Refused The Mouse

I purchased a 2 month old ball python from a breeder about 3 weeks ago. He was feeding her live hopper mice. But I have then switched her over to frozen with no issues up until this point. Right now she is in a 10gal enclosure w aspen bedding, hide on the warm side and a hide on the cool side. The ambient temperature currently is 78*F and a humidity of 63%. I am assuming she has no issues w the the enclosure being that she comes out of her hide like clock work everyday when I get back from work. Now here is my dilemma. She refused her mouse yesterday. 2 things have happened prior to this. 1. I accidentally fed her a small fuzzy last week and not a hopper (got my mice mixed up) . I had not fed her again up until last night. 2. I bought a slightly larger water bowl to help increase the humidity although it was still in ballpark range with the smaller bowl. The smaller bowl kept the humidity between 57%-59%. Last night I placed the frozen hopper mouse in a sandwich bag and placed it in a hot bowl of water for 20 mins. Grabbed it with the feeding tongs and held it and wiggled it in front of her. She came up and "smelt" it but wouldn't budge. Then she finally lunged at it after about a minute and half and got a hold of it. She held on to it for a minute then let go and turned around and looked at me like WTF is? lol. Anyways. Could she be beginning to go into shed? Do I wait another week before feeding her again? Can I still handle her? * I am a new owner and new to all of this...

Eve's Enclosure

She is chillin on top of her warm side enclosure

You can see the new bowl inside vs the old bowl outside

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._0942_copy.jpg


Eve's Food

Dont laugh at my fridge. I am a single man...LOL

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._0943_copy.jpg

Thanks for any advice!!!

Hey pretty balanced diet to me;) I still cover three sides to make your babe feel safer, how did you heat the pray maybe it wasn't warm enough for her fancy since she was previously on live?I guess I wait awhile and try again, making sure to heat the head up with either hot water or a hair drier hopefully someone with more experience will chime in, best wishes always..:D

Are you using some kind of UTH?


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Originally Posted by reptilemom25

Are you using some kind of UTH?


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Looks like the heat mat is on the side ( left of picture ) .

It's not something we advise over here in the UK though tbh

Can't see it being the only heat source as it's far too small to make a difference even if it was underneath the tank ..

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Looks like the heat mat is on the side ( left of picture ) .

It's not something we advise over here in the UK though tbh


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I see it now. That’s probably the issue. A 78 ambient with no under belly heat isn’t going to work for digestion.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by reptilemom25

I see it now. That’s probably the issue. A 78 ambient with no under belly heat isn’t going to work for digestion.


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It may not be a heat mat but it does look like one ...


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Try moving the UTH to under the tank instead of the side. You can't get an accurate reading this way for a snake who needs belly heat. It could be warming up the air but not the belly. Make sure you are using a thermostat or dimmer. Set it for no higher than 88 F. Some owners do well at 90 F and I had that with my bp at the start when he was tiny. He was avoiding his hot spot and many suggested to lower the temp to 88 which worked for me.

Using a hair dryer after thawing the rodent helps greatly. The food must be as warm as it is alive, and live rodents are quite warm. Not only that, if you dry it near the tank, the smell would usually get her going and ready to eat.

I believe the lowest temp you should have is 80 F. I don't know if being 2 degrees would make a big difference so someone else can confirm that.

Hides should touch the sides and top of the snake. The more secure it feels, the easier it can settle down. You can pick up a plastic plant dish for less than a dollar at your local hardware store. Cut a hole and you are ready to go. Always use identical hides.

No handling until she eats consistently for several meals. Some suggest 2-3 (which is what I do with all my new snakes), others recommend at least 4-5 depending on how shy your bp is (Some are naturally more easily spooked than others).

Add more clutter in your tank. This cam be done with fake plants or newspaper. You can pick up a sizeable fake plant from your local dollar store. Less open space = more security for the baby noodle.

Lastly, once the husbandry is fixed and she starts to eat again, she needs to upgrade to a small mouse or rat pinkie. There is a feeding chart in the forums for your reference. I would stay with mice until she eats more consistently, gain some weight, then prepare for the switch to rats starting with rat fuzzies (when she is ready for another upgrade to medium/adult mice). Hoppers are too small for her at this point but since she refused her last meal, I would fix the husbandry, try again with the hopper, if she eats it, upgrade to small mice next time.

Along with what everyone else said, an animal that age that has been feeding fairly regularly is likely to be entering a shed cycle. Many will not eat during this period. Check to see if the belly is a little pink. If it is the shed cycle is beginning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

I purchased a 2 month old ball python from a breeder about 3 weeks ago. He was feeding her live hopper mice. But I have then switched her over to frozen with no issues up until this point. Right now she is in a 10gal enclosure w aspen bedding, hide on the warm side and a hide on the cool side. The ambient temperature currently is 78*F and a humidity of 63%. I am assuming she has no issues w the the enclosure being that she comes out of her hide like clock work everyday when I get back from work. Now here is my dilemma. She refused her mouse yesterday. 2 things have happened prior to this. 1. I accidentally fed her a small fuzzy last week and not a hopper (got my mice mixed up) . I had not fed her again up until last night. 2. I bought a slightly larger water bowl to help increase the humidity although it was still in ballpark range with the smaller bowl. The smaller bowl kept the humidity between 57%-59%. Last night I placed the frozen hopper mouse in a sandwich bag and placed it in a hot bowl of water for 20 mins. Grabbed it with the feeding tongs and held it and wiggled it in front of her. She came up and "smelt" it but wouldn't budge. Then she finally lunged at it after about a minute and half and got a hold of it. She held on to it for a minute then let go and turned around and looked at me like WTF is? lol. Anyways. Could she be beginning to go into shed? Do I wait another week before feeding her again? Can I still handle her? * I am a new owner and new to all of this...

Eve's Enclosure

She is chillin on top of her warm side enclosure

You can see the new bowl inside vs the old bowl outside

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._0942_copy.jpg


Eve's Food

Dont laugh at my fridge. I am a single man...LOL

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._0943_copy.jpg

Thanks for any advice!!!

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Welcome to the forum and the wonderful world of snake keeping!

First off, fuzzies and hoppers are too small for a BP. They eat hoppers right out of the egg for only 3-5 meals and quickly move up to small adult mice. (See chart below)

Second it's important to understand the importance of husbandry and security for BPs.
Starting with security, I would advise getting two identical hides that fit snugly and only have one cave like opening. Those hides aren't offering the security BPs crave. They will often sacrifice proper temps in favor of security, and proper identical hides will eliminate this issue.

Adding clutter in the form of fake plants goes a long way too. And "blacking out" the sides and back as well.

Now on to husbandry. Your humidity sounds good, but you only mentioned one temp.
So, the more you tell us the better we can help you.

- How are you heating the enclosure?
- Areyour heat sources regulated by a thermostat??? VERY IMPORTANT
- How are you measuring temps? And where?

- Are you feeding the snake in the enclosure or a seperate feeding tub?


Lastly, I strongly advise no handling of the snake until the snake is eating regularly. For me, that means 3 consecutive meals without refusal. So, since your snake refused last offering, that starts again. No handling until the snake eats 3 meals without a refusal.
You'll have you snake for 25+ years, plenty of time to handle, but the snake needs to be eating and that should be priority over handling.

Wait a week (at LEAST 5 days) from the time you offered last before offering again. Offering too often can stress the snake.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Welcome to the forum and the wonderful world of snake keeping!

First off, fuzzies and hoppers are too small for a BP. They eat hoppers right out of the egg for only 3-5 meals and quickly move up to small adult mice. (See chart below)

Second it's important to understand the importance of husbandry and security for BPs.
Starting with security, I would advise getting two identical hides that fit snugly and only have one cave like opening. Those hides aren't offering the security BPs crave. They will often sacrifice proper temps in favor of security, and proper identical hides will eliminate this issue.

Adding clutter in the form of fake plants goes a long way too. And "blacking out" the sides and back as well.

Now on to husbandry. Your humidity sounds good, but you only mentioned one temp.
So, the more you tell us the better we can help you.

- How are you heating the enclosure?
- Areyour heat sources regulated by a thermostat??? VERY IMPORTANT
- How are you measuring temps? And where?

- Are you feeding the snake in the enclosure or a seperate feeding tub?


Lastly, I strongly advise no handling of the snake until the snake is eating regularly. For me, that means 3 consecutive meals without refusal. So, since your snake refused last offering, that starts again. No handling until the snake eats 3 meals without a refusal.
You'll have you snake for 25+ years, plenty of time to handle, but the snake needs to be eating and that should be priority over handling.

Wait a week (at LEAST 5 days) from the time you offered last before offering again. Offering too often can stress the snake.


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...b571f995ad.jpg

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I am using a UTH underneath the enclosure stuck directly to the enclosure.

I am using a heat controller from Zilla. The one with the dial to control the heating pad. Then I use a digital thermometer/hygrometer to get ambient temps and humidity along with a temperature gun to get surface temps.

*Current ambient temp/humidity reads 78*F / 62%

*Current surface temps reads 80*F (warm side......I have Zilla heat controller dialed to 95*) / 76*F (cool side)

I feed her inside of her enclosure. So no separate feeding tub

Thanks for all the advice. I will be going to the store to get new hides, plants, and something to cover the sides and back of the enclosure.

Also, how often do you completely replace the substrate? I am currently using Aspen but I may switch to the EcoEearth with loose coconut fiber and mix in a little bit of reptibark.

Thanks again!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Along with what everyone else said, an animal that age that has been feeding fairly regularly is likely to be entering a shed cycle. Many will not eat during this period. Check to see if the belly is a little pink. If it is the shed cycle is beginning.

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Thank you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

...Also, how often do you completely replace the substrate? I am currently using Aspen but I may switch to the EcoEearth with loose
coconut fiber and mix in a little bit of reptibark....

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When it's "dirty". It sort of depends how much of a mess they make: if they travel thru fresh droppings to where the whole cage floor is contaminated, you'll want
to change the whole thing, but if they leave you a 'present' in one place (sometimes they use the water bowl or even their old skin as they shed their way out of it)
most of us do a "spot clean" (pick up the feces & immediate surrounding substrate) for a time or two before our eyes & nose tells us to change the whole thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

I am using a UTH underneath the enclosure stuck directly to the enclosure.

I am using a heat controller from Zilla. The one with the dial to control the heating pad. Then I use a digital thermometer/hygrometer to get ambient temps and humidity along with a temperature gun to get surface temps.

*Current ambient temp/humidity reads 78*F / 62%

*Current surface temps reads 80*F (warm side......I have Zilla heat controller dialed to 95*) / 76*F (cool side)

I feed her inside of her enclosure. So no separate feeding tub

Thanks for all the advice. I will be going to the store to get new hides, plants, and something to cover the sides and back of the enclosure.

Also, how often do you completely replace the substrate? I am currently using Aspen but I may switch to the EcoEearth with loose coconut fiber and mix in a little bit of reptibark.

Thanks again!

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Awesome reply, Thanks! I wish everybody made helping them this easy!

All sounds good. Sounds like husbandry is pretty solid. I just want to follow up on one thing, I may have just been confused by the wording. You said you set your t-stat to 95, but I didn't see an actual hot spot temp (the actual surface above the UTH). That sounds about right for a setting, by due to variance in equipment, etc...there's no "magic number". I personally shoot for an 89-90 degree hot spot, with 92 as the max suggested temp.

After some of the tweaks you're planning your security situation will be improved as well. Just choose cave style hides designed for snakes and be careful what you choose for plants. Don't buy plants with suction cups or any exposed wire (often used to create custom shapes), they can be dangerous to your snake.

As for substrate, I use Eco Earth and Repti-bark. I use a different ratio seasonally to help with humidity control. I do full cleanings "as needed". I spot clean whenever theygo to the bathroom, and with that comes some substrate. I usually do full, deep cleans every 3 months or so, depending on species and individual animal.

Good luck! Sounds like you're on the right track. Please keep us posted and ask any questions you may have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Awesome reply, Thanks! I wish everybody made helping them this easy!

All sounds good. Sounds like husbandry is pretty solid. I just want to follow up on one thing, I may have just been confused by the wording. You said you set your t-stat to 95, but I didn't see an actual hot spot temp (the actual surface above the UTH). That sounds about right for a setting, by due to variance in equipment, etc...there's no "magic number". I personally shoot for an 89-90 degree hot spot, with 92 as the max suggested temp.

After some of the tweaks you're planning your security situation will be improved as well. Just choose cave style hides designed for snakes and be careful what you choose for plants. Don't buy plants with suction cups or any exposed wire (often used to create custom shapes), they can be dangerous to your snake.

As for substrate, I use Eco Earth and Repti-bark. I use a different ratio seasonally to help with humidity control. I do full cleanings "as needed". I spot clean whenever theygo to the bathroom, and with that comes some substrate. I usually do full, deep cleans every 3 months or so, depending on species and individual animal.

Good luck! Sounds like you're on the right track. Please keep us posted and ask any questions you may have.

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Thanks for your knowledge and passing that down on to me lol. I appreciate everything.

But yea I currently have the t-stat set to 95 and I get a surface temp (using the temperature gun) of 80*F.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

...Don't buy plants with suction cups or any exposed wire (often used to create custom shapes), they can be dangerous to your snake....

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I just want to add a few things here...personally I'm not a fan of fake plants, no matter how great they look or how functional they are (allowing privacy for snakes).

They don't usually start off with "exposed wires" but they aren't designed for heavy snakes to crawl thru & the plastic parts often come loose from the wires underneath,
leaving sharp wires exposed that will cut up your snake when they crawl thru them. That could happen today, or next year...anytime.

But the other thing is that a few years ago I read an article about the VERY frequent lead (etc) contamination found in plastic plants that typically end up on people's
tables, well within the reach of children's hands. Considering that the countries that make these fake plants are known for safety violations, I think it's worth noting.
(I'm guessing that the lead would be coming from cutting the wires used in the stems?)

Anyway, if you still decide to use these fake plants, I'd suggest washing them thoroughly first with soap & water. Remember that in use, contamination will "hide" all
over them too, so periodic washing & soaking with the soap & the disinfectant of your choice would be a good idea too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

Thanks for your knowledge and passing that down on to me lol. I appreciate everything.

But yea I currently have the t-stat set to 95 and I get a surface temp (using the temperature gun) of 80*F.

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My pleasure, happy to help! We were all beginners once.

...and is that a typo or are you really getting an 80 (eighty) reading?

no typo. the surface temp is reading 80 degrees F

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Thank you! I will keep that in mind!

That 80 degree surface temp is something I struggled with. I found if I was going to get any kind of surface temp the first issue was way to much substrate. I was told 1-1/2 to 2” and no way would a UTH heat that up. I scaled it down and it’s approximately 1/2” now. I see 87-89 with thermostate set at 90. I get about 78-80 on cold side. Next was getting a good ambient temperature and found just heating under tank did nothing for ambient air temperature. I did not care for heat lamps and light cycle considerations so I use a thermostat regulated ceramic heat emitter set at 90 on hot side over UTH. On cold side I see air temps at snake height at 78 and 90 on hot. In center of tank it’s 84-85. I also covered 2/3 of tank to retain humidity. That I maintain at close to 50 percent or up. It was around 70 for the recent shed and it was a one piece shed.
My Pastel would not eat with a surface temp at 80. With the tank set as I explained above I have zero issues feeding and when it’s feeding day she is done eating quickly.
After many issues and some equipment failures this has been my success. I was also able to switch not only from live to F/T but mouse to rat all at once. I am basing this off of my snakes actions. She hides a lot but comes out and explores her environment usually at twilight. She when handled is very calm and shows no aggression and isn’t lethargic either. I have only been at snake keeping a very short period of time (6-7 weeks and have so much to learn but I really think if I were in your shoes I would get a secondary heat source. There are those with far more experience on here and I am curious what they have to say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

My pleasure, happy to help! We were all beginners once.

...and is that a typo or are you really getting an 80 (eighty) reading?

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Ok, are you measuring the top of the substrate? Or the actual glass surface? You should be reading the actual glass surface because they can ad will burrow, move substrate around etc... so you want your surface temp at 89-90ish. If you try to get the substrate to that temp and the snake burrows and reaches the glass the glass will be too hot and potentially burn your snake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jakethesnake69

That 80 degree surface temp is something I struggled with. I found if I was going to get any kind of surface temp the first issue was way to much substrate. I was told 1-1/2 to 2” and no way would a UTH heat that up. I scaled it down and it’s approximately 1/2” now. I see 87-89 with thermostate set at 90. I get about 78-80 on cold side. Next was getting a good ambient temperature and found just heating under tank did nothing for ambient air temperature. I did not care for heat lamps and light cycle considerations so I use a thermostat regulated ceramic heat emitter set at 90 on hot side over UTH. On cold side I see air temps at snake height at 78 and 90 on hot. In center of tank it’s 84-85. I also covered 2/3 of tank to retain humidity. That I maintain at close to 50 percent or up. It was around 70 for the recent shed and it was a one piece shed.
My Pastel would not eat with a surface temp at 80. With the tank set as I explained above I have zero issues feeding and when it’s feeding day she is done eating quickly.
After many issues and some equipment failures this has been my success. I was also able to switch not only from live to F/T but mouse to rat all at once. I am basing this off of my snakes actions. She hides a lot but comes out and explores her environment usually at twilight. She when handled is very calm and shows no aggression and isn’t lethargic either. I have only been at snake keeping a very short period of time (6-7 weeks and have so much to learn but I really think if I were in your shoes I would get a secondary heat source. There are those with far more experience on here and I am curious what they have to say.

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Thank you!

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Ok, are you measuring the top of the substrate? Or the actual glass surface? You should be reading the actual glass surface because they can ad will burrow, move substrate around etc... so you want your surface temp at 89-90ish. If you try to get the substrate to that temp and the snake burrows and reaches the glass the glass will be too hot and potentially burn your snake.

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I am measuring the top of the substrate. Will do!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

Thank you!

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I am measuring the top of the substrate. Will do!

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Sounds good! :gj:

So new problem....She hasn't came out of her hide in the past 3 days...Lord...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

So new problem....She hasn't came out of her hide in the past 3 days...Lord...

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I bet you anything she has. You were just asleep lol.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

So new problem....She hasn't came out of her hide in the past 3 days...Lord...

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Probably just in a shed-cycle. This is why most of us have multiple snakes, so we always have a snake to hang out with! :rofl:

Relax...

lol possibly. She was usually out and about around the same time i got back from work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alittleFREE

I bet you anything she has. You were just asleep lol.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Probably just in a shed-cycle. This is why most of us have multiple snakes, so we always have a snake to hang out with! :rofl:

Relax...

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:D Yea she's good...just me lol

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Originally Posted by dp124

:D Yea she's good...just me lol

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I feel you. I just got a new girl on Sunday and have been freaking out all week about getting her to eat come feeding day. Without a doubt, I think I've been more worried about it than she has. She seemed perfectly content haha.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alittleFREE

I feel you. I just got a new girl on Sunday and have been freaking out all week about getting her to eat come feeding day. Without a doubt, I think I've been more worried about it than she has. She seemed perfectly content haha.

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haha! yea she's just chillin right now doing what she does. Never thought I'd be this worried about a snake. But thats a good thing I guess

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

So new problem....She hasn't came out of her hide in the past 3 days...Lord...

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If I was a gambling man, I'd bet the house on upcoming shed.
Bump humidity to 70% and let her be. She'll shed in anywhere from 5-10 days from now.

Yea I just moved her water bowl directly on the warm side. If I don't achieve 70% humidity, what are other ways to help raise the humidity? I've already purchased her a bigger water bowl and it takes up the whole corner in a 10 gal setup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

Yea I just moved her water bowl directly on the warm side. If I don't achieve 70% humidity, what are other ways to help raise the humidity? I've already purchased her a bigger water bowl and it takes up the whole corner in a 10 gal setup.

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Misting daily and partially covering the screen lid (I’m assuming it’s a screen lid if you have a 10 gal) with aluminum foil.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by alittleFREE

Misting daily and partially covering the screen lid (I’m assuming it’s a screen lid if you have a 10 gal) with aluminum foil.


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As above .

As soon as they go into shed mode ( or hide away for days ) just start spraying well a few times daily .
Works wonders and virtually guarantees a good shed ..


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

Yea I just moved her water bowl directly on the warm side. If I don't achieve 70% humidity, what are other ways to help raise the humidity? I've already purchased her a bigger water bowl and it takes up the whole corner in a 10 gal setup.

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If you haven't already covered the majority of the screen lid, that would be a great start. I used to use cardboard wrapped in aluminum foil and that worked well for helping keep humidity in. Now, however, I use 1/2" foam board insulation to wrap the back and sides and then cut a piece for the top. As for doing just the top, cut a piece of whatever you're using to fit, then cut out a hole for your lamp (assuming you're using one) slightly larger than the diameter of the lamp. If you use cardboard, wrap it in aluminum foil (uncovered cardboard will actually soak up humidity and have the opposite effect) and securely tape the foil in place. Voila, lay it on top and it will hold your humidity in while syill allowing plenty of ventaltaion. If you use the insulation, lay the foil side down.

You can also use sphangnum moss in their hides to create a humid hide. It should be damp, not soaking wet. Simply wet it, ring it out and place a bit in each hide. Then mist as needed.

UPDATE:

So now she's back out of her hide, however, there are no signs of shedding...:confusd:....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

UPDATE:

So now she's back out of her hide, however, there are no signs of shedding...:confusd:....

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They "go clear" shortly before they shed...their body secretes moisture that makes the old outer skin mostly "see-thru". You aren't the first snake-keeper to be
confused by this. That moisture helps the old (outer) skin come off, and if you happen to be right there when the skin is shed, you can feel how moist it is...but it
dries out quickly. If you're inclined to save the shed skin for "show & tell", the time to straighten it out is when it's freshly-shed & a little moist; once it dries, it's
likely to tear when you try to work with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

UPDATE:

So now she's back out of her hide, however, there are no signs of shedding...:confusd:....

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Like said above, they go clear for anywhere from a day to a handful of days before actually shedding.
They shed when they're ready, so there's no real "timeline". It varies snake to snake. But I'm sure you'll see a rolled up pile of shed skin, likely in a hide (and often next to a big ol' pile of poop), within a few days.

Thanks, everyone. So my next question. Should I try to feed her or wait till she sheds?

Wait until she sheds, unless you just like to be frustrated & throw food away. Some might eat, others won't...why bother? snake is NOT starving...just wait.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dp124

Thanks, everyone. So my next question. Should I try to feed her or wait till she sheds?

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Completely up yo you. Some eat, some don't. You won't know unless you try, but waiting a few more days won't hurt. In my experience, I've never had a refusal post shed with my snakes who don't eat in shed.
My King is my only snake who dies in eat shed. I tried the others all once, they refused so now I wait them out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Completely up yo you. Some eat, some don't. You won't know unless you try, but waiting a few more days won't hurt. In my experience, I've never had a refusal post shed with my snakes who don't eat in shed.
My King is my only snake who dies in eat shed. I tried the others all once, they refused so now I wait them out.

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ok cool! Thanks again!