Should you really breed? Are you sure it is a good idea?

In the world of ball pythons there are morphs, hundreds, maybe thousands of morphs and morph combos. So MANY new owners decide they want to get more than one snake, because they like other morphs and want more. That is fine, as long as you can afford the time and money to properly care for them.

Then while shopping for the new morphs they want, they notice some of the prices on these morphs and they think to themselves...."wow, I could just buy some of these and breed em' and MULTIPLY my money investment! Awesome, I am going to breed!!!" Or they think,"I cannot afford this high end combo recessive morph I want, but if I breed cheap snake A to cheap snake B, I could get one of those expensive ones I like!"

So they sit down and type a new forum post, " Hey guys, I have such and such a morph, and I as thinking to pair it to such and such! The genetic calculator says I will get such and such, such and such morph hatchlings!!! Awesome.

However, often they have not thoroughly thought this through, meaning that they haven't considered the large amount of money, time and effort involved. Nor have they considered the business and marketing strategies to sell these hatchlings once they are born!

It seems there are two main reasons that newbies want to breed:

1) They want to "make" a morph they like.
JUST BUY IT! Why take tons of time, buy two parents, go through the work (and money) of reproducing and hatch 6-10 eggs just to get ONE MORPH you like? Then what do you do with the other 5-9 eggs?
You want a pastel piebald? Just buy one! It is more expensive to try to hit the odds with a pastel het pied, and a normal het pied, than it is to just buy one. You have to buy 2 adult snakes, or two hatchlings and raise them to adulthood, and even then the odds suck (⅛ chance of each egg being a pastel pied) and you have to take care of multiple snakes for years, just to get the morph you want.

2) They think it is profitable automatically. When you do serious accounting research on snake breeding, you find that the majority of breeders actually end up with a LOSS. That is right, they LOSE money. Cost of enclosures, thermostats, heating equipment, rodents, substrate, possibly even vet bills...just to hopefully sell some baby snakes (IF they are even in demand morphs, which a LOT of morphs these day are too plentiful and/or do not have the demand.)

See a good article on reptile breeding financial accounting here: http://www.ballpythonbreeder.com/201...on-investment/

I can see the mentality behind breed verses drop dead from myocardial infarction from price shoke, but agree my dream morph would a banana clown morph but breeding hets than fingers crossed years later that you would get a visual plus all the new equipment you need so too much a hassle, one day hopefully till then a girl can dream:P

this seems more like a rant than providing any guidance, but that's okay! tho i think you missed option #3 that i believe you, i and many others on here fall into:

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

It seems there are two main reasons that newbies want to breed:

1) They want to "make" a morph they like.

2) They think it is profitable automatically.

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or 3) because they have the passion for these animals.

money was never involved in my decision making tbh; it was my heart. any animals i have are animals i wanted; their future potential was not a huge factor (except when hets were involved lol).

future potential gains are not my goal; it's the miracle of seeing a first pip in your first clutch. morphs be damned, i just want my first clutch to all be healthy.

for me, it's the idea of growing your personal hobby into something more for you: pushing your own knowledge and skills and creating new life with your passion! the pursuit of new knowledge and applying it is practically a turn-on for me; to get to try it with something as beautiful as this is incredible.

what sucks is those of us that are going about breeding "the right way" are usually silent and don't openly ask questions; we also usually don't talk about breeding unless we're actually doing it. we keep our heads down, do our research for years, and MIGHT ask questions if we really need help. we are the quiet minority.

and it hurts my heart to see all these people every year, posting how they bought 12 animals and want to be ready to breed by next year. meanwhile when i tell them to hold off, ive been doing this for 5 years and still haven't paired any animals, is somehow an attack on them.

i just really wanted to add my perspective bc i am a n00b in this hobby and i do want to breed, and i want it to be known that my outlook on this part of the hobby is a good one.

^^ I think he left out on purpose and using this as kind of a wake up call to the caught up in the moment future breeders. I do plan on breeding in the future, but a ways out. Before I do I have a finished room in garage that will be setup for racks and have full temperature controls for the room. Part of my desire is, as you said, the joy of it. I've loved reptiles since o was a kid. Part is making morphs I want and part is some possible $$$ reclamation. And I did use all of these desires when picking out my pets.

If I could give Godzilla78's post TWENTY thanks, I would...breeding snakes take time, money, space, HOPEFULLY dedication & skills, oh, and LUCK!

Besides health risks for your pets, you also risk turning something that for now is fun & relaxing into something that is stressful & WORK. Medical and
ethical issues aren't rare either.

Other things to consider that may impact your breeding plans are how the increasing time spent on snakes impacts your partner & family...also consider
the stability of your employment and place you live. What if things change? We cannot plan for everything, but neither should we ignore possible issues.

And...IS THERE TRULY A MARKET FOR ALL THAT YOU'LL PRODUCE? Not only the ones you are intending to produce, but ALL the OTHERS? Please think
about that...

I am not against breeding. Just think ti through first, not just think about it, but sit down and do some analysis of everything involved and the results that will realistically be obtained. Too many "passionate reptile keepers" buy a bunch of animals with intentions to breed, it does't turn out like they thought, and they get burned out and sell their collection. The PASSION, becomes a CHORE.

Just think before you leap.

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Originally Posted by chakup

^^ I think he left out on purpose and using this as kind of a wake up call to the caught up in the moment future breeders. I do plan on breeding in the future, but a ways out. Before I do I have a finished room in garage that will be setup for racks and have full temperature controls for the room. Part of my desire is, as you said, the joy of it. I've loved reptiles since o was a kid. Part is making morphs I want and part is some possible $$$ reclamation. And I did use all of these desires when picking out my pets.

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i see that now. and yeah, i plan to have my own dedicated reptile room before i pair any snakes, which means buying my own place first. "breeders" like us keep our heads down and focus on these goals and DO things to make them real; we dont make post after post hoping somehow it all works out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

I am not against breeding. Just think ti through first, not just think about it, but sit down and do some analysis of everything involved and the results that will realistically be obtained. Too many "passionate reptile keepers" buy a bunch of animals with intentions to breed, it does't turn out like they thought, and they get burned out and sell their collection. The PASSION, becomes a CHORE.

Just think before you leap.

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excellently succinct. i think there needs to be more emphasis on actually analyzing your own personal and financial situations when it comes to making the leap: not whether you can keep 17 animals, but whether you can adjust your personal/financial situation at the drop of a hat should something go horribly wrong.

this is a good post, Godzilla. something like this should be posted yearly.

I can understand why people think it's easy to make money off of snakes compared to other animals. Even low-mid tier ball python hatchlings can easily sell for $200-300 each.

I'm close friends with a cat breeder and she sells kittens at $300-500 and that's before deducting the care costs. That's 2 full months of socialization, training, vet checks, vaccinations, and care packages, as well as the fact that her one male cat needs a whole separate room for himself. I would say it's at least marginally easier and more profitable to breed one pair of ball pythons.

That being said, I'm in no way in it for the money myself. I love my snakes for what they are. I have one breeding plan that's 2 years in the making and I'd be more than happy if the money I got would cover their feeding costs.

I think this is an excellent post! Excellent! Also followed up by Taylor and you have the perfect posts!

I agree with both of you. I thought about breeding however, if I do get more snakes it will be rescues only. And I would get attached to babies and would have to do home checks on the people that I would give them too lol. So it's a nope to breeding for me. Lol

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Originally Posted by Sunnieskys

I think this is an excellent post! Excellent! Also followed up by Taylor and you have the perfect posts!

I agree with both of you. I thought about breeding however, if I do get more snakes it will be rescues only. And I would get attached to babies and would have to do home checks on the people that I would give them too lol. So it's a nope to breeding for me. Lol

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Exactly, you analyzed the possible outcomes and made a decision.

This thread was as much aimed at myself as to anyone else considering breeding!!!

Me, I am a business person who happens to have an extreme passion for ball pythons, and it has taken me 3 years, but I am launching a business plan and doing business research, because I want to make a profit, and making a profit in the reptile breeding business is apparently an exception. Does making a profit mean I am greedy pig? No, it means I am well aware of how challenging it is to make money as an entrepreneur in ANY business, and I love the challenge and I love the animals. I have done a lot analysis on investing, marketing, return on investment, depreciation, accounting, genetics, marketing, supply and demand, marketing, costs of doing business (overhead), marketing, and the very REAL possibility that I will lose money or break even and end up with a lot of snakes and snake husbandry work. (which I am prepared for the worst, though I hope for the best.)

this hobby has space and a niche for almost everyone - pet keepers, rescuers, hobby keepers and casual breeders, professional breeders, etc. there is alotta grey area and overlap, but folks need to be realistic w/ what category they fall into most, what commitments they can make and where they want to go. and if u jump too fast from one category to the another w/o the proper knowledge, experience, resources (equipment, finances, etc.), motives, u risk burning out.


for me, this is like most hobbies and it is a money pit. i put money in for my enjoyment and don't expect a big ROI (if at all). from my perspective, BP and reptile keeping is not much different from other money pit hobbies like quilting, baseball card collecting, classic car restoration, etc. u could be a hobbyist producer or collector in any of these examples, maybe sell a few here and there, but mostly u do it b/c it interests u and it's fun. i took my time, absorbed all i could from the forum and breeders i know, set my goals and here i am w/ a few clutches. i have plans for the babies but could house and care for them for the long term if needed. that said, i'm not gonna quit my job to become a full-time reptile breeder just like most card collectors won't quit their jobs to open up a card shop or hobby car builders will not open up an autobody shop. i'm happy and having fun and i know where i stand in the hobby that will hold my interest for the long run (if not for life).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

1) They want to "make" a morph they like.
JUST BUY IT! Why take tons of time, buy two parents, go through the work (and money) of reproducing and hatch 6-10 eggs just to get ONE MORPH you like? Then what do you do with the other 5-9 eggs?
You want a pastel piebald? Just buy one! It is more expensive to try to hit the odds with a pastel het pied, and a normal het pied, than it is to just buy one. You have to buy 2 adult snakes, or two hatchlings and raise them to adulthood, and even then the odds suck (⅛ chance of each egg being a pastel pied) and you have to take care of multiple snakes for years, just to get the morph you want.

2) They think it is profitable automatically. When you do serious accounting research on snake breeding, you find that the majority of breeders actually end up with a LOSS. That is right, they LOSE money. Cost of enclosures, thermostats, heating equipment, rodents, substrate, possibly even vet bills...just to hopefully sell some baby snakes (IF they are even in demand morphs, which a LOT of morphs these day are too plentiful and/or do not have the demand.)

See a good article on reptile breeding financial accounting here: http://www.ballpythonbreeder.com/201...on-investment/

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I will fully admit that both 1 and 2 were major factors why I got into ball python morphs.
Looking back I realized I have come full circle. I started keeping reptiles purely because I loved it, no morphs and very common species.
At the height of my "morph craze" I somehow lost a bit of that passion that got me started. I remember going to my first reptile show I literally spent all day looking at everything, I was in reptile heaven. When I was all about morphs I literally spent less than an hour at a show and was underwhelmed by the selection of morphs I wanted.
I have been out of wanting to breed for years and honestly I am in a good place now. Maybe in the future I will breed, but it will purely be for enjoyment.

But I think your post hit the nail on the head.

I was in for about 8 years. When I first started, I wanted to see the process and bought a pastel and a spider. Four years later I had my first clutch and was up to 10 adults. When I threw in the towel I had 45 snakes and over 150 rats at any given time. I had seen it all and was ready to try something new. I am the kind of person who wants to do it all and as we all know you can’t do everything all at once so nearly all of my project was moved along to another someone wanting to see how it all works. It was fun and I learned a lot. Definitely a money pit, didn’t make a dime, and lost more than two. But I had fun and the animals had it good. It’s been over 6 months now and I still lurk here every couple days. Snake room is now a zen spa room with the biggest claw foot soaking tub you ever saw, hehe. Have deep pockets if you want to dive into the breeding aspect of this hobby, it’s not for sissy’s! I’ve done and seen a lot, big projects and small ones. If you think of something I have not done, I’d love to hear it and consider trying it out. Just my nature. Guesses are my reasons are the minority here though. Close.

I don't have any personal experience input, as I'm 15 and dont have any future intentions of breeding, but this thread holds a really important discussion that I think should be had more often. But honestly adll the points that you and tttaylorrr have hit are crucial and need to be weighed in, especially for YOUNGER hobbyists like me who stick both feet in the water too soon without realizing that they still have close relationships with family, and possibly more school based on carrer choice ahead of them. I do agree for the most part, if you want the pretty snake, buy the pretty snake before you have your hands full with a business that may be too much to handle.

Perosnally, I could never breed, just because as life goes on I find that when I want to and do spend time with Dewey it is time squeezed in (i am very active), and that if i didn't sell the hatchlings it'd just be a burden, because I like to keep the amount of animals low so I can devote more quality time to each and pretty much spoil them because I have the money. I respect those who are super passionate about it though. I have met some fnastastic people who bred, especially on here.

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

3) because they have the passion for these animals.

money was never involved in my decision making tbh; it was my heart. any animals i have are animals i wanted; their future potential was not a huge factor (except when hets were involved lol).

future potential gains are not my goal; it's the miracle of seeing a first pip in your first clutch. morphs be damned, i just want my first clutch to all be healthy.

for me, it's the idea of growing your personal hobby into something more for you: pushing your own knowledge and skills and creating new life with your passion! the pursuit of new knowledge and applying it is practically a turn-on for me; to get to try it with something as beautiful as this is incredible.

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I couldn't agree with this more. Money isn't really a major issue for us and I don't expect to profit from BP sales. Selling some hatchlings to help fund my hobby from time to time is great but we'll likely never be in the black. We started because we loved ball pythons. We had our first clutch hatch this year and the thrill we got when we had that first ever pip (a pastel spider pied) was an incredible feeling. We've got everything we need for next year and the following year's clutches, including a great male banana clown to go to a few different female clowns. If we never sell a single snake we're still thrilled to be doing it. Sure larger collections can feel like a chore sometimes but so can owning a cat or a dog (which we have both of). If you love the animals and you're prepared to provide for them then that should be all that matters.