Ethics question in relationship to breeding.

So I have read different theories on it. Some say the males are driven to get to the females. Some say the females are driven to get with the males. Truth is most likely a combination of both. The males get the testosterone boost and the females putting off pheromones. Either way the drive to continue the blood line is an ornate designed of every species on the planet.

Not that I am planning on breeding, the question is, "At what point is nature stronger than our desire to keep them from it?" and "The ethics of breeding VS not breeding?". Boy am I asking some real though questions today. Lets make it easier to answer those questions.

1) Is it ethical to not allow a species to breed? Need VS desire.

2) Would it be more ethical to allow a species to breed and not hatch the eggs over not allowing to breed at all? To hatch or not to hatch or not to breed at all?

3) Is breeding a Need or just a Desire? Some species are more driven than others.

4) Other theory?

Please offer discussion to support your choice.

Not a breeder or even super experienced, but my $0.02 to start.

I think Need vs Desire depends on species or even individuals. Kind of like a sliding scale.

Corns/BPs seem like mostly Desire. No negative side effects if not bred aside from BP fasting which is typically harmless.

Things like Retics seem closer to Need, at least on some individuals. Seems to be especially true of ones who have smell-access to the opposite gender. This based on many posts seen of retics tearing up faces, etc. during breeding season.

I think for any animal that is Need, breeding should be allowed if feasible (proper age/size for it, adequate space, etc.).

As for eggs, if it is something the owner can and wants to handle the responsibility of (housing, feeding, and rehoming), then good. But anyone who would fail at any of those resulting in low quality of life for the offspring , especially considering retic clutch sizes and size of the animal (not everyone is cut out to own), then I don't see a big issue with freezing the clutch as soon as it is discovered. I think it would be fuzzy to wait or partially incubate.

This gets much more complicated for live-bearers, of course... babies are born before you could do anything, unlike eggs that are undeveloped when you would freeze them.

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1) Ethics heavily depend upon your viewpoint: If you consider life a gift, then giving the gift of life is wonderful. If you consider living a form of suffering then breeding anything is ethically dubious.

2) Given the strain that reproduction places upon an organism: it is not efficient for survival to utilize resources if it could not gain any genetic advantage. Nature is cruel.

3) Mating is neither a need or desire in most species. It is an instinct devoid of any purpose other than to maintain genetic propagation.

4) There are exceptions to every rule.

Honestly, I would never breed any animal just for fun. (their fun)

Like its been said, its an instinct. And just because there is this instinct (or even desire) doesn't mean they get to breed in the wild. Far from it. In most species there will be fights and the winner gets the right to breed.

So should we set up fighting pits for retics or any species ? To make it more natural and realistic ? Even though most animals do not get to breed, they live their lives just fine.

When it comes to retics, I do not believe they only push for breeding reasons. I do not own retics, but have listened, learned, researched and read a lot about them. Some (quite many) just push. Either just sometimes, or a lot. To the point of causing themselves pretty bad damage.

I have a feeling the reason for that may actually lay in their nature. In the wild, they travel many miles. They aren't sedentary snakes, or like the ones that lay in wait for prey to walk by. Everything I've read about them says they are a snake that is on the go.

Even a room sized enclosure is not going to allow that animal to travel for miles, but it may distract them enough to wear them out exploring the large enclosure. Perhaps the instinct to wander is bigger in some then in others ?

Either way, I would not breed retics just to keep them "happy". Esp. with the males often turning quite combative during breeding season, I wouldn't want to risk getting sliced up while moving the male to and from the female. They have a instinct to breed and they have a instinct to fight for females.

There is also the issue of putting the females body through the strain of reproduction, both sexes prolonged feeding fasts which will be longer then if you just let them get through the season without breeding.

For one of the male giant snakes that I wanted to keep strictly as a pet I would have a talk with my vet about having him neutered (the snake not the vet). Yes I realize that it's invasive surgery and it won't be cheap, BUT these snakes can easily live for decades and that cost would be defrayed over the snake's life by not having to deal with cases of "smash face", never mind the potential that always exists for a male in the mood to decide that you are merely an obstacle to be removed in his quest for a female. IMO it's no different than having a male horse that isn't worth breeding gelded.

If you hadn't already planned and prepared prior to breeding then I wouldn't do it just because the animal want to. Breeding takes toll on the animal. Seems like you might be considering breeding since rainbow if off of food right now. Even if being bred, a lot of species stay off food till the eggs are layed or even till after they hatch. There are also the health risks of being egg bound or prolapsed oviducts. Retics are a species that get protective of their eggs, so you will have to deal with an angry snake. There is no harm in having an animal as just a pet and never breeding them. It's just a yearly behavioral cycle and will be there whether or not the animal is bred.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

For one of the male giant snakes that I wanted to keep strictly as a pet I would have a talk with my vet about having him neutered (the snake not the vet). Yes I realize that it's invasive surgery and it won't be cheap, BUT these snakes can easily live for decades and that cost would be defrayed over the snake's life by not having to deal with cases of "smash face", never mind the potential that always exists for a male in the mood to decide that you are merely an obstacle to be removed in his quest for a female. IMO it's no different than having a male horse that isn't worth breeding gelded.

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Interesting !!!!

Ethically, I would have NO problem gelding a snake. But has it ever been done? I'm sure it "can" be done. Smaller animals get gelded. For many reasons. Since retics can get quite combative it may not be a bad idea at all. I've seen the wounds they leave, slicing like razors through tendons, veins and even arteries.

Off to google ;)

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Originally Posted by 67temp

If you hadn't already planned and prepared prior to breeding then I wouldn't do it just because the animal want to. Breeding takes toll on the animal. Seems like you might be considering breeding since rainbow if off of food right now. Even if being bred, a lot of species stay off food till the eggs are layed or even till after they hatch. There are also the health risks of being egg bound or prolapsed oviducts. Retics are a species that get protective of their eggs, so you will have to deal with an angry snake. There is no harm in having an animal as just a pet and never breeding them. It's just a yearly behavioral cycle and will be there whether or not the animal is bred.

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As stated above I have not intention of breeding. No where ready for that or looking for that. Was simply an ethics question. Not even species specific.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

For one of the male giant snakes that I wanted to keep strictly as a pet I would have a talk with my vet about having him neutered (the snake not the vet). Yes I realize that it's invasive surgery and it won't be cheap, BUT these snakes can easily live for decades and that cost would be defrayed over the snake's life by not having to deal with cases of "smash face", never mind the potential that always exists for a male in the mood to decide that you are merely an obstacle to be removed in his quest for a female. IMO it's no different than having a male horse that isn't worth breeding gelded.

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Another great point. Keep them coming.

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Originally Posted by zina10

Interesting !!!!

Ethically, I would have NO problem gelding a snake. But has it ever been done? I'm sure it "can" be done. Smaller animals get gelded. For many reasons. Since retics can get quite combative it may not be a bad idea at all. I've seen the wounds they leave, slicing like razors through tendons, veins and even arteries.

Off to google ;)

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Getting people to think and exploring new ideas is why I ask these questions. Will do research after work also. Let me know what you come up with.

If nature was to take its place, not every male would be able to breed and among those who do, not every male gets to sire their offspring (ie sperm competition, the arms race against the female sex organ defenses, etc). We used to think the larger, dominant male of a species typically gets mating rights and sire the group's offspring. Come to find out, many of the smaller, submissive males plus the willingness of some promiscuous females sire the offspring that are reared and/or protected by the dominant male (Unknown to him). Females generally have a lot to say in deciding who to mate, and even after the fact, whose sperm to reject or keep.

So if we were to let nature be for our snakes, how can we meet that goal? In the wild, numerous males compete for the one female. In captivity, are we allowing our males to fight to breed? Even if there is a victor, it is still selective breeding because the victor came from a very small pool of males vs a random, large sample of males.

If a population grows too large to support itself, breeding should halt, whether it be in captivity or in the wild. Specifically for captive bred ball pythons and bearded dragons, there are way too many being hatched and not equally good homes provided to each one. Craigslist is a constant reminder of the abundant and unwanted.

So breed if you will, but breed responsibly with the plan of ensuring each one you bring to their world goes to a proper home.

After a quick google, neutering a snake may not be that easy.

For birth control purposes, removing the hemipenes would suffice. And they are removed when damaged without problems, not a major surgery. But..it would do nothing to prevent the instincts and urges.

For that the testicles would have to be removed. Which are in the abdominal area and that would require a far riskier and more involved surgery.

That may not completely remove the male aggression or instinct to breed 100% either. I have seen Geldings getting excited and even mounting mares. The instinct can still be there, even after a successful gelding, meaning both testicles and tissues were removed. Even worse with an aggressive animal, it doesn't always take the aggression away. For behavior and aggression issues it always works best if its done before the animal becomes sexually mature.

So then one would have to wonder, would it be worth the risk if the outcome may not be what was expected?

Perhaps in the future that is something that will become more commonplace?

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Originally Posted by zina10

After a quick google, neutering a snake may not be that easy.

For birth control purposes, removing the hemipenes would suffice. And they are removed when damaged without problems, not a major surgery. But..it would do nothing to prevent the instincts and urges.

For that the testicles would have to be removed. Which are in the abdominal area and that would require a far riskier and more involved surgery.

That may not completely remove the male aggression or instinct to breed 100% either. I have seen Geldings getting excited and even mounting mares. The instinct can still be there, even after a successful gelding, meaning both testicles and tissues were removed. Even worse with an aggressive animal, it doesn't always take the aggression away. For behavior and aggression issues it always works best if its done before the animal becomes sexually mature.

So then one would have to wonder, would it be worth the risk if the outcome may not be what was expected?

Perhaps in the future that is something that will become more commonplace?

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I think I will call my exotics vet and have the discussion with him to get his 2 cents. BRB.

Keep the discussion going while I wait for a call back please.

I don't think the question was understood as of yet.

Is it s quality of life issue to not allow them to breed if they are driven to find a mate and we deny them the access to do so?

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Originally Posted by zina10

After a quick google, neutering a snake may not be that easy.

For birth control purposes, removing the hemipenes would suffice. And they are removed when damaged without problems, not a major surgery. But..it would do nothing to prevent the instincts and urges.

For that the testicles would have to be removed. Which are in the abdominal area and that would require a far riskier and more involved surgery.

That may not completely remove the male aggression or instinct to breed 100% either. I have seen Geldings getting excited and even mounting mares. The instinct can still be there, even after a successful gelding, meaning both testicles and tissues were removed. Even worse with an aggressive animal, it doesn't always take the aggression away. For behavior and aggression issues it always works best if its done before the animal becomes sexually mature.

So then one would have to wonder, would it be worth the risk if the outcome may not be what was expected?

Perhaps in the future that is something that will become more commonplace?

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Correct, it's not easy surgery like with a dog or cat. The hemipenes could actually be left alone; it's the testes that would need to be removed. This is why I said you'd have to weigh the risk/cost against the benefits.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Correct, it's not easy surgery like with a dog or cat. The hemipenes could actually be left alone; it's the testes that would need to be removed. This is why I said you'd have to weigh the risk/cost against the benefits.

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I wonder how many vets have performed that surgery ? I think one problem would be that most people seeking out such a surgery would do it because of an animal that already displays aggression once sexually mature. However, that surgery doesn't always fix this issue. I believe fixing male iguanas to prevent aggression is more common. Not always a success but may be worth a try.

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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

I don't think the question was understood as of yet.

Is it s quality of life issue to not allow them to breed if they are driven to find a mate and we deny them the access to do so?

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What impact would there be on their quality of life by not breeding?

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

What impact would there be on their quality of life by not breeding?

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If some of them are driven to breed so much so that they destroy themselves in the process of trying to find a mate.

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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

If some of them are driven to breed so much so that they destroy themselves in the process of trying to find a mate.

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I've seen ball python males push during breeding season. I just don't think they're strong enough to hurt themselves.

Boas do rub or push and can mess up their faces or get nose bumps, but not on the same scale that retics do. The retics are so much stronger they can really hurt themselves a lot more.

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Originally Posted by zina10

Interesting !!!!

Ethically, I would have NO problem gelding a snake. But has it ever been done? I'm sure it "can" be done. Smaller animals get gelded. For many reasons. Since retics can get quite combative it may not be a bad idea at all. I've seen the wounds they leave, slicing like razors through tendons, veins and even arteries.

Off to google ;)

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They can be spayed (so I assume that males can also be neutered). Years ago I had a female rat snake that had an ectopic 'pregnancy' (eggs outside of where they
belonged & unable to pass them normally) and that went just fine...but she was an excellent vet experienced with exotics (snakes!).

Interesting question and I’ve enjoyed reading the answers. I picked ‘other’ for a couple of reasons. First, to answer your intended question about quality of life, and second to share my experience with breeding boas and corns.

Quality of life I think would depend on the species and the amount of drive demonstrated. You would have to determine if allowing to breed would really settle the animal, and if so, is it something you would potentially allow annually to keep temperment mild. As mentioned by others, there is the strain on the female and the likelihood of complications. I’ve never kept a species that did damage to itself from a mating drive. If I truly believed it would better the life of the adult to allow breeding, then I can see the argument to allow breeding and freeze the resulting eggs. That said, I would not breed a live bearing animal in the same situation, the difference between unformed egg and fully formed live young is distinct for me.

Second, I’ve bred redtail boas, Cuban boas, and corn snakes. Part of it at first was I wanted the experience and part was I had some really beautiful redtail boas. I had 18 perfect healthy babies in the first litter, and a little less than that with a couple of slugs in the second litter. The Cubans were unusual and have small litters (3 healthy babies, no slugs), to this day I regret selling them even though life dictated the need to do so. The first time with the corn snakes were also for the experience as I had a beautiful pair of snow corns. The second time with the corns was a whoops...my hypo and normal were both supposed to be female and I temporarily housed them together at Mom’s when I was moving. The normal was not a female. :rolleyes: My hypo also taught me that snakes can retain sperm for more than a year of seperation, giving me 3 viable eggs and several slugs as a surprise under her water dish.

Fast forward to my current collection and I have several bp’s that would make nice pairings. I’ll probably never breed them, but if I do it will most likely be the bananas...a super banana would be pretty cool...or my pied. For either I am several years away as most of the ones I would consider breeding are yearlings or less. And I pretty much know that if I breed them and get a clutch of beautiful banana or pied babies, I’m going to need more cages. :D

Forgot to add, the females seemed much less impressed than the males and I was lucky not to have any egg binding issues with the corns or complications from the slugs with my boas. I also bred at a time when the market wasn’t quite as saturated with certain species, making it easier to find homes...about 16 years ago, give or take.

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Originally Posted by Dianne

Interesting question and I’ve enjoyed reading the answers. I picked ‘other’ for a couple of reasons. First, to answer your intended question about quality of life, and second to share my experience with breeding boas and corns.

Quality of life I think would depend on the species and the amount of drive demonstrated. You would have to determine if allowing to breed would really settle the animal, and if so, is it something you would potentially allow annually to keep temperment mild. As mentioned by others, there is the strain on the female and the likelihood of complications. I’ve never kept a species that did damage to itself from a mating drive. If I truly believed it would better the life of the adult to allow breeding, then I can see the argument to allow breeding and freeze the resulting eggs. That said, I would not breed a live bearing animal in the same situation, the difference between unformed egg and fully formed live young is distinct for me.

Second, I’ve bred redtail boas, Cuban boas, and corn snakes. Part of it at first was I wanted the experience and part was I had some really beautiful redtail boas. I had 18 perfect healthy babies in the first litter, and a little less than that with a couple of slugs in the second litter. The Cubans were unusual and have small litters (3 healthy babies, no slugs), to this day I regret selling them even though life dictated the need to do so. The first time with the corn snakes were also for the experience as I had a beautiful pair of snow corns. The second time with the corns was a whoops...my hypo and normal were both supposed to be female and I temporarily housed them together at Mom’s when I was moving. The normal was not a female. :rolleyes: My hypo also taught me that snakes can retain sperm for more than a year of seperation, giving me 3 viable eggs and several slugs as a surprise under her water dish.

Fast forward to my current collection and I have several bp’s that would make nice pairings. I’ll probably never breed them, but if I do it will most likely be the bananas...a super banana would be pretty cool...or my pied. For either I am several years away as most of the ones I would consider breeding are yearlings or less. And I pretty much know that if I breed them and get a clutch of beautiful banana or pied babies, I’m going to need more cages. :D

Forgot to add, the females seemed much less impressed than the males and I was lucky not to have any egg binding issues with the corns or complications from the slugs with my boas. I also bred at a time when the market wasn’t quite as saturated with certain species, making it easier to find homes...about 16 years ago, give or take.

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Thanks for the well thought out response.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I've seen ball python males push during breeding season. I just don't think they're strong enough to hurt themselves.

Boas do rub or push and can mess up their faces or get nose bumps, but not on the same scale that retics do. The retics are so much stronger they can really hurt themselves a lot more.

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With that being said, if you had a retic and you thought breeding was the only way to settle him down would you breed?

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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

With that being said, if you had a retic and you thought breeding was the only way to settle him down would you breed?

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Probably not because there is no guarantee that it would settle him down. He could go right back to pushing as soon as he was separated from the female.

I wouldn't breed them to satisfy urges. I'm not against the ethics involved, I just don't have the space or the resources to deal with a ton of baby snakes. I thought I wanted to breed at one time but I'm just not wanting to deal with the responsibility of finding good homes for them. When I got back into keeping snakes after a many years break I def admit I got caught up in all the BP hoopla. All the new morphs out there that just didn't exist the last time I had BPs. I wanted tons of them. lol It didn't take long to see how much time, money and effort it takes to do it well. I'm happy with the two I have and have always been way more into boas anyway. To me, having a bunch of animals you can't take care of is the unethical part of this topic.