RI Question

I rescued a juvenile (300g) piebald ball python a few months ago. They were giving him away on craigslist because it had a respiratory infection and they didn't want to deal with it. I took him to the vet ASAP and the doctor prescribed a months worth of injectable antibiotics (10 shots). I thought it did the trick but in about two weeks I noticed signs of a RI and back to vet again. I am now on my second month of oral antibiotics (bytril) every other day for the past 6 weeks with two more weeks to go he sounds a little bit better but he definitely still has an infection. I believe he's going to need at least another months worth of antibiotics but maybe more.

Has anyone else ever had a stubborn RI that took a long time to cure? I take meticulous care of my snakes and have never had a RI before.

He's still eating normally, shedding in one piece, and is gaining weight each month.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

First you find yourself a new vet the fact that he prescribed oral anti-biotic tells me his knowledge is very limited.

Treating with injectable anti-biotic is standard however if you treat for a month and you are not using the proper anti-biotics it's pretty much like doing nothing.

There are different type of RI and they are not treated the same way there are also other things where RI is just one of the symptoms, what was the result of the culture? The vet did a culture right?

My heart is dropping into my stomach and I feel sick. I didn't get a culture, I didn't know to ask for one. I would go to a new vet but the one I'm going to is the only one in the area that sees exotics. There is another doctor in the practice that sees exotics, I'll make my next appointment with him.

Besides the culture is there anything else I should be asking for?

Is there anything with the husbandry that I should change? The doctor told me to lower his humidity too but now I'm questioning that as well.

I feel really bad, I've basically been torturing this guy for the past three month and it's going to continue.

Do not lower humidity with a snake with an RI; you want to bump up both its heat AND its humidity. Think about when you are congested and take a hot, steamy shower; a lot of the crud in your sinuses and throat breaks up and you can expel it and breathe more easily. The same goes for your snake.

Interestingly enough my vet doesn't do cultures unless the client specifically asks; he pushes both injected baytril and fortaz instead. His reasoning is that the culture is more expensive than the meds, the vast majority of RI's will respond to one or the other, and people with less valuable snakes won't bring them to the vet if a RI costs $300-350 to treat instead of $150 - they will just let the snake die and get another one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcr229

Interestingly enough my vet doesn't do cultures unless the client specifically asks; he pushes both injected baytril and fortaz instead. His reasoning is that the culture is more expensive than the meds, the vast majority of RI's will respond to one or the other, and people with less valuable snakes won't bring them to the vet if a RI costs $300-350 to treat instead of $150 - they will just let the snake die and get another one.

---

That’s a shame. For a few reasons - one, because it would be nice to think that animals are worth more to their owners than their purchase price. But also because that sounds like a recipe for transmissible diseases propagating farther before anyone knows what’s happening; and because automatically dosing with antibiotics when you don’t know if they’ll help is a great way to breed resistant strains. I get it that not everyone is going to pay for the culture, but it seems like vets should at least encourage it. Surely there are people who would be willing to pay for it, but either don’t know to ask or assume that if the vet doesn’t mention it first there’s no reason to ask.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcr229

...
Interestingly enough my vet doesn't do cultures unless the client specifically asks; he pushes both injected baytril and fortaz instead. His reasoning is that the culture is more expensive than the meds, the vast majority of RI's will respond to one or the other, and people with less valuable snakes won't bring them to the vet if a RI costs $300-350 to treat instead of $150 - they will just let the snake die and get another one.

---

In my experience & hearing from others, many if not most vets (that see snakes) approach it this same way. They take their best
shot at it, but it's not always the right shot, & Coluber42 brings up good points. But to NJ Balls, you took on a lot more than you
realized...I believe the person who gave the snake away DID realize this was an uphill battle though, possibly resistant, etc.

Baytril is not usually the best antibiotic for RI infections in snakes - however it is often prescribed as non-specialist vets know that it it "safe" in reptiles, though in birds and mammals it can cause muscle death at the injection site - I would assume this is the case in reptiles too. Usually for RI you would treat with Tazicef (ceftazidime) injections. Usually 1 shot every 48-72 hours for several weeks. You can call the vet back and ask for a culture of the bacteria in the mouth - this will take 5-7 days to come back from the lab, but once the vet has the proper organism they can get you on the proper antibiotics- the cost is worth it if it is a recurring infection.

Also, oral meds for snakes are difficult - how exactly are you giving them? Squirting it directly in the mouth risks aspiration, most oral meds are either tubed or injected in prey then fed. Just don't want to see you complicate things with bad veterinary advice. Aspirate pneumonia is far harder to treat than RI.

Bcr is right, keep the temps and humidity up until he kicks the infection. You can even put him in a "hospital" tank - remove substrate and replace with paper towels or something else easy to clean daily to keep his habitat as clean as possible.

I'm taking him to a different vet tomorrow to get a culture and switched back to an injectable antibiotic.

He has been in a hospital tank on paper towels for the past 3 month and I did raise the heat to 95 degrees. Starting today I'm bringing his humidity back up too.

The vet gave me a small syringe without a needle to squirt the antibiotics into his mouth which I thought was weird for the same reasons you stated but I followed the instructions because I trusted the vet.

I'll keep you posted and thank you for all your help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NJ Balls

I'm taking him to a different vet tomorrow to get a culture and switched back to an injectable antibiotic.

He has been in a hospital tank on paper towels for the past 3 month and I did raise the heat to 95 degrees. Starting today I'm bringing his humidity back up too.

---

Make sure he has a cool side too, should be 82-83*F.

Just got back from the vet to have a culture sent out for analysis and I'm waiting for the results. Should be back in 4 or 5 days.

The vet said the culture results would most likely be skewed because he's been taking the antibiotics for six weeks.

Vet also said that it's mostly likely developed into a lower respatory injection and moving forward we'll follow a pnemonia treatment protocol which is an extended period of injectable antibiotics. The type of antibiotic is yet to be determined until the culture results come back. In the mean time the vet said to stop the oral medication and raise the humidity in his enclosure which I had already done.

The new treatment he suggested is saline nebulizer treatments 15 minutes a day. Which isn't a problem because I already have a nebulizer from my son when he was having asthma attacks.

Are saline nebulizer treatment going to help?

It's a shame but after the previous advise I've been given I'm now questioning everything.

I have used nebulizers in cats with severe URI - it seems to help some, more to make them breathe easier for a bit vs medically helping with the disease process, but as long as its saline and not tap water / something scented it shouldn't hurt

Nebulizer are great things. I had a dog with lung disease and any sniffle meant we broke out the nebulizer, kept the amount of time she needed to be on oxygen treatments down for sure.

The fine mist helps break down the solid chunks in the lungs when its inhaled. Once the vet gets the culture results back, you can ask if there's a medication you can add to the nebulizer treatments that can help.

I hope you get some good news on the culture and it's something easy to treat. Hope the noodle gets well soon!

Just got the results of the culture test and they found two different types of bacteria. One was a normal bacteria that's found in all snakes mouths and the other is a real nasty one that's highly resistant to most antibiotics. When I go to the vet to pick up the antibiotics and the test results I'll post the names of the bacteria.

4 trips to the vet, three months of antibiotics. and $550 all a waste. The bacteria is resistant to both antibiotics I've already tried and the one I need has to be special ordered. I wonder if the kid I got the snake from knew he had a highly resistant bacteria when he surrendered the snake.

Now that I'm on the right track I hope this will get my guy healthy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NJ Balls

Just got the results of the culture test and they found two different types of bacteria. One was a normal bacteria that's found in all snakes mouths and the other is a real nasty one that's highly resistant to most antibiotics. When I go to the vet to pick up the antibiotics and the test results I'll post the names of the bacteria.

4 trips to the vet, three months of antibiotics. and $550 all a waste. The bacteria is resistant to both antibiotics I've already tried and the one I need has to be special ordered. I wonder if the kid I got the snake from knew he had a highly resistant bacteria when he surrendered the snake.

Now that I'm on the right track I hope this will get my guy healthy.

---

Thank you for the update. I'd be very interested in seeing the culture results and the prescribed antibiotic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcr229

Thank you for the update. I'd be very interested in seeing the culture results and the prescribed antibiotic.

---

Me too. So many Vets seem to have a lack of experience with these Reptiles and it’s great that we have a site that we can read up on to help educate the damn Vet too if we need to!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Are saline nebulizer treatment going to help?

---

In a way neutralizer helps alleviate symptoms and breaking down mucus however that's about it and if I was going to do that I would use F10 not just saline. (another thing your vet does not seem to be aware of)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NJ Balls

Just got the results of the culture test and they found two different types of bacteria. One was a normal bacteria that's found in all snakes mouths and the other is a real nasty one that's highly resistant to most antibiotics. When I go to the vet to pick up the antibiotics and the test results I'll post the names of the bacteria.

4 trips to the vet, three months of antibiotics. and $550 all a waste. The bacteria is resistant to both antibiotics I've already tried and the one I need has to be special ordered. I wonder if the kid I got the snake from knew he had a highly resistant bacteria when he surrendered the snake.

Now that I'm on the right track I hope this will get my guy healthy.

---

Glad to hear you got some real answers and I hope now your snake can recover! Please keep us posted!

Now for the PSA:
Antibiotic resistance is a real thing, in animals and in people. That’s why vets, doctors, farmers, etc, should NOT use antibiotics in a scattershot way, or prophylactically even though it’s very tempting.
Please people, even if the vet doesn’t mention it or it’s expensive, ask for the culture before starting antibiotics.
Also why you should always finish your entire course of antibiotics as prescribed even if you’re feeling better before you run out. Doses that are only partially effective kill off the bacteria that are susceptible and leave their more resistant relatives to survive and breed.

Glad you got the cultures done. I know Pseudomonas can become resistant and is common in reptiles. Just make sure you use proper QT procedure and also wash your hands well. Hope the new antibiotics help. Snakes are amazingly hearty and with support can bounce back. good luck

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NJ Balls

The bacteria is resistant to both antibiotics I've already tried and the one I need has to be special ordered. I wonder if the kid I got the snake from knew he had a highly resistant bacteria when he surrendered the snake.....

---

I was suspicious when you first posted this...I'm willing to bet they tried an antibiotic already that didn't work, but probably never went the whole lab-work route-
they had a good indication that it wouldn't be an easy-to-treat illness, & decided it was easier to give him away than to pay for the lab work, in case that still didn't
work for him. Good job coming to the rescue...:gj: Let's hope he gets well after all this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

In a way neutralizer helps alleviate symptoms and breaking down mucus however that's about it and if I was going to do that I would use F10 not just saline. (another thing your vet does not seem to be aware of)

---

Can you put F10 in the nebulizer? I had to get the saline for inhalation on amazon and I see the F10 too but it does't say for inhalation.

The vet said he'll most likely be on antibiotics for three months so I have plenty of time to get F10.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NJ Balls

Can you put F10 in the nebulizer? I had to get the saline for inhalation on amazon and I see the F10 too but it does't say for inhalation.

The vet said he'll most likely be on antibiotics for three months so I have plenty of time to get F10.

---

When I look at F10 on amazon it says frequently purchased with a Zoo Med fogger/humidifier.

I'm assuming you have to dilute the F10 and not use it straight. If you dilute it what's the ratio?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NJ Balls

When I look at F10 on amazon it says frequently purchased with a Zoo Med fogger/humidifier.

I'm assuming you have to dilute the F10 and not use it straight. If you dilute it what's the ratio?

---

I just watched a U-Tube video mixed the F10 3ml to one liter of water and was used in a fogger/humidifier.

I made my nebulizer with the nebulizer my son used when he was having asthma attacks. Can I use it in a nebulizer or do I need a fogger. If I can use it in the nebulizer what's the mixture?

This is my nebulizer.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...output_8e.jpeg

The two bacterias found in the culture test were Pseudomonas Alcaligenes (heavy growth) and Enterococcus Species also heavy growth.

I believe the doctor said the Pseudomonas was the nasty one that's resistant to most antibiotics.

He prescribed Ciprofloxacin 4ml every two days. I prefer an injectable but the one that would work on this bacteria can cause blindness and liver failure and I felt it wasn't worth the risk.


Can you put F10 in a nebulizer and if so what's the mixture ratio?

Now that I have the right antibiotic my guy is progressively getting better.

No more weezing or gurgling sounds, I still have a long way to with the antibiotics approximately 3 months but lessoned learned.

Don't be cheap and pay for the culture up front it's much cheaper in the long run and a lot less stress on the noodle.


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...output_97.jpeg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NJ Balls

Can you put F10 in a nebulizer and if so what's the mixture ratio?

---

The ONLY F10 you can us is F10SC. Grab the large bottle 200ML (6.8oz) and you can use it to clean after. This way your not paying crazy money for a 1/2 water spray bottle from RBI. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ae55a9b01a.png


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

The ONLY F10 you can us is F10SC. Grab the large bottle 200ML (6.8oz) and you can use it to clean after. This way your not paying crazy money for a 1/2 water spray bottle from RBI. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ae55a9b01a.png


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

It really pissy me off when i see places like LLL and other Reptile shops rip people off. These jerks are asking $100 for stuff i get for $26 any day of the week. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...af5890c60d.png


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey kind regards..... im just reading up on this forum cuz I searched Ciprofloxacin ... my snake was just prescribed Ciprofloxacin eye drops but the vet told me it wasn't an antibiotic.... is that incorrect is
Ciprofloxacin an antibiotic? In any case hope to hear this snake recovered from the resistant respiratory attack.