over the weekend, and I want them to settle in better, so they've only been out minutes at a time for cleaning and such, but she was still only partially flicking on Sunday for the minute she was out. It did seem to be coming out further, I could see the fork and not just the tips, but not fully out either. I think it's just stress for her, luckily.
No bulges at all or odd lumps anywhere on her, just some oddly lose feeling skin from what I guess is the weight loss she had at some point.

She was only at the house for what sounded like a short time, 2 months I'd guess, maybe 3, and was cohabbed for at least several weeks with a 2x or more larger male... not a calm experience for her. The tub was probably a 16-18 qt tub, just 1 very open commercial hide big enough for both of them and a water bowl.
Hide looked kind of like this with the smaller opening into the tub, the left corner part was in the corner of the tub.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...aec099d75f.jpg


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Both of them took a 2nd meal with no problems. Both got offered a live fuzzy rat. The girl took it with no hesitation even though she had been on mice before. Next time I'm going to feed Monday to get them on schedule with the rest of mine for simplicity and do weekly from there.

I'll be trying the boy on frozen rat fuzzies on the next meal since he had been on frozen mice and has been taking rats, so that should work out fine, he has the reactions of a strong feeder so far. I'll probably give the girl a few more live before swapping so she doesn't have to skip any meals until her weight is better, although she has a killer food response and would probably take it okay.

After their next meal I'll work on some better lighting pictures and such.

Also, the boy seems to ADORE peeing in his tub. I've had to swap his paper towels almost every other day it feels like... and both times he has peed within 12 hours of a meal. I don't think it is a cause for concern since he's in good body shape, but jeez is he making it tough to leave him alone to settle in. I set him on top of the rack for 30 seconds to swap the towels and wipe out the bin and he took a swing at my face, lol. Nowhere near landing a hit, but the poor guy is definitely the more nervous one of the two. He makes the little girl seem like a curious labrador by comparison.

Oh. And anyone who has name suggestions, chime in!
It is a bit tiring to call them "girl" and "boy", but I haven't got any other ideas right now.

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I can confirm tonight that the girls tongue is capable of coming out all the way! Only about half the time, but mostly she just flicks at things super close now. When reaching in open air to sniff things, she can and did get it out fully several times tonight, so that's a relief.

Also, got tagged by the boy.. he did not want me to scoop him up to return to his bin when I had to clean out his tub again. This one poops like clockwork so far. 36-48 hrs after a meal. Nothing too bad on the bite, wiped off to nothing at all. Example of a 160-ish gram BP bite!
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I predict you'll make a full recovery. ;) Wonder why he pees so often though? He'll probably calm down in time...it's all so new to him yet.

Looks like you're the best thing to ever happen to these two snakes. :gj:

BTW, about that BP with a glottis infection, the other tip off was the tongue tips were stuck together, & since you're not seeing that, I'd bet your gal is just
weak & will get her strength back fully with all your TLC. Sure hope so. It's lucky that she's so willing to eat, that's most of the battle right there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I predict you'll make a full recovery. ;) Wonder why he pees so often though? He'll probably calm down in time...it's all so new to him yet.

Looks like you're the best thing to ever happen to these two snakes. :gj:

BTW, about that BP with a glottis infection, the other tip off was the tongue tips were stuck together, & since you're not seeing that, I'd bet your gal is just
weak & will get her strength back fully with all your TLC. Sure hope so. It's lucky that she's so willing to eat, that's most of the battle right there.

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It's only been a few times he has peed, but it always is after I swap the paper towels because he pooped or something.. I think it has been like 2x each week? Not too surprising for now if he hadn't had reliable water and is drinking while he has it. He just always goes right after feeding. Lol.

I went into it expecting them to be in much better shape, just some winter stuck shed for the one, but guess I was too optimistic that this person knew what to do.

Yeah, hers has always come out split, just not always fully out. Watching her today, I think it is a shyness reaction, though she doesn't ball up at all. She is still pretty weak at moving around (best description of her strength is like a "wet noodle" imo) and her scales on her belly just seem flimsy. I think some is just baby scales are softer and makes it seem so much worse, but they are feeling better with the higher humidity and as she's eaten.

She has a better food response than the boy, though neither is at all refusing or hesitant. Drop live in and she's on it in a flash. He prefers waiting for an ambush, lol. I'll bet hers transitions over to frozen well, but waiting on her to gain strength and weight before I do. Squeezing on live is probably pretty good for helping build back the muscle mass it feels like she's missing.

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Things are still going pretty good. No new pics this time.

The boy is a very good weight, so we are trying to swap him onto frozen. He was a no-go last week, but we'll try again. He struck and coiled a few times, but dropped it and always did 2 or 3 initial defensive strikes before grabbing. He's much more freaked out by me being nearby. Didn't eat it left overnight either.

I've kept the girl on live for now. It seems to be helping her build some muscle to constrict it and she eats every time with it. After her last meal, she has looked pretty bloated, so I've done 2 short soaks in warm water and got her to drop some urates. That helped some, but she wouldn't poop. (It looks like she really needs to at this point.) I'll probably do 1 more soak and leave it for a meal and digesting (close to a week) and see if she gets it herself after the next meal. (Or if she's holding it for a shed... ya never know.)

My pied was fairly shy like she acts in the tub and refused to poop without the warm water bath for the first 12 weeks and 2 sheds that we had her (crossing that milestone was a relief), so I think it may be similar.

She looks surprisingly dully colored, so she might be heading for a shed already, but it is hard to tell. I probably won't know for sure until she goes blue for the first shed. It has been 3 and a half weeks that I've had them now, so if she does monthly then it would he coming up. She was fairly dull colored compared to the boy even right after we got her stuck shed off, so I'm not sure if I'm seeing that difference or her actually being dull.

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While I advocate f/t, I'd keep the female on live too for now..."whatever works" rather than have her go off-feed.

I think you might be feeding her too often if she's not defecating: remember that a starved snake is likely to have deficient digestive enzymes too, so her digestion
is apt to be slower than a healthy snake. I know how badly you want her to gain weight (I know I would) but it might be best to slow down just a little.

All in all though they're doing great with you- & lucky BPs! :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

While I advocate f/t, I'd keep the female on live too for now..."whatever works" rather than have her go off-feed.

I think you might be feeding her too often if she's not defecating: remember that a starved snake is likely to have deficient digestive enzymes too, so her digestion
is apt to be slower than a healthy snake. I know how badly you want her to gain weight (I know I would) but it might be best to slow down just a little.

All in all though they're doing great with you- & lucky BPs! :gj:

---

I don't know how fast you think I'm feeding her, but I think you're missing some of the info. I don't think 7 days apart aiming for 10%/slightly smaller than her girth is pushing it too fast.

The bigger issue I have is my live source is inconsistent what sizes they have available. She got a mouse last time because their mom rats killed everything smaller than a large pup and they didn't have anything in between fuzzy mice and adult mice. She takes either one eagerly, but they don't seem to get enough of the baby BP size feeders each week.

I'm not that great at remembering what I've said, but I did go to 7 days except that first 5 day interval and haven't done shorter than that.

That last one was a bit bigger than I wanted to offer her, but not over 15% and due to the sausage butt from it last Monday, I skipped feeding at 7 days and am targeting 11 days, this Friday (also hoping they re-stock closer to that date for better sizes available).

I'm not sure how often you expect her to poop, lol.. of my 3 other BPs I raised from her size, I haven't had one poop more often than she is. She did poop before this last bigger meal from the ones before it.

The original short interval was largely because of how small the meal was since the first was just to test if she digests anything okay or not. It was less than half her girth, even skinny like she was.. a 6g hopper mouse (tiny, but very hoppy).

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If she wasn't a starved snake, 7 days apart for feeding is fine. I'm just saying that snakes need protein & nutrient intake to maintain their digestive enzymes that are
lost when they're starved of food. Digestion can be a bigger challenge, so feeding smaller &/or less often than normal might be a good idea...just food for thought, &
I was going by what you posted.

Yeah, I get that. Though I am pretty sure her case wasn't starvation (complete lack of food). More likely that it was from long term pinky/fuzzy mouse feedings instead. They were both fed 2 days before I picked them up; no reason to doubt that, though no idea what size. I figure that would make a big difference on the enzyme front. No food vs just small food.

Also... got home and got confirmation that she did go into shed. I'd be willing to bet she is holding it in for that. She's gone blue today, lol. Definitely not offering her food till she sheds, so that will probably be a good 2 week gap this time, maybe 2.5 weeks depending how quickly she sheds.

Flash:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f7828f0916.jpg

No Flash:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c17ee98cf8.jpg

Neither is really great for her real life color.

Got a pic of the boy too.
No flash:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a998b67628.jpg

Flash:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...aa2c22f276.jpg

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She actually looks like a whole different snake than your first photos. :gj:
Hope the male settles down now too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

She actually looks like a whole different snake than your first photos. :gj:
Hope the male settles down now too.

---

Yeah, she improved a LOT very quickly. Part of why I think her issue was less a complete lack of food and more just small or inconsistent food; they don't bounce back this easily if it's that bad.

She will probably drop one hell of a poop after this shed though. I'm really hoping her scales start feeling less flimsy after a shed also, it is a really weird feeling how they are even out of shed. Almost like a faux-snakeskin combined with the sort of brittle "in shed" belly scale sensation? I don't even know if that's a good description of it. Pretty sure that part is from her dehydration since it has improved over time. The shed should help since she has had good water and humidity here.

He's just small and shy, I think. They've both only been offered 3 meals and he refused #3, the first try on frozen, so I'm not handling a lot; pretty much just to swap the paper towels out. I expect he will calm out a lot by 300-400g. My banana was fairly shy at this size, though no strikes, and he got much braver about then.

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Mini-Update.

The girl has shed and pooped, as expected. She looks a good deal better than she did nearly a month ago.

Got a few pictures in natural, if cloudy, light through a window. Pics were all before she pooped (on the table...) so she does still look a bit bloated down near the tail in these. She looks perfectly normal now she has gone, but didn't stop for pictures with the cleanup.

First a re-post of her "before" picture:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c2765545d0.jpg


And now some current ones:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c069516625.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f34d1efac0.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...280eb09cda.jpg

She even gave a full one piece shed. :)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5d9d20bd67.jpg

She now weighs 112 grams, up from her initial 87 grams. She's getting a small rat fuzzy tonight.

(With the better pictures and lighting, are we still leaning toward this just being a normal?)


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After seeing her now, I'm leaning more towards Fire. If you hop on to WOB and check the pics in the morph list some of them are an awfully close resemblance. But seeing as how there is such a huge variance in patterning on "normal" ball pythons she could just be a really cool looking normal. You may never know unless she breeds.

Same with the male. Could be low expression Enchi or Orange Dream based on the coloration in the above pics. Or he could just be a really pretty normal boy. With age he may change and look more or less normal, but again I don't think you'll know unless you breed him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RXLReptiles

After seeing her now, I'm leaning more towards Fire. If you hop on to WOB and check the pics in the morph list some of them are an awfully close resemblance. But seeing as how there is such a huge variance in patterning on "normal" ball pythons she could just be a really cool looking normal. You may never know unless she breeds.

Same with the male. Could be low expression Enchi or Orange Dream based on the coloration in the above pics. Or he could just be a really pretty normal boy. With age he may change and look more or less normal, but again I don't think you'll know unless you breed him.

---

I'm pretty much just going with "normal", though I o wonder if there is there a "surefire" way to prove out enchi or orange dream? Or is it just one where you would need to hope the babies show a higher quality version of the morph to know?

Hopefully I'll have better shots of him in natural light after he sheds next; he is looking a bit dark, but I handle so little right now that I am not sure if it I'd a shed sign just yet. After that is probably the best time to get a better idea for him.

With Fire you can pair to another fire and you should get some Black Eyed Lucies out of it if it proves out.

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To prove out any genetics that are questionable I always look for a mate that has a morph that will throw something obvious. You can always breed to a normal and hope for less ambiguous offspring, but it's easier to prove out a gene with something that will completely change the color or pattern of the animal and won't take insurmountable odds to prove.

So for a Fire, you could pair to either a known Fire or a Pastel, to you'll get either a very obvious super fire, or a pretty obvious dragonfly.

To prove pastel, you could use another pastel, a spider, a calico, a fire, a pinstripe, really anything will change completely when pastel is added.

If I were trying to prove enchi or orange dream though, that's a little tougher. For Enchi, I'd pair Mojave, because a Mochi is a pretty obvious combo.

For orange dream, you could use spider, as a dream bee is reasonably obvious, I'm sure there are some other obvious combos, but I don't work with orange dream so I'm not really the authority on combos.

But if they are just pets, I wouldn't worry too much about it, they'll still make great pets no matter what morph they are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RXLReptiles

To prove out any genetics that are questionable I always look for a mate that has a morph that will throw something obvious. You can always breed to a normal and hope for less ambiguous offspring, but it's easier to prove out a gene with something that will completely change the color or pattern of the animal and won't take insurmountable odds to prove.

So for a Fire, you could pair to either a known Fire or a Pastel, to you'll get either a very obvious super fire, or a pretty obvious dragonfly.

To prove pastel, you could use another pastel, a spider, a calico, a fire, a pinstripe, really anything will change completely when pastel is added.

If I were trying to prove enchi or orange dream though, that's a little tougher. For Enchi, I'd pair Mojave, because a Mochi is a pretty obvious combo.

For orange dream, you could use spider, as a dream bee is reasonably obvious, I'm sure there are some other obvious combos, but I don't work with orange dream so I'm not really the authority on combos.

But if they are just pets, I wouldn't worry too much about it, they'll still make great pets no matter what morph they are.

---

Thanks for the thoughts! I feel like spider may also work for proving enchi; all the ones I see with both the enchi really breaks up the connections of the spider pattern, so it seems like it would be obvious there. (Though some of them are listed as poss super enchi, if I remember right). I think those also end up lighter/more yellow/gold than a normal spider, though not on par with bumblebee.

I'm considering doing a few pairings to sell locally in a few years once the animals I have are old enough and I've had time to research it well and fully decide, but that wasn't the plan for these two, so probably won't pair them.

If I happen to wind up with a male fire, I may try to prove out the girl if I find I enjoy breeding for a hobby, but I'm not counting on it.

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Spider can work to prove out enchi, but I feel like the spider enchi, aka stinger bee, doesn't always look obvious enough in a low expression animal. But if you have a regular spider to compare it to, it should be a no brainer.

And I understand what you mean, breeding is a big decision, and since they're still young you've got a while to see how colors change as they mature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RXLReptiles

Spider can work to prove out enchi, but I feel like the spider enchi, aka stinger bee, doesn't always look obvious enough in a low expression animal. But if you have a regular spider to compare it to, it should be a no brainer.

And I understand what you mean, breeding is a big decision, and since they're still young you've got a while to see how colors change as they mature.

---

I have a male spider het pied, so I'd be covered for spider vs not comparison if I did choose to. I think he is somewhere between "average" spider pattern and reduced spider pattern. He has only a few spot markings near the front and not as many marks down his sides as I've seen in a lot of other spiders at expos.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d5320dcda8.jpg

Unfortunately male possible enchi can't be paired to a male spider, hahaha.

You're right that it is a ways off, so I'm not going to worry about it much now. I'm keeping a marker by their morph (listed as normal in my tracker) with the ones it might be and a "?" Just so I can keep track of what was speculated for them each.

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I don't have a bunch of pictures, but as of Monday both of them went blue within 24 hours of each other!

The boy is being difficult about F/T right now, so he's getting live intermittently with F/T attempts in between. Because of this, the girl seems to be catching up in weight. Hard to be certain since she's been holding the last 2 meals; now I know it was in preparation for this shed.

She's definitely not skinny anymore, but her scales still have this really weak and odd sort of texture to them. I'm really hoping that they improve more with this shed. Last time they improved some, but she had hardly had any extra nutrition, so I hope it will be more improvement this time. (I think it was only 2 pretty small meals before shedding, if memory serves)

She seems to hold onto poops longer than most of my others and gives herself sausage butt from it, but she has gone several times now, so I'm not too worried about it just yet.

Here's the boy when we spotted him in shed.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b0bec25590.jpg

And here's the girl.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...752debd9b6.jpg


I'm considering adding some vitamins or something to the girl's prey for some extra nutrients, especially if this shed doesn't improve how her skin and scales feel by much.

Any thoughts for how to go about it or what to use (or if it would be beneficial)? I've got some nutribac and general gecko insect dusting vitamins along with pedialyte which I've added to her water, though she doesn't seem to drink out of the bowl much.
Actually doing it would probably work okay to lightly mist the next rat with water and "dust" some onto its fur before feeding. Not sure if it is worth it or if any of those would be something good for her, though.

I'm sure it will probably improve more with time without intervention, but after seeing the thread on here with the pet store rescue BP who ripped skin open while shedding due to fragile scales/skin and how eerily their descriptions of how the scales feel matched how she felt on day 1... it is a bit off-putting.

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I've supplemented the meals of rescues or breeding snakes in the past with reptile multi-vitamins. I just put a little powder into the dead rodents mouth, the snake
doesn't know the difference, & I think it may help &/or couldn't hurt. I've also heard ppl talk about using bird vitamins (Avitron, I think?), very similar to herp. vits.
Snakes that have skin issues heal very slowly...hang in there. (-the skin doesn't seem to get the priority nutrients when it comes to survival-?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I've supplemented the meals of rescues or breeding snakes in the past with reptile multi-vitamins. I just put a little powder into the dead rodents mouth, the snake
doesn't know the difference, & I think it may help &/or couldn't hurt. I've also heard ppl talk about using bird vitamins (Avitron, I think?), very similar to herp. vits.
Snakes that have skin issues heal very slowly...hang in there. (-the skin doesn't seem to get the priority nutrients when it comes to survival-?)

---

The vitamins I have were bought for our geckos, but are probably fine for reptiles in general. I forget the name, but I think it is the ZooMed brand multivitamin. I've got calcium also (with and without D3), but I wouldn't have any idea if that would help at all. General vitamin seemed like a better way to go.

That sounds way easier to add in with dead rodents... I think sprinkling a little onto a slightly wet live feeder would probably work out okay. If nothing else, the extra water would be good for her. Her prey drive with the live ones is strong enough I would be surprised if it deterred her.

I'll give it a try when she eats after this shed and update how that goes. We intended to skip this last meal after a slightly large one the prior week (sizing at the store is not always ideal...), so them both going into shed was oddly convenient timing. We usually feed on Monday, so they may eat this week or not till the next week depending when they shed for us.

I haven't tried swapping her to dead ones yet; her muscle tone is much improved, and I think I would attribute at least some of it to the extra workout subduing the rats. She definitely doesnt feel like holding a wet noodle anymore; which is a somewhat generous description of how she handled at the start.

I didn't realize that skin and scales were that slow to recover; after what I had seen posted on burns and bite injuries healing after a few sheds (or less on minor ones) I had thought it would be closer to that time-frame; 2-3 sheds or so to get close to normal. Wow. You would think scales and skin would be a priority since it would be one of their defenses against further injury in the wild, guess not though. Good to know!

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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

I'm sure it will probably improve more with time without intervention, but after seeing the thread on here with the pet store rescue BP who ripped skin open while shedding due to fragile scales/skin and how eerily their descriptions of how the scales feel matched how she felt on day 1... it is a bit off-putting.

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---

I know exactly which thread you are talking about and have been following it since first posted. I wanted to give you a link to this post they started, as they have some very good info in here. There's also a link about halfway down the first page specifically about a different person's experience with their snake's fragile skin and supplementing with Vitamin C.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...sion-with-pics

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

...
That sounds way easier to add in with dead rodents... I think sprinkling a little onto a slightly wet live feeder would probably work out okay. If nothing else, the extra water would be good for her. Her prey drive with the live ones is strong enough I would be surprised if it deterred her....

I didn't realize that skin and scales were that slow to recover; after what I had seen posted on burns and bite injuries healing after a few sheds (or less on minor ones) I had thought it would be closer to that time-frame; 2-3 sheds or so to get close to normal. Wow. You would think scales and skin would be a priority since it would be one of their defenses against further injury in the wild, guess not though. Good to know! ...

---

That's a challenge to supplement live feeders: you might do better if you can "gut-load" the feeders themselves- restrict food to something saturated with liquid vitamins,
& then feed soon after. Two problems with dusting powdered vits onto a live rodent: the odor of the vitamins can cause a refusal, & then even if wet* the powder mostly
falls off as the snake grabs & swallows them. *I've tried putting powdered vits onto damp f/t prey, & live prey moves a lot more than f/t. Just doesn't work very well...

Yes, you'd think a snake's skin would be a priority??? but have you ever noticed, when they get injured, they don't bleed a lot. They may have evolved to conserve blood
this way, since injuries aren't rare in the wild; I have a hunch that the slow healing is because their skin just isn't that vascular. :confusd: What do you think?

First.. Thanks WhompingWillow for pointing out that thread! I saw it before, but must have completely forgotten about it. I was referring to their main thread, but didn't remember the spin-off one there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That's a challenge to supplement live feeders: you might do better if you can "gut-load" the feeders themselves- restrict food to something saturated with liquid vitamins,
& then feed soon after. Two problems with dusting powdered vits onto a live rodent: the odor of the vitamins can cause a refusal, & then even if wet* the powder mostly
falls off as the snake grabs & swallows them. *I've tried putting powdered vits onto damp f/t prey, & live prey moves a lot more than f/t. Just doesn't work very well...

Yes, you'd think a snake's skin would be a priority??? but have you ever noticed, when they get injured, they don't bleed a lot. They may have evolved to conserve blood
this way, since injuries aren't rare in the wild; I have a hunch that the slow healing is because their skin just isn't that vascular. :confusd: What do you think?

---

I would definitely try that, except I recently got some really good rats for breeders but they're not up to size yet. The store nearby doesn't breed themselves, they just ship in from one of the bigger breeders around here (not sure which one), but they're kept in an ARS rack at the store with Mazuri 6F, so I know they're well-fed. I'm not as sure if they may have any illnesses, though. One of the breeders nearby that vends expos always has some pretty sickly-looking rodents and I have been trying to feed them off ASAP to prevent my future breeders from getting any illnesses (especially any RI). There's not really a way to keep them out of the same air supply most of the year, so I've been picking them up in the evening and feeding right when we get home. Since we're experiencing spring weather for the next while, I may be okay to keep those for a day or two in the garage, but the real issue is she's eating rat fuzzies or extra small rat pups (12-18g, her weight is around 160g when I weighed a few weeks ago). Neither of those are weaned, so I'm not sure gut-loading them is even possible; fuzzies would mostly still be drinking milk and it would be cruel to semi-starve them just to try the gut-load approach unless you think a few hours would be enough for it.

I wonder if the reptile vitamins are water-soluble... it may work a bit better if a bit is dissolved in water and sprayed onto the rodent that way it isn't just powder falling off. Doesn't prevent the smell being off-putting, but I'm willing to give her a try. I could just wet the back of the rodent so the head still smells normal. She spends just enough time to make sure she's pointing at the head before she strikes, hardly any tongue flicks to smell it, so I think I may get lucky with the smell not bothering her. (And if it does, I feel like worst case, I remove the rat, rinse it off, and offer with the smell gone)

I suppose I could go for adult mice to try and gut-load, which she has taken without issue before as well, but I've been sticking with rats for the smaller size which have less developed teeth and seem less likely to manage a serious bite if something happened. She's enthusiastic, but likes to grab the neck rather than head-on, which is a bit worrisome some days. I also felt like the extra fat of a younger rat was helpful to her putting on some initial weight.


From the other thread that was posted, it seems like it may be a good idea to try vitamin C, possibly instead of the multivitamin. She really is in much better shape than the other snakes in those threads (thank god), but that may be a more targeted and helpful supplement than a general one. I might be able to entice even a fuzzy rat to eat some of a ground up vitamin C tablet with some baby food or something else appropriate as a gut-load for that. Her condition seems good enough as-is compared to the others; she doesn't have any actual skin wounds, just weak-feeling skin and scales. It may not be a huge deal either way, but I might try that instead.

I have been lucky enough to not see any really major injuries in reptiles (that weren't.. y'know.. actual road kill). The only one we've had was a baby giant day gecko we had shipped to us must have panicked during part of the shipping as he had managed to tear some of the skin and scales off of his throat. He healed up good as new in a few months with no intervention, but there was no blood at all on him or the paper towels in his deli cup. That was something we were aware was a risk; they're such flighty and nervous geckos and in addition to tail-dropping, they can also sheer off skin if they feel like they were caught by a predator to escape. (Sheering off the skin more easily than other lizards or geckos, anyway.)

That sounds like a reasonable explanation for the slow-healing of the skin to me. I would have somewhat assumed that it was tied to snakes having slower metabolisms leading to many bodily functions being generally slower, but I think I like your reasoning better.

If her skin and scales don't seem to be improving much (or really, not enough to be noticed), I'll try gut-loading a feeder with vitamin C or the multivitamin, but if there is some good improvement, I may just leave it be. There doesn't seem to be a very good way to get her feeder size to reliably take in enough to be beneficial, so it may be better to just let her take her time getting better.

I also owe you all a photo-shoot on the boy once he has shed finally; maybe we will have a better idea if he really is a low-quality enchi or just a nice normal. :)

Lets talk about the girl.

Here is what I would do and why.

1. Large water bowl. Higher humidity. Can submerge herself for rehydration. Will help with shed.

2. (some will troll me for this) Get a pillow case that you use and smells like you. Place her in it and sit her in your lap and spend a few minuets every day holding her till she gets use to your smell and being handled. (Not feeding day or the day after) You will get to know each other. Leave the open end of the pillow case open. When you feel her moving around just let her but don't let her get into anything. This is a trust building activity. (I would do this with any new BP or snake for that matter)

3. Inject water in her food if she is eating FT. Will help with hydration.

4. Start tap training them now. You will be happy later you did this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyrivers

Lets talk about the girl.

Here is what I would do and why.

1. Large water bowl. Higher humidity. Can submerge herself for rehydration. Will help with shed.

2. (some will troll me for this) Get a pillow case that you use and smells like you. Place her in it and sit her in your lap and spend a few minuets every day holding her till she gets use to your smell and being handled. (Not feeding day or the day after) You will get to know each other. Leave the open end of the pillow case open. When you feel her moving around just let her but don't let her get into anything. This is a trust building activity. (I would do this with any new BP or snake for that matter)

3. Inject water in her food if she is eating FT. Will help with hydration.

4. Start tap training them now. You will be happy later you did this.

---

I appreciate your time to try and give advice, but none of these will matter for this situation in my opinion. I will explain why below. It kind of feels like you haven't been reading the thread, to be honest, based on one of your suggestions.

For #1, there is a fairly substantial bowl for the size of the tub and it holds humidity in the 75-85% range without misting at all. Due to quite a few aquariums, our house has a higher-than-usual humidity and as we enter spring and the rainy season, the house itself sits around 50-55% humidity. The bowl is big enough she could curl up fully in it if she wanted, but I've never had a ball python bother with that voluntarily. If I go any higher in the humidity things will have tons of condensation and the substrate will be wet rather than the air being humid. Also, a bigger bowl would make it impossible to allow her 2 hides in the tub. So, no I will not do this one. When I upgrade her tub, she will definitely get a bigger bowl, but for now... not really something that would fit.

#2 & #4 this is a ball python, not a boa or a retic or anything else. From day 1, she was one of the friendliest and least shy BPs I've seen. She hardly balls up when out of the tub and is as comfortable with handling and me as our adult male we have had for almost 2 years (all this despite giving a few brief soaks at the start that she was not a fan of).

I work with all of my snakes regularly once they're established eaters (minimum of 3 consecutive meals for BPs). Even very shy BPs do just fine by held against the body covered by a hand until they feel like moving or having a flap of a jacket laid over their back, and I do this for any of the shy ones. I'm sure a pillowcase has a similar effect, but this is easier for me to do; shirts, hands, and jackets are just more handy for me. I don't actually have any spare pillowcases I can risk getting peed or pooped on, lol. This girl is far from shy, though I do work with her "brother" that way as he is much more nervous.

Tap training for a docile BP seems excessive and redundant to me and I won't bother with it unless I wind up with a highly food-driven individual that lunges out of the tub every time it opens. This girl is not one of those (none of my 7 are like that, actually). I don't just pick them up, but I don't bother with a hook. I have a hook for my boas, blood, and carpet python, but it is unnecessary for the rest. Lifting the hide and lightly touching a finger to her side so she knows I'm there is more than enough before picking up.

As for #3... I've been clear in many posts that she is eating live fuzzy rats; honestly just kind of confused why you bring up F/T on her. Half the discussion with Bogertophis before was about figuring out a way to add a supplement to a live feeder for her.

She gets live partly to keep her feeding guaranteed due to prior owner feeding live, and partly to help her work her muscles which were very atrophied when I got her. She is nearly at the point where I would be comfortable switching, but due to starting to breed my own rats, I would rather switch her to pre-killed rather than bother with the extra effort on F/T since they will be readily available in about a month. Fuzzy rats are about as harmless as a feeder can be for a ball python, so I'm not too worried about injuries from it right now.

Once again, I really DO appreciate you trying to give advice. I hope I explained well enough why I am not planning to follow it in this case. Some of that advice would have been more helpful when I picked her up back in January, I think.

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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pretends2bnormal

I appreciate your time to try and give advice, but none of these will matter for this situation in my opinion. I will explain why below. It kind of feels like you haven't been reading the thread, to be honest, based on one of your suggestions.

For #1, there is a fairly substantial bowl for the size of the tub and it holds humidity in the 75-85% range without misting at all. Due to quite a few aquariums, our house has a higher-than-usual humidity and as we enter spring and the rainy season, the house itself sits around 50-55% humidity. The bowl is big enough she could curl up fully in it if she wanted, but I've never had a ball python bother with that voluntarily. If I go any higher in the humidity things will have tons of condensation and the substrate will be wet rather than the air being humid. Also, a bigger bowl would make it impossible to allow her 2 hides in the tub. So, no I will not do this one. When I upgrade her tub, she will definitely get a bigger bowl, but for now... not really something that would fit.

#2 & #4 this is a ball python, not a boa or a retic or anything else. From day 1, she was one of the friendliest and least shy BPs I've seen. She hardly balls up when out of the tub and is as comfortable with handling and me as our adult male we have had for almost 2 years (all this despite giving a few brief soaks at the start that she was not a fan of).

I work with all of my snakes regularly once they're established eaters (minimum of 3 consecutive meals for BPs). Even very shy BPs do just fine by held against the body covered by a hand until they feel like moving or having a flap of a jacket laid over their back, and I do this for any of the shy ones. I'm sure a pillowcase has a similar effect, but this is easier for me to do; shirts, hands, and jackets are just more handy for me. I don't actually have any spare pillowcases I can risk getting peed or pooped on, lol. This girl is far from shy, though I do work with her "brother" that way as he is much more nervous.

Tap training for a docile BP seems excessive and redundant to me and I won't bother with it unless I wind up with a highly food-driven individual that lunges out of the tub every time it opens. This girl is not one of those (none of my 7 are like that, actually). I don't just pick them up, but I don't bother with a hook. I have a hook for my boas, blood, and carpet python, but it is unnecessary for the rest. Lifting the hide and lightly touching a finger to her side so she knows I'm there is more than enough before picking up.

As for #3... I've been clear in many posts that she is eating live fuzzy rats; honestly just kind of confused why you bring up F/T on her. Half the discussion with Bogertophis before was about figuring out a way to add a supplement to a live feeder for her.

She gets live partly to keep her feeding guaranteed due to prior owner feeding live, and partly to help her work her muscles which were very atrophied when I got her. She is nearly at the point where I would be comfortable switching, but due to starting to breed my own rats, I would rather switch her to pre-killed rather than bother with the extra effort on F/T since they will be readily available in about a month. Fuzzy rats are about as harmless as a feeder can be for a ball python, so I'm not too worried about injuries from it right now.

Once again, I really DO appreciate you trying to give advice. I hope I explained well enough why I am not planning to follow it in this case. Some of that advice would have been more helpful when I picked her up back in January, I think.

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Yeah.... I should have read everything first. I posted and then read and then was to late to modify my post. Wont make that mistake again.

I do have a female BP that has always been super easy to handle. This spring so far she has been super hungry. I am happy I tap trained her from the start now. It brings her out of food mode. You call with your animal. The comment about her not being a boa or retic.... well my boas and retics are as easy to handle with the size being an additional factor to keep in mind. Each animal is different. Sounds like you are doing a great job. Best wishes.

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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

Yeah.... I should have read everything first. I posted and then read and then was to late to modify my post. Wont make that mistake again.

I do have a female BP that has always been super easy to handle. This spring so far she has been super hungry. I am happy I tap trained her from the start now. It brings her out of food mode. You call with your animal. The comment about her not being a boa or retic.... well my boas and retics are as easy to handle with the size being an additional factor to keep in mind. Each animal is different. Sounds like you are doing a great job. Best wishes.

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I thought that might have happened, oops. Been there done that. Definitely no hard feelings on it. As I said, I do appreciate the time you took to give advice even if it doesn't quite work out here.

I didn't mean that boas or retics can't be calm; both my boas are young but calm as can be and definitely don't need the hook tap to be picked up, but I still do it for them in preparation for the future. I meant more for those species, their potential for an extreme food response that necessitates the tap training.

BPs tend to be easy to knock out of food mode, even without prior training. We got our adult male BP as an adult so I've had some practice with him. Once or twice I have had to work with him to clean up his tub after I had started thawing food for other snakes. He wasn't getting fed, but certainly thought so at first. Anything inanimate that gets close to the face tends to snap them out of it, or touching them on the body from the opposite side their head is facing. To me, that body language is easy to read, so I'm comfortable with not doing anything fancy with them first. Mine recognize that the hide lifting followed by getting their side stroked means definitely no food coming. (And when out of a hide, just the stroking) Most of the juveniles are shy enough that without the scent of food, they don't even react to a tub opening.

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Talk about good timing! She shed sometime while I was at work today. 2nd time for a perfect shed, tail tip and eye caps intact on the shed.

Glad to report that her body scales do feel much healthier. Before, if you ran your finger lightly against the grain, you could fee the edges catching like they're flaky enough to bend up. Now, the scales on her sides and back feel almost like any other juvie BP. Her belly scales are still sort of flaky like that; kind of like kids with weak fingernails that catch or tear on anything, but still noticeably improved.

She does still have a weird sort of flabby/squishy feel to her body and still some definite skin wrinkles in places where she just isn't as thick as she should be. I think she just still needs some time to fill out; now that she is getting nutrition, she is definitely growing, so I think most of it is going more toward length than filling out... she's about doubled in weight.

Just in case she hasn't bee. drinking, I did give her a short soak (about 5 minutes) and for the first time ever caught her taking a few sips! Water is a bit deeper than usual in hope that she would duck under and drink a bit which seems to have worked out.
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Here's a few shots of her fresh colors, and if I'm not mistaken, she looks brighter than she did after the last shed.

Sunlight through a window
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Half artificial light, half natural light full body shot
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Great update, she sure looks pretty good now. :gj: You're on the right track.

And the boy shed out today. :)

He is certainly a lot brighter than he has been; much brighter than I anticipated to be honest. I did my best to get the pictures near a window for natural light, but since it is cloudy, it isn't quite the best light. The colors in the pictures are pretty true to life. Possibly excepting the bottom edges of his sides that are actually more orange tinted than the more brown tone in most of these shots.

Picture dump!
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I haven't ever seen a normal with that depth of gold/orange before, so maybe he really is a morph.

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He's got wonderfully rich colors. :gj: I know 'squat' about BP morphs, but I know I've seen a few similar BPs before & always thought their colors are fantastic.

It has been almost a month, wow.

Not really any new pictures right now, but the girl is really doing great. Even compared to how she felt after the last shed posted here, her scales are much closer to normal in feel.

She seems to be putting food to use for length growth instead of filling out, so she's not really filling out her looser skin yet, but it is only showing wrinkles in certain positions or during handling instead of constantly like when she was dehydrated at the start. Her muscle tone feels much better as well, the limp noodle is long gone now, so I'm sure it is only a matter of time and meals now before the rest catches up.

The only issue remaining for her seems to be her odd tongue flicking. Other than a few weeks not long after I brought her home, I haven't seen her do a full tongue flick; she has done it before, so it isn't a physical deformity. I'm keeping a close eye for RI, but she shows no symptoms of it. (No mucous, no wheezing, no popping, no open mouth breathing, etc.) She gets it out to just past the fork and retracts. There are no odd lumps under her chin or anything that could obstruct it, so as best I can tell, she just is choosing not to.

It is possible she does flick it fully when hunting food, but due to the dim lighting, I haven't seen it. I may take her out for more than a few minutes tonight and see if it comes out when she has settled more and exploring.

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She is looking much better these days. Her coloring has certainly lightened from earlier pictures of her. I'm guessing being so unhealthy resulted in less healthy/vibrantly colored scales even after that first shed.

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Still some noticeable loose skin, you can see the wrinkles of it in the curves on the left half of the pictures, but she's got much better muscle tone and that is filling out slowly. She is putting food to use on length more than girth it seems.

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She's really looking good. :gj: So lucky to have your attention!