Feeding Aging Pythons

I am new to the forum (first post) and I am hoping that someone has had a similar experience... I have owned my Ball for 28+ years and I was wondering is snakes can lose their "senses" with age? Most specifically their sense of smell?

I am not sure of the sex of my snake but Tattoo has been called a she her entire life based on the not always reliable method of tail shape. She is has always been housed in an old school glass terrarium with a screen top, incandescents for heat, and paper towels for substrate. She has a hide on the warm side of the tank. I rinse and refill her water dish daily with filtered water. She is offered one thawed jumbo mouse a week in a separate feeding tub. She is handled frequently and is allowed to roam my bedroom whenever I notice that she wants out. The only major change is that I switched from live to frozen a couple of years ago. I realize that some will have issue with both the substrate and the size of her meals but after 28 years I doubt that either of those are causing my current problem.

She has gone through fasting periods many times throughout the years but, while stressful, they were self-limiting and had no apparent ill effects. However her latest fast had extended into its fifth month accompanied by increasing restlessness. In the past when I let her out of the cage she might roam around for an hour and then settle in a favorite warm spot. Now she was constantly moving and climbing and not settling. I tried to feed her again during these periods of restlessness but she still refused to eat. In desperation I finally left the mouse in her cage overnight and she ate it! Huge relief!

She has continued to eat for the past five weeks but only if I feed her in the cage and only after several attempts. It is pathetic to watch as she crawls over and over the mouse but can't find it. She noses it, loses it, mouths it, loses it and finally gets the job done. Her eyesight seems fine, her muscle tone is good, she is well hydrated. I was thinking maybe her Jacobson's organ was failing? Has anyone had a similar experience? Is there a super mouse scent that might help her?

Thanks!

welcome to the forum! ironically, your profile is showing you have 3 posts. :confusd:

28 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is incredible! do you have photos to share? (here's a how-to on sharing photos with our forum).

i can't really comment on your current questions as i'd rather leave this to someone more experienced than myself, but i just wanted to say welcome and to ask for a picture of your old noodle friend. :)

What a great question! And congratulations for caring for your python for so long. I've had some pretty old snakes too, and I've seen similar issues.
I can't say (with scientific proof) that they lose their sense of smell, but anecdotally agree that it sometimes appears that way...also vision. The difference
is that you can at least SEE their cloudy eyes, but you can't see a change in their Jacobsen's organ. Another factor is that they just don't need as much
food as they get older...their metabolism slows down, their growth slows way down, so they don't have the food drive of a younger snake, and when you
combine that with some reduction of their senses, you have a "finicky" snake that won't always eat the way they used to, or as much.

Snakes teach us patience, that's for sure. I used to have an old Baird's rat snake that apparently had a stroke about 7 years before he passed away.
He was the sweetest snake (& had done public outreach in his younger days) but I had to help him eat after that, and until he passed away at age
27. With him, it wasn't his sense of smell but lack of control of his body. Right now I have an older corn snake (20) that acts similarly to your python
though, and yes, I've seen this in a couple others. Gotta remember that as pets, our snakes live much longer lives than they would in the wild: there,
they'd be preyed upon when they slow down, or they'd get an infection from a failed attempt to constrict prey.

Thanks for sharing experiences! I guess I will continue to feed her in her cage despite the mess...

The reason my profile says three (now four) posts is because the first time I tried to pose the question my session timed out. When I logged in again as prompted there was a glitch and my post dissapeared. I then wrote to admin in the hopes they could recover it. Waited a few days, no response. Wrote second message to admin asking if could recover and also why my profile (at time) showed 1 post. They responded that my original post was unrecoverable and that any messages to admin were included in post counts. That is why I had a count of three after my first forum post.

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Originally Posted by puddinck

Thanks for sharing experiences! I guess I will continue to feed her in her cage despite the mess...

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With my current old corn snake, he's close to 6' and "should" eat a large mouse, but most of the time he acts like it won't fit, lol....he'll grab it, hold it, then leave it,
even though he's hungry & eats a few days later, but usually something much smaller. It's also obvious that his vision is quite poor now. Once in a while he will eat
a large mouse, but his appetite has slowed way down. All this is normal for an aging snake. But they aren't all the same either & my late Baird's rat snake was very
unusual in that he wanted food but would wobble his head & neck all over trying to grab it...very uncoordinated. Once he got food in his mouth, I had to hold it with
my tongs & guide it well into his mouth & upper throat, otherwise he'd just drop it. From that point he could swallow it. I can't believe he lived as long as he did,
especially with that issue, but he had me to help him. As long as he seemed to want to live, I was right there to assist & I was very fond of him. Like I said though,
a wild snake would never last. Just like humans, not all snakes age the same way, and many never make it long enough to see these kinds of things.

Reminds me of a Far Side cartoon, ya gotta love Gary Larson! (he kept snakes too, btw)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/d3...bda92edd00.jpg

Well, I suppose there can be sensory degradation in all species as they age. I have a 25 year old bp that I haven't noticed anything like that in, but the snake definitely started feeding less frequently in her late teens. She only feeds 8-10 times a year for about the last decade. I had another her same age that died recently and the pattern was the same. So my experience is that they just don't need the same food intake as they age. I wouldn't be concerned.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

With my current old corn snake, he's close to 6' and "should" eat a large mouse, but most of the time he acts like it won't fit, lol....he'll grab it, hold it, then leave it,
even though he's hungry & eats a few days later, but usually something much smaller. .

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This is a good point I think... since they don't need as much food as they age, perhaps feed a smaller prey item, something easier for her to grasp and get down?

Tattoo fed on Monday so I waited until today to take some pics. Unfortunately after several attempts I am unable to upload them because the files are too large. I will resize and try again but I need a break!

I also apologize for the late "Thanks" to Bogertophis but I usually lurk around forums instead of joining... This is mostly new to me and I don't know how to navigate very well.

As mentioned above I am having issues with timing out of my session. First with posting and today with trying to upload photos. Is there a way to set preferences to stay logged in?

Thanks!

OK, see if these images work... I am not sure how to rotate the images so bear with me. I included a close-up of her eye to show how clear it still is. I am pretty sure her issues are scent related.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...h_1024x768.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...i_1024x768.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...e_1024x768.jpg

You know your snake better than we can, from afar & on a forum- so if you think her issue is scent-related, it probably is. When you think about how many
differences there are among other creatures, even humans, as far as our sensory abilities, it makes total sense to me that perhaps she is weaker in that area,
especially as she has aged. We weren't all dealt the same "hand" in life...there are individual differences throughout the years, & since snakes use their sense of
smell more than other senses, it only makes sense that a deficiency is noticeable & affects her appetite. But I know of no rodents that are super-smelly to help.

I was hoping that snakes were maybe immune to the indignities of the aging process... So sad! I hate to think that all of her meals moving forward will be cold and old but glad that she IS eating. She has been an awesome pet and I am grateful for all the trouble-free years she has given me. If her last few are a bit more high-maintenance then so be it.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Reminds me of a Far Side cartoon, ya gotta love Gary Larson! (he kept snakes too, btw)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/d3...bda92edd00.jpg

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OMG, that's hilarious! Saving that one....

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Originally Posted by hilabeans

OMG, that's hilarious! Saving that one....

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Yeah, Gary Larson had a wonderfully twisted way of portraying animals in his cartoons- :D (& quite a few with snakes, how rare is that!?)

Good luck with your older snake. I have a 25 year old, so I'm always very interested in these kind of threads. Seeing what the future holds. I haven't noticed the specific issues you have, but over the last year mine chooses to eat much less frequently. Used to be a medium f/t rat every 7 to 10 days, now it's a small f/t rat every 2 or 3 weeks. Eyesight and other senses appear to be normal.

Good luck to you and your snake.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

I am still floored by 28 years! I know the record is 47 or 48 but most don't live to half that from what I have found. My oldest is pushing 20.

Update! Tattoo is still alive and doing well. 31 years old and counting...

We have both adjusted to the new normal which involves feeding her in her cage with the mouse placed just so at the opening of her hide. Sometimes she finds it right away, somtimes it takes her all night, and sometimes I end up tossing it out to the ravens in the morning.

Last year she was offered either a large or jumbo adult mouse once a week and ended up eating only 22 of the 52 meals. She did lose some weight going from 2065 grams down to 1953 grams. A little scary but she remained well hydrated and somewhat active.

This year she has already eaten 9 out of the 12 weeks so hopefully she will gain some of it back. Unfortunately she also seems to have developed some very slight neurologic issues...

Every now and then I see her recoil and then make odd gnawing motions in the air. It's almost like she can't line her jaws up correctly. I have looked in her mouth to see if maybe there were any hairs or fibers wrapped around her teeth but haven't been able to find anything. Sometimes she accidentally bites her glottis which will bleed a little. Then the fit passes and she seems perfectly normal.

The nearest competent reptile veterinarian is about four hours away so not sure I want to put her through the stress of travel and examination. Especially when she is eating so well right now!

I have read a little about cold shock syndrome but not sure... She has definitely been temporarily exposed to cooler temperatures throughout our time together but this behavior is new. Any thoughts?

Here's a pic of her just hanging out.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...38_resized.jpg

I asked a friend to take a photo while I held her mouth open but they didn't quite capture what I wanted... I was really hoping for a full shot top and bottom that I could zoom in on to check for growths, wounds, infections, or foreign bodies. Didn't want to put Tattoo through it again so gave up. So frustrating! At least you can see the small pinprick wounds she gave herself.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...33_resized.jpg

Arthritis? I have no idea. Congrats on 31!

She looks wonderful & congratulations on her 31 years! :sweeet:

I've never known a snake to bite their own glottis, but I've seen a few that accidently folded their jaws (from an awkward feeding moment) & needed my help to unfold them, & in those cases they may well have bitten their glottis too, I just wasn't aware of it. But no infection or issues resulted from the weird incidents at least.

Not sure what might be causing this occasional behavior. I doubt that a vet could verify much either, especially since it's not likely to happen in front of them, but if it happens again, try to catch a video to show them (& us?). I suspect that snakes can also have strokes & such...so it might not have been about anything in her mouth at all. :confusd: I agree that these incidents sound "neurological" so I'm pretty sure there's nothing you can do to prevent them- just continue the good care you're already doing.

I do find that older snakes may have more trouble digesting, & the biggest challenge would be larger prey. I'd be inclined to not feed her jumbo mice & stick with regular adult mice- maybe adjust the frequency she's fed too. My 22 year old corn snake often skips meals now too- he's definitely thinner but nothing I can do about that. Time catches up with everything.

Thanks so much for quick responses!

I have tried several times to take videos but it happens so infrequently... I even set up a trail cam to record any movement overnight. Unfortunately the infrared reflected too strongly off of the glass enclosure! I then set it up at an oblique angle but did not catch anything of importance. I do have a very poor quality clip on my cell that I will try to figure out how to post (groan!!)

I am already offering a mouse once a week but I am open to offering more frequent meals. I realize the jumbos are fatty but it feels so much more reassuring when she eats a bigger item! I am worried that if she chooses to only eat 22 meals a year large mice won't cut it?

Sometimes the larges I am sent aren't very large...

Layne Labs does have an option now to choose the weight of certain prey items (for a fee). Is this worth pursuing? What weight range would be recommended?

Wow that's an old girl. You are doing right by her.

I had an old snake who passed away recently. I have noticed a few minor changes as he got older, from strike/coil his food to just eating it as you hand it to him. I never had that problem that you described.

If your snake is showing signs of not eating or other symptoms including lumps and bumps around the jaw area, something may be brewing in there and an x-ray will be needed to confirm what's going on. If you want to be extra cautious and take her in to the vet now, that's fine too. Understand that they might have to put her under just so to take the x-ray if she won't cooperate at the vet, and that in itself can be risky due to her age. And let's say they did find something, due to the location, there may be little you can do and again, putting her under may not be feasible. The best treatment I think would be antibiotics to stave off any potential infection from the little cut she made. Again you can wait and see or treat it preemptively.

There is a free vet online chat in Chewy website. I don't know how it works but it's something. Also, there is a Facebook group where you can post questions to vets. Please note that only veterinarians are allowed to respond and comment on the posts. You are not allowed to bump or repost if they didn't get to your questions at first try. These veterinarians volunteer their time to help people with non-emergency situations.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3374...048/?ref=share

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

...There is a free vet online chat in Chewy website. I don't know how it works but it's something...

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Here's a link to that, but I don't know how much help they'd be with reptile medicine? If anyone tries it to find out, please let us all know? :snake:
Note that you do need an account with Chewy to use this:

https://www.chewy.com/app/content/connect-with-a-vet

Wow I am amazed you have had that animal for that long congrats! I wouldn't seperate her to feed her. I think its best to feed them in their regular enclosure. Do you keep the live mouse/mice in the same room for a long period of time before feeding? I know that moving the live prey to another room might help. Think about this when you first smell a new food that is in the room it smells great but when you have it in the room for a long period of time the smell goes away. I keep my rodents in the basement far away from my room upstairs. This way I can take the rodent to the room only when they are to be fed so the new smell is new. Does that make sense?

Congratulations on your long lived BP. She’s beautiful! That’s a testament of the good care she’s obviously received. For such a mature snake she seems to be doing very well. I think you could actually cut back on her feedings. My pythons only eat every 2-4 weeks after their 3rd year, and even less during the winter months. Does she eat rats or do you only give her mice? I don’t feed any of my snakes outside their enclosures. I don’t see any upside to it.

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Originally Posted by JacksReptiles

Wow I am amazed you have had that animal for that long congrats! I wouldn't seperate her to feed her. I think its best to feed them in their regular enclosure. Do you keep the live mouse/mice in the same room for a long period of time before feeding? I know that moving the live prey to another room might help. Think about this when you first smell a new food that is in the room it smells great but when you have it in the room for a long period of time the smell goes away. I keep my rodents in the basement far away from my room upstairs. This way I can take the rodent to the room only when they are to be fed so the new smell is new. Does that make sense?

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Totally makes sense but I don't raise my own feeders. I used to feed live or freshly killed but switched over to f/t years ago. I am really happy with it so far.

When I bought my snake all those years ago it seemed the prevailing consensus was to feed in a separate container. Supposedly to prevent conditioning the snake to bite when the enclosure was opened. I wasn't so worried about that aspect since I handled my snake quite a bit but I did like that it kept the mess confined to an easily cleaned bucket.

Now that she is older and seems to have lost one or more of her senses I AM feeding her in her enclosure where she is more comfortable.

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Originally Posted by puddinck

When I bought my snake all those years ago it seemed the prevailing consensus was to feed in a separate container. Supposedly to prevent conditioning the snake to bite when the enclosure was opened. I wasn't so worried about that aspect since I handled my snake quite a bit but I did like that it kept the mess confined to an easily cleaned bucket.

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When I got my first ball python in 2008 this was the advice pet stores gave out too. Makes you wonder how many newer keepers back in the day had feeding issues because the shops were telling them to do this. Crazy to see how far the hobby has come in just 13 years!

Anyway, just wanted to say congrats on 31 years!

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Congratulations on your long lived BP. She’s beautiful! That’s a testament of the good care she’s obviously received. For such a mature snake she seems to be doing very well. I think you could actually cut back on her feedings. My pythons only eat every 2-4 weeks after their 3rd year, and even less during the winter months. Does she eat rats or do you only give her mice? I don’t feed any of my snakes outside their enclosures. I don’t see any upside to it.

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In years past I fed her in a separate enclosure mostly for cleanliness purposes. I'd feed her a mouse or mice, give her a quick rinse, thoroughly dry her off, and then leave her alone for a day or two. No mouse blood, mouse urine, or mouse feces on her or in her enclosure.

Now that she doesn't seem to be able to pinpoint her prey well enough to strike I feed her in her enclosure. I just leave the mouse right in front of the doorway of her hide and hope she eats it instead of using it for a headrest.

It is her choice to eat or not eat. I am worried that if I only offer her prey every other week or once a month that I may miss out on periods where she feels well enough to eat. I don't know that she feels bad but maybe she is experiencing some internal issues? Bloodwork would be great but as I mentioned earlier it is very difficult to find a true herp vet in my area. I would hate for some small animal practice to jab her 20 times trying to find a vein!

I tried to switch over to rats years ago without success but our local feed store had limited sizes and availability. Maybe I gave up too soon? Now that I am purchasing f/t I could easily try again. Fuzzy or pup size? She no longer seems to be using heat or smell to find her prey only touch (sight?) so might be interesting experiment...

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Originally Posted by puddinck

In years past I fed her in a separate enclosure mostly for cleanliness purposes. I'd feed her a mouse or mice, give her a quick rinse, thoroughly dry her off, and then leave her alone for a day or two. No mouse blood, mouse urine, or mouse feces on her or in her enclosure.

Now that she doesn't seem to be able to pinpoint her prey well enough to strike I feed her in her enclosure. I just leave the mouse right in front of the doorway of her hide and hope she eats it instead of using it for a headrest.

It is her choice to eat or not eat. I am worried that if I only offer her prey every other week or once a month that I may miss out on periods where she feels well enough to eat. I don't know that she feels bad but maybe she is experiencing some internal issues? Bloodwork would be great but as I mentioned earlier it is very difficult to find a true herp vet in my area. I would hate for some small animal practice to jab her 20 times trying to find a vein!

I tried to switch over to rats years ago without success but our local feed store had limited sizes and availability. Maybe I gave up too soon? Now that I am purchasing f/t I could easily try again. Fuzzy or pup size? She no longer seems to be using heat or smell to find her prey only touch (sight?) so might be interesting experiment...

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Clean bloodwork helps but won't give you a full picture. My snake had clean bloodwork even though he had a tumor that was slowly killing him. He also ate until his last day. In my experience, all of my reptiles that were gravely ill ate until they passed so appetite is not always a sign to determine how your snake feels. It does help when it's obvious, meaning it had gotten so sick it can no longer accept food. Reptile medicine is complicated.

Based on her age, just keep an eye on her. I would recommend bloodwork if it's a senior dog or cat, or there are signs that there is something wrong with her kidneys, ie she is peeing a lot more than usual. Kidney failure is common in old animals, it's just nature. I would physically inspect her from head to tail every other week to feel for anything weird. Watch her mouth closely to make sure there is no sign of infection. A big red flag would be she is eating consistently (proper sized feeder) and loses weight (even more alarming if she loses weight drastically in a short period of time). That means something else is robbing her of nutrients, potentially cancer (most likely) or parasites.

She is doing really good now so enjoy whatever time you can have with her.

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Originally Posted by puddinck

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I tried to switch over to rats years ago without success but our local feed store had limited sizes and availability. Maybe I gave up too soon? Now that I am purchasing f/t I could easily try again. Fuzzy or pup size? She no longer seems to be using heat or smell to find her prey only touch (sight?) so might be interesting experiment...

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Just my opinion but with an elderly snake, the last thing you want to do is start throwing them curve balls..."If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

IF she's a willing eater, I'd sooner give her 2 regular adult mice than one large old breeder mouse, just so you can feel she had a "good" meal. But give them one right after the other, that's important so they don't mess up her digestion & cause a regurge! That's the last thing you want to do. The younger adult mice are higher % protein, lower % fat, more easily digested.

If you start shoving rats at a snake this old that's never eaten them, she might go off feed entirely. You don't know how she'll react, but fear of unknown prey & resulting stress is not unheard of.

Thanks so much! I will place my order tonight... No experimenting. Medium adults for Pan and large adults for Tattoo.

I have yet to have a reptile regurgitate on me and I'm not anxious to experience it!

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Originally Posted by puddinck

Thanks so much! I will place my order tonight... No experimenting. Medium adults for Pan and large adults for Tattoo.

I have yet to have a reptile regurgitate on me and I'm not anxious to experience it!

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Contrary to what some will tell you, mice & rats are pretty much equal in nutrition for snakes; the big difference has more to do with convenience, & some snakes (esp. BPs) will refuse to eat more than one item per meal, so that's why people like to up-size to rats, so that rodent size is never an issue- "one & done". ;)

What can make a snake regurgitate is feeding them one item, then waiting an hour or more* before adding another one to the mix, after the digestion of the first item is well along. *The risk of a regurgitation increases the longer the interval is between prey items. It's just a matter of them using their existing digestive enzymes, which are then moved along their digestive tract with that first item, & not having had enough time to replenish the enzymes needed to digest the next item separately. So if you're feeding 2 items, do it immediately- best within an hour of each other, & your snake should be fine.

I'm not suggesting that feeding 2 items per meal is a good thing for any & all snakes: we're not talking about overfeeding a typical snake here, but rather, this is about knowing when & how to make an exception to the "rule" of feeding one item at a time, & of knowing what your individual snake might need instead.