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Thoughts on Hybrids?

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  • 12-09-2018, 02:31 AM
    Jbabycsx
    Thoughts on Hybrids?
    How does everyone feel about the super angry ball hybrids? It has probably been brought up before. I just saw one for the first time today. Positive? Negative? Undecided?


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  • 12-09-2018, 04:45 AM
    Zincubus
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jbabycsx View Post
    How does everyone feel about the super angry ball hybrids? It has probably been brought up before. I just saw one for the first time today. Positive? Negative? Undecided?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I have never heard of them ...I will google now .

    I do love Hybrids in general though ..

    Here is my very own :)

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9ea09f7799.jpg




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  • 12-09-2018, 04:49 AM
    Reinz
    You want Super Angry, just reach into my Olive Python’s enclosure while she is in it. She’ll show you what for now! :D
  • 12-09-2018, 04:51 AM
    Zincubus
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    So...a Super Angry Royal is a 50% Angolan python, 25% Blood python, and 25% Ball python. The breeder put his male Angolan to a SuperBall (Blood x Ball) python he had to create this new hybrid.

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c180cfc697.jpg


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  • 12-09-2018, 05:20 AM
    Jbabycsx
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    I ran across them while looking for an axanthic BP today. The breeders name is Juggernaut Reptiles in New York. Makes you wonder what else you can breed to a BP.


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  • 12-09-2018, 07:49 AM
    Lord Sorril
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    I have nothing against hybrids as long as they are properly labeled, however, a lot of breeders do not want to lose a season with a female that may not lay eggs from a low probability cross: so they will mate her with a same species of male (just in case). Depending upon genetic assortment they might end up with a hybrid that looks a lot more like one species than the other and label it wrong.

    This happened to a friend of mine and he ended up with a female SuperBall: when confronted the breeder explained the situation to him. My friend did keep the female and failed repeatedly to breed her back to a ball python in the following years, he showed me a video and male ball pythons exhibited sheer terror when in any proximity to her. Last I heard she was a display pet only.
  • 12-09-2018, 09:14 AM
    Zincubus
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Lord Sorril View Post
    I have nothing against hybrids as long as they are properly labeled,
    .

    I think that's the way to look at this type of thing .


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  • 12-09-2018, 11:52 AM
    Craiga 01453
    I honestly don't know enough about it. But my initial reaction is: as long as the animals are healthy, unharmed and can live normal lives I guess I don't oppose it.

    But, I'm also forced to wonder WHY???
    I just don't see the need. There are already so many amazing species, why mess with nature that way? Between all the species of snakes in the hobby, plus all the morph options, isn't that enough?

    Like I said, the animals health is the most important thing.
    But you'll never see me with a scaleless or hybrid snake.
    But, that's just me....
  • 12-09-2018, 11:57 AM
    zina10
    I don't like it when the species used come from very different regions and have quite the different care requirements.

    Such as breeding Balls with Bloods.

    Just because you breed one BP with one Blood doesn't mean you get a 50/50 hatchling. Each hatchling could have more genetic material from one parent or the other. What you have is a "crap shot" as to what husbandry you should apply. Sure, you could go with middle ground regarding temps, humidity and such. But if the hatchling is fussy, you never know is it because its just shy, do I need to lower, raise temps, or ???

    Since I like to have my husbandry just right when it comes to species, or as close as to perfect I can get, I don't like to play the guessing game and its not fair to the animal.

    Some hybrids occur in nature, when the species is from the same general area and climate. But you would never have a species from Southeast Asia come across a species from Western to Central Africa.
  • 12-09-2018, 12:31 PM
    zina10
    As to "properly labeled" and responsibly done.

    Yeah, that never works for long. Perhaps at one point someone properly labeled. Then it got sold. And someone (like most people do) thought, I want to breed this. Or sell it. Might sell easier if not told exactly what it is.

    With some species you can quickly muddy up the gene pool or locality.

    I'm with Craig on that one, it seems to me people do it because "they can". A regular blood or ball doesn't make much money, but call it a angry ball, whoa, bunch more $$$.
  • 12-09-2018, 12:52 PM
    Stewart_Reptiles
    Are some hybrids amazing looking? Yes, would I own one? No but I have owned carpet intergrades which is slightly different but still have the same issues attached to them.

    While the person breeding the first generation will likely be honest and upfront, down the road it’s a whole different story, because people either don’t know or don’t care and sadly some hybrids can breed and the trouble start after several generations when an hybrid start looking like something pure but is not and is being sold as such.

    Ethics is the main problem and hybrids should be pets only sadly you cannot control that as there is too much temptations.
  • 12-09-2018, 01:07 PM
    Crowfingers
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    I don't agree with any type of hybrid - of any species. It would be different if the species in question met and interbred naturally in the wild (like some warblers) but the grand majority are not animals that would encounter each other naturally. For example lion+tiger crosses often have growth issues where they continue growing well beyond what either species should. People that get the hybrid cats (savanna cats / oci-cats) think they are getting a cool looking domestic pet that then has a lot of the wild tendencies still intact - and they wind up being declawed and obese because they are too destructive and not meant to eat cat food.

    Just because something is close enough related to breed does not mean it should be. The consequences are not well enough understood should the hybrid then get into a wild population, the people that can afford to buy them often have little knowledge about their care and needs, and many are 'culled' whether from defects at birth or later in life due to behavior issues (at least for many of the designer cat / wolf / coyote hybrids), the lucky few make it into rescues.

    Just think for a moment - how many of the general public that spur of the moment decide to get a big snake do you trust with even correctly caring for a regular ball python or retic? What about a retic+burm+x python that has no growth regulation in it's genes and also could be a lot more grumpy than the base species are individually? How many of them would end up dumped out in the wild to die, or worse thrive? Or die of neglect from too small of enclosures and improper care?

    It's just not worth it.
  • 12-09-2018, 01:14 PM
    Dianne
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    While the animal itself is attractive, it isn’t something I would purchase. First because I think Angolans are gorgeous, so why mess with the pure animal? But as others have said, these animals aren’t from the same localities, so at least to some degree the husbandry wouldn’t be spot on. The ethics issue is a whole other can of worms, especially when animals leave the original breeder. Some folks may intentionally fail to disclose information, but much more likely would be someone who bought the animal not understanding what it was and later breeding it.
  • 12-09-2018, 01:37 PM
    distaff
    Mules have utility. There may be some other agricultural livestock that I can't think of at the moment that are justifiably crossed.

    There is no utility in crossing an Angolan with a Royal. Long term, that just messes up the gene pool, and makes the whole captive population suspect. Genetic testing can probably reveal crosses (assuming good data on pure lines), but that is not something the average hobbiest is going to do for a while, at least. Habitats are shrinking, and export/import laws will become ever more restrictive. The only way these animals well remain available in captivity is with good breeding practices. True for captive bred fish and birds as well. There are numerous species in the fish hobby that are believed to be extinct in the wild (Select Aquatics, Greg Sage is a good source of info here, for the fresh water live-bearers). Many fish can cross. Single species tanks, or community tanks of unrelated fish are considered better practices.

    If we want to keep them in the future, we have to protect their genetics now.
  • 12-09-2018, 01:37 PM
    Bogertophis
    My objections have already been well-covered by others here (thank you!) so just put me down as OPPOSED.

    I was once given a hybrid (corn x king) snake...I kept it for a while but re-homed it. I see no point to doing these crosses...nature gets it right (what survives),
    while humans just make a mess of things for all the wrong reasons. (ie. money & showing off) Muddying up the gene pool is not going on my conscience...to
    me, this is disrespectful of nature: no matter how pretty an individual turns out, it doesn't end well in the long run (for the good of the species).
  • 12-09-2018, 02:08 PM
    zina10
    I agree with Mules being one of the good ones. But that is because they aren't made for fun, but for practical use. And they are sterile, so they will never muddy up any gene pool. I think there was one or two freak occurrence where a mule was able to breed, but those are rare exceptions that will cause no issues.

    Wild Cats and Wolf hybrids I find sad. Truly sad. Most end up in bad situations and all the percentages and numbers mean absolutely NOTHING once you are past the first and second generation. I have seen vastly different pups in the same litter. They should all be the same, when it comes to "percentage". Yet they were anything but. There were a couple that looked very wolf like, and they had the temperament and traits to go with it from the get go. There were some that looked (and acted) pure dog. And then you had the in-between. Confused animals. Those numbers and percentages mean nothing when you are trying to figure out what that animals needs will be like, how it will need to be housed, its suitability as a pet or even what it will end up looking like.

    So what if it works for some people? Usually it does because despite percentage, they ended up with a animal with very low wild animal traits and behaviors. Wolves and wild cats simply do not make good pets. Period. Its far harder to meet the needs of a wild cat, then a 6 ft. snake.

    Wild cat hybrids often have severe digestion issues that neither of their pure parentage have. They also often have strange behaviors such as howling and yodeling at night, again, neither pure parentage does that. Many end up passed along and eventually put down. Some end up just "let free" which causes havoc on our native wildlife. Just look at the damage that feral cats have done. Throw some wild cats into that equation and see how much worse it can get.

    Hybrids for the "fun, cool and profit factor" are just not a good nor ethical idea. IMHO.
  • 12-09-2018, 02:12 PM
    MR Snakes
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Zincubus View Post
    So...a Super Angry Royal is a 50% Angolan python, 25% Blood python, and 25% Ball python. The breeder put his male Angolan to a SuperBall (Blood x Ball) python he had to create this new hybrid.

    https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...c180cfc697.jpg


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

    This just made my list
  • 12-09-2018, 05:46 PM
    Reinz
    Thoughts on Hybrids?
    Don’t know if this is called a Jungle Balls or a Bungle. :D

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...90469221ab.jpg

    Jungle Carpet Python X Ball Python
  • 12-10-2018, 03:24 AM
    the_rotten1
    Personally, I don't see any problem with it. We already breed morphs, and some people breed for size or temperament. Hybrids open up new possibilities. It may not be natural, but a lot of the designer combos we make wouldn't happen or survive in the wild either. There's not much difference in my mind between breeding an albino bp with a pied bp and breeding a ball python with a blood python. It's just another way of making a good looking snake. They're all capitve animals anyway, so their ability or inability to exist in the wild is irrelevant.

    I don't think people make them with the intention of contaminating the genetics of captive animals, though unfortunately that does happen. Mislabeling is a problem that there's no easy answer for. There's no database that keeps track of snakes and their genetics, but that's probably for the better. It would be easier for the government to ban certain species if they knew where they all were.

    At the end of the day a pretty snake is a pretty snake. If someone wants a nice looking pet, what difference does it make whether it's a hybird or not?
  • 12-10-2018, 09:17 AM
    KevinK
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    Rotten makes a good point I think, people already breed millions of ball pythons for selective colors/patterns for (sometimes) profit so I don't know why some would be concerned about the ethics of breeding hybrids suddenly. Do you think a panda pied was what nature intended when it comes to BP's? Look at it this way. Spider ball pythons and jaguar carpets are well known to have neuro issues, but the trade has kept them well alive and continued to breed them and several of you may in fact own them yourselves.

    To me it's a weird stance to take if that's your concern but if I can not turn it into an ethical issue per se, I would stress the importance of keeping clean Angolans in the pet trade more than anything. They're getting surprisingly hard to find.
  • 12-10-2018, 10:01 AM
    asplundii
    Re: Thoughts on Hybrids?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jbabycsx View Post
    Makes you wonder what else you can breed to a BP.

    Successful hybrids with balls have been made for:

    Burms
    Retics
    Angolans
    Bloods/STPs
    Carpets
    Carpondros
    Womas

    I know it has been tried with straight GTP but that breeder did not have success. Given the success with carpets and carpondros I have no doubt it is possible though. And I have heard rumour of ball x AfRock and ball x BHP but never seen any actual proof on them
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