Frozen VS Live

So out of curiosity I figured I would ask a simple question.

Live feeding vs frozen feeding? I would love to hear some interesting information I may or may not currently know.

As for my personal opinion, I am a firm believer in live feeding after I rescued my boy Larry. I had never had a snake before and at the place I worked a ball python with a tank and the whole kit and kaboodle was brought in and surrendered. As an employee I was offered to take him home for free. My manager told me nobody else would because he was too big and too much was unknown. So I decided I will take him and suddenly I have a full grown male ball python in my bedroom. It was mid-winter at this point and according to his old owner he hadn't eaten in 4 months. After spending a month or 2 trying frozen he refused and started losing weight. At this point I was very against live feeding but I didn't know what else to do. So i bought him his rat and dropped it in. Instantly he killed it and has not refused a single live rat since. He is actually in progress of nomming one down as I type this. Yes, I am aware winter fasting is common in ball pythons but his weight loss was alarming and the vet said I needed to assist feed or try live.

I think live feeding has its place, but must always be supervised...and the owner has to accept the risk of injury to the snake, or worse. Early only I also fed live, back in 1991 not many folks were talking about prekilled or frozen thawed. After having my female Colombian redtail get bitten by a feeder and the subsequent infection and antibiotic injections, I switched to prekilled. Not fun and not always pretty or clean. You get better with practice.

A few years of prekilling the prey, and I start hearing about frozen thawed rodents. I made the switch for convenience and significant cost savings over prekilling. I had very little trouble switching my animals over. In 27 years of keeping snakes, at least 18 of those years have been feeding f/t. There has been the occasional snake that only ate live prey at first, but they were eventually switched over to prekilled then f/t. Currently one of my baby balls is still eating live fuzzies. I have a sub-adult bp that I got Labor Day weekend that is still refusing to feed. She’s maintaining weight, so I’m not too worried yet. She was said to have already been on f/t, so I’m not looking to backtrack to live if I can help it.

This subject has been beat over the head for years. In fact if you search this forum you’ll find probably 100 debates. The only time I would ever feed live is to jump start a snake that won’t feed or a snake that forever will not take frozen or fresh kill.
Especially since your talking about ball pythons who 99% of the time would never defend them selves.
Even if you broaden the species and you’re feeding a Burmese python rabbits, the rear leg power & claws on a live rabbit could gut them in a heartbeat.
Yes they all eat live in the wild, however, I assume we’re all talking about pets here who I for one don’t want to see you get hurt.


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F/T is the safer way by far. A F/T prey item will NEVER fight back. A live rat can do serious damage, sometimes even being fatal. Even if not fatal you could end up with serious injuries to the eyes, face or other areas of the snake's body.

F/T is also considerably cheaper in the long run.


That being said, there are times to feed live. As long as it's supervised and done responsibly.

I currently feed both, all but one eats f/t. The live is a hopper. For those eating f/t, I plan to keep it that way. For the one that won't eat f/t at this time, I plan to switch after a few more meals.

I don't think anyone should be too quick to criticize those who do or don't use live feeding unless that person is doing it for the joy of watching animals die. One should try to switch but if it won't take no matter what, and it is losing weight, so be it and try again later.

I truly believe that there is a small minority of snakes that just won't compromise no matter what. Some picky eaters like bp prefers live only and forever, others wants white vs black fur, and those who only mice over rats.

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

I truly believe that there is a small minority of snakes that just won't compromise no matter what. Some picky eaters like bp prefers live only and forever, others wants white vs black fur, and those who only mice over rats.

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I am 100% in favor of feeding live as a jumpstart with I tricky eater, I've had to do it as well.
But based solely on what I've read here on this forum as well as other sources, it seems that feeding live in the UK is unheard of. I don't live there, but have read many times that this is the case.
Which leads me to question whether or not there are snakes that are "lifers" on live prey, refusing any other prey options. Or are we just doing things differently in the US than they are in the UK?

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

I am 100% in favor of feeding live as a jumpstart with I tricky eater, I've had to do it as well.
But based solely on what I've read here on this forum as well as other sources, it seems that feeding live in the UK is unheard of. I don't live there, but have read many times that this is the case.
Which leads me to question whether or not there are snakes that are "lifers" on live prey, refusing any other prey options. Or are we just doing things differently in the US than they are in the UK?

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Yeah, I'm actually pretty sure it's illegal to feed live prey in the UK.

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Originally Posted by alittleFREE

Yeah, I'm actually pretty sure it's illegal to feed live prey in the UK.

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I've heard that too, but then heard it's not an actual legal matter, but just one of those "unwritten rules".

Which makes me think that with time, patience and proper technique any animal can be switched. But again, no hands on experience, so not too sure.

I do pre-killed that is twitching still for picky feeders. The twitch works nicely to get their attention.

I feed both, depends on the species, depends on production etc.

Both can be done safely if you are educated about it and do it responsibly, I have been feeding well over 35000 live preys, (F/T I am not sure) and never had any issue. But all that is really behind the point here.

The real point is how can you get your BP on track.

Now when it comes to YOUR issue YOU DO NOT ASSIST an animal that age that knows how to eat unless there is a health issue that requires it. Ball python are know to fast and it can last a long time and depending on the weight it can be ok even for 6 months or a year the issue here is that you are not providing any info at all.

The first thing to look into is husbandry make sure everything is perfect (perfect to you might not be optimal so giving some details, for male during the winter season a little trick to ensure that they will eat is to downsize their enclosure to the smallest size possible that may mean something like a 15 quarts tub for a 900/1000 grams animal. Yes it is tight but as a temporary measure that works it is ALWAYS worth a try.

Now not knowing the background on the animal it is very possible that it has fed live it's entire life which means right now that is what you will likely have to feed, because adjusting to a new environment, entering winter/ breeding season can be a little too much to decided to switch now. A well established animal that feeds for you will switch a lot easier than one that is not.

What is the weight of your BP?
How big is your enclosure?
How tight are your hides?
What substrate do you use?
What are your temps?
etc

Now if it was mine here is what I would do.

Find the smallest tub for it's size (if he is 1000 grams or less I would get a 15 quarts tub), I would have coconut chip bedding (such as reptichip), have a hot spot of 88 cool spot of 78 and let him settle for a week.

Once a week has pass I would offer a F/T Mouse (not rat) and do it as followed, thaw at room temp near the enclosure, grab the mouse from behind the neck with a pair of feeding tong, warm it up with a hair dryer (make sure it is warm enough) and offer in the tub by moving the mouse around like if it was alive (hence why you need to grab it from behind the neck)


Off topic but

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Yeah, I'm actually pretty sure it's illegal to feed live prey in the UK.

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It's not, not how the law is written just are animal activists in England interpret it and try to use their interpretation to convince people of that. And if people repeat it enough online some may believe it.

An angle that hasn't been mentioned on this thread; personally I think live feeding is needlessly cruel to the food animal.

I did live feedings long ago. I've seen it and I'm sure that the poor creature suffers. Snakes need to eat, and I have no great sympathy for rats, but all life deserves respect.

Since we need to feed snakes food animals, we should go to reasonable lengths to make sure that those food animals suffer as little as possible, if at all.

Of course, there can be extenuating circumstances, life is complicated. From what the OP said, live feedings seem like a necessary measure. I'm no absolutist.

I don't have any issues with live feedings but I think they're rarely necessary. I've gotten impatient and fed live prey to jumpstart a few critters appetites. Mostly with new arrivals, or after long winter fasts, but ultimately they all ate f/t. There may be a very small number of snakes that would rather starve and die than eat f/t. I haven't come across any of those but I have had a couple of stubborn hold outs. I've had kings, bulls, and carpets go 2-3 months without food. I've had BPs go 8-12 months without food. Eventually the will to survive kicks in and they eat. I'm a firm believer that the hunger ALWAYS wins in the end.

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

I am 100% in favor of feeding live as a jumpstart with I tricky eater, I've had to do it as well.
But based solely on what I've read here on this forum as well as other sources, it seems that feeding live in the UK is unheard of. I don't live there, but have read many times that this is the case.
Which leads me to question whether or not there are snakes that are "lifers" on live prey, refusing any other prey options. Or are we just doing things differently in the US than they are in the UK?

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It's an interesting point you raise to be honest ..

I'm a Brit and I've kept all types/species of snakes including many , many Royal pythons and I've never had one that simply refuses to eat thawed .

I've had one that went off her food for 9 months many years ago but has eaten great since and I've got a pair of Albino Royals who will only eat every 10 to 14 days .
But never had or even heard of any who simply refuse to eat thawed .

Maybe it's just down to expectations. ?




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Prefer frozen after looking at other's experience and experience I had.. Didn't do damage but almost..
Anyways, I don't really know about full grown ball python having live prey all their life but I had 7 month ball python who was on live before I got him.
I thought he would never switch to f/t because he just didn't take it. However, after 5 months of trying, he finally switched and is beating on f/t.
Meanwhile, I monitored his weight to see if there is major loss in weight.

I prefer frozen for coveinience and safety sake, but I have one ball that suddenly refused frozen and went nearly a year untill I caved and gave her live. Every time I feed her I wonder if this will be the day the rat wins. I have no issue feeding live from a moral point of view, life is full of suffering far surpassing that of a rodent being killed by a constrictor, I just worry about the risk to my snakes.

Up until a month or so ago I was feeding live. I have 2 balls. My older male, has been a picky eater. When we got him, he ate mice but preferred African soft furs. When our local pet shop couldn't keep up stock we'd use mice. Then he started refusing. And fasted for a month or so. About the same time we got a female, just a little 80 gram baby. She ate live weekly, and killed like a killer. Scary almost, how efficient she was. She has since grown like a weed and outweighs the older male by at least 300 grams.

We decided to feed them both rats, the female because she was getting bigger and needed prey larger than a mouse and the male because, why not see if he eats it and breaks his fast. Totally worked. Both on rats since. But the female was attacked by one when left alone for a bit too long due to my negligence at the time. No serious damage, but it was the last time a live rat has been with either of them.

We have someone that has been breeding rats and providing us with a couple every couple of weeks (I moved from trying to feed weekly to every 2 weeks with great success), and when the time comes I kill them quickly and feed them out. Interestingly, the male has been the most aggressive with getting his meal now than he was when they were live. Maybe the 2 week schedule was the key, i don't know. I just know he tries to snatch the dead rat from my hand before I can let go.

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Originally Posted by SiXandSeven8ths

Up until a month or so ago I was feeding live. I have 2 balls. My older male, has been a picky eater. When we got him, he ate mice but preferred African soft furs. When our local pet shop couldn't keep up stock we'd use mice. Then he started refusing. And fasted for a month or so. About the same time we got a female, just a little 80 gram baby. She ate live weekly, and killed like a killer. Scary almost, how efficient she was. She has since grown like a weed and outweighs the older male by at least 300 grams.

We decided to feed them both rats, the female because she was getting bigger and needed prey larger than a mouse and the male because, why not see if he eats it and breaks his fast. Totally worked. Both on rats since. But the female was attacked by one when left alone for a bit too long due to my negligence at the time. No serious damage, but it was the last time a live rat has been with either of them.

We have someone that has been breeding rats and providing us with a couple every couple of weeks (I moved from trying to feed weekly to every 2 weeks with great success), and when the time comes I kill them quickly and feed them out. Interestingly, the male has been the most aggressive with getting his meal now than he was when they were live. Maybe the 2 week schedule was the key, i don't know. I just know he tries to snatch the dead rat from my hand before I can let go.

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Feeding every 10 to 14 days certainly works great for some Royals ..


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

It's an interesting point you raise to be honest ..

I'm a Brit and I've kept all types/species of snakes including many , many Royal pythons and I've never had one that simply refuses to eat thawed .

I've had one that went off her food for 9 months many years ago but has eaten great since and I've got a pair of Albino Royals who will only eat every 10 to 14 days .
But never had or even heard of any who simply refuse to eat thawed .

Maybe it's just down to expectations. ?




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Thanks Zinc. I was hoping you'd see this and set is straight.

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Originally Posted by alittleFREE

Yeah, I'm actually pretty sure it's illegal to feed live prey in the UK.

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

I've heard that too, but then heard it's not an actual legal matter, but just one of those "unwritten rules".

Which makes me think that with time, patience and proper technique any animal can be switched. But again, no hands on experience, so not too sure.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

It's an interesting point you raise to be honest ..

I'm a Brit and I've kept all types/species of snakes including many , many Royal pythons and I've never had one that simply refuses to eat thawed .

I've had one that went off her food for 9 months many years ago but has eaten great since and I've got a pair of Albino Royals who will only eat every 10 to 14 days .
But never had or even heard of any who simply refuse to eat thawed .

Maybe it's just down to expectations. ?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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It's illegal to feed live for entertainment (sp?) or for any other reason that isn't vital for the snakes health - the greater problem is the age/size ratio as it is also illegal for any shop to provide an unweaned animal ( usually ruled as six weeks old ).

Like Zinc I have always fed F/T exclusively, sometimes that makes it harder to start hatchlings off but I have yet to have one starve itself to death. This is not to say I haven't had to intervene or resort to various techniques to avoid it. :rolleyes:


del

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Originally Posted by dr del

It's illegal to feed live for entertainment (sp?) or for any other reason that isn't vital for the snakes health - the greater problem is the age/size ratio as it is also illegal for any shop to provide an unweaned animal ( usually ruled as six weeks old ).

Like Zinc I have always fed F/T exclusively, sometimes that makes it harder to start hatchlings off but I have yet to have one starve itself to death. This is not to say I haven't had to intervene or resort to various techniques to avoid it. :rolleyes:


del

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Thank you!

I’m of the belief that all snakes will eat f/t if it’s done correctly. Live is only fun for us to watch until the snake gets a nasty bite. The only thing I will feed live is baby rodents that can’t do much damage.

I only feed mine live. My BP is 5 years old and has always been on a live diet. The previous owners said they tried everything and she just won't touch anything that is pre-killed. I haven't tried to switch to f/t since I made the decision to stick with live anyway. I don't look away for a second when feeding and I'm at the ready to intervene if needed. I kinda feel like that's the gift mother nature gave her and I don't wanna take that away from her. She eats like a fat kid going after cake so I just let her do her thing. That's just my opinion and I know I'm part of the minority. At the end of the day I know the risks involved and do what I can to keep it safe as possible. As long as individuals are being responsible and not doing it for sadistic reasons then I say to each their own. This is the kind of topic that if you ask 10 people, you'll get 10 different answers lol.

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

. I've seen it and I'm sure that the poor creature suffers. Snakes need to eat, and I have no great sympathy for rats, but all life deserves respect.

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Originally Posted by Scooda954

I’m of the belief that all snakes will eat f/t if it’s done correctly. Live is only fun for us to watch until the snake gets a nasty bite.

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I am a firm believer in live feeding though for my convenience I have been working on switching everyone over to F/T for a long while now.
I am also a believer in respecting life. Problem with F/T is people never think twice about the waste of a life when they throw out a second time thawed out rodent. Sounds like a waste and disrespect to that animal.
Interesting that this topic came up today and I actually saw it. I came home to the smell of death in my house after work today. One of my first rescues was dead in her tub. Granted she was close to 12 years old and I have had her for more than half of that. She never skipped a meal when I was breeding my own rodents and feeding live, I never could get her to switch or even show interest to anything not breathing. She wouldnt even touch prekilled. I highly doubt there were any other underlying issues other than her refusal to eat over the last 18 months.
In that time I have tried several methods and did cave a couple times with live. The whole situation suck and if my life wasnt so twisted at the moment I would go back to breeding and selling live rodents.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I am also a believer in respecting life. Problem with F/T is people never think twice about the waste of a life when they throw out a second time thawed out rodent. Sounds like a waste and disrespect to that animal.

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This is actually an interesting comment, and something all of us that feed p/k or f/t face at some time...what to do with a left over rodent. I think many of us that have multiple animals will offer the prey item to another snake, assuming the original snake isn’t in quarantine. I don’t refreeze if the rodent isn’t eaten on the first thaw. I just prefer not to take that risk. I don’t refreeze my thawed meat, so theirs is treated the same way.

That said, nothing goes to waste. I’m fortunate enough to live in a rural area, so left over rodents get put on a piece of slate next to my flower bed. If I put it out at night, the skunk, oppossum, or raccon has an easy meal. If I put it out in the morning, the crows or red shouldered hawk get a snack. The local critters have learned to take a detour through the yard, initially attracked by the tasty bugs and bulbs in my flower bed. The crows are always on the lookout, and have usually landed by the time I’m closing the back door. I’ve even had a buzzard drop by when my burm didn’t eat her guinea pig.

I am currently feeding live adult mice to my little guy. He didn't eat for 3 weeks after I first got him and his weight was dropping so I buckled. He has since eaten 3 live mice for me. Once he gets back up to weight I intend to switch him over to f/t if possible. I especially wouldn't want to feed him live adult rats. I live in a place where it would be extremely difficult to get live rats anyways unless I bred them, which I have no intention of doing.

I used to feel pretty strong about feeding live. Kind of like fresh meat and vegetables vs frozen for myself. I won’t eat frozen meat or vegetables, there must be lost nutrients there right? If not, then it’s in my head, besides the yucky taste of frozen.

After hearing first hand horror stories on live feeding even while supervised, I decided to switch to frozen.

Best decision ever cost wise and convenience as well!

With the exception of hatchlings, I don’t buy into “they can not be switched”. I was told that by previous owners of half of my snakes. I switched them with no problem whatsoever, and I’m not some kind of a Zenmaster.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...dc217f113f.png

Graphic warning.

Let the photos do the talking.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

Do I need to say more?

To me, it depends on the owner's situation and the snake. I have a local pet store 10 minutes from me that always have live mice/rats for feeders. They are cheap too so that is a plus. Another plus is they don't explode like every other frozen mouse that I buy from local chain pet stores; in turn wasting money.
I'm not favoring one over the other as I do use both ways, just have/had more luck with live prey.

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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

Graphic warning.

Let the photos do the talking.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

Do I need to say more?

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Those are from complete idiots leaving rodents in for extended time periods.
They have been floating over the internet for year.
Live feeding wasnt the problem in those photos..... you cant fix stupid.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

After hearing first hand horror stories on live feeding even while supervised, I decided to switch to frozen.

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I am one of those people that had this happen in 1999. Luckily my boa wasn't badly injured and it prompted me to ask on forums and that's when I found out you could feed pre-killed and later heard about frozen/thawed.

I have yet to meet a snake that I cannot convert to f/t and hopefully it stays that way.
The least amount of suffering for the prey plus cheaper, no hassle feeding for my snakies, that's how I like it.

I've even got a bunch of my ball pythons taking f/t rabbit kits which I honestly did not expect would happen.
I have enough snake species that there is always someone who can take a refused rodent if/when it happens or as others have stated, toss into a field for the local wildlife to scavenge.

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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

Graphic warning.

Let the photos do the talking.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

Do I need to say more?

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So tired of ignorant post like this that do nothing to educate people but instead use graphic pictures that do not reflect responsible live feeding to promote a certain agenda. :rolleyes:

But yeah some people have no business feeding live, just like some should not give advice either because they lack the REAL hands on experience on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

Graphic warning.

Let the photos do the talking.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...ault&eim=1,2,6

Do I need to say more?

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You gotta start using a better search engine... Graphic images don't do anything but make people cringe and are completely unnecessary.

In regards to feeding live or FT, it just depends on the person. I started with live but ended up switching to FT because it was more convenient for me, not my BPs. One of my older girls took longer to switch but now takes FT no problem.

The lesson here is feed however works best for you.

I personally only feed F\T. I made all my live feeders switch over to F\t. I have NOTHING against live feeding and I believe it is completely natural for snakes to eat live feeders. I just choose not to take the risk of an unnecessary vet bill from a rat\rabbit harming my snake during feeding.

More then one time I needed live or fresh killed, to get a kid or two headed in the right direction. And for years I fed live to a good size boa collection, but the drive and price made me head towards the convince of frozen thawed. And I also possibly over supervised the live feeding. But the scare tactic photos are lame, I agree, can’t fix stupid.

I feed frozen where ever possible. If they demand live, we will do it, but I have always done my best to convert away from this.

My reasons are the general ones:

1) Cheaper
2) Easier
3) No risk to snake
4) No stressing out a live rodent.

The only reason to feed live in my world is if the Snake demands it.

Best,

Paul