Survivability Advice - kinks

As a preface, I have not yet seen the snake in question in person and it is not my snake. I have a co-worker bringing her daughters' new snake to the vet clinic this week for and exam and radiographs - none of my vets see snakes but I want to help her out as best I can. Its supposedly a enchi spider from petsmart that was going to be euthanized by the store for neurological issues and spinal kinking - the daughter who works at the store "saved it" however to me it sounds like a case for euthanasia.

It is 64 g and has a spinal kink about 3 inches past the head that looks to be in line with the heart or the cranial end of the liver and another one near the cloaca. The cell pics were not great so I wanted to do a quick exam my self and maybe an xray and see where the kink is in relation to the stomach and other organs. My fear is the snakes ability to swallow prey larger prey - its on mouse fuzzies per the store right now and has some trouble with these passing the kinked area.

If it can't eat proper sized prey that seems like euthanasia is the best course of action, but from those of you that breed snakes - would something with this level of kinking be a cull? My gut says yes, but I'd like some opinions before talking to her.

***I also have the names and addresses of actual reptile specialists to give to her as well, they just want my advice before going through with driving to NC or northern VA.

Neurological issues plus significant (?) spinal kinks sounds like euthanasia to me too. Hard to guess without seeing it, but since it's already having trouble
passing fuzzies, what future does it have? -not to mention the level of discomfort & inability to live a normal life.

For me as a breeder: Dual spinal kinking=Definite cull: If nothing else I would want to eliminate it from the gene pool.

A single kink in the spine: I would cull--unless the morph was prone to this (e.g. Caramel Albino), and the kink was minor and near the end of the tail.

Unfortunately sounds like probably needing euthanized. The other sad part about this story is that the source Petsmart gets their snakes from is so negligent that they'd send a snake in that condition to the store at all :(

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I have a BRB that I produced that has a neck kink in almost the same spot. He can eat just fine though his coil while he "kills" the f/t feeder is odd. He gets 2-3 small feeders instead of one typical-size feeder. He also does not have any neurological problems. The spider wobble is odd - sometimes snakes with improve over time, otherwise they get worse.

If the snake can and wants to eat on its own I would give it a chance.

If a messed up snake can eat and pass waste and shed okay, sometimes they will be fine. I have a few myself that I've taken in from other people. However if there are issues in any of those areas then I would also think euthanasia is the best choice (which sounds like it to me in this case since it's having issues passing prey). What a shame for both the snake and that kid who only wanted to help.

Sometimes you have to make the hard call and it all comes down to quality of life and one's ability to care for a special need animal.

Sometime euthanasia is the right call, but no one can judge that online.

I agree with the quality of life bit - I'm a proponent of not immediately giving up as I've had two animals with kinks and both survived to be healthy, thriving animals.

I would say it depends on the severity of the kink, whether it can eat, poop, etc. I had a boa with spinal deformities all down her body. One might have said she had neuro issues if they saw her for the first time: when you picked her up, she would always grip tightly, sometimes twisting herself all around and upside down. When she ate, she would sometimes flip her head upside down to swallow. When she was first out of her cage, she always wanted to slither backwards - it took her awhile to figure out how to go forward, but once she got straightened out she was fine.

She was six feet long, chunky and beautiful. I never had an issue with feeding her until the end. She always shed perfectly and on her own, and never had an issue with BMs. She was also super sweet, super calm, and more than once was used as an "ambassador" of sorts. I even took her into a disability studies class in college, and many folks there touched a snake for the first time.

Obviously we don't want an animal to suffer - but sometimes they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

i hatched 3 lightly kinked animals this year, all either have Black Pastel or Cinny. fortunately their kinks are very low on the body towards the tail, not crooked or twisted and have been eating and pooping great. one was just the very tip of the tail! i've talked to a few more experienced peeps who have raised (or bred) similar animals w/o issue.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Sometimes you have to make the hard call and it all comes down to quality of life and one's ability to care for a special need animal.

Sometime euthanasia is the right call, but no one can judge that online.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I agree with the quality of life bit - I'm a proponent of not immediately giving up as I've had two animals with kinks and both survived to be healthy, thriving animals...

Obviously we don't want an animal to suffer - but sometimes they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

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^ totes this!

Thanks to all of your replies, I appreciate it - knowing the opinions of people who see this sort of thing regularly helps. I will let you know what the snake looks like in person when I meet it. I told her it's most likely not going to live a good life if it can't actually get properly sized prey around the corner so to speak - I'm for QOL over keeping something alive with help. I'm hoping the neuro issues are from it being spider and whatever person is in charge at the pet store just is unfamiliar with the morph.

I just want to help them understand what they are in for if they try to raise it. Maybe it will get easier to swallow prey when it's muscles get stronger with age - but they should also know that that might not be the case.

It's mostly a matter of degree, when it comes to spinal kinks...I think we have to remember that snakes are stoic & may be living in pain when the kinks are
more than minor. Sometimes I wish they could whine, so we'd know if they're feeling bad.

I'd be more worried by the kink near the cloaca than the one in the neck with a forever pet.

The neurological problem is a given with the spider gene but if the animal can eat and thrive despite the kinks then I would be loathe to cull.

But it all comes down to what you can tell once you view the animal. It may be the best option but only you will be able to compare what you can offer compared to what the animal actually needs. :(

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

I just want to help them understand what they are in for if they try to raise it. Maybe it will get easier to swallow prey when it's muscles get stronger with age - but they should also know that that might not be the case.

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yes, the muscles get stronger as they develop and the snake learns how to control it more. but their muscles are used more for constricting prey or for their movement. their muscles help move food down their esphogus, but it doesn't force it down (and it def doesn't compact it to a nice, smaller size). that is why they will regurge if the prey is too big. unfortunately i'm afraid if this poor snake is having trouble passing mice fuzzies, it will continue to have trouble. it sounds like prey has to pass the kink to get to the stomach and i would be afraid of the snake choking b/c of the added Spider derp/wobble as it tries to pass the kink before it can spit the food. it would be a lifetime of care observed and assist feeding. and w/ the wobble, depending on severity, there would be alotta corkscrews and barrel roll type movements and times when u check on your SPider and u think they're dead b/c their flipped over but really that's how they sometimes like to coil/sleeping upside down.


the owner can give it a good fighting chance but has also has the responsibility (w/ feedback from their vets) to know when one or both (owner and/or animal) are at wits end. i know a guy that had to put down a Panda b/c of a kink. can u imagine how that feels? ugh. but i'm glad that u work w/ vets and have experience in both the healing of animals, their end of life and counseling their owners. that last part is undervalued and can be just as important in animal care.

I have had a few kinked babies hatch. I let the baby decide how bad they are. These are simple creatures. They will fail to thrive if need be, they have no reasoning center in their brain. I rehomed two kinked babies during my python breeding era. Both looked rather odd with a 90 degree kink in their back but both fed better than half of the healthy babies. One was a normal the other a pastel Yellowbelly. Both were adopted as pets for kids and everyone was happy. I have also had animals with kinks fail to thrive. No extra or additional special care was offered to these over an apparently normal baby. If it won’t eat, and begins to waste away, then think end suffering early. In short, if it wants to eat and does eat on its own, why would you choose to kill it? Even if it needs to eat small stuff. Agreed, it shouldn’t be used for breeding but plenty of people want a needy pet.

I agree 100%. Also, we will be doing a fecal as well and checking for RI. As a pet store snake I'm not sure if the weakness in swallowing is from ill health or the deformity or a combo. But I can get the x rays and lab work then send a copy with the owner for the reptile specialist, so they aren't starting with a blank slate too. I'd love to find that it has something treatable and can live a good life, that's what I hope for too.
Also one of the perks for working at a clinic is the discounts for lab work lol .

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Originally Posted by Ax01

the owner can give it a good fighting chance but has also has the responsibility (w/ feedback from their vets) to know when one or both (owner and/or animal) are at wits end. i know a guy that had to put down a Panda b/c of a kink. can u imagine how that feels? ugh. but i'm glad that u work w/ vets and have experience in both the healing of animals, their end of life and counseling their owners. that last part is undervalued and can be just as important in animal care.

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This^

Saw the little one today (79 grams, bad shed, underweight, typical pet store snake)- I don't have a lot of hope, I have some pictures that the owner gave me permission to post. (His shed is terrible and we spent a good hour talking proper husbandry even if this one doesn't make it). Also I don't see any spider in it, so the head wobble isn't from that gene- it's not severe but he bobs whenever holding it up. They are going to take him home over the weekend and discuss QOL. They still want to try feeding an appropriate sized meal, I don't know how it will go.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...568/image0.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...628/fixed1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

Saw the little one today (79 grams, bad shed, underweight, typical pet store snake)- I don't have a lot of hope, I have some pictures that the owner gave me permission to post. (His shed is terrible and we spent a good hour talking proper husbandry even if this one doesn't make it). Also I don't see any spider in it, so the head wobble isn't from that gene- it's not severe but he bobs whenever holding it up. They are going to take him home over the weekend and discuss QOL. They still want to try feeding an appropriate sized meal, I don't know how it will go.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...568/image0.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...628/fixed1.jpg

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poor lil buddy [emoji852]

He does not look too bad. That neck kink is in about the same spot and no worse than the pastel Yellowbelly I referred to in my other post. I can’t see the other kink. I think he can make it if everything is okay inside.

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Originally Posted by Ladybugzcrunch

He does not look too bad. That neck kink is in about the same spot and no worse than the pastel Yellowbelly I referred to in my other post. I can’t see the other kink. I think he can make it if everything is okay inside.

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I agree. I would be feeding two half-size feeders instead of one full-size feeder though, probably for life.