Transitioning 6 y.o BP from hoopers to rats.. help!

http://https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...sjaisauet.jpeg Upon recently posting a picture of my ball python, it has been suggested that maybe he is under fed. We just took him in from a family friend two months ago. We know he is at least 60 years old and around 3‘9“ to 3‘10“ based on the length of his last shedding. The person that gave him to us told us that he was fed three small hoppers every 7 to 14 days however many people are telling me that that is not enough for a snake this size. I have never owned a snake before so this is all fairly new to me. For the past 3 to 4 weeks, ever since he started getting comfortable in his larger habitat compared to the last one, he has constantly been out of his hides and climbing on the walls of the tank, as well as constantly putting his nose to the cover of the tank as if he wants to get out. Since I have had more than one person suggest that he is under fed and should be feeding on rats by now, I decided to go out and buy three frozen small rats to start transitioning him to larger food. He just ate three hoppers on Friday night and has already digested his meal as of last night.

My question is, I am wondering if I should feed him one small frozen racks today or if it is too soon after his last meal? Should I feed him one frozen small rat every seven days until he moves to larger ones? Or should I try feeding him two small rats in Seven days?

Day and night he is exploring his cage and mostly sniffing the cover which I’m starting to think it’s because he is so hungry. The only time I catch him in his hide is early morning when we first wake up. Once we wake up and he knows we are up and about the room, even with his cage covered on the sides, He is still up and about waiting for something. Any suggestions on when and how many wraps I should start feeding him?

What is his weight?

What I would recommend is to feed adult mice once a week for 3 to 5 meals give him time to adjust to the size. Once used to the size offer a rat that is the same size as the mouse offered and move up in size accordingly (see our feeding chart in the husbandry section)

Hoppers are what hatchling out of the eggs are offered so yes this animal has been severely underfed, and the priority IMO is to get the food size right rather than attempting to switch which can take weeks or even months and means no food during that time until the animal switches.

Yeah mine was a punk about switching from mice to rats. In the end i would get a pinky and rub it on the rats and that seemed to work. After doing that a few times, he took and now is excited about rats. It took a couple months for him to switch.
I second deborah's thoughts on the issue.

Yep. What Deb said. I would also be tackling a proper set up with temps and humidity. You are well on your way to having a healthy noodle.

So, going from 3 small mice in one meal to a small rat is too big of a jump? I have a small rat defrosting now. The rat is probably twice the size of the mice but I didn’t think of the size issue since he takes 3 mice within 15 minutes..

I think that the concern with jumping from hopper mice to small rats is not as much of a size issue as it is a species issue. Many ball pythons take a long time to transition from mice to rats, and starting this process now is likely not the best idea as the animal is underfed and wouldn’t be getting as much food during the transition period. What the others are saying is that it’s more important to get him to a healthy weight right now and transition to rats after he has gotten accustomed to the size of an adult rat :).

Someone more experienced than me is totally welcome to correct me, this is just my take on it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BPmom

So, going from 3 small mice in one meal to a small rat is too big of a jump? I have a small rat defrosting now. The rat is probably twice the size of the mice but I didn’t think of the size issue since he takes 3 mice within 15 minutes..

---

Not the point

A/ we don't know the weight of the animal so what I call small (and what experience people and feeder producer call small) is 55 to 75 grams rat would be a HUGE jump in size since a mouse hopper is about 10 grams.

Of course if you have the wrong terms it does not help either.

B/ It's not about switching right now, it's about getting back on track with proper feeding regimen.

Again switching can take MONTHS during which the animal is not offered food if he refuses and he has already been underfed.

Changing prey is a major deal for most snake if you add to that offering a prey 7 times the size this is not gonna help.

Again what is his weight? Because that is where you need to start if you want to know what size to offer weekly.

Next weigh your feeder as well because a small rat is not twice the size of a hopper.

http://<a href="http://s346.photobuc...&#91;/IMG]</a>



these are the mice we have been feeding him. Not sure if these are ‘hoppers’

I can't see the pic

<a href="http://s346.photobucket.com/user/alyshalessor/media/3FAA9EED-2A70-4DE1-A618-8270B83F0561_zps0kdcryr3.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p410/alyshalessor/3FAA9EED-2A70-4DE1-A618-8270B83F0561_zps0kdcryr3.png" border="0" alt=" photo 3FAA9EED-2A70-4DE1-A618-8270B83F0561_zps0kdcryr3.png"/></a>

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ps0kdcryr3.png[/IMG]

I can’t see it on my phone but if you click the box it will bring you to the photo.

Or here is the url to it

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps0kdcryr3.png

Tough to tell juat looking, with no known weight.

I am going to work on weighing him today.

My fiancé got a hold of the previous owner to see if he had ever been fed rats or frozen. She told him that he would eat 3 small mice OR one small rat but that she had never fed him rats before nevermind frozen ones.

I paced back and forth just worrying that the rat may be a bit big for him in one meal but I know snakes can swallow prey bigger than their mouths lol so I thawed out a small rat for him. He could smell it so he was searching and searching even before I put it in there. Going from live to frozen, I completely forgot about the feeding tongs for the frozen rat until last minute so while he was on one side of the tank, I dropped the warmed up rat on his log hide. He instantly rushed to that side and not even hesitating for a second, took the rat no problem. I was so shocked! I know a lot of snakes are harder to transition from mice to rats or from live to frozen, but he was so hungry he took it down! AND he stayed in his hide all day yesterday (with the exception of night exploring of course.) Now, I just have to watch for regurgitation (not sure how long that would take IF it were going to happen), and if I am able to feed him one small rat every 7 days. He was on hunting mode still until yesterday evening so I figured id give him an extra day to digest and enjoy a full belly before handling him.

Im going to make another thread, but for a UTH, any suggestions for a thermostat? Im having trouble finding one near me so I am going to have to order online and theres a lot of debate between a rheostat or a thermostat. (a set temp controller or a dimmer).

Thanks again everyone!!!!

firstly, make sure your husbandry is on point. one hot hide w/ a UTH, one cold hide, thermostats/hygrometers to measure temps and humidity. Personally speaking- you want a hot spot of about 90-95, ambient temp of about 80-82 on the hot side and about 72-75 on the cold. again, these numbers are a personal preference based on what my danger noodle perfers and thrives at.

as far as FEEDING goes: my suggestion would be first starting to feed him LARGE ADULT mice. get a bigger, more sustainable meal in him and the hunting and pacing around the tank should start to subside. my friend has a female BP who still to this day will not eat rats, but she is happy and healthy eating an adult mouse once a week. work on getting bigger meals in him, then try and get him from a large mouse to a similar sized rat. they smell different to the snake, so trying to make them look and seem similar as prey should help.

ALSO make sure you weigh him EMPTY (aka after he urates/poops and before you feed again) it's kind of hard to say an average weight, but I'd say a healthy +3ft male should be EASILY 700g.... my female is about 3ft 8in and she weighs 982g just to give kind of an idea.


keep us posted!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BPmom

I am going to work on weighing him today.

My fiancé got a hold of the previous owner to see if he had ever been fed rats or frozen. She told him that he would eat 3 small mice OR one small rat but that she had never fed him rats before nevermind frozen ones.

I paced back and forth just worrying that the rat may be a bit big for him in one meal but I know snakes can swallow prey bigger than their mouths lol so I thawed out a small rat for him. He could smell it so he was searching and searching even before I put it in there. Going from live to frozen, I completely forgot about the feeding tongs for the frozen rat until last minute so while he was on one side of the tank, I dropped the warmed up rat on his log hide. He instantly rushed to that side and not even hesitating for a second, took the rat no problem. I was so shocked! I know a lot of snakes are harder to transition from mice to rats or from live to frozen, but he was so hungry he took it down! AND he stayed in his hide all day yesterday (with the exception of night exploring of course.) Now, I just have to watch for regurgitation (not sure how long that would take IF it were going to happen), and if I am able to feed him one small rat every 7 days. He was on hunting mode still until yesterday evening so I figured id give him an extra day to digest and enjoy a full belly before handling him.

Im going to make another thread, but for a UTH, any suggestions for a thermostat? Im having trouble finding one near me so I am going to have to order online and theres a lot of debate between a rheostat or a thermostat. (a set temp controller or a dimmer).

Thanks again everyone!!!!

---

AMAZON- Thermometer/hygrometer- OMEM 2 pack digital (theyre like $12 and work amazingly, i bought 6 to always have extra lol)
AMAZON- iPower 40-108 digital heat mat thermostat- $21.19

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jcorsaletti

firstly, make sure your husbandry is on point. one hot hide w/ a UTH, one cold hide, thermostats/hygrometers to measure temps and humidity. Personally speaking- you want a hot spot of about 90-95, ambient temp of about 80-82 on the hot side and about 72-75 on the cold. again, these numbers are a personal preference based on what my danger noodle perfers and thrives at.

as far as FEEDING goes: my suggestion would be first starting to feed him LARGE ADULT mice. get a bigger, more sustainable meal in him and the hunting and pacing around the tank should start to subside. my friend has a female BP who still to this day will not eat rats, but she is happy and healthy eating an adult mouse once a week. work on getting bigger meals in him, then try and get him from a large mouse to a similar sized rat. they smell different to the snake, so trying to make them look and seem similar as prey should help.

ALSO make sure you weigh him EMPTY (aka after he urates/poops and before you feed again) it's kind of hard to say an average weight, but I'd say a healthy +3ft male should be EASILY 700g.... my female is about 3ft 8in and she weighs 982g just to give kind of an idea.


keep us posted!

---

First, these temps are off.
Hot spot should be no higher than 92, but you'll find most experienced keepers, myself included, go.89-90.
Also, temps should never drop below 75.
Not to be rude, but having one snake for 5 months doesn't equal the experience needed to tell what the snake "prefers" or thrives at.

Also, a 6 year old female BP should be eating much more than a single large mouse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jcorsaletti

firstly, make sure your husbandry is on point. one hot hide w/ a UTH, one cold hide, thermostats/hygrometers to measure temps and humidity. Personally speaking- you want a hot spot of about 90-95, ambient temp of about 80-82 on the hot side and about 72-75 on the cold. again, these numbers are a personal preference based on what my danger noodle perfers and thrives at.

---

Before giving advice you actually might want to make sure your advice is sound.

You do not want the cool end to fall below 75, below 75 is considered unhealthy.

And 92 is the most I would recommend for a hot side everything is is over-killed and 95 is TOO HOT

No offence but you have owned your FIRST BP since 01-04-2018 ;)

I ended up going to Home Depot and the guy there told me that he knew what I was talking about but turns out.. he talked me into purchasing the wrong thing!

I know what I’m looking for, just tried my best buying locally but APPARENTLY that’s not gonna happen.

Soooo my little guy is now acting like a ball python and is in his hide most of the day with the exception of his nightly wandering. He weighs about 510 grams. I’m already seeing a difference since feeding him the small rat and since he took the last one no problem, I’m going to start feeding him on a weekly basis.

I just wanted to add that a bp that moved around all day and night does not necessarily mean it is only hungry. Many other threads where the bp was "active" like this and the owner misunderstood that behavior as driven by hunger or wanting to say "hi" to the owners. A content bp would be hiding during the day, fairly active at night especially close to feeding day, and gets into a strike pose when it is ready to eat, usually the day before or on feeding day. My bp is always found this way on feeding day. When he was not eating due to stress, he was super active and it is easy to misinterpret that as hunger by he would not eat at the time. Sometimes it is because the husbandry was not on point and it is looking for a more suited environment to live in. It is not like most corns or kings where they actively seek prey and tackles it down without a strike pose.

I'm glad your bp took the rat at first try. Please note my comments are based on my experience and what most others (including breeders) experienced too. So if your bp is being super active day and night, please double check your temps to make sure everything is on point. For example, log hides are usually not recommended. BP likes to feel snug. A hide with a small opening works great. You can pick up a large dog bowl, cat litter pan or plastic bowl as a hide. I recently bought a large dog bowl from Petsupermarket for $10, drilled a hole and stuff the extra space with papertowels (Moss, fake plants or newspaper works too) for my growing bp. He loves his new hides.

About the thermostat, I use the one from Zilla or Zoo med, cannot remember, sold at Chewy. It is not cheap but it has been working well. I also bought a thermostat from Amazon that is advertised for general use (reptiles and plants) and it was much more affordable. I use that for my Children Python with no issues. Always confirm the temps using a temp gun or digital probe thermometer but temp guns are preferred.