Personal Opinions on Spiders

Of course, now that I have decided to get a rack from CSerpants, I now seem to find myself looking at Morph Market for ideas on how to fill the second space in the rack. I have plenty of ideas, but I also seem to be starting to get a nice eye for spider morphs, especially different "Bees". Knowing that they have neurological issues, though, i'm really having a debate in my head whether or not I would want to support that. I know many of them don't have the wobble too terribly bad, and I wouldnt mind picking up a snake with neuro issues, but its knowing that they are deliberately bred with people knowing they could possibly suffer that bothers me. What is your guy's opinion on this? I know this can be a heated issue in the community, but I was curious what the majority may be.

As someone who owns a snake with a gene that can have similar neurological issues (Woma) I think you shouldn't automatically rule them out, it's very variable. My Woma doesn't really have much issue most of the time, and the many of them have a wobble on the more subtle side. If you like them, I don't think you should let that deter you from getting one.

As a general rule the issues surrounding spider, woma, champagne exc. Do not affect the day to day lives of the snake. I have several wobble genes including one spider that is a bad wobbler. He still eats breeds and sheds just like any other snake in my rack. So I can only say don't go by the gene go by the animal. And you may find you like a beautiful bee. [emoji3]

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

My Spiders that actively wobble when excited or during feeding seem to suffer no ill effects other than the occasional weak/missed strikes, 99.5% of the time they are asymptomatic.

Any Spider morph I produce with passive wobble gets culled immediately regardless of value/genetics. I'm not for weakening bloodlines or propagating defective pets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StillBP

As a general rule the issues surrounding spider, woma, champagne exc. Do not affect the day to day lives of the snake. I have several wobble genes including one spider that is a bad wobbler. He still eats breeds and sheds just like any other snake in my rack. So I can only say don't go by the gene go by the animal. And you may find you like a beautiful bee. [emoji3]

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

---

Wasn't ruling them out in the slightest, just curious about what others thought! I always think I have the perfect gene i want then *bam* i find another. Right now its between some sort of bee, pied, banana...so many...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

too many legs, burn them with fire.

except jumping spiders. I like jumping spiders.

jumping spider


Edit: ahhh spider morph. got ya. lol I prefer the banana and enchis and bees.

I don't have a spider but I'm well aware of the wobbling gene some may have. But that would have not stopped me if I wanted one badly. It is similar to the idea of should one continue to support the breeding of certain dog breeds, like the English bulldog? They can barely breathe, they can't give birth naturally and have other genetic issues.

To answer your question, your support of whatever it is in demand, like the English bulldog, will make not matter in the grand scheme of things. If you don't buy one, someone else will. If you do get one, you are giving a good home to that pet. Which do you prefer? Some people should not breed but they will continue. So what you can do about it is to pick a reputable breeder who tries not to breed the wobble gene if it is such a concern to you.

I had this same type of question about a year ago when picking my first bp. We had a good discussion about it, so ill share the thread in case you'd like to see :)
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=251010

Ultimately its what you feel ok with. My lil spider combo has wobble only when she eats and get excited. She is my best eater and switched from live mice to f/t rat without hesitation. Great personality and temperment too!

If you're having a hard time deciding on a morph/snake , which one do you keep looking at and going back to? Thats how i pick now because i missed out on a stellar calico banana one time. Also be sure to look at adults with the same morph/s so you have an idea how it will look when grown, thats pretty important too.

And heres a pic of my spider super mystic because well. Why not haha.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e77ca41a0b.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roux

I had this same type of question about a year ago when picking my first bp. We had a good discussion about it, so ill share the thread in case you'd like to see :)
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=251010

Ultimately its what you feel ok with. My lil spider combo has wobble only when she eats and get excited. She is my best eater and switched from live mice to f/t rat without hesitation. Great personality and temperment too!

If you're having a hard time deciding on a morph/snake , which one do you keep looking at and going back to? Thats how i pick now because i missed out on a stellar calico banana one time. Also be sure to look at adults with the same morph/s so you have an idea how it will look when grown, thats pretty important too.

And heres a pic of my spider super mystic because well. Why not haha.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e77ca41a0b.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

---

Gorgeous snakes, ill give it a look over! Im currently trying to see which one stands out the most for me in my pricepoint of $200-350 (without shipping). Ill see one animal, really enjoy it, keep scrolling, find another, "oo, shiny!"

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Just found a Banana Spider...those are quite pretty. Right now Im sure I want to get a banana, spider, or pied morph, probably more than 1 gene, though I may go for a blue eyed lucy because white snakes are just gorgeous.

I personally wouldn't buy a spider. But, I have absolutely zero issue with anybody who does, or anybody who produces them. I think many spiders are gorgeous, but since there are sooooooo many morphs to choose from, I would personally choose to go another direction. But that's just me.

Also, IF I ever add another BP (sooooo many species I want to add first) I would most likely go BEL, unless by that point Highways or Freeways have plummeted into my price range.

Anyway, I have no issue with people keeping or working with the spider gene, or others known for Neuro issues, but they're not for me with so many other options out there. But, if you find one ypu love, go for it!

Love spiders, and have no issues about breeding or keeping them, and plan on doing that myself in a few years. Most spiders I've seen and the spider combo I own have no wobble or a very minor one, so it doesn't really seem to effect them all that much.

I once saw a video of a Spider upside down writhing on the floor unable to right itself and turn over. Perhaps that was an extreme case and others are not as bad - as previous comments have said. But I found that particular case to be unethical. A cool paint job isn't worth causing an animal to suffer imo.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I have multiple spider combos and they range from one with no noticeable wobble to one with full on corkscrewing when excited for food, I have to watch my hands because she misses so badly lol. With that said, the one with the worst wobble is still my favorite. It does not seem to bother her in any way. I think people make way to big of a deal about it and it’s usually people that have never even owned one. If I didn’t know what to look for, I wouldn’t even of noticed anything different about all of mine but the one that corkscrews. It’s just not that noticeable in most of them. If you really like the look, you should get one. They are my best feeders and super chill for handling. My kids even love them the best.

I have no issue, but wouldn't get one myself... Some people seriously overreact and over-exaggerate the genetic issue in a spider.

Nobody wants to hear more dog breed comparisons, but if someone is so revved up about slamming spider breeders and buyers, why aren't they treating the majority of brachycephalic dog breeders and owners the same way? Do they scream whenever they see a french bulldog or pug in public and call the owner unethical for buying one? English bulldogs can't catch a ball without heaving for air, because their air passages are born constricted- some lines worse and some better. 60% of English bulldogs are dysplastic and either suffer pain for the majority of their lives or are put down.

Really, people need to see the big picture. Either decide to be loud about the healthy genetic breeding and improvement of all other suffering pet breeds, or don't scream your pants off about spider ball pythons and their owners.

(not talking about the OP, just the topic in general!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

I have no issue, but wouldn't get one myself... Some people seriously overreact and over-exaggerate the genetic issue in a spider.

Nobody wants to hear more dog breed comparisons, but if someone is so revved up about slamming spider breeders and buyers, why aren't they treating the majority of brachycephalic dog breeders and owners the same way? Do they scream whenever they see a french bulldog or pug in public and call the owner unethical for buying one? English bulldogs can't catch a ball without heaving for air, because their air passages are born constricted- some lines worse and some better. 60% of English bulldogs are dysplastic and either suffer pain for the majority of their lives or are put down.

Really, people need to see the big picture. Either decide to be loud about the healthy genetic breeding and improvement of all other suffering pet breeds, or don't scream your pants off about spider ball pythons and their owners.

(not talking about the OP, just the topic in general!)

---

I agree, it's true that certain dog breeds have physical characteristics that result in Ill health and the breeding of those animals is also unethical.

However, in my opinion those characteristics are not as debilitating as a genetic neurological disorder causing poor coordination and poor motor control.

There is a common perception in society that reptiles are worth less than mammalian pets. If a dog breed carried a genetic neurological disorder that caused poor balance and poor motor control there would be uproar amongst the general population. I believe society should see reptiles on par with mammallian pets and consider the propagation of debilitating genetic disorders as equally bad for all of them.

The problem though arises in how far that should go. What should be considered a debilitating condition and what should be considered acceptable? It comes down to personal opinion. Personally I have an albino snake which some people may believe is a debilitating condition due to light sensitivity etc.

I recently saw a video about a guy breeding ball pythons with no heat pits. To me that is unethical because the animal is in effect disabled and unable to function properly. I see the Spider gene in the same light.

But I'm just one guy and this is my opinion.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

As cool as they look I also could not purchase one knowing that the gene is connected with a defect. Yes, they do fine in captivity, but the wobble is enough of a problem that it would not be viable in the wild - survival of the fittest - we can tease the gene out of them in controlled breeding, but in nature it would never pass on mostly due to hunting and escape abilities.

Lots of morphs would be disadvantaged due to lack of camouflage from our selective breeding, but leucism / melanistic creatures survive just fine naturally, as can strangely patterned animals. That does not effect mobility issues.

To be fair I also think brachycephalic dogs and cats (bulldogs, pugs, persian cats, etc) should not be bred nor would I own one. I also shy away from most "purebreds" for that reason in mammals at least. Golden Retrievers get cancer, boxers have heart issues, all doodles have a high chance for allergies... any highly modified genetic creature is bound to have problems when they have been tampered with to achieve a standard.

I'll take my mutts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valyrian

I agree, it's true that certain dog breeds have physical characteristics that result in Ill health and the breeding of those animals is also unethical.

However, in my opinion those characteristics are not as debilitating as a genetic neurological disorder causing poor coordination and poor motor control.

There is a common perception in society that reptiles are worth less than mammalian pets. If a dog breed carried a genetic neurological disorder that caused poor balance and poor motor control there would be uproar amongst the general population. I believe society should see reptiles on par with mammallian pets and consider the propagation of debilitating genetic disorders as equally bad for all of them.

The problem though arises in how far that should go. What should be considered a debilitating condition and what should be considered acceptable? It comes down to personal opinion. Personally I have an albino snake which some people may believe is a debilitating condition due to light sensitivity etc.

I recently saw a video about a guy breeding ball pythons with no heat pits. To me that is unethical because the animal is in effect disabled and unable to function properly. I see the Spider gene in the same light.

But I'm just one guy and this is my opinion.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

---

i've never heard of anyone breeding BPs without heat pits, could you share the video? I always heard things like "BP breeders intentionally breed snakes without eyes" but I could never find anyone doing anything of the sort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valyrian

However, in my opinion those characteristics are not as debilitating as a genetic neurological disorder causing poor coordination and poor motor control.
What should be considered a debilitating condition and what should be considered acceptable? It comes down to personal opinion.

---

Thanks for your thoughts! Yeah, this is basically it, personal opinion. I personally don't see lack of motor control but with no pain to be necessarily more unethical than breeding for dogs who literally can't breathe enough to perform regular activities of its species, or when a large percentage suffer acute pain throughout their lives from physical injuries/displasia.

Both are technically debilitating to the animal in order to function in everyday life. (And I personally see the dog's issues as worse)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crowfingers

As cool as they look I also could not purchase one knowing that the gene is connected with a defect. Yes, they do fine in captivity, but the wobble is enough of a problem that it would not be viable in the wild - survival of the fittest - we can tease the gene out of them in controlled breeding, but in nature it would never pass on mostly due to hunting and escape abilities.

Lots of morphs would be disadvantaged due to lack of camouflage from our selective breeding, but leucism / melanistic creatures survive just fine naturally, as can strangely patterned animals. That does not effect mobility issues.

To be fair I also think brachycephalic dogs and cats (bulldogs, pugs, persian cats, etc) should not be bred nor would I own one. I also shy away from most "purebreds" for that reason in mammals at least. Golden Retrievers get cancer, boxers have heart issues, all doodles have a high chance for allergies... any highly modified genetic creature is bound to have problems when they have been tampered with to achieve a standard.

I'll take my mutts

---

Mutts live longer because of that too

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valyrian

Mutts live longer because of that too

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

---

I apologize I brought up the dog thing haha

But this is a myth- mutts are just a random draw, like buying raffle tickets. It totally depends on the individual unknown genetics of the mutt, just like it depends on the individual genetics of the purebred. Many purebreds that come from long lines of health tested and proven dogs are setting their chances high of producing more healthy dogs. While mutts are never bred ethically/are randomly bred/some stray dogs had puppies on the street, so really are luck of the draw and mostly have lower chances of being healthy than well-bred purebreds.

There are well bred and poorly bred purebreds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MD_Pythons

i've never heard of anyone breeding BPs without heat pits, could you share the video? I always heard things like "BP breeders intentionally breed snakes without eyes" but I could never find anyone doing anything of the sort.

---

https://youtu.be/E_oUioVhVEo

The part with the missing heat pits is around 02:50

Edit: I think that image is actually the snake with no heat pits.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valyrian

https://youtu.be/E_oUioVhVEo

The part with the missing heat pits is around 02:50

Edit: I think that image is actually the snake with no heat pits.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

---

Strange...I definetly wouldnt be buying ine without heat pits, thats for sure. Id also probably avoid scaleless, but we'll see if that opinion holds if they drop down from $30,000.

As for woth spiders...it is very true that they wouldnt live in the wild, and is technically unethical. Personally, i believe i will continue looking, and possibly purchase, a spider morph, not just for looks but also now knowing the risks and condition of the snakes with it.

If anyone wants to see the main reason why many people dont like it, and what the "against" side is talking about with a video, this is a good one: https://youtu.be/uflWWZhmoYM

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slicercrush

Strange...I definetly wouldnt be buying ine without heat pits, thats for sure. Id also probably avoid scaleless, but we'll see if that opinion holds if they drop down from $30,000.

As for woth spiders...it is very true that they wouldnt live in the wild, and is technically unethical. Personally, i believe i will continue looking, and possibly purchase, a spider morph, not just for looks but also now knowing the risks and condition of the snakes with it.

If anyone wants to see the main reason why many people dont like it, and what the "against" side is talking about with a video, this is a good one: https://youtu.be/uflWWZhmoYM

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

---

I recently watched that same video.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

While I like the looks of a few spider combos, spider is currently the only morph that I exclude through filtering in my MorphMarket browsing. Not in any way knocking those who purchase or breed them, I just can't justify the potential risk.

I don't have much of a problem with spiders, as I've seen enough examples of spiders thriving in the hands of people I really respect to have dropped most of my issues with them. It's not an entirely negative trait either- Most spiders seem to have a real zest for food, which is definitely a big perk in my opinion.

Ultimately, I think it's up to the person purchasing one to decide whether or not a spider, or any other wobble morph, is a good fit for them. Dynasty had a champagne ringer that I looooved, but I felt that it would not be a good first snake for me. I wanted to get used to normal ball behavior and quirks, and get some of my anxiety out of the way, before going down that path.

That said, I do have an interest in seeing if the wobble can eventually be bred out of such morphs. One of the tentative breeding projects I've contemplated includes working with black head X champagne combos, since black head seems to take the wobble out of spiders, and how such a cross might effect their appearance and joy for food.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slicercrush

As for woth spiders...it is very true that they wouldnt live in the wild, and is technically unethical.

---

The problem here is it did. The original spider came in as a wild caught out of Africa

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StillBP

The problem here is it did. The original spider came in as a wild caught out of Africa

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

---

Really? Thats actually really interesting, im gonna need to look it up. Thanks for the info!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

You guys that won’t get a spider because you think they have some terrible defect are missing out on a great morph for no good reason. Most of you have probably never owned one so your basing your decision on some video of one of the worst cases. So far I’ve had 9 spiders and out of all of them only one did something noticeable and that’s twisting her head oddly when she smells food and then striking wildly. That’s it, the rest you’d never know had any neurological issues. The one that does, it’s noticeable but it doesn’t negatively affect her life in any way. You guys that are acting like spiders are suffering have obviously never owned one. The crazy video you see of a spider doing crazy corkscrewing and unable to eat is just like any other birth defect. It happens and those animals need to be euthanized just like any other birth defect that will affect an animals well being. Most spiders are nothing like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

I apologize I brought up the dog thing haha
But this is a myth- mutts are just a random draw, like buying raffle tickets. It totally depends on the individual unknown genetics of the mutt, just like it depends on the individual genetics of the purebred. Many purebreds that come from long lines of health tested and proven dogs are setting their chances high of producing more healthy dogs. While mutts are never bred ethically/are randomly bred/some stray dogs had puppies on the street, so really are luck of the draw and mostly have lower chances of being healthy than well-bred purebreds. There are well bred and poorly bred purebreds.

---

Not to be a pain, but I have to disagree. I see dozens of dogs a day, the purebreds and designer breeds have more chronic issues - as an example it is 100% known fact that boxers as a breed have a higher chance of dilated cardiomyopathy than random mixes (dobermans and Irish wolfhounds too). A golden-doodle is more likely to have allergies than a jack russle/poodle/beagle/lab mix. All toy breeds have much higher chances of dental issues - because they have been bred to be small - genetically as canines they are trying to fit the same number of teeth into a skull that nature never intended. Therefore the more breeds you throw into a genetic make up the less likely genetic issues are to be expressed - it's called hybrid vigor.

I do agree that mixes can have the issues for their parent breeds - which is why if you have a "white-footed" mutt that develops cancer, you should have it genetic tested for the MDR1 gene to ensure it can tolerate certain chemo-therapies and other drugs. The MDR1 issue stems from collies and other herding breeds. I have met and treated very sick mutts too, it's just not as common for the chronic issues that I see in other breeds.

Again: no disrespect, but I have this talk with clients on an almost weekly basis - hybrid vigor will win out over line-genetics more often than not

Also just want to add that I don't think that owning spiders is cruel or that they are suffering. I don't judge anyone for breeding and or having them. I think we can all agree that any individual snake that has any defect that causes significant stress or inability to function normally (ie feed itself, hold it's head up, move to thermoregulate) then that individual snake should be euthanized independent of its morph.

Genetics is a hot topic in all animal hobbies but we are all in this for the care and enjoyment of our pets, and as long as they are healthy that's what really counts. No one should be judged for choosing what morphs they want to have and work with

My female Albino Spider, Shayna, is both beautiful, calm and docile, and shows virtually no ill effects from the Spider Gene.

I don't really notice a wobble, or any neurological issues, frankly. I am sure if it's the albino gene that cuts through most of that, but she's 6 years old now, and is and has been doing great. Aside from her winter fasts, which are not isolated to Spider Genes :rolleye2::), she is an awesome snake.

I love my spiders.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/2vc7sc3.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/2bz50w.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/fx49yt.jpg

And I have to say, out of this clutch of five babies, the three with the spider gene were the healthiest. They were bigger on average than my two non-spider babies, they hatched out quicker, and they were the first to shed and start eating. No problems whatsoever getting them started. If you look around you'll start to notice that most of the anti-spider crowd have either never owned one, or don't have much experience with them. Meanwhile, most breeders who have knowledge and experience with these gorgeous snakes say they are healthy. Who you believe is up to you.

A few things I can tell you about spiders:

1. The wobble is variable. Not only does it differ from spider to spider, but it also differes from one moment to another. Spiders wobble when excited or under stress, but they move around normally most of the time. If you could see my spiders moving around their tubs, or slithering across my room while they're calm, you wouldn't notice any difference between the way they move and any other BP.
2. The wobble isn't inherently debilitating. If it were, these animals would not thrive as they do. People pooh-pooh it when breeders say that spiders eat, shed, poop, and breed just as well as other snakes, but all of these things are signs of health in a ball python. As we all know, BPs will skip meals for seemingly no reason. An that was suffering would not do as well as most spiders.
3. Both the severity of the wobble and the number of severe cases of wobble are greatly exaggerated. One example is when people compare them to pugs, or other dogs with deformities that cause them pain and health issues. It's not an accurite comparison. Spiders don't have a skull deformity or difficulty breathing. It would be more accurate to compare them to a dog that walks around normally most of the time, but jumps so high that it falls over when excited. I'm sure plenty of toy dogs do that, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say people shouldn't breed them because of it.
4. Spiders have good temperament. At least all the ones I've worked with have. I've never had a defensive or nippy spider. At worst, some have been a little flighty when stressed, but they're typically a very friendly and easy-going snake.
5. Spiders have great appetite! Mine typically do not turn down a meal unless they're in shed, breeding, or getting ready to lay eggs. None of them have been particularly picky either. Always great to have a snake that will eat the other snakes' leftovers.
6. They're just plain gorgeous! I have to admit I haven't always been a big fan of black and yellow, but with all the great combos out there you don't have to be. Throw them into coral glow, hypo, or some other color mutation to add some amazing pattern. You want a white snake? White pieds are as white as you can get and some spider pieds have no pattern at all. Look up "white wedding" ball pythons.

Now, all of that said I respect that some people don't like spiders. You're entitled to your own opinions and feelings. If you don't want them in your collection that's perfectly fine by me. I also want to thank everyone in this thread thus far for not going the "breeders are all greedy and care nothing for the health of their snakes" route. It's great to speak with a group of people mature enough to state their reservations without attacking people who don't agree with them. I think y'all are missing out on a great morph, but thanks for being awesome about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the_rotten1

I love my spiders.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/2vc7sc3.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/2bz50w.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/fx49yt.jpg

And I have to say, out of this clutch of five babies, the three with the spider gene were the healthiest. They were bigger on average than my two non-spider babies, they hatched out quicker, and they were the first to shed and start eating. No problems whatsoever getting them started. If you look around you'll start to notice that most of the anti-spider crowd have either never owned one, or don't have much experience with them. Meanwhile, most breeders who have knowledge and experience with these gorgeous snakes say they are healthy. Who you believe is up to you.

A few things I can tell you about spiders:

1. The wobble is variable. Not only does it differ from spider to spider, but it also differes from one moment to another. Spiders wobble when excited or under stress, but they move around normally most of the time. If you could see my spiders moving around their tubs, or slithering across my room while they're calm, you wouldn't notice any difference between the way they move and any other BP.
2. The wobble isn't inherently debilitating. If it were, these animals would not thrive as they do. People pooh-pooh it when breeders say that spiders eat, shed, poop, and breed just as well as other snakes, but all of these things are signs of health in a ball python. As we all know, BPs will skip meals for seemingly no reason. An that was suffering would not do as well as most spiders.
3. Both the severity of the wobble and the number of severe cases of wobble are greatly exaggerated. One example is when people compare them to pugs, or other dogs with deformities that cause them pain and health issues. It's not an accurite comparison. Spiders don't have a skull deformity or difficulty breathing. It would be more accurate to compare them to a dog that walks around normally most of the time, but jumps so high that it falls over when excited. I'm sure plenty of toy dogs do that, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say people shouldn't breed them because of it.
4. Spiders have good temperament. At least all the ones I've worked with have. I've never had a defensive or nippy spider. At worst, some have been a little flighty when stressed, but they're typically a very friendly and easy-going snake.
5. Spiders have great appetite! Mine typically do not turn down a meal unless they're in shed, breeding, or getting ready to lay eggs. None of them have been particularly picky either. Always great to have a snake that will eat the other snakes' leftovers.
6. They're just plain gorgeous! I have to admit I haven't always been a big fan of black and yellow, but with all the great combos out there you don't have to be. Throw them into coral glow, hypo, or some other color mutation to add some amazing pattern. You want a white snake? White pieds are as white as you can get and some spider pieds have no pattern at all. Look up "white wedding" ball pythons.

Now, all of that said I respect that some people don't like spiders. You're entitled to your own opinions and feelings. If you don't want them in your collection that's perfectly fine by me. I also want to thank everyone in this thread thus far for not going the "breeders are all greedy and care nothing for the health of their snakes" route. It's great to speak with a group of people mature enough to state their reservations without attacking people who don't agree with them. I think y'all are missing out on a great morph, but thanks for being awesome about it.

---

Honestly, the more i look, the more ive been wanting a spider morph. Banana spiders look gorgeous, and im gonna be looking at others for sure! Thank you for the input.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crowfingers

Not to be a pain, but I have to disagree. I see dozens of dogs a day, the purebreds and designer breeds have more chronic issues - as an example it is 100% known fact that boxers as a breed have a higher chance of dilated cardiomyopathy than random mixes (dobermans and Irish wolfhounds too). A golden-doodle is more likely to have allergies than a jack russle/poodle/beagle/lab mix. All toy breeds have much higher chances of dental issues - because they have been bred to be small - genetically as canines they are trying to fit the same number of teeth into a skull that nature never intended. Therefore the more breeds you throw into a genetic make up the less likely genetic issues are to be expressed - it's called hybrid vigor.

I do agree that mixes can have the issues for their parent breeds - which is why if you have a "white-footed" mutt that develops cancer, you should have it genetic tested for the MDR1 gene to ensure it can tolerate certain chemo-therapies and other drugs. The MDR1 issue stems from collies and other herding breeds. I have met and treated very sick mutts too, it's just not as common for the chronic issues that I see in other breeds.

Again: no disrespect, but I have this talk with clients on an almost weekly basis - hybrid vigor will win out over line-genetics more often than not

---

This is 100% true. Genetic diversity produces healthier offspring because they have a wider gene pool from which to choose the healthiest genes.

This is true of all organisms including humans, which is why the idea of racial superiority, nationalism and a dislike of interracial families is so moronic. The children literally have the benefit of inheriting the strongest genes from each population.

For example, people of European heritage have a higher chance of carrying genes related to Cystic Fibrosis and people of African heritage have a higher chance of carrying genes related to Sickle Cell Anaemia. The resulting children from that pairing would inherit the healthiest genes from each parent and consequently a lower chance of developing either illness. It's basic genetics.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

My OD Bee used to wobble a little when I got her, but she doesn’t anymore. She does like to twist and turn a lot and sniff up and backwards a lot. To the degree I am amazed she can even do it without falling over. Hence the name Ms. Bender. Wouldn’t trade her for the world. My spinner has zero wobbles and never has. My black pewter Spider doesn’t wobble either. I would and will continue to get bees. My next pick up is butter bee as well, provided she is still available next week. Looking forward to making Butter BELs.

A bit extreme but I like to go hard or go home ... should people with Autism or Down’s syndrome or Alzheimer’s not procreate too? I’m a high functioning autistic and my son is in the 99th percentile for reading, math and science ... tests two grades above his current classmates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Personally I doubt I would ever get a spider because I don't think it's great to breed them. They definitely look cool and most of them don't seem to have major issues but we really don't have a great understanding about what snakes are actually feeling/capable of feeling, so I am personally erring on the side of not wanting to risk it. Given that reptile cognition is not well understood at all I think that not being that worried about spider is also a perfectly defensible position.

I do want to say that based on what I have read, the genetic mutation that causes spider is the same one that causes the wobble, so it's not something that can be bred out. The hypothesis was that the spider mutation alters the precursor cells that later become both pigment cells as well as neural cells, so you might have varying patterns and levels of neural problems in different individuals, but it would be determined basically randomly. There's not any way to ensure that spiders that you produce will have low wobble, and you will always run the risk of producing high wobble animals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fieldfare

Personally I doubt I would ever get a spider because I don't think it's great to breed them. They definitely look cool and most of them don't seem to have major issues but we really don't have a great understanding about what snakes are actually feeling/capable of feeling, so I am personally erring on the side of not wanting to risk it. Given that reptile cognition is not well understood at all I think that not being that worried about spider is also a perfectly defensible position.

I do want to say that based on what I have read, the genetic mutation that causes spider is the same one that causes the wobble, so it's not something that can be bred out. The hypothesis was that the spider mutation alters the precursor cells that later become both pigment cells as well as neural cells, so you might have varying patterns and levels of neural problems in different individuals, but it would be determined basically randomly. There's not any way to ensure that spiders that you produce will have low wobble, and you will always run the risk of producing high wobble animals.

---

No one has mentioned the fact that breeding Spider to Spider is not compatible with life. Super Spiders are lethal.

I feel that should be a factor to consider when thinking about the ethics of continuing the gene.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

My killer bee and sugar bee are two of my absolute favorite's. My sugar bee is gorgeous she is the sweetest ball python I have and really doesn't have much of the wobble. My killer bee is a big yellow jelly donut that all ways eats. But she does do the cork screwing when handled and like someone else mentioned when it comes to feeding I need to watch out. But they eat, shed and do everything else just fine. Out of my whole collection my bees have the most personality. I'd post pics but I'm at work.

So with this said if you have a rack too fill and have a spider combo on your mind go for it you shouldn't regret it.

I've been lurking this site since 2013 and I've seen alot of these spider threads and this is one of the more docile one's I've seen so good job people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fieldfare

Personally I doubt I would ever get a spider because I don't think it's great to breed them. They definitely look cool and most of them don't seem to have major issues but we really don't have a great understanding about what snakes are actually feeling/capable of feeling, so I am personally erring on the side of not wanting to risk it. Given that reptile cognition is not well understood at all I think that not being that worried about spider is also a perfectly defensible position.

I do want to say that based on what I have read, the genetic mutation that causes spider is the same one that causes the wobble, so it's not something that can be bred out. The hypothesis was that the spider mutation alters the precursor cells that later become both pigment cells as well as neural cells, so you might have varying patterns and levels of neural problems in different individuals, but it would be determined basically randomly. There's not any way to ensure that spiders that you produce will have low wobble, and you will always run the risk of producing high wobble animals.

---

I don’t know about the genetics behind it but based on my experience with breeding a spider with no signs of wobble, I would say it is not just random. She laid 7 healthy eggs which all hatched, 6 out of 7 being spider combos. Not one of them showed any signs of wobble. If it was random, I have to think at least one of her offspring would of had some wobble. This year will test the opposite because I am breeding the girl I have that does the corkscrewing. If her offspring do it as well, I think it will be pretty obviously that the severity of wobble in offspring is directly related to the severity of wobble in the parent. If this does prove out, I personally won’t be breeding any more spiders that show wobble but will continue to breed the spiders that do not show signs of wobble.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rufretic

I don’t know about the genetics behind it but based on my experience with breeding a spider with no signs of wobble, I would say it is not just random. She laid 7 healthy eggs which all hatched, 6 out of 7 being spider combos. Not one of them showed any signs of wobble. If it was random, I have to think at least one of her offspring would of had some wobble. This year will test the opposite because I am breeding the girl I have that does the corkscrewing. If her offspring do it as well, I think it will be pretty obviously that the severity of wobble in offspring is directly related to the severity of wobble in the parent. If this does prove out, I personally won’t be breeding any more spiders that show wobble but will continue to breed the spiders that do not show signs of wobble.

---

My spider dam (pictured earlier in the thread) has a moderate wobble while her hatchlings have shown little to no wobble so far. Just one example, but it confirms with what I've heard from other breeders. The wobble is said to be random. You can produce a low wobble spider from a high wobble spider and visa versa. That said, really bad wobble seems rare. I've never heard of a spider hatchling fail to thrive solely because of wobble. Here's a good read on it: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

The worst cases I've heard of seem to happen after the snake leaves the breeder. And while I'm sure there are a variety of reasons why, I don't think we can rule out the effects of stress. Some wobblers seem to get worse with age, and others seem to get better, but stress will always make a wobble worse. Most of the "bad wobblers" I've seen and heard about were either subjected to stress specifically to show the wobble, or they were kept in glass tanks with questionable husbandry. Not all, but it seems to be a common thread among really severe cases.

As a breeder, I understand and accept that the amount of wobble my hatchlings may have is out of my control, and that it's possible that if I bred spider to spider (not something I plan on doing) it may result in dead hatchlings (it doesn't always, but it has happened to some). That said, I've had more issues with thermostat malfunctions than I have had with the spider gene. I don't regret breeding my spider girl. Her hatchlings are healthy and beautiful and I'm proud of them. If she regains all her weight, I plan on breeding her again next season.

Been thinking about this thread all week and it just makes me realize how little we know about ball python genes in general. We know how to express colors and patterns, but there is so much more to learn.
Ethics aside for now, this is really just a musing - it would be such a valuable experiment to see what exactly these wobble genes do (in spiders, womas, champagne, etc). especially in the "fatal" combos. The why's of the genes, not just the observable side.

Of course it would require someone dedicate their time to a collection of breeding adults of these morphs in enough numbers to have a good sample size, breed them, incubate eggs that may not ever produce viable young, and have access/assistance from both an embryologist and a genealogist that specialize in reptile development. The failed embryos would have to be necropsied and compared to healthy embryos in the same developmental stage to discover if they were progressing at the correct rate and with the correct parts. I have no idea how much that would all cost lol -

Maybe the gene that causes 'super spiders' to fail is linked to heart or liver/kidney development, maybe the wobble itself is not a gene at all but is a side effect of a gene that prevents correct myelin sheath formation/function? Maybe all of these genes that cause the combos to fail have something developmental that causes the eggs to be slugs in the first place. If the spider gene occupies the same place in the sequence as the champagne gene, maybe there's something else on that sequence that is key to survival. There would just be so much to discover.

This is just the scientific side of my brain wondering about stuff too complex for me to really understand. Also, man what a depressing and time consuming experiment that would be...I have no idea what producing non-viable eggs over time can do to a female, but I assume any egg production is hard on their bodies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crowfingers

Been thinking about this thread all week and it just makes me realize how little we know about ball python genes in general. We know how to express colors and patterns, but there is so much more to learn.
Ethics aside for now, this is really just a musing - it would be such a valuable experiment to see what exactly these wobble genes do (in spiders, womas, champagne, etc). especially in the "fatal" combos. The why's of the genes, not just the observable side.

Of course it would require someone dedicate their time to a collection of breeding adults of these morphs in enough numbers to have a good sample size, breed them, incubate eggs that may not ever produce viable young, and have access/assistance from both an embryologist and a genealogist that specialize in reptile development. The failed embryos would have to be necropsied and compared to healthy embryos in the same developmental stage to discover if they were progressing at the correct rate and with the correct parts. I have no idea how much that would all cost lol -

Maybe the gene that causes 'super spiders' to fail is linked to heart or liver/kidney development, maybe the wobble itself is not a gene at all but is a side effect of a gene that prevents correct myelin sheath formation/function? Maybe all of these genes that cause the combos to fail have something developmental that causes the eggs to be slugs in the first place. If the spider gene occupies the same place in the sequence as the champagne gene, maybe there's something else on that sequence that is key to survival. There would just be so much to discover.

This is just the scientific side of my brain wondering about stuff too complex for me to really understand. Also, man what a depressing and time consuming experiment that would be...I have no idea what producing non-viable eggs over time can do to a female, but I assume any egg production is hard on their bodies.

---

Honestly, I was thinking about this too, and doing more research, the topic of "Super Spider" is still highly controversial. From what i'm reading here and there, its generally considered "fatal", but some people are claiming that they have done it and the babies survived. There isn't really any proof to back these up.

If there is a Super Spider that can live, like the "Pearl" that miraculously survived a long time ago, it hasn't been bred yet. This could be because it is an actually fatal combo, or is such a rare chance that we aren't breeding it enough to get one, for the fear of the first reason.

It would be interesting if someone could actually do what you are saying, like track the development of the embryos, and maybe fix and allow a super to exist? My only worry is a "Super" of a wobble gene may not end too well... (Look at HGW x HGW)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slicercrush

Honestly, I was thinking about this too, and doing more research, the topic of "Super Spider" is still highly controversial. From what i'm reading here and there, its generally considered "fatal", but some people are claiming that they have done it and the babies survived. There isn't really any proof to back these up.

If there is a Super Spider that can live, like the "Pearl" that miraculously survived a long time ago, it hasn't been bred yet. This could be because it is an actually fatal combo, or is such a rare chance that we aren't breeding it enough to get one, for the fear of the first reason.

It would be interesting if someone could actually do what you are saying, like track the development of the embryos, and maybe fix and allow a super to exist? My only worry is a "Super" of a wobble gene may not end too well... (Look at HGW x HGW)

---

There is a research paper about it on researchgate or something, but not a member so could read the full thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've done lots on interweb scrounging on the whole spider to spider thing myself and I've seen a lot of people saying that only the super spiders will die. I have never personally tried it but NERD says that spider to spider is fine. I watched a Olympus Reptiles video here a while back and he was saying that he had saw a video of a super spider that actually made it to full term and hatched but it died later on. I'll have to go rewatch the video and see if I can catch a name or a link to the video he was talking about.

Sorry but this stuff kinda reminds me of the Nazis and their experiments... Very macabre.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spechal

There is a research paper about it on researchgate or something, but not a member so could read the full thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Do you know the title of the paper? I found one called "Neurological dysfunction in a ball python (Python regius) colour morph and implications for welfare" but unfortunately it didn't really get into the mechanics of how spider works.

For anyone curious who can't access the paper, it was actually pretty similar to the discussion in this thread! Here's part of the discussion and conclusion sections, which gives an overview of what was covered:

"Clinical signs of the wobble condition are indicative of a central nervous system disorder. Although prevalence of the condition among spider morphs remains unclear, with many experts stating that all are affected, there is consensus thata minority are severely affected in their ability to perform species-appropriate behaviours, relative towild-type, captive pythons. No data are available on longevity of these morphs, given the relatively recent discovery of the spider morph in ball pythons, a species recorded to reach 47.5 years. Although breeders generally agreed that quality of life was not significantly affected, 89% (25/28)of welfare scientists concluded a moderate to high welfare effect based on the information available.This disparity may reflect biases inherent in the respective groups."

"The strength of the herpetocultural industry is in its community of enthusiasts, closely connected by web-based media. It is self-evident from a review of such media that most herpetoculturists care greatly for the health and welfare of their companion animals and/or breeding stock. This aspect of horticulturist community should be supported and used to fuel further research into the welfare consequences of heritable disorders in reptile species, effectively disseminate findings, and improve self-regulation by community leaders."

Let me know if anyone wants any more of the paper posted. Honestly it was very similar to this thread and if you know about spider you probably could have written a lot of it. Besides the background info on spider, they surveyed both breeders and welfare scientists on their opinions about the behavior/health/ethics of spiders. So basically the peer reviewed version of this thread haha.

edited to fix the spacing on one of the quotes

That’s it ... https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ns_for_welfare


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spechal

That’s it ... https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ns_for_welfare


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Ill give it a read when i get home, thanks! Looks interesting.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Not to bring it back to the dog thing but I see this comparison a lot when the wobble argument is brought up.

It’s important to realize that the spider gene is a SINGLE gene (single locus) acting to influence the characteristics of an animal, while the smashed faces and breathing problems inherent to brachycephalic dogs is the work of many different genes on different loci coming together to influence the look of the animal; being brachycephalic is a polygenic trait, is what I’m getting at, and it’s not a very apt comparison if you want to draw analogies between deleterious traits.

A more accurate comparison would be the breeding of “super merle” or “double merle” aussies (and other breeds that carry the trait). The “super merle” dogs can command a high price tag and are generally born either deaf, blind, or both... and are usually bought and brought home before the buyer realizes the pup’s abnormalities. The supers are generally all or almost all white, and it does raise an interesting question (in my mind at least) as to whether the heterozygote merles possibly show subtle genetic or behavioral flaws, such as spiders do.

Sources for those who are interested:

http://www.amazingaussies.com/What%2...l%20Whites.pdf

http://www.dogingtonpost.com/double-...y-preventable/