Do Ball Pythons HAVE to Eat Rats?

I have run into an issue with owning my 1 year old female ball python.

I admit I didn't do enough research before getting her. I wasn't in the greatest relationship when I got her and I basically just did what he wanted. When we broke up I kept Sunny, the snake, because I didn't think he could care for her properly. After all I always was the one that cared for her and the one time I asked him to feed her he forgot.

I realised that Sunny will eventually require rats. The issue is that I've owned rats as pets for years and I cannot handle the thought of getting one and feeding it to her. I know for a fact that I will not have the strength to do it. Just a glance at it and it'll be over, I'll keep it as a pet.

So what do I do? Can she live off of mice if I give her several? Will she not be healthy if she did? I want her to have the best life I can give her. If that requires feeding rats I will have to find her a new home as much as that pains me to do such a thing.

Do you feed live? Maybe it would be easier for you to feed frozen thawed rats? A BP can eat quiet a few mice per feeding and it will eventually get expensive.

I'm sorry, but it's really better for them to eat rats. Rats give them all of their nutrients, and if they are started on small rats, the size of their food will grow with the snake. Mice are given sometimes to younger BPs, but the transition to rats can be tough, and might involve rubbing dead rat scent on the mouse anyway to entice her (which is just as bad as giving the snake a rat).

In my experience, F/T isn't bad at all because the rat is dead when you purchase it; I dropped a live rat pup in there once for my snake's first feed with me, and it was awful to watch for me. F/T guarantees that you won't feel any pity for the rat because you're not the one ending its life.

As far as I know, mice CAN be given to BPs for their whole life, but the nutrients might not be suitable long-term, and it's a pain to have to feed several mice instead of one large rat, especially since you have a female and she'll need large rats when she's to her full length.

Currently I feed her one adult live mouse a week because that's what the breeder told me. Is that incorrect? Does she need more?

I didn't think about frozen. If she would take it then it would definatly be easier for me to feed rats. I tried once to feed her a frozen mouse but she wouldnt eat it. Although it was the first feeding since I got her and maybe she was scared.

They do not have to eat rats. I have several females that are strict mousers that reliably lay 10-12 eggs every year.

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Originally Posted by RustHeart

Currently I feed her one adult live mouse a week because that's what the breeder told me. Is that incorrect? Does she need more?
I didn't think about frozen. If she would take it then it would definatly be easier for me to feed rats. I tried once to feed her a frozen mouse but she wouldnt eat it. Although it was the first feeding since I got her and maybe she was scared.

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She would probably take F/T pretty easily with a little persistance. There are also many tricks people have used to switch.

Now I am worried she isn't being fed enough. It seems like most people are feeding small rats and and adult rats. It doesn't seem like a single mouse is enough.
I'm out of state in school living in a dorm and for obvious reasons Sunny can't be with me. So a friend of mine has been caring for her and I haven't thought much about her until now. But now I'm worried. How can we judge how much she should be eating?

As others pointed out, mice have less nutritional content....more specifically, much less fat. Rats contain a very high percentage of fat that allows speedy growth in snakes. However, I believe you can feed most snakes a different diet and be perfectly ok.....in fact maybe 10 years ago there was an enormous push to feed African Soft Fur rats to BP's and some keepers still do.....but most people abandoned the idea once they discovered ASF's grow very slowly, eat through tubs, are hard to find, and have nasty little attitudes.

So in summary, a BP's diet would naturally be ASF rats, but people fed normal rats instead for convenience reasons while maintaining nutritional value. BUT mice do lack nutritional value so unless the animal won't eat them, there's no logical reason to feed them.

I assume you're feeding live....why not frozen thawed?

...a mouse eating BP is an expensive animal, and a slow growing animal in the adult stage..

Feed rats, that's my advice. You're sacrificing nutrition for your animal due to your own feelings.

No they do not and no it's not better for them.

Gram per gram of food it's all the same now the difference is, it will be better for YOU which ultimately is not the most important.


The advantage of feeding rats is that you will only have to feed one to an adult whereas mice you will have to feed multiples.

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Originally Posted by RustHeart

Now I am worried she isn't being fed enough. It seems like most people are feeding small rats and and adult rats. It doesn't seem like a single mouse is enough.
I'm out of state in school living in a dorm and for obvious reasons Sunny can't be with me. So a friend of mine has been caring for her and I haven't thought much about her until now. But now I'm worried. How can we judge how much she should be eating?

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Mice are okay for young BP's. It would be easier if we knew her weight to be able to judge what size of prey she should be eating

I just asked my friend to weight her for me. We'll have to wait until she does.
I don't know why I didn't think of frozen. I just got upset and worried I backed myself into a corner. I really don't want to be irresponsible but I feel like I have been.

I'll do everything i can to get her switched to frozen rats now. If for some reason she just won't do it I will find her someone who can feed live so she can be healthy. I don't want my feelings to hinder her.

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Originally Posted by RustHeart

Currently I feed her one adult live mouse a week because that's what the breeder told me. Is that incorrect? Does she need more?

I didn't think about frozen. If she would take it then it would definatly be easier for me to feed rats. I tried once to feed her a frozen mouse but she wouldnt eat it. Although it was the first feeding since I got her and maybe she was scared.

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Please get her on f/t (or freshly pre-killed) adult mice A.S.A.P- as bites from mice OR rats can maim or kill a snake when the inevitable slip-up occurs. The veterinary
care to patch her up from such a bite & fight the infection can get expensive, not to mention painful for the snake. There are techniques to transition a snake that is
only wanting live, but please do consider this.

F/T -either mice or rats- is the way to go. You must thaw correctly though & warm the prey up just before offering (use a blow-dryer), so the snake thinks it's alive. ;)

Mice have as much nutrition as rats...it's just that an adult BP may need multiples to be fed adequately...it's only a convenience issue. And btw, I had pet rats long
before I ever got into snakes, so I get where you're coming from. Plus live rats are far more dangerous to your snake.

Depending on what she weighs- her current size- she doesn't sound all that under-fed to me if she's been consuming one adult mouse per week. It's often
healthier for a snake to grow slowly & it's preferable they do not pack on excessive fat...some owners over-feed their snakes & that's not good either. At
a year old, I doubt that what you've been feeding her has been harmful (as in far too little) & you're obviously a caring owner. I'm glad you came here to
help you sort this out.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No they do not and no it's not better for them.

Gram per gram of food it's all the same now the difference is, it will be better for YOU which ultimately is not the most important.


The advantage of feeding rats is that you will only have to feed one to an adult whereas mice you will have to feed multiples.

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This ^ ^ ^ ^ ^! :gj: And I've seen charts analyzing the nutrients of rodents, rats & mice are very close & perfectly adequate either way, so don't worry about that.

Ill say it again....Though it's minor, they are not the same in terms of nutrition. Especially when feeding adult rats vs adult mice. BUT to state the point that there's no need to feed multiples of mice is logical.

https://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Different fat percentages, protein, crude matter. I listened to an hour conversation about this from the person who produced my female JCP....and he happens to be the head zookeeper of reptiles at the Santa Barbara zoo. Once again, minor differences....but there are differences.

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Originally Posted by KevinK

Ill say it again....Though it's minor, they are not the same in terms of nutrition. Especially when feeding adult rats vs adult mice. BUT to state the point that there's no need to feed multiples of mice is logical.

https://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Different fat percentages, protein, crude matter. I listened to an hour conversation about this from the person who produced my female JCP....and he happens to be the head zookeeper of reptiles at the Santa Barbara zoo. Once again, minor differences....but there are differences.

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Well the thing is, ball pythons did NOT evolve eating domestic rats either...just saying. And the Santa Barbara zoo is pretty small...I went to college in S.B. ;)

I suspect that you could likewise come up with a PERFECT diet for humans too, yet we all survive without such a thing (some better than others, yes) and no one suggests we should all eat identical food. Why is that?

So I am thinking that my best choice is to keep her on mice for now but switch to frozen. Then when I get out of school, which will be 6 months at the most, I will switch to frozen rats. This is purely because I don't want to have to ask my friend to switch it up so much. Especially since she's already doing me a huge favor for caring for my snake and paying for her food for this long. Plus if young ball pythons can eat mice just fine it should be okay.

I am seeing two different options here about which is better. I think it'll be best to go with frozen rats just because it would be easier than doing multible mice. As long as its already dead I dont think I will have an issue emotionally to feed it.

Plus if it's healthier I defiantly want her to have the more healthy option. I understand some people say its the same health wise but more convenient and possibly healthier seems good to me. Sounds like a win win.

My friend doesn't have a way to weigh her so I have to wait until she gets one. So I probably won't get the weight today. I really hope she's still small enough for a single mouse and she hasnt been underfed. I'd feel terrible.

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Originally Posted by RustHeart

I just asked my friend to weight her for me. We'll have to wait until she does.
I don't know why I didn't think of frozen. I just got upset and worried I backed myself into a corner. I really don't want to be irresponsible but I feel like I have been.

I'll do everything i can to get her switched to frozen rats now. If for some reason she just won't do it I will find her someone who can feed live so she can be healthy. I don't want my feelings to hinder her.

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I applaud you for trying to do things right. You've f0und a great place to learn.

My advice: read, read and read some more. There's a lot to learn, but once you've got it sorted out BPs are very easy to keep and make awesome pets.

Keep up the good work, you'll get there...and the end results will be rewarding for you and your snake.

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

They do not have to eat rats. I have several females that are strict mousers that reliably lay 10-12 eggs every year.

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Yeah .... they can be easily fed on frozen thawed XL mice , rats , chicks or even Multies .. some people mix them all up to Lee things interesting...

Pretty sure recent studies show that Mice and Rats are virtually identical nutritionally-wise .

When the Royal gets to a decent size It's just easier to feed one rat rather than two , three or more XL Mice .

In my area frozen small rats are SIX times more expensive than XL mice - so feeding a rat is not really a saving much if anything .

Frozen thawed are much cheaper and more much convenient than feeding live ones ..


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Originally Posted by Deborah

No they do not and no it's not better for them.

Gram per gram of food it's all the same now the difference is, it will be better for YOU which ultimately is not the most important.


The advantage of feeding rats is that you will only have to feed one to an adult whereas mice you will have to feed multiples.

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Exactly !


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Actually there's something to be said for offering various prey items to our snakes...that is, if we truly want to replicate how they live in the "real world"?
And we haven't even included ASFs (African soft furred rats) in this discussion either? https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...46-ASF-VS-Rats

When I used to breed mice, rats, dwarf hamsters & a few gerbils, I did exactly that, but remember that all of our domestic rodents are much fatter than their
wild counter-parts (they have a "cushy" life & eat lots more grain instead of plants & insects), and in any event, BPs can be picky about food so offering them
variety can backfire. My rat snakes & king snakes were never fussy about variety though & it's probably good for them.

[I]
As others pointed out, mice have less nutritional content....more specifically, much less fat. Rats contain a very high percentage of fat that allows speedy growth in snakes. However, I believe you can feed most snakes a different diet and be perfectly ok.....in fact maybe 10 years ago there was an enormous push to feed African Soft Fur rats to BP's and some keepers still do.....but most people abandoned the idea once they discovered ASF's grow very slowly, eat through tubs, are hard to find, and have nasty little attitudes.

So in summary, a BP's diet would naturally be ASF rats, but people fed normal rats instead for convenience reasons while maintaining nutritional value. BUT mice do lack nutritional value so unless the animal won't eat them, there's no logical reason to feed them
[/I]

I did mention ASF's actually......

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Well the thing is, ball pythons did NOT evolve eating domestic rats either...just saying. And the Santa Barbara zoo is pretty small...I went to college in S.B. ;)

I suspect that you could likewise come up with a PERFECT diet for humans too, yet we all survive without such a thing (some better than others, yes) and no one suggests we should all eat identical food. Why is that?

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As others pointed out, mice have less nutritional content....more specifically, much less fat. Rats contain a very high percentage of fat that allows speedy growth in snakes. However, I believe you can feed most snakes a different diet and be perfectly ok.....in fact maybe 10 years ago there was an enormous push to feed African Soft Fur rats to BP's and some keepers still do.....but most people abandoned the idea once they discovered ASF's grow very slowly, eat through tubs, are hard to find, and have nasty little attitudes.

So in summary, a BP's diet would naturally be ASF rats, but people fed normal rats instead for convenience reasons while maintaining nutritional value. BUT mice do lack nutritional value so unless the animal won't eat them, there's no logical reason to feed them
[[/B][/B]/I]

I did mention ASF's actually......[/QUOTE]

Nobody seems to have mentioned gerbils for ball pythons. I've had ball pythons that preferred rats to mice, and ball pythons that preferred mice to rats. But none turned down a gerbil.

Cons to gerbils is slow breeding, small litters and relatively high price if purchased. But gerbil odor is much less offensive than either mice or rats.

I agree with others that frozen/thawed rats is the best way to go.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Nobody seems to have mentioned gerbils for ball pythons. I've had ball pythons that preferred rats to mice, and ball pythons that preferred mice to rats. But none turned down a gerbil.

Cons to gerbils is slow breeding, small litters and relatively high price if purchased. But gerbil odor is much less offensive than either mice or rats.

I agree with others that frozen/thawed rats is the best way to go.

Good luck.

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I touched on gerbils in post #20 (& BPs love hamsters too) but I agree they aren't "practical". Feeding snakes in captivity is always a compromise of sorts compared
to what all they'd happily snag in the wild. Most pet snakes don't fixate on specific prey & refuse others as much as BPs do, but then again, they aren't working up the
appetite they might in the wild either? And hey, maybe the reason they become fussy feeders in captivity is all the extra fat content in their domestic rodents, that
signals their body that they don't need food yet? I've always wondered how BPs could survive in the wild with the eating habits they have in captivity, lol. :confusd:

I'll leave it to you beep-keepers to figure them out...I had BPs many years ago, but not currently.

Problem with gerbils they are the equivalent of crack for BP, so not the best idea, they don't produce well, expensive to buy and if the animal was to be re-homed it would be a lot more problematic if it's eating gerbils, because trying to switch back a BP from gerbils is very very very hard.

Feeding what works and is readily available is always the best option.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No they do not and no it's not better for them.

Gram per gram of food it's all the same now the difference is, it will be better for YOU which ultimately is not the most important.


The advantage of feeding rats is that you will only have to feed one to an adult where as mice you will have to feed multiples.

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This right here.
Staying on mice wont be a problem as long as you dont mind feeding multiples and possibly more often.
I also have a couple breeders that wont touch a rat and havent had a problem with their growth or reproduction.
I wouldnt pay much attention to anyone that is telling you they MUST eat rats....

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

This right here.
Staying on mice wont be a problem as long as you dont mind feeding multiples and possibly more often.
I also have a couple breeders that wont touch a rat and havent had a problem with their growth or reproduction.
I wouldnt pay much attention to anyone that is telling you they MUST eat rats....

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Apparently it's written in stone somewhere ..and has been passed through the generations :)

Bit like the old tale where your body gets no water from tea / coffee / soft drinks and cordials .... it has to be water ..


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Seems to be conflicting opinions here. Anyone got anything to back it up?

UPDATE

Sunny is 1 lb 10 oz. How much should she be eating?

This should help...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1ab45604d6.jpg

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Originally Posted by RustHeart

UPDATE

Sunny is 1 lb 10 oz. How much should she be eating?

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Thats roughly 738 grams

Rats are 100% recommended diet, if they will take them they will be much happier and healthier, as some have said they CAN eat mice, but you would need to feed an adult 4-5 adult mice to equal a full sized meal. I would urge you to try f/t and if you are not able to handle it, (and I mean this in no way to sound heartless) it is probably best to find a home that would. I also struggle with feeding rats, as I do not want to see any animal dead, but these are wild animals and rat eaters by nature. I always justify it as rats have a short lifespan and reproduce in large numbers essentially over night whereas the snake takes a lot more time, energy, and has about 8x the maximum life span of a rat. I know it is hard, but you need to do the best thing you can for the animal you brought into your home.

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Originally Posted by Cam the Snake Man

Rats are 100% recommended diet, if they will take them they will be much happier and healthier,

these are wild animals and rat eaters by nature.

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Neither of these two cuts hold any water.......
An animal with proper husbandry is the goal.

They are also opportunistic feeders. They have been seen eating all kinds of rodents and birds in the wild as well as a house mate when some people try to keep multiples in the same enclosure.

I have kept snakes for years, like so many others on this form. Long story short, when a I started keeping balls about 5 years ago I started with hoppers, and now I feed jumbo mice every 5 days. I keep all males. As mentioned before and by so many, husbandry is what’s most important. Here’s their age and weights just for reference. 5/14=1573grams, 7/14=1563grams, 8/16=1004grams, and 11/16=963grams. Yeah if I had females I definitely use rats, but mice sure seem to be working for me. And the big boys barely eat for half a year, 😉. So many misconceptions and repeated nonsense. There are so many ways to do something right. ✌️

If you go with frozen thawed. I feed frozen thawed for safety reasons and because i get it in packs of 5 to 10 and cost me alot less. my 7 month old ball before i adopted her was on live for its entire life. It took me about 3 weeks to transfer her. My trick was i would put in warm water for about half hour or an hour to fully dethaw the rat. Dry the rat off compeletly. Blow dry it to warm it up. Get feeding tongs its a must unless you want to risk getting bit. Grab the rat by the back of the neck or mouse whichever you decide to do. And make it do a little head bobbing/dance to indicate its still alive. It worked everytime with mine. When they have it and are constricting you can also give the rat a little bit of tugs not hard very lightly. Mine was very stubborn. My new one again has been on live its entire life just adopted her friday. Previous owner tried f/t but kept getting bit trying. Im stubborn even if she gets me i will continue to do f/t unless she starts losing alot of weight. Shes 2+ years old weighs about 1700 grams so the person told me. Im going to weigh her tonight to see. I will be doing the exact same methods and transfering her over. It sometimes can take months. Dont worry just keep track of weight while doing it and make sure they dont lose alot of weight a small amount is okay. Hope this helps.

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Bumping old topic, but I have to put my 2 cents in... it is ignorant to think that you MUST feed rats to keep a ball pythons healthy.
Royal Pythons can live healthy feeding on a variety of rodents or even birds.
Mice are fine, they are just small so you have to feed a bunch of them to the snake.
My pythons will eat mice or rats and even switch back and forth. One big part of feeding response is good husbandry. Of course, some of these snakes have stubborn personalities when it comes to feeding. I have a couple like that myself.


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https://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp


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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

https://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp


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Cool chart. Absolutely no idea what the numbers mean. But it does look impressive.

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Originally Posted by RustHeart

So I am thinking that my best choice is to keep her on mice for now but switch to frozen. Then when I get out of school, which will be 6 months at the most, I will switch to frozen rats. This is purely because I don't want to have to ask my friend to switch it up so much. Especially since she's already doing me a huge favor for caring for my snake and paying for her food for this long. Plus if young ball pythons can eat mice just fine it should be okay.

I am seeing two different options here about which is better. I think it'll be best to go with frozen rats just because it would be easier than doing multible mice. As long as its already dead I dont think I will have an issue emotionally to feed it.

Plus if it's healthier I defiantly want her to have the more healthy option. I understand some people say its the same health wise but more convenient and possibly healthier seems good to me. Sounds like a win win.

My friend doesn't have a way to weigh her so I have to wait until she gets one. So I probably won't get the weight today. I really hope she's still small enough for a single mouse and she hasnt been underfed. I'd feel terrible.

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Where are you going to school?