toying with the idea of Leos

Recently I have been torn between a second BP or a lizard - and have been looking at a thousand species - from Ackies (need too much space right now) to blue-tongues (brumation honestly scares me lol), and bearded dragons seem too sensitive as far as UVB and the bugs they can/can't eat plus veggies to prep etc. Leo's have more pros than cons from what I have learned by reading, but I have a few questions that I hope someone with leos can answer.

1. Are mealworms an acceptable staple food source, with occasional roaches or other worms for variety? (I raise mealworms anyway and have read that they can eat all life stages)

I have also read where some people use repashy "grub pie" for geckos as a supplemental food but I'm not sure this of for leos vs arboreal species like the fruit based gel foods.

2. Is there such a thing as too big of a cage for an adult? I like the idea of something the size of a T10 (48x24x15) for lots of customization - multiple hides, multiple substrates, cage decor, etc

3. I understand that young geckos need far less space to reduce stress, but how fast do they grow? Can you start with a 10-20gal footprint terrarium then move to something bigger?

4. Being nocturnal I assume that a CHE would be best, but do they need visible light to know where to bask when needed? Probably a silly question

5. Can sphagnum moss be used safely for moist hide substrate?

6. I've read everything from tile, repti-carpet, and paper-towels as substrate plus occasionally eco-earth (dried out) for digging enrichment. Is there a 'best' or is it what you feel like cleaning up?

7. Is there a big difference in personality / health between genders? Any worry of egg-binding in non-breeding females?

8. Most I've seen are sold young, some tiny some a few inches - any pros/cons with purchase age?

9. As for supplements I've read that its is suggested to leave the calcium+d3 down in the cage at all times, as well as dust insects with both that and vitamin powder- but the recommended supplement schedules are all over the place from every feeding to once a week or less. Is vitamin A toxicity something common to them? I have not had to supplement a reptile since my iguana 15 years ago lol.

10. In the winter my house is 20-40% humidity, but in the summer that can be as high as 50-65% just in the house - will the ambient high humidity in the summer cause issues? I can add humidity for shed when needed, removing it is another story

My ideal habitat would have a lot of natural rock, slate tiles, homemade grout structures, and easily removable areas of repti-carpet for quick clean up. Possibly a removable section of eco-earth for digging that was opposite of the feeding area, unless they will just eat it. Sorry for the word wall ;/

I should add that I raise my mealworms in organic oat bran and feed organic carrots, cabbage, potato, squash, and occasionally apple or pear. So if there is a veggie that could harm the gecko via the mealworms, I'd like to know.
I avoid feeding them avocado and onions as these are toxic to birds and I don't want to risk the birds that eat my mealworms (not that I'm sure they would even eat this if offered) but being too safe never hurt anything

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1. Are mealworms an acceptable staple food source, with occasional roaches or other worms for variety? (I raise mealworms anyway and have read that they can eat all life stages)

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Perfect food for all ages and easy to produce yourself.

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I have also read where some people use repashy "grub pie" for geckos as a supplemental food but I'm not sure this of for leos vs arboreal species like the fruit based gel foods.

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I tried some mix for Leo they never went for it, they like the hunt

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2. Is there such a thing as too big of a cage for an adult? I like the idea of something the size of a T10 (48x24x15) for lots of customization - multiple hides, multiple substrates, cage decor, etc

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In something that big I would have more than one I would have a haremm, problem is you can only do that with either all females or 1 male several females but all must be mature and big enough as egg binding is an issue.

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3. I understand that young geckos need far less space to reduce stress, but how fast do they grow? Can you start with a 10-20gal footprint terrarium then move to something bigger?

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Depends how good they eat usually people start small and house 1 adult in a 20 gallons floor space which is more than enough for a single individual.

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4. Being nocturnal I assume that a CHE would be best, but do they need visible light to know where to bask when needed? Probably a silly question

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Not necessarily I have use UTH with mine, not a fan of bulbs that can break.

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5. Can sphagnum moss be used safely for moist hide substrate?

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Yes

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6. I've read everything from tile, repti-carpet, and paper-towels as substrate plus occasionally eco-earth (dried out) for digging enrichment. Is there a 'best' or is it what you feel like cleaning up?

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unprincipled news paper for quick cleaning is best

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7. Is there a big difference in personality / health between genders? Any worry of egg-binding in non-breeding females?

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No and it can happen they can produce eggs without the presence of a male.

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8. Most I've seen are sold young, some tiny some a few inches - any pros/cons with purchase age?

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Raising a baby is fun and they will get used to you, buying an adult can be more of an issue they might be more aggressive and bite.

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9. As for supplements I've read that its is suggested to leave the calcium+d3 down in the cage at all times, as well as dust insects with both that and vitamin powder- but the recommended supplement schedules are all over the place from every feeding to once a week or less. Is vitamin A toxicity something common to them? I have not had to supplement a reptile since my iguana 15 years ago lol.

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I have always kept a small dish of calcium with D3 vitamins and always dusted insect and most people do.

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10. In the winter my house is 20-40% humidity, but in the summer that can be as high as 50-65% just in the house - will the ambient high humidity in the summer cause issues? I can add humidity for shed when needed, removing it is another story

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Your leo will be fine

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My ideal habitat would have a lot of natural rock, slate tiles, homemade grout structures, and easily removable areas of repti-carpet for quick clean up. Possibly a removable section of eco-earth for digging that was opposite of the feeding area, unless they will just eat it. Sorry for the word wall ;/

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Repti carpet is great until your gecko tear up a toe because it get caught in it, I do not recommend it and I would stay away from anything that can cause impaction.

Impaction is a big problem with these guys so loose substrates are not recommended. I keep mine on newspaper with moist hides containing sphagnum moss.

Mine primarily eat dubia that have been dusted with Ca powder. I don't raise them, just by 50 periodically and keep fresh fruit/veggies in front of the roaches. When I run out of roaches I get more.

Some people feed crickets but I don't like them - they are noisy, escape easily, and eat gecko toes. Dubia are easy to contain in a dish with smooth vertical walls since they can't jump and don't climb smooth surfaces easily.

Thanks Deb. That helps a lot. I really appreciate it. Looking at getting a giant or super giant male, so I guess I'll just need a T1 or a T3 eventually or something equivalent. I just hate top-opening cages, so I'd like something with front opening doors.

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

Recently I have been torn between a second BP or a lizard - and have been looking at a thousand species - from Ackies (need too much space right now) to blue-tongues (brumation honestly scares me lol), and bearded dragons seem too sensitive as far as UVB and the bugs they can/can't eat plus veggies to prep etc. Leo's have more pros than cons from what I have learned by reading, but I have a few questions that I hope someone with leos can answer.

Deborah nailed it, but I'll give my two cents on a your questions, but only add anything other than a one word or one sentence answer where it's necessary. For what it's worth, I have 3 Leopard Geckos Females and I love them all. They all have unique personalities and are all beautiful and all very different morphs. My only regret is they I started out with three young females and one big cage (like you want to do) and long-term that did not work because of dominance issues. 1 cage went to 2 and soon, for their own good, not necessarily for absolute necessity and safety (like 1 cage to 2 cages was), I will be moving from 2 cage for 3 geckos to 3 cages for 3 geckos, all 3X2' cages. I'll explain more on that in a moment. If I had to do it all over again, knowing my space requirements, I am not sure I would have gotten 3 leopard geckos. However, I am committed and I love them all, so they are here for the duration.

1. Are mealworms an acceptable staple food source, with occasional roaches or other worms for variety? (I raise mealworms anyway and have read that they can eat all life stages)

​Yes. Very important that they are a) gut loaded properly (you seem to address that well in your following post) and b) calcium (reptile vitamin with d3) dusted at least 3X a week and vitamin (reptile vitamins) dusted 1-2X a week. However, variety in prey is good for Leopard Geckos, IMO, and from what I've read. I believe prey variety is less important if you are adequately gut loading your prey and with variety in the preys diet. Breeders often do what's easy. Leopard Geckos tend to love mealworms. I feed mealworms 1-2X a week and Dubai 1-2 a week. As an occasional treat (1x a month) they get a wax worm or two (gecko crack) and I offer a superworm or two 1-2X a month as well (2 of my geckos go insane for those as well, but 1 refuses them entirely). I believe Dubai's are easier to digest and are more protein packed, although they don't seem to like them as much. They do eat them, however. They also last a long time, and since I don't keep a colony of mealworms, prefer that.


I have also read where some people use repashy "grub pie" for geckos as a supplemental food but I'm not sure this of for leos vs arboreal species like the fruit based gel foods.

Zero luck here. Leopard Gecko's like to hunt! They want it live and moving!

2. Is there such a thing as too big of a cage for an adult? I like the idea of something the size of a T10 (48x24x15) for lots of customization - multiple hides, multiple substrates, cage decor, etc

​I do not think so. I currently have one in a 3X2' and two in another 3X2', soon to be 3 in three separate 3X2's. They will use the room. They like a temp gradient and enjoy moving around, especially at night. I use a food dish, but I imagine they would run all around the tank hunting if they had to. Mine run around anyway, and usually come to the front of the tank to beg for food or just see what I am doing at night.

I would not get tempted to get more than one just because you have a large tank though. Mine started fighting, almost to the death (all females that grew up together from babies) at 5 years of age. I separated them immediately, but they really are solitary creatures. They will use extra space, but won't necessarily appreciate, or get along with another tank mate just because they have extra space.

3. I understand that young geckos need far less space to reduce stress, but how fast do they grow? Can you start with a 10-20gal footprint terrarium then move to something bigger?

4. Being nocturnal I assume that a CHE would be best, but do they need visible light to know where to bask when needed? Probably a silly question

No. I have a fluorescent light in my gecko tanks for day/night cycle but temps are constant with a RHP and Heat Tape for the hot side and nothing on the cool side. CHE and/or a UTH will work great depending on room temps. They like belly heat. However, night temps can drop into the mid 70's for them ambient and cool side. Day temps should be high 70's to low 80's cool side, low 80's ambient, and 88-90F hot spot. That hot spot should be consistent for digestion.

5. Can sphagnum moss be used safely for moist hide substrate?

Yes.

6. I've read everything from tile, repti-carpet, and paper-towels as substrate plus occasionally eco-earth (dried out) for digging enrichment. Is there a 'best' or is it what you feel like cleaning up?

I use printless newspaper. They occasionally burrow in between it, but mostly use their hides. I love the printless newspaper. The use the bathroom pretty regularly, but one cool thing about leopard geckos, is that they tend to use the same bathroom spot like clockwork once they pick one they like. Once they find "the spot" you can pretty much rely on it and spot clean their as needed and everywhere else weekly or less.

7. Is there a big difference in personality / health between genders? Any worry of egg-binding in non-breeding females?

I've only kept females and they tend to be more available, or so I've heard. Not sure about general health, but apparently, males live much longer. Females I believe average 10-15 years or so and males 15-20+.

8. Most I've seen are sold young, some tiny some a few inches - any pros/cons with purchase age?

Little ones can be delicate and squirmy. I would not order one under 25-30G (adult size is usually about 50-70G) and would not buy one in person that doesn't seem very chill under 20-25g.

9. As for supplements I've read that its is suggested to leave the calcium+d3 down in the cage at all times, as well as dust insects with both that and vitamin powder- but the recommended supplement schedules are all over the place from every feeding to once a week or less. Is vitamin A toxicity something common to them? I have not had to supplement a reptile since my iguana 15 years ago lol.

See above. I've heard too much vitamin "something" is not good for them. Hence only dusting vitamin powder 2X a week, plus whatever is in the prey. Calcium is really important though. 3X a week plus, yes, leave it in a shallow dish. They lick it if they need it.

10. In the winter my house is 20-40% humidity, but in the summer that can be as high as 50-65% just in the house - will the ambient high humidity in the summer cause issues? I can add humidity for shed when needed, removing it is another story

No. They will be fine. My house is the same pretty much. I keep a moist hide to help with shedding and because they tend to like it, in the cage, on the cool side, all year round. I would do that, especially if you have the space in a nice sized tank. High humidity in the summer is another reason to use a substrate that doesn't hold too much humidity though.

My ideal habitat would have a lot of natural rock, slate tiles, homemade grout structures, and easily removable areas of repti-carpet for quick clean up. Possibly a removable section of eco-earth for digging that was opposite of the feeding area, unless they will just eat it. Sorry for the word wall ;/

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As an alternative idea, if you're inclined toward DIY...
I found a cheap glass shop near me and (with some practice drilling glass on aquariums) modified a 20 gallon high to be a front opening cage for my leo. The footprint of this fit my available space better than a 20 long, has roughly the same space in sq inches, and I wanted to skip the top opening lid too.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ff1eea2436.jpg

I think the whole thing came out around $75 including the UTH using my existing thermostat and hides. The picture was from a dry fit while I waited on the silicone for the glass tracks to cure fully.

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Thanks! Yeah, I've been reading your posts, Carra is super cute BTW!
I'm looking at getting a male since they are bigger and the more I read the more I'd rather spoil one than have to deal with bullying later on and potential fighting / injury if housing 2 females. I really like the giants / super giants too, but don't really have a preferred color morph. The reason I was looking at larger enclosures was since I was looking at larger geckos. From all the videos I've watched they seem like really active creatures and I'd love to give them all the room they'd use. Both me and my fiance are night owls so I also like that they are nocturnal.

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

Thanks! Yeah, I've been reading your posts, Carra is super cute BTW!
I'm looking at getting a male since they are bigger and the more I read the more I'd rather spoil one than have to deal with bullying later on and potential fighting / injury if housing 2 females. I really like the giants / super giants too, but don't really have a preferred color morph. The reason I was looking at larger enclosures was since I was looking at larger geckos. From all the videos I've watched they seem like really active creatures and I'd love to give them all the room they'd use. Both me and my fiance are night owls so I also like that they are nocturnal.

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Awwww, thanks. Yeah, Carra is a looker alright! Cleo is the real lover though. Hard to play favorites :).

Let me/us know if you have other questions. Feel free to PM me anytime.

Good luck on your search.

I have 1 of each: a blue tongue skink, a bearded dragon and a Leo. Here is my take on each and if you still want a leo, the above posts are good info.

BTS: the tank size for an adult should be at minimum 4 foot by 2 foot. Height matters more for adjusting the basking light and getting the right temps and BTS are terrible climbers (Some don't even bother).
They bask but I see that AP is working on special PVC cages for basking lizards, so that may be a good option over a T10. Depending on species, the humidity requirement varies. For northerns, low humidity with a humid hide works. For Indonesians and its tropical cousins, a humidity of 50-60% at minimum is needed so add a humid hide or use eco earth/cypress mulch. Some likes to dig, others don't care for it. Mine never digged into his substrate. He prefers his hide made of bricks or just lay flat out in the open while he sleeps.

Diet: easy and flexible. There is an ongoing debate on that but I'm in the camp of feeding mine wet dog food (grain free) mixed with his salad, supplements, snails and insect feeders. BTS are easy to feed and as adults will only need to be fed 1 meal a week. The portion should not be bigger than their head. As adults, they need calcium +d3 supplements 2x a week and multivitamin once a week.

Not all BTS brumate! Mine is almost 2 or 3 years old. Perhaps it never gets cold enough for him to do so. He does slow down in the winter by sleeping more but his appetite is always there. He knows to wake up for dinner when I call his name and gently knock on his basking tile. If they do brumate, it is no big deal. Make sure they have water, they have a place to sleep and leave a small amount of food every other week to see if it is interested. They do wake up now and then to drink or take a bite.

And no egg binding. The females give birth.

So far my favorite to keep. They do observe you and respond to their surroundings. Hardy, easy to handle, and have their own likes and dislikes and they will gladly tell you which. Morphs (?) are still in the works and pricey. Many easterns are still wild caught so make sure to ask before you buy.

Beardies: At minimum, a 75 gallon or 4 foot by 16 or 24" tank. Docile, friendly, their diet is more strict and getting the right lights from the start is a must. With a BTS who can go without UVB, you cannot go wrong with yours when it comes to beardies. Their number one complaint is picky eating of their salad. And they need salad in their diet almost every day. I think they are great for people who like to do the extra work.

Leos: they are awesome. Small size, easy to care for, hardy as a freaking rock, easy everything... Wow, people are right that they are the #1 best beginner pet lizard. I started mine with a young adult. The taming was easy though took some time. I feed mine mostly mealworms which makes it even better because I order 500 at a time, put them in the fridge, and gutload them 48 hours before feeding. I also give him variety like butterworms and black soldier fly larvae. One thing most people overlook and probably main reason of them commonly found in ads looking for homes is their longevity. They live the LONGEST compared to a beardie and BTS. There is a male Leo still breeding at age 27 years! It is a long, long term commitment not to be taken lightly.

Btw, if you want a giant, Tremper is the breeder who found the giant line and is still breeding and selling today. I had seen his Leos and they are gorgeous. However, they really are no different than a regular Leo that grew a few inches bigger. And they come with a hefty price tag for that size. Due to the high number of Leo's needing homes, and I wish my husband did this instead of gifting me mine, please see if you can adopt one. Most come with their tanks and set up.

Thanks Cheese, yeah - BTS are on my wish list (so are red ackies OMG they are awesome), but man they are hard to find! I've found one breeder that does not import and she's got a 2 year wait list. I also love the beardies that I've fostered, but right now (and for the foreseeable future) I just don't have the space.
If I have an animal, it's got to have the biggest cage I can afford - The one I re-homed went to someone with a 125 gal aquarium. I had been fostering a corn snake a while back in a 40 gal tank and felt like she was super-super cramped. She was nearly 5 feet long and far more active than the ball python. So the leos just seem perfect.

Everything else has pretty much been said.

But on the topic of food:
Mealworms are great! I feed my Leo's mealies with an occassional dubias snack for the ones who actually eat them. A couple have been picky.

Vitamin deficiencies are also on Vitamin A and B(iirc) as well as the far more common calcium deficiency. Symptoms for that are usually eye problems, big swollen eyebrows and eye infections. I mix a little bit of the all purpose reptile vitamins in with my calcium. You can leave the dish in there 24/7. Every now and then, drop a few mealies in there to make sure they do eat the vitamins, but most are good enough to eat them on thier own.

Substrate:
If you are using a loose substrate, dry coconut fiber is what I reccomend. It's pretty fine and passes digestion fairly easily for them. Mine rarely eat it since I feed mealies from a dish . Still keep an eye on the feces tho. If they look like coco fiber turds, back to tile or paper with them. Better safe than sorry.

I never use sand unless it's a very fine dust in a 'display' cage. The main substrate there is slate rocks and large river stones. The sand is just a little bit to get the crevices in the slate rocks. The natural habitat for these guys are rocky deserts, not Sandy ones. Again... always check the poop. If they're eating the sand, out with it.

And 11. Should I quarantine my Leopard Gecko?

Yes-Yes you should. Leopard Geckos are vectors for many reptile pathogens.

I will be doing a 90 QT without sign of illness. I plan on per-treating the cage with mite spray, and possibly wiping down the beast as well upon arrival. I will also be doing a fecal test for parasites and is anything is or becomes weird, I can run some bloodwork as well. Everything I get has a QT period, always have been thorough with de-worming following protocol even for my goldfish when I was into them lol.

But out of curiosity can lizards and snakes share viruses? (like ferrets how can get both feline or canine distemper) - I have spent all my time so far on nutrition and husbandry, haven't gotten to pathology yet

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

I will be doing a 90 QT without sign of illness. I plan on per-treating the cage with mite spray, and possibly wiping down the beast as well upon arrival. I will also be doing a fecal test for parasites and is anything is or becomes weird, I can run some bloodwork as well. Everything I get has a QT period, always have been thorough with de-worming following protocol even for my goldfish when I was into them lol.

But out of curiosity can lizards and snakes share viruses? (like ferrets how can get both feline or canine distemper) - I have spent all my time so far on nutrition and husbandry, haven't gotten to pathology yet

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I'm sure they share some parasites but not most viruses... Lizards and snakes are related but have branched off in the evolution tree so far away from each other, along with most viruses and other pathogens evolving with their corresponding species, it is highly unlikely. Like feline distemper (I believe is related to the dog parvovirus) cannot transmit to canines, although both are dangerous and can be fatal to its hosts.

I am not sure about the mites. Lizards do carry their own mites, not the same as snake mites. However, for a leo, they have no scales: it is all skin with little bumps. If there is a sucker on it, it would be very difficult to miss. Hence, I know no leo owners, and most lizard owners in general, treating for mites in advance. Just don't see the benefit in it and there is a risk of harm to them if any mite spray residue is left behind because most lizards, including leos, LICK their environment. They get to know what is around them by taste. That is why any loose substrate is a bad idea: they will lick it with their sticky tongue and swallow whatever they touched. So I personally would not recommend pretreating the tank for the Leo.

Same for intestinal parasites. Almost all lizards carry some in them as long as they eat live insects. Good news is that healthy lizards keep them in check on their own. Crickets are notorious for carrying pinworms but all insects are susceptible to any worms. The general rule in lizard care for intestinal parasites is: leave it alone unless the parasite load is too much and causing discomfort or illness in the lizard. If you give the wrong dosage of dewormers, you can make your lizard very sick. Staying too long on the dewormer can also make it very sick. Even after your lizard is off the dewormer, it can feel so unwell it won't eat for several more days. Some vets who claim to know reptiles make terrible mistakes in wanting to rid all of the parasites by aggressively dosing the poor lizard. The truth is, if your lizard poops look good, it is eating and shedding, it is fine. If your lizard is sick to begin with, then after it recovers, checking for and cutting down the parasite load will help. Just don't buy online OTC Panacur and try to DIY. The wrong dosage can kill your lizard. An experienced lizard vet must make that dose for you.

I do a 30-day QT for all of my lizards. Usually you can tell from the start if you have a healthy or sick lizard. Watch how it eats : is it excited about its food or lacks interest? Is it alert when you try to pick it up? I normally avoid buying from any pet store that houses them in sand in case they already swallowed some sand.

Make sure you have 3 hides: 2 normal hides plus a humid hide. One normal hide and humid hide on the warm side and the other normal hide on the cool side.

If you decide to buy online feeders, I highly recommend Mulberry Farms. They also sell silk worms when they have it in stock or you can grow your own.

Thanks so much. I have no other lizards so at least that is a plus. I'll be sure to house it as far as possible from my bp and avoid sharing contact with my hands / clothes in any case. So far I intend to go to the next reptile show in March as long as I find a breeder that is attending that I get a good feel for. They don't put the vendor list out until the week before or so, and I'd like to meet the lizard first in person. There is one online breeder that I would trust, but its more a gamble as to what personality I'd get. They do a ton of animals and don't have time to handle them all, so I'd like to find one that has at least had some human contact beyond feeding.

Hi! I know this is a somewhat old thread and I don't know whether you've decided to get a leo or not, but I'd like to add one thing: Leave pure calcium WITHOUT D3 in the cage at all times, as leopard geckos can overdose on D3

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