BP always hangs out in the open

So, my daughter accidentally let Levi fall off the bed. Could he have broken ribs? It was maybe a 3 foot drop at the most onto carpet. So now, for the last couple days he does not go into his hides hardly at all, if ever. He lays loosely in the open, a lot of times with his head elevated and resting on a large branch. Would that mean it hurts to ball up in his hide? Husbandry seems to be on point. He'd been hiding normally up until this event.

He's just over 100g
In a 20 long, 80 low, 91 high
Hide each side
heat lamp on thermostat
Humidity 40-60

Thx

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My completely uneducated guess would be unlikely. When I kept my ball in a tank he would climb to the top and fall over and over again. Granted it was only a 19 inch fall, but it never injured him. I’ve seen snakes on videos fall from treetops in the wild and slither away unscathed. Hope it’s ok!


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It's possible. However, even if he broke one, or a couple, of many, why would he then be in the open? Wouldn't he want to hide and heal, knowing he's vulnerable?

Let me see if I understand the following:

1. You say temps are 80F-91F, correct? How are you measuring temps? Specifically, with what device? Are all your heating elements regulated with a thermostat? EDIT: I just saw you have a heat lamp WITH thermostat. However, I want to make sure that's the only heating element and I still want to know how you are checking your temps.

2. He has two hides. What kind of hides, how big are they, relative to him? Are they identical?

3. Humidity 40-60%? How is that being measured? That's a big range? When is it 40% and for how long? When is it 60% and for how long?


Question of the day?

Is Levi making any noises? Does he keep his head elevated for long periods of time and even sleep with his head elevated? Do you notice any discharge from his nose or mouth? Does he have a runny nose? How long have you had Levi? Where did you get Levi? Has he eaten for you? Has he eaten recently/since the fall or since he started keeping his head up?

If I had to guess, the fall is not the issue, but the low humidity and/or temps could be off is the issue. When a snake chooses to be in the open over safety of a hide and seclusion, especially a BP, (there are exceptions to this rule such as Carpet Pythons, many Boas, etc. often enjoy being out and seeing what's going on etc.) and is keeping it's head elevated, it's usually the beginning of, or he/she has, a Respiratory Infection (RI), or, on rare occasions, can be getting neurological damage, but that is very rare and comes with more, and severe other symptoms, and usually much hotter temps than you are describing.

BP's should have humidity in the 60% range. Too high can cause an RI and too low can cause an RI, especially if temps are off too and/or their are other stressors (new environment, too much handling, etc.).

40% qualifies as way to low for any extended period for a BP. 60% as a high is really just in their comfort zone. If you said 55%-60%, I'd say, fine. It's winter, no problem. Same, if you said in the summer, 65-70%. However, in the same vein, if in the summer, you said 80-85%, I'd say, too high.

Please answer the questions so we can better help you figure out what's going on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

It's possible. However, even if he broke one, or a couple, of many, why would he then be in the open? Wouldn't he want to hide and heal, knowing he's vulnerable?

Let me see if I understand the following:

1. You say temps are 80F-91F, correct? How are you measuring temps? Specifically, with what device? Are all your heating elements regulated with a thermostat? EDIT: I just saw you have a heat lamp WITH thermostat. However, I want to make sure that's the only heating element and I still want to know how you are checking your temps.

2. He has two hides. What kind of hides, how big are they, relative to him? Are they identical?

3. Humidity 40-60%? How is that being measured? That's a big range? When is it 40% and for how long? When is it 60% and for how long?


Question of the day?

Is Levi making any noises? Does he keep his head elevated for long periods of time and even sleep with his head elevated? Do you notice any discharge from his nose or mouth? Does he have a runny nose? How long have you had Levi? Where did you get Levi? Has he eaten for you? Has he eaten recently/since the fall or since he started keeping his head up?

If I had to guess, the fall is not the issue, but the low humidity and/or temps could be off is the issue. When a snake chooses to be in the open over safety of a hide and seclusion, especially a BP, (there are exceptions to this rule such as Carpet Pythons, many Boas, etc. often enjoy being out and seeing what's going on etc.) and is keeping it's head elevated, it's usually the beginning of, or he/she has, a Respiratory Infection (RI), or, on rare occasions, can be getting neurological damage, but that is very rare and comes with more, and severe other symptoms, and usually much hotter temps than you are describing.

BP's should have humidity in the 60% range. Too high can cause an RI and too low can cause an RI, especially if temps are off too and/or their are other stressors (new environment, too much handling, etc.).

40% qualifies as way to low for any extended period for a BP. 60% as a high is really just in their comfort zone. If you said 55%-60%, I'd say, fine. It's winter, no problem. Same, if you said in the summer, 65-70%. However, in the same vein, if in the summer, you said 80-85%, I'd say, too high.

Please answer the questions so we can better help you figure out what's going on.

---

1 - I have a digital thermometer on the cool side, always indicates about 79-82 range. On the warm end I have the thermostat attached to the heat lamp, set at 91 and it's digital thermometer is always in the 89-91 range. No other heat source.

2 - The 2 hides are not identical, but both are small plastic ones, very snuggly fit for him. He's always loved the hide on the warm side. He'd be in it almost always up until now.

3 - Humidity I've been struggling and struggling with and I know optimum is about 60%. The humidity gauge is part of the digital thermometer I have on the cool end, with the sensor right in the middle. I have 2/3 of the tank lid covered with saran wrap and foil. I have cypress mulch, sphagnum moss and a larger water dish. I spray daily, but usually by the time I get home it's in back down the 40-50% range and I spray again, so the low readings are not for an extended period of time. I live in Florida for crying out loud, so this humidity issue is frustrating, but the heat lamp is just sucking the life out of the humidity. He had a bad shed a week or 2 ago, but the herp shop I got him from took him in for a few days, did a good soak overnight I guess and fed him. He's been looking good since we got him back. I know the risk of an RI due to too low or high humidity, which is why I'm so frustrated.

4 - He is not making any noises, no discharge from his nose. As of yesterday I noticed his head being elevated in his tank all of the time. I woke up several times last night and looked in and he would be in a different position, but his head would still be elevated one way or another.

5 - We've had him for a couple months. He's been a good eater. Ate last Friday and plan on feeding again today because he's a bit skinny. I'm curious to see how it goes.

To address the potential injury situation you can do two things:
1) place the snake on his back and see if he's able to flip himself over without any difficulty.
2) hold the snake by his back 1/3 of his body, towards his tail. If he moves around easily he's likely uninjured.

I would hold off on feeding until you are confident no injuries were sustained in the fall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blam18

1 - I have a digital thermometer on the cool side, always indicates about 79-82 range. On the warm end I have the thermostat attached to the heat lamp, set at 91 and it's digital thermometer is always in the 89-91 range. No other heat source.

2 - The 2 hides are not identical, but both are small plastic ones, very snuggly fit for him. He's always loved the hide on the warm side. He'd be in it almost always up until now.

3 - Humidity I've been struggling and struggling with and I know optimum is about 60%. The humidity gauge is part of the digital thermometer I have on the cool end, with the sensor right in the middle. I have 2/3 of the tank lid covered with saran wrap and foil. I have cypress mulch, sphagnum moss and a larger water dish. I spray daily, but usually by the time I get home it's in back down the 40-50% range and I spray again, so the low readings are not for an extended period of time. I live in Florida for crying out loud, so this humidity issue is frustrating, but the heat lamp is just sucking the life out of the humidity. He had a bad shed a week or 2 ago, but the herp shop I got him from took him in for a few days, did a good soak overnight I guess and fed him. He's been looking good since we got him back. I know the risk of an RI due to too low or high humidity, which is why I'm so frustrated.

4 - He is not making any noises, no discharge from his nose. As of yesterday I noticed his head being elevated in his tank all of the time. I woke up several times last night and looked in and he would be in a different position, but his head would still be elevated one way or another.

5 - We've had him for a couple months. He's been a good eater. Ate last Friday and plan on feeding again today because he's a bit skinny. I'm curious to see how it goes.

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Get a temp gun ASAP. Those digital thermometers are not very accurate and not giving you ground temps where Levi is. The temps are probably different than you think.

I would also recommend identical hides.

When you spray/mist, do you do so with hot water from the tap or room temp or cold water?

Please advise and get a temp gun and get proper ground temps ASAP.

craigafrechette - Thanks! I'll try that. I do think that last night that he did get turned upside down when a blanket was moved and I don't recall him having any issues correcting himself. I'll try your recommendations tonight, tho, to be sure.

dakski - I'll get a temp gun. It's been on my list, so I'll make it top priority. I spray with room temp water. I fill up the bottle and leave it by the tank. I guess sometimes I'll use it right after I fill it from the sink so it'll be cooler water, but not cold. I'll make the hides identical, too.

On a side note, this last weekend we found a stellar deal at the flea market for a 40-ish gallon reptile tank with stand and many accessories included for $100. Great deal, so we jumped on it knowing Levi's going to need a bigger tank as he grows. Should we hold off on moving him into it for now? I know he would need a lot of "clutter" right now so he would be comfortable in such a large space....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blam18

craigafrechette - Thanks! I'll try that. I do think that last night that he did get turned upside down when a blanket was moved and I don't recall him having any issues correcting himself. I'll try your recommendations tonight, tho, to be sure.

dakski - I'll get a temp gun. It's been on my list, so I'll make it top priority. I spray with room temp water. I fill up the bottle and leave it by the tank. I guess sometimes I'll use it right after I fill it from the sink so it'll be cooler water, but not cold. I'll make the hides identical, too.

On a side note, this last weekend we found a stellar deal at the flea market for a 40-ish gallon reptile tank with stand and many accessories included for $100. Great deal, so we jumped on it knowing Levi's going to need a bigger tank as he grows. Should we hold off on moving him into it for now? I know he would need a lot of "clutter" right now so he would be comfortable in such a large space....

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Please make the temp a gun a top priority, you really don't know what your temps are without it.

Secondly, spraying cool water from your tap water can be catastrophic, and even room temp water can be very bad.

When misted, the water drops temp. Let's say, worst case scenario, the 70F room temp water stays 70F. You have an 80F ambient temp in the tank that all of a sudden is hit with 70F water. Instant 10F temp drop. To a reptile, that's huge and if that happens reguarly, that can easily cause illness and be as bad, if not worse, than the low humidity.

Always fill the water bottle fresh with hot tap water 100F+, as hot as your tap will make it up to 120F or so (mine comes out about 110-115F). When I mist, it drops immediately to about 78-80F. However, that's much less of shock to the tank than 70F or lower. I also have large tanks that hold humidity well, so I don't spray much and I don't have to spray on the animal.

If the animal is out when I spray, I never spray directly, but spray away from them, and if a little mist inadvertently touches them, it's not a big deal.

Remember, you also don't want to drench your tank, just moisten it a little.

If it's a screen top, which it sounds like it is, and you are using a CHE, cover the top with tin foil, with a cut out for the CHE. This will not only keep humidity in, but heat in as well and the CHE will work less hard, also drying the tank out less.

Additionally, what substrate are you using? That can make a difference as well.

Finally, I would figure out temps and what's going on with him first, before you try to move him.

I would also hold off on moving him. I would wait til he's about 500 grams bef9re moving him to that big a tank.

Good to know about the misting water temp. Thank you! I do make sure I don't spray him directly. I try to focus on the moss so it'll soak it up and then mist the cypress mulch substrate. I want to make sure I don't saturate it too much and get a soggy wet moldy mess on my hands.

75% of the screen top is covered. The open space is just large enough for the heat lamp. It is an infrared heat lamp, not a CHE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

Please make the temp a gun a top priority, you really don't know what your temps are without it.

Secondly, spraying cool water from your tap water can be catastrophic, and even room temp water can be very bad.

When misted, the water drops temp. Let's say, worst case scenario, the 70F room temp water stays 70F. You have an 80F ambient temp in the tank that all of a sudden is hit with 70F water. Instant 10F temp drop. To a reptile, that's huge and if that happens reguarly, that can easily cause illness and be as bad, if not worse, than the low humidity.

Always fill the water bottle fresh with hot tap water 100F+, as hot as your tap will make it up to 120F or so (mine comes out about 110-115F). When I mist, it drops immediately to about 78-80F. However, that's much less of shock to the tank than 70F or lower. I also have large tanks that hold humidity well, so I don't spray much and I don't have to spray on the animal.

If the animal is out when I spray, I never spray directly, but spray away from them, and if a little mist inadvertently touches them, it's not a big deal.

Remember, you also don't want to drench your tank, just moisten it a little.

If it's a screen top, which it sounds like it is, and you are using a CHE, cover the top with tin foil, with a cut out for the CHE. This will not only keep humidity in, but heat in as well and the CHE will work less hard, also drying the tank out less.

Additionally, what substrate are you using? That can make a difference as well.

Finally, I would figure out temps and what's going on with him first, before you try to move him.

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I would never fill a spray bottle with 120 degree water, but thats just me...

Yeah, I'm of the same mind on that. I would think that getting sprayed with water that hot could shock a snake just as much as cool water. JMHO

<><Peace

I guess warm to the touch would be a safe bet....

I mean, these critters come from Africa. I'm betting the rain that falls in their respective habitats feels cool to them if they're exposed to the rain as it's falling. I would think that water that is warmed to room temperature would be fine to use in the mister.

Maybe it's time for another poll to see how cool or how warm folks get the water before they put it into their mister. lol

<><Peace

Try hitting the water with a temp gun as it comes out of the mister, or right when it hits the wall of the enclosure, or the substrate. It's not 120F, far from it.

When the water comes out, misted, it drops in temp instantly and dramatically.

However, I am not one to tell people what to do. I can only give my suggestions.

Please, if you have evidence to oppose what I am saying, I would like to see it, and if you can prove me wrong, will be the first to admit it, and happily.

I don't want to hurt my animals, or encourage people to hurt theirs, believe me. That's the last thing I want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

If the animal is out when I spray, I never spray directly, but spray away from them, and if a little mist inadvertently touches them, it's not a big deal.

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I agree with David that you shouldn’t directly spray the snake, particularly if you are using hot tap water. When I was spraying the cages, most of my snakes did not care to get caught in the spray by evidence of shrugging where the spray may have landed and moving away. That said, some may like it. :confuzd:

I use warm water when I soak towels or sphagnum moss for a humid hide. Warm enough that I would take a bath in it. Typically by the time I’ve wrung out the excess moisture it has lost some of the heat. By the time I’ve added it to the container and arranged it, then put it in the cage, it is just barely warm to the touch. My theory for using warm water, it won’t need to heat up to ambient cage temps so it won’t be a cold spot. They can use it immediately.

I do the same thing. Not knowing any better I was misting with cool water til I noticed how fast and quick the temp dropped. It would take a solid couple hours to get back up to acceptable levels. If I fill the bottle with hot water and spray it all over my hand it barely feels like bath water even if I pump it out as fast as I can spray it. I do make sure I don't spray her directly too just to err on the side of caution. It still drops pretty good but not nearly as far. Some variables there too. Some folks like their water heaters on the burn unit setting.

Well, Levi ate last night, so that's a good sign! I thought the pup was even a little bit big for him, but he got it down okay. After he ate we put him back in the tank and covered him with his hide in the usual spot and he's stayed in there just fine. (To feed, we put him in a separate container on top of my daughter's PET mouse cage so the scents get his juices flowing. Works well!) We'll see how he acts the next couple days. I hope he stays put and digests comfortably.

My hubby picked up a temp gun at Home Depot - Ryobi, I think? Well, reading the instructions it says it can have a variance of +/- 5 degrees Celsius...not sure what that translates to in Fahrenheit, but that doesn't seem to be a very reliable tool with that much variance. Do we need a different brand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blam18

My hubby picked up a temp gun at Home Depot - Ryobi, I think? Well, reading the instructions it says it can have a variance of +/- 5 degrees Celsius...not sure what that translates to in Fahrenheit, but that doesn't seem to be a very reliable tool with that much variance. Do we need a different brand?

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I have the same one. That variance is worst case. Under the conditions you are going to use it, you can assume it to be accurate. Any temp gun in this price range will have the same variance. To narrow it down you'd need to spend serious money and get a pro-grade piece of equipment.

In other words, don't worry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blam18

Well, Levi ate last night, so that's a good sign! I thought the pup was even a little bit big for him, but he got it down okay. After he ate we put him back in the tank and covered him with his hide in the usual spot and he's stayed in there just fine. (To feed, we put him in a separate container on top of my daughter's PET mouse cage so the scents get his juices flowing. Works well!) We'll see how he acts the next couple days. I hope he stays put and digests comfortably.

My hubby picked up a temp gun at Home Depot - Ryobi, I think? Well, reading the instructions it says it can have a variance of +/- 5 degrees Celsius...not sure what that translates to in Fahrenheit, but that doesn't seem to be a very reliable tool with that much variance. Do we need a different brand?

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I'm glad to hear he ate, however, I would strongly advise feeding him inside his enclosure.
Feeding in a seperate feeding tub is old school and proven counter productive over time.
When using a feeding tub you:
A) run a higher risk of refusal due to the snake having to be moved. Moving = stress
B) run the risk of regurgitation since the animal has to be moved AGAIN after eating. Moving = stress
C) drastically INCREASE your chance if being bitten. A snake remains in feed mode for hours after eating (I've read 24 hours, I've read 48 hours. In my experience, I've noticed it for well over 12 hours many times). And you don't want to be on the receiving end of a feeding strike (as opposed to defensive) if you can avoid it.

Honestly, there's just zero benefit to using a seperate feeding tub.