Champagne x Ghost x Spider

I cannot find pictures of this anywhere.

Checked morph market.
Checked world of bp morph list.
Google searched.

Has this been done?

I've been gone awhile so not sure if there are other resources I am missing.

I am debating on getting a mimosa for my honeybee...

Champagne x Spider is lethal, I believe

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Originally Posted by Slicercrush

Champagne x Spider is lethal, I believe

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You are correct.

Very sad to hear. That would explain why I haven't seen it... back to the drawing board I guess.

The spider gene needs to be mapped out so we can see what all is going on. I still feel as though it is a co-dom and the super is lethal. :(

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

Very sad to hear. That would explain why I haven't seen it... back to the drawing board I guess.

The spider gene needs to be mapped out so we can see what all is going on. I still feel as though it is a co-dom and the super is lethal. :(

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If you're looking for a good reference for lethal combos/gene issues, this is a good one: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

I still feel as though it is a co-dom and the super is lethal. :(

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There are a number of us who have been saying this for years... And for years we have been roundly ignored/lambasted.

OWAL did a decent write up summarizing the thoughts of us a couple years ago: http://www.owalreptiles.com/superspider.php

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Originally Posted by asplundii

There are a number of us who have been saying this for years... And for years we have been roundly ignored/lambasted.

OWAL did a decent write up summarizing the thoughts of us a couple years ago: http://www.owalreptiles.com/superspider.php

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I just read that yesterday. Pretty good points, but like you said people have been saying it for years. Its sad that this gene affects the neurological side of the animal, because it is a beautiful display and the super, from the few I have seen that died in egg, were all pretty and silver too.

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

Very sad to hear. That would explain why I haven't seen it... back to the drawing board I guess.

The spider gene needs to be mapped out so we can see what all is going on. I still feel as though it is a co-dom and the super is lethal. :(

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I feel the same.

Wouldn’t spider HAVE to be a co-dominant trait? Since it was proven allelic to blackhead? Would that be possible if the spider gene is dominant?

edit: the jaguar gene in carpet pythons is considered to be analogous to the spider gene in ball pythons, if I’m not mistaken, with the super being a leucistic all white snake. Very similar to the supposed stillborn super spiders. This is also a lethal gene combo in carpets.

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Originally Posted by Trisnake

edit: the jaguar gene in carpet pythons is considered to be analogous to the spider gene in ball pythons, if I’m not mistaken, with the super being a leucistic all white snake. Very similar to the supposed stillborn super spiders. This is also a lethal gene combo in carpets.

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Nick Mutton wrote up a nice piece for HerpNation (back in 2016, when it was still functional) saying exactly this. It has been cloned here, minus pics: http://www.iherp.com/Public/Blog/Detail.aspx?uid=177785

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Originally Posted by Trisnake

I feel the same.

Wouldn’t spider HAVE to be a co-dominant trait? Since it was proven allelic to blackhead? Would that be possible if the spider gene is dominant?

edit: the jaguar gene in carpet pythons is considered to be analogous to the spider gene in ball pythons, if I’m not mistaken, with the super being a leucistic all white snake. Very similar to the supposed stillborn super spiders. This is also a lethal gene combo in carpets.

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The way we refer to co-dom, dom and such is just how the single mutant gene looks in heterozygous and homozygous forms. Other genes have no baring on it. It being allelic proves that there is zero reason for the super spider not to exist, as the locus doesn't have any issues.
If you can make super blackheads, you can make super spiders, and ignoring all other evidence, we can still ask what's the logical conclusion based of this alone. It's lethal.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

The way we refer to co-dom, dom and such is just how the single mutant gene looks in heterozygous and homozygous forms. Other genes have no baring on it. It being allelic proves that there is zero reason for the super spider not to exist, as the locus doesn't have any issues.
If you can make super blackheads, you can make super spiders, and ignoring all other evidence, we can still ask what's the logical conclusion based of this alone. It's lethal.

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^^^ This

Along with the fact that most neuro issue morphs (such as woma, for example) when bred together can have really terrible side effects, it really isn't surprising. Look at pearls (Woma x Woma) which is lethal as well, though I do remember seeing something along the lines of one living, atleast for a little while, using Hidden Gene Womas bred by NERD, but I would consider that a completely different case.

I just picked up a Super Pastel HGW, so now I have 2 of the "wobble" gene snakes, staying away from breeding them together, but going to try for Pastel Soul Suckers.

I wish we had more information on the genome of ball pythons, because this would expand our understanding of the morphs/mutations we encounter to see where everyone lies and to see which are actually co-dom, dom, or recessive. In my opinion, a recessive with het markers is more co-dom than recessive if they are proven markers that are reproducible.

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

I just picked up a Super Pastel HGW, so now I have 2 of the "wobble" gene snakes, staying away from breeding them together, but going to try for Pastel Soul Suckers.

I wish we had more information on the genome of ball pythons, because this would expand our understanding of the morphs/mutations we encounter to see where everyone lies and to see which are actually co-dom, dom, or recessive. In my opinion, a recessive with het markers is more co-dom than recessive if they are proven markers that are reproducible.

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Would be interesting, in the least, to see what would happen with the pair. I think WorldOfBallPythons.com has some HGW x Spider snakes already listed, so my guess is that it at least isn't considered 100% lethal, though I haven't dived on the subject too much. I would guess that the Wobble would probably escalate quite a bit in that scenario, though, but I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Slicercrush

Would be interesting, in the least, to see what would happen with the pair. I think WorldOfBallPythons.com has some HGW x Spider snakes already listed, so my guess is that it at least isn't considered 100% lethal, though I haven't dived on the subject too much. I would guess that the Wobble would probably escalate quite a bit in that scenario, though, but I could be wrong.

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Not planning on breeding them together to avoid the risk, but I too have seen HGWxSpider combos listed there, not many but a few. Plus both of those pattern reductions don't necessarily amplify each other.

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Originally Posted by Trisnake

I feel the same.

Wouldn’t spider HAVE to be a co-dominant trait? Since it was proven allelic to blackhead? Would that be possible if the spider gene is dominant?

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I am with OWAL.

The spider gene is codominant to the corresponding normal gene. That would be fine if the spider locus had only those two alleles. Things get much more complicated when a locus has three or more alleles, as seems the case with the spider locus.

Dominant/codominant/recessive describes the relationship between two alleles. Repeat, two alleles. If only one allele is specified, then the assumption is that the second allele is the normal allele. Changing one of the genes can change the relationship. A gene can be dominant to one allele, codominant to a second, and recessive to a third.

Spider could be dominant, codominant, or recessive to another allele. If spider was dominant to another allele, the heterozygous form would die. Like spider/champagne. It has already been established that the spider gene is codominant to the normal gene. Or spider could be recessive to one of its alleles. I don't know enough about those other alleles to identify a likely candidate. But there are plenty of recessive lethal genes known in various species.