What causes stubby tails?

Anybody know what causes stubby tails? I’m assuming it has something to do with incubation because I have two clutch’s, both have babies with short tails and some have stub tails. I’m fearful that my 3rd clutch will also turn out like this. I hope to figure this out before I try incubating any new eggs. I incubated at 89.0 very consistent controlled with a herpstat and had a consistent 99% humidity. I’m clueless to what could of gone wrong. If it was just one clutch or just a couple babies I would of just said bad luck but out of 2 clutches and 17 babies, not one has a normal tail so I’m pretty sure it has to be an incubation problem, I just don’t understand what could of gone wrong. Any help would be appreciated.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

Anybody know what causes stubby tails? I’m assuming it has something to do with incubation because I have two clutch’s, both have babies with short tails and some have stub tails. I’m fearful that my 3rd clutch will also turn out like this. I hope to figure this out before I try incubating any new eggs. I incubated at 89.0 very consistent controlled with a herpstat and had a consistent 99% humidity. I’m clueless to what could of gone wrong. If it was just one clutch or just a couple babies I would of just said bad luck but out of 2 clutches and 17 babies, not one has a normal tail so I’m pretty sure it has to be an incubation problem, I just don’t understand what could of gone wrong. Any help would be appreciated.

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I don't think I've never seen this unless it is subtle differences between male female deal. You pop them yet? Pictures please.

BTW, i am incubating at 87 ambient. This is giving me egg temps of 89. I still haven't proved it but I believe the eggs generate heat. The eggs could be hotter than you think.

This is how the worst ones are, males can’t fit their hemipenes in the tail it’s so short. The better ones are just a noticeably shorter tail but should not affect anything including breeding, they pop like normal.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...feaef87cac.jpg


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Oh wow. Definitely not a male female issue. Not good. Have you ever done that pairing before? Are the clutches related? If it is not incubation related that pretty much leaves genetics. Get an egg temp on the remain clutch if there is one.

I am going to look this up in my vet books when I get home, but i don't remember seeing anything like that.

I recommend for now dropping the temp to 87 or 88. It will take longer but it won't hurt.\

The females may be fine with the defect, but if it were me, i would keep the males on damp paper and measure the tails against the body to get a ratio and establish if the tail is trying to grow to normal length. If not the boys will have to be put down because they are going to be very infection prone.

I don't know but I'm thinking "genetics" too. That's a shame...:(

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I don't know but I'm thinking "genetics" too. That's a shame...:(

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It definitely is NOT genetics. 2 completely different clutches, different males, different females, all babies affected. Both pairs of parents have normal tails.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Oh wow. Definitely not a male female issue. Not good. Have you ever done that pairing before? Are the clutches related? If it is not incubation related that pretty much leaves genetics. Get an egg temp on the remain clutch if there is one.

I am going to look this up in my vet books when I get home, but i don't remember seeing anything like that.

I recommend for now dropping the temp to 87 or 88. It will take longer but it won't hurt.\

The females may be fine with the defect, but if it were me, i would keep the males on damp paper and measure the tails against the body to get a ratio and establish if the tail is trying to grow to normal length. If not the boys will have to be put down because they are going to be very infection prone.

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Im at the same thought process as you so far. After the first clutch hatched I took the ambient down to 88. The second clutch hatched only a week later though and the damage was already done.

like you said, I think the eggs must be getting hotter than my ambient, it’s the only thing I can think of.

as of right now I plan to keep the females and hopefully they can breed like normal so it’s not a total loss.

The males are a waiting game. I have them on wet paper towels waiting for their first shed. They are a little over a week old and so far no improvement so euthanasia is starting to become more of a real possibility. I am extremely disappointed and I’m really hoping I can keep them alive even if they will be ‘pet only’

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Originally Posted by rufretic

Im at the same thought process as you so far. After the first clutch hatched I took the ambient down to 88. The second clutch hatched only a week later though and the damage was already done.

like you said, I think the eggs must be getting hotter than my ambient, it’s the only thing I can think of.

as of right now I plan to keep the females and hopefully they can breed like normal so it’s not a total loss.

The males are a waiting game. I have them on wet paper towels waiting for their first shed. They are a little over a week old and so far no improvement so euthanasia is starting to become more of a real possibility. I am extremely disappointed and I’m really hoping I can keep them alive even if they will be ‘pet only’

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The odds say that you are probably right. I hope the temp change fixes the issue and that the tail growth issue is temporary (i don't think it is, but it is worth waiting a couple weeks before you put them down).

Considering you are dealing with to different sets of animal you are looking at an incubation issue which could be the result of a sudden heat spike (depending on when it occur and what stage the animals are could could affect different clutches different way or not at all)

Or you are incubating too high unknowingly.

I have explained before how I incubate but will do it again in case that helps, I have one dummy egg box setup in the middle of my incubator where my thermostat probe is setup, than I have 2 thermometer one in the middle tub on the very top and one in the middle tub at the very bottom.

The variance between the thermostat and thermometer reading is about 1.5 - 2 degrees and I strive to have a temperature in the egg tub at 88. (My T-Stat is setup at 86.5)

Over the years I have changed temperatures going lower and lower, take longer and requires more patience but overall I like it better this way.

Wow! That is some picture.

Another possibility is a borderline vitamin/mineral deficiency in the female or possibly in both parents. It can happen in humans, too. https://www.leanhealthyandwise.com/c...birth-defects/

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Originally Posted by paulh

Wow! That is some picture.

Another possibility is a borderline vitamin/mineral deficiency in the female or possibly in both parents. It can happen in humans, too. https://www.leanhealthyandwise.com/c...birth-defects/

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I was thinking it could be related to the adults nutrition too or possibly even something as odd as a chemical that your collection is exposed to to create the birth defects? I just dont think its likely that clutches that are a week apart in the incubation process would develope the same defect by something like a temperature spike.

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Well I have some new info. Tonight after reading the ideas here that my eggs may actually be warmer than what I have my ambient set to, I decided it's not hard to find out because I still have one remaining clutch in the incubator. I have a temperature gun so I just zapped them and yep, they are definitely warmer for whatever reason. I have my thermostat set to 88 now and the eggs still read at 90.4. Which means when I had it set to 89 they could of possibly been cooking at up to 91-92 :mad: It's sad to think just a couple degrees could have such a major affect on all my babies :( I'm pretty sure this is my answer though, I was incubating too warm. I just wish I would of thought to check them right away, I just thought I was good because I did have an extra egg box setup with a thermometer in it and it was reading 89 as well. I have no idea why the eggs would be warmer than the ambient but I know now I need to set my herpstat at 87.0 to get the eggs around 89.

One other thing to note, I believe the damage was done very early in the incubation process. My first clutch was maternally incubated for up to the first 6 days because I was out of town when she laid. That clutch was affected but mostly just with short tails, only 2 of 10 were nubs. The second clutch was put in the incubator within a day of being laid and all 7 are nubs with practically no tails. This means my third clutch is most likely going to turn out the same because they were also put in within a day. I'll follow up with how they turn out, unfortunately I'm not very hopeful :(

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Originally Posted by Hannahshissyfix

...or possibly even something as odd as a chemical that your collection is exposed to to create the birth defects? ...

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On that note, https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/top...rine/index.cfm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ealthcare.html
https://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/13419...like-chemicals

There's a number of similar articles about such issues with plastics, and no matter how convenient it is & how essential it is in our everyday lives for so many uses
(not the least of which is medical), it's one reason why I use glass tanks & not plastic tubs for housing. Plastics are made from a variety of toxic stuff, & when you
heat plastics not even remotely designed for that use, you greatly increase the exposure. It's just something to think about...

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Originally Posted by rufretic

... It's sad to think just a couple degrees could have such a major affect on all my babies :( I'm pretty sure this is my answer though,
I was incubating too warm....

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I agree that's a possibility, though what seems odd to me is that for all the people breeding BPs, surely this minor temperature issue has occurred before?
Only a few degrees...why only yours? Granted, I am NOT a breeder of BPs, but many here are & no one seems to have seen this before...isn't that a bit odd?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I agree that's a possibility, though what seems odd to me is that for all the people breeding BPs, surely this minor temperature issue has occurred before?
Only a few degrees...why only yours? Granted, I am NOT a breeder of BPs, but many here are & no one seems to have seen this before...isn't that a bit odd?

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It's funny you bring this up because I thought the exact same thing when I searched and searched and couldn't even find a pic resembling my stubby tail babies. I just don't know what else it could be. I thought about toxins but I'm using the same stuff everyone uses, sterlite tubs, plastic light diffuser and vermiculite, I even made sure to get vermiculite that had no extra ingredients. I'll tell you what, if the lower temps doesn't stop it from happening on my next clutch I'm going to scrap the whole incubator and start from scratch. Last year I used a cooler and had a perfect 7 of 7 babies. This year is my first year with this incubator because I needed more room. It was used by the previous owner though and he had plenty of healthy babies hatch out of it so I'm just at a loss. It's very frustrating, My first clutch was full of desert ghost babies and one of the males that got the stub tail would of been a couple thousand dollar snake and the next clutch is clown combos so I'm not just sad about the lives, it also is a huge loss in invested time and money. I've never been so disappointed in my life. Not to mention I'm probably going to have to euthanize a bunch of little babies that I love :tears:

I can just imagine how thoroughly crushed I'd feel in your shoes....:tears: Hard enough just to read about this.

Definitely gonna incubate my future clutches at the cooler end of the spectrum... seems alot more can go wrong when they get too hot than a bit cool.

On a good note, a couple of the females from the first clutch had their first shed and are doing well. They have short tails but I don’t see why it would affect them in any negative way so I’ll keep them and hopefully still get a couple nice breeders out of that clutch.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9c8c5cabf5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2b3157afdf.jpg


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Originally Posted by rufretic

Well I have some new info. Tonight after reading the ideas here that my eggs may actually be warmer than what I have my ambient set to, I decided it's not hard to find out because I still have one remaining clutch in the incubator. I have a temperature gun so I just zapped them and yep, they are definitely warmer for whatever reason. I have my thermostat set to 88 now and the eggs still read at 90.4. Which means when I had it set to 89 they could of possibly been cooking at up to 91-92 :mad: It's sad to think just a couple degrees could have such a major affect on all my babies :( I'm pretty sure this is my answer though, I was incubating too warm. I just wish I would of thought to check them right away, I just thought I was good because I did have an extra egg box setup with a thermometer in it and it was reading 89 as well. I have no idea why the eggs would be warmer than the ambient but I know now I need to set my herpstat at 87.0 to get the eggs around 89.

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I discovered this by accident. In the beginning I was super anal about monitoring temps and running three different probes. My readings were so flaky i thought my gauges were off but they were all within a 10th of a degree of each other. I also noticed the heating in my incubator rarely cut on, so something had to be making heat. This lead to me placing the thermostat probe between a couple eggs. It is almost always 2 degrees above the incubator's ambient. All of this led to me setting the thermostat to 87. The readings you are getting are consistent with what I found.

Also, another little tidbit of data. Once the shells begin to soften the egg temp rises. Due to this, my primary probe is always placed in the oldest clutch.

So now we know my temps were a couple degrees too warm but do we even think that would cause such a deformity? I did also get one kinked baby in each clutch. No deaths though, they all were alive.

Ah, more data. I am going with heat. That said, I had a single kinked baby this year. No heat spikes that I know of. Everything else has hatched well but I have four clutches to go.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

So now we know my temps were a couple degrees too warm but do we even think that would cause such a deformity? I did also get one kinked baby in each clutch. No deaths though, they all were alive.

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I still find it odd that if it were only related to your heat being a few degrees higher it would cause the same defect in so many babies. with thousands of other breeders out there using slightly different temps or just faulty incubators it seems it would be a commonly documented result of temps being too high at this point. I guess you'll never know for sure but adjusting the temp for your next clutches can be a starting point to rule that out.

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Originally Posted by Hannahshissyfix

I still find it odd that if it were only related to your heat being a few degrees higher it would cause the same defect in so many babies. with thousands of other breeders out there using slightly different temps or just faulty incubators it seems it would be a commonly documented result of temps being too high at this point. I guess you'll never know for sure but adjusting the temp for your next clutches can be a starting point to rule that out.

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I actually agree with you, it just doesn’t make sense that nobody has seen this before. The problem is, I can’t find anything else to blame. It will be interesting to see if the 3rd clutch has the same issue. If it does then there is no doubt something is very wrong with this incubator setup. I would like to test another clutch with the new adjusted temps before I scrap this incubator but I’m not sure when my next clutch will come and I’d hate to risk multiple clutches if I have to wait until next season. I guess for now I need to just wait and see how this last clutch turns out.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

I actually agree with you, it just doesn’t make sense that nobody has seen this before. The problem is, I can’t find anything else to blame. It will be interesting to see if the 3rd clutch has the same issue. If it does then there is no doubt something is very wrong with this incubator setup. I would like to test another clutch with the new adjusted temps before I scrap this incubator but I’m not sure when my next clutch will come and I’d hate to risk multiple clutches if I have to wait until next season. I guess for now I need to just wait and see how this last clutch turns out.

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The other confusing part is you said it was a used incubator that previously caused no issues. Im almost more leaning towards something with your adults via chemical exposure, water, diet. Any switch in feeder rat supply? Maybe some odd chance the feeder rats were on a poor diet that passed on some vitamin deficiency? What do you wash your tubs with? Local water supply have something going on with it?

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Originally Posted by Hannahshissyfix

The other confusing part is you said it was a used incubator that previously caused no issues. Im almost more leaning towards something with your adults via chemical exposure, water, diet. Any switch in feeder rat supply? Maybe some odd chance the feeder rats were on a poor diet that passed on some vitamin deficiency? What do you wash your tubs with? Local water supply have something going on with it?

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I don’t use chemicals to clean, only water. No change in rats that I know of. I’m on well water so I suppose the water could have an issue, I should get it tested. My family and I drink bottled water so I have not had the well water tested in years.

Well water eh? Pesticides can seep into well water and are known to cause birth defects.....

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Originally Posted by Alter-Echo

Well water eh? Pesticides can seep into well water and are known to cause birth defects.....

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Pesticides aren't the only risk, all sorts of things can be an issue, stuff like heavy metals, nitrites/nitrates, etc. No telling the effects on snakes. :(

https://www.epa.gov/privatewells/pot...-their-impacts

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Originally Posted by Alter-Echo

Well water eh? Pesticides can seep into well water and are known to cause birth defects.....

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I don’t use chemicals on my property but who knows what the neighbors are putting on their lawns.

So far this third clutch is perfect, 2 out of 5 so far. It’s weird but seems that extra degree or two was enough to cause birth defects. If it was only one clutch I would of said it was just a genetic thing but it looks like it was just incubation error on my part.


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Originally Posted by rufretic

So far this third clutch is perfect, 2 out of 5 so far. It’s weird but seems that extra degree or two was enough to cause birth defects. If it was only one clutch I would of said it was just a genetic thing but it looks like it was just incubation error on my part.


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Yeah, I believe two degrees on the high end is enough to cause problems. Glad you got to the bottom of it.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Yeah, I believe two degrees on the high end is enough to cause problems. Glad you got to the bottom of it.

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I almost wonder if it could of even been a heat spike that only affected the first two because the 3rd clutch was not in yet. It’s hard to say for sure but half of this 3rd clutches incubation time was at the same temp setting as the other two and these guys all turned out perfect 5/5.