Sad

Since recently acquiring a very lovely banana ball python I have learned A LOT as far as all these morphs go. I had no idea of all the poor snakes that suffer. Are they in pain...I don't know but the person(s) that allow them to have such a disrespectful survival disgust me. The breeders in my opinion should have them humanely euthanized by a vet as soon as these terrible genetics are discovered and stop reproducing whatever morphs have such terrible results. The snakes deserve respect..
And after watching videos of the wobbles and terrible genetic defects all last night on Youtube, I honestly would have purchased a "normal wild" color instead of what I did. I do not think my boy is prone to getting those terrible genetics but let me tell you, I would not allow him to live such an unnatural existance with defects. He would be humanely euthanized.

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I'm a fan of "normals" too, and for that reason...natural selection is the way most defects are weeded out, who are we to perpetuate them for nothing more
than a fancy "paint job" that we'll soon tire of anyway & crave a different "morph"? I love colorful creatures as much as anyone here, but not at the expense
of their health. While it's true that such defects can still occur now & then, no one should knowingly increase the odds just to be lining their pockets. I'm sad
as you are that breeders aren't more responsible & if anything, are becoming less so.

I was thinking about trying to get a leucistic eventually.....but not anymore..


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Can you share the link where you read that?
I also have a Banana and would like to know.

Ricky --
Where I read what.
Sorry not sure exactly what u refer to. But I think with Bananas, we are spared the defects [emoji173]

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Originally Posted by RickyNY

Can you share the link where you read that?
I also have a Banana and would like to know.

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Unfortunately I think you are over-generalizing the defects. Not all of the morphs have genetic issues, and even those that do have genetic issues don’t affect every animal. There is plenty of information available to avoid the more common defects in your breeding projects or pets. There are also many examples of impacted morphs like spiders that are not impacted to such a degree that they can’t have a normal life span and quality of life. While there are some morphs that I wouldn’t want to propogate myself, that doesn’t mean that I believe the vast majority are suffering either. We each have to make a conscious decision on what we want versus the impact on the animal. Also keep in mind that many of the Youtube videos are documenting extreme cases versus the run-of-the-mill pet.

Here’s a reputable site that gives a good overview of defects and their impact: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

The banana gene is tied to a gender gene, or so it is assumed, so that a clutch will be essentially all one gender.

I understand what you're saying not all of them have defects but there are many that do and some breeders just keep breeding because it's about the money
SOME breeders seem to think that "it's just a few " of what they produced that have genetic problems so they're not going to worry about that ...they're going to keep breeding [emoji216]= $

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

I understand what you're saying not all of them have defects but there are many that do and some breeders just keep breeding because it's about the money
SOME breeders seem to think that "it's just a few " of what they produced that have genetic problems so they're not going to worry about that ...they're going to keep breeding [emoji216]= $

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While I get what you are saying about “some” breeders, I don’t feel the broad generalization is fair to the good breeders and hobbiests who have a passion for their animals. There are breeders of many animal species that are in it for the money without consideration for the animals (i.e. puppy mills and back yard breeders). I also don’t feel it is accurate to say “many” of the morphs have genetic faults, as there are dozens if not hundreds of morph combinations, most of which are perfectly healthy.

There are a few breeders (very few) that I have seen that are actively trying to produce the morphs that display problems using different techniques during the incubation period to try to find out if lower heat and longer incubation times reduce or eliminate the defects. Olympus Reptiles is one of them. I haven’t been able to find out what the results were though. Has anyone heard?


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Yes I am one of those people that would go ballistic if I knew somebody was running a puppy mill. I guess I'm kind of getting to the point where I feel like there's ball python mills [emoji47]
A lot of animals are exploited for money

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Originally Posted by Dianne

While I get what you are saying about “some” breeders, I don’t feel the broad generalization is fair to the good breeders and hobbiests who have a passion for their animals. There are breeders of many animal species that are in it for the money without consideration for the animals (i.e. puppy mills and back yard breeders). I also don’t feel it is accurate to say “many” of the morphs have genetic faults, as there are dozens if not hundreds of morph combinations, most of which are perfectly healthy.

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I respect the people that have a love and passion for what they're doing as long as they are making the snakes welfare priority

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

Yes I am one of those people that would go ballistic if I knew somebody was running a puppy mill. I guess I'm kind of getting to the point where I feel like there's ball python mills [emoji47]
A lot of animals are exploited for money


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Unfortunately, I think that you are right and there are ball python mills as well. Most of my snakes come from smaller hobbiest breeders, though I have one recent purchase from a well known breeder (Dynasty Reptiles), who I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase from again. I think the best we can do as keepers is to make sure we buy from reputable breeders who treat their animals well.

I agree....
And always report someone who is not treating an animal humanely no matter what it is

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Originally Posted by Dianne

Unfortunately, I think that you are right and there are ball python mills as well. Most of my snakes come from smaller hobbiest breeders, though I have one recent purchase from a well known breeder (Dynasty Reptiles), who I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase from again. I think the best we can do as keepers is to make sure we buy from reputable breeders who treat their animals well.

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

Since recently acquiring a very lovely banana ball python I have learned A LOT as far as all these morphs go. I had no idea of all the poor snakes that suffer. Are they in pain...I don't know but the person(s) that allow them to have such a disrespectful survival disgust me. The breeders in my opinion should have them humanely euthanized by a vet as soon as these terrible genetics are discovered and stop reproducing whatever morphs have such terrible results. The snakes deserve respect..
And after watching videos of the wobbles and terrible genetic defects all last night on Youtube, I honestly would have purchased a "normal wild" color instead of what I did. I do not think my boy is prone to getting those terrible genetics but let me tell you, I would not allow him to live such an unnatural existance with defects. He would be humanely euthanized.

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I misunderstood this. I thought you read somewhere that many banana ball pythons suffered to get the banana morph we have now.

No. Thank God!
I think we [emoji529] parents are ok

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Originally Posted by RickyNY

I misunderstood this. I thought you read somewhere that many banana ball pythons suffered to get the banana morph we have now.

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

There are a few breeders (very few) that I have seen that are actively trying to produce the morphs that display problems using different techniques during the incubation period to try to find out if lower heat and longer incubation times reduce or eliminate the defects. Olympus Reptiles is one of them. I haven’t been able to find out what the results were though. Has anyone heard?


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Matt is [...].

Yeah I watch their videos on YouTube but I don’t like the fact that you have to pay for the opportunity to purchase their snakes. I also don’t like the fact that they breed spiders in huge numbers. There are much better breeders out there.


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***I apologize now, word vomit ahead. TL;DR on morphs at the bottom***

I don't want to push the idea that there aren't bad breeders, and I definitely can't say that certain morphs don't have issues.

That being said, I don't feel as though spiders, or champagnes, or any other morphs shouldn't be reproduced. I've seen plenty of people bash breeders who work with these genes, and there are some bad apples that produce some horrible clutches, but I personally own 2 different snakes with the spider gene, one has absolutely zero detectable wobble, the other has a very mild wobble but it has in no way effected her ability to reach adulthood without any special accommodation, and both of them are some of the sweetest snakes I own.




As for Matt at Olympus Reptiles, I can't say he is perfect, but he is attempting to see if incubation temperature and time has an effect on the outcome of Super Black Pastels. It's something he has decided to do based on scientific research that he has done to see if that alleviates the issue, and if it doesn't he has plainly stated that he will not try the pairing again. I feel that is a fair judgement call, if he is able to produce Super Black Pastels successfully and it is repeatable, then the issues of that morph have been solved and there will be a way to produce these beautiful animals without causing undue suffering. Just the fact that Super Black Pastels exist proves that there is a way to produce them successfully and this may show a way.

And from what I've seen any spider morphs he has ever produced have little to no discernible wobble, so if he has good breeding stock that continues to make snakes with very little wobble, go for it, maybe we can eventually breed most of the wobble out of spiders.

Lastly, as far as having to join his Patreon to buy a snake from him, essentially he started offering the snakes he produced to his Patreon members first as a thank you for supporting his videos. The problem is that very few snakes made it past his Patreon supporters to be sold to the general public, so naturally more people joined his Patreon so that they could buy one of his animals instead of hoping it made it through the Patreon crowd. It's a vicious cycle that has snowballed as his channel and business has grown, and I don't see it as him taking advantage of people so much as people being impatient and unwilling to wait until his production numbers surpassed his Patreon supporter buying potential.




The other thing is this, there are over 300 base morphs for the ball python listed on the World of Ball Pythons "Morph List", and over 6600 "Designer" morphs, meaning 2 gene or greater combos. If out of all of those listed morphs, we can only list 10-12 morphs that have issues, and only a fraction of specimens that are produced actually show true detriments to the animals health or well being. Then why are morphs, in general, an issue?

In fact let's go a step further and consider the normals that are born with defects, either due to odd eggs or some sort of incubational issue. Should we stop breeding normals? Because with ANY captive bred animal there are TONS of possible reasons for deformities that can be just as bad, if not worse than, the worst spider wobbles out there.

We could say the exact same thing about bulldogs and their breathing problems, or labs and golden retrievers for their notorious hip issues as they get older, but most of those animals live long, healthy, happy lives without needing any help whatsoever. The same goes for the vast majority of snakes produced.


TL;DR : The number of spiders and similar wobble afflicted morphs that actually have a wobble bad enough to negatively effect the animals life are not nearly as high as it seems, because for every video of one badly effected snake there are hundreds, if not thousands that are perfectly fine, healthy, and happy. The owners of those animals just don't feel the need to advertise that their animal is healthy. Any captive bred species will have issues when being bred, whether producing genetic variants or not.

For what it's worth, I feel much better about buying from breeders than I would from other sources. It is up to the buyer to do research on both the animal they are acquiring and the breeder it's coming from. Ask questions. Arm yourself with knowledge. Know what questions you need to ask for peace of mind. The degree of organization and financial investment it takes to run a successful mid or large scale snake breeding operation is mind-boggling. Are there bad apples in the bunch? Yes, but this can be said about anything. You are obviously entitled to your opinion, and I also think normals are beautiful, but I think you're GREATLY overstating the dangers of morphs, especially as someone brand new to the hobby. I feel crappy about things too when I get sucked down YouTube rabbit holes. ;)

The OWAL list has been posted. It's a good source of information on known morph issues. There's another great resource out there: the BOI on Fauna Classifieds, where people can post the good AND bad about sellers. I think BOI is a testament to the hobby that most reptile keepers actually DO care about the well-being of the animals and positive experiences and want to hold each other accountable.

This is the reason why I stopped following Cinnamon Toast Ken on YouTube, used to get excited when he got more snakes and even donated money during his Christmas stream, but when he got a spider and his wife talked about breeding it many others including myself tried to speak up asking they didn't, they made a video making us sound like we were stupid and trying to be mean.

Needless to say after that video I unsubscribed and was left with a sour taste.

Birth defects like those in dogs should NOT be bred. There's no, "Oh but they can still eat and blah blah blah" It still causes issues. In nature they wouldn't survive with such issues why the hell would you let them suffer or be allowed for show?

Another note, snakes cannot express distress an pain as well as dogs and cats can or many other animals. They can yelp, squawk and have obvious body language. Snakes can be run over by a car and drag themselves around for days before finally dying and if you saw them you'd just think "Huh, wow this snake is moving pretty slow and is being gentle!" with how sluggish it's being with a collapsed spine and internal bleeding.

I'm a huge animal welfare advocate, I spend a lot of money helping animals in need, I rescue (used to do snake rescue, now just mammals, since I'm paranoid for the safety of my own collection). I'm also incredibly OCD when it comes to the care of my animals. I educate when I can. I do not breed for profit, I've bred once, I most likely will again, I feel I have the experience and knowledge to do so after almost 20 years of dealing with Ball Pythons, keeping them, rescuing them, treating all kinds of medical issues in my rescues, dealing with and resolving feeding issues, etc etc. I will still not breed for profit, it is a passion and a hobby for me, and I'm grateful that I can do it this way.

So, All that out of the way.

Genetic issues in dogs (since we are using that example) are not birth defects. A lot of dog breeds have certain genetic predispositions to certain health problems (btw, so does every other species and humans as well, such is life) When you breed for a certain trait (color, breed, size, etc) you eventually will discover common genetic traits that run along those lines. You don't even have to do line or inbreeding, although they can make those traits more likely. German Shepherds have a genetic predisposition to degenerative myelopathy, certain cancers, pancreatic insufficiency, etc. Goldens have genetic heart issues. Some share hip dysplasia issues. Each breed has their own genetic health traits. Humans have many as well. In my family there is a lot of breast cancer. So does it make my mother irresponsible to have had me? And there are very, very few dog breeds out there that would survive in the wild. Same with just about any other domesticated pet AND livestock. By that logic (which is one of PETA's drive) we should have NO pets. NO livestock. Period. None. That is what they ultimately strive for, that is where it ends to breed anything. Because you can pick it all apart until you are left with...nothing.

Of course there are BAD breeders. Whether livestock, pets, reptiles. There are abusers. I'm not saying that there aren't. And they should be shut down and they should be punished.

All I'm saying is that one starts to question ethics, where does it stop? Breeding BP morphs with known genetic issue >> BAD. BP Morphs >> bad. Only normals >> good. Or is it?

I've been around when the morph craze just got started. And let me tell you one thing. For Ball Pythons it was actually the best thing that could happen. Before that you had nothing but imported animals that went through hell before they got here. I've seen them. You think its sad what you see some you tube videos that is a small percentage of BPs with genetic issues from a handful of morphs with genetic issues? Yes, it is bad, but those imports were just heartbreaking. And for each one that made it here, there were probably 10 that died before getting here. The ones that did make it this far were so stressed, so diseased, so parasite ridden and sick that most died after languishing on for a while in mostly inexperienced keepers homes.

Due to the morph craze we had people focusing on captive breeding. Due to it you have those numbers of captive bred Ball Pythons that didn't go through hell to get here, that weren't parasite ridden and sick and that were easier to keep. Even cbb can still be challenging at times, but that is nothing compared to what it used to be.

The entire reason you have this wide variety and availability is thanks to breeders. Yes, there are "mills" and people that flip animals as soon as they get them. Yes, there are tons of so called backyard breeders. But then you have a good number of awesome breeders. Of course they make a profit. And why shouldn't they? They put a lot of time and money into producing quality animals, that is not cheap. They deserve what they ask for. If we all just did it for fun, i can guarantee you that there would still be mostly imports, or prices would be sky high.

Like I said, I'm big into animal welfare. But knee jerk reactions can back fire. Everyone is against horse slaughter in the US and those animal welfare people finally got it to where those 3 slaughter plants shut down. I love horses. I spent 6000 on surgery on a old mare with no guarantee it would work. I hate horse slaughter. But closing down those plants was the WORST thing those people could have done for horses. The number of horses slaughtered have not at all gone down. Only now they get shipped to Mexico instead. Which is a trip from hell. The ones that survive that trip get slaughtered in the cruelest of manners, there are no regulations there. So how has that helped the horses? Ok, now they are trying to shut down being able to ship horses to slaughter. Great idea. But...what to do with the giant surplus of horses? They are very expensive to keep, no matter if the horse is a good one, bad one, sick one. They cost a lot of money every month. There are to many. And back yard breeders churn out more and more. At least there is a market for well bred ones, but not for the many others anymore. So now I drive through the country and see walking skeletons. People let horses loose. So what to do? Animal welfare people say, lets put them to sleep humanely. Ok, then you have thousands of HUGE bodies yearly to do what with? Bury the contaminated bodies? Can't be rendered either, due to drugs. Can't be fed to anything. Slaughter them for zoo animals? Oh, but we can't slaughter anymore. Shoot them and then what? I know this has NOTHING to do with snakes. It just shows that even well meaning actions can have bad consequences.

Some say, no more morph breedings, no more money making for breeders. Ok...so now that we all have those pretty animals we should shut it down? To bad for future keepers? Or..only have hobby breeders that don't make money because making money is bad? In a few years you won't be able to afford one, and good luck finding any. While hobby breeding is fun, to do it in any capacity costs a lot of money. If you never try to recoup any, you will not produce many animals just to give them away.

There are thousands of morphs. CBB animals that start life healthy and happy, so keepers can enjoy them and start their journey with a healthy animal. Some morphs have issues. Not that many. Of those morphs not all hatchlings have issues.

So while that is sad and terrible, its far from a widespread morph tragedy. If you bred ONLY normals, I tell you now, you would eventually find genetic issues in certain lines as soon as enough were bred to come to realize and recognize them. That's just a fact.

To the breeders that have made this hobby what it is, the ones that work hard and do it right, produce beautiful and healthy hatchlings, thank you ! I nor many others wouldn't have what we do, without you. And I'll gladly pay you for your time and work to do it right.

The ones that have no ethics, that is what the Board of Inquiry and the facebook inquiry for reptiles is for. So we can help each other to stay away from the scammers and bad apples in this industry.

Sorry for the long post, and please excuse grammar and spelling. I'm German and don't feel like proof reading, I just wrote it down as the thoughts popped into my head ;)

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

Yes I am one of those people that would go ballistic if I knew somebody was running a puppy mill. I guess I'm kind of getting to the point where I feel like there's ball python mills [emoji47]
A lot of animals are exploited for money...

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Apart from the physical issues that some morphs have, the other problem I have with those of you breeding morphs is that your passion (and/or profit motives) are
creating WAY too many snakes that appear as "normals" or other undesirables that will NEVER have good homes. How can you even sleep at night? I couldn't. For
the same reason my dogs have always been from shelters...too many pets, not enough homes. What happens when you sell them off cheaply? They are throw-away
toys, in essence.

I, personally, sleep great.

I only bred this once, but to this day I get updates and emails, thanking me for those great animals. The new owners are thrilled. 3 of those ask me every so often if I have more, as they love their little ones.

There are many great breeders, do all animals end in a good home ? Nope. No matter who or where you buy them from OR adopt them from.

If the people that bred the animals shouldn't sleep well, neither should the ones that bought them. Which means pretty much all of us here. Because even the Normals that are owned, were CBB, most likely by people that also produce morphs.

And if we had people only producing Normals, if that is all we had, there would still be those that end up in homes not cared for, just the same.

Truly, if one walks down that road, it really should end up the way PETA wants. Just don't breed anything, period. There is always going to be some form of contention that can be found with any of it.

At this point I feel I have shared my viewpoint and opinion, and I realize that others have their own, and that is a good thing, whether we agree or not. It is starting to circle around though, so I thank everyone for their input, always good to see it from all angles, but now I bow out ;)