Help identify my first clutch!

Okay guys, this one's a twofer. Originally I was just going to ask for help with the pied, but then I noticed something odd in a few other hatchlings. Now I need help with the whole clutch.

Part 1. This one should be easy, but I don't know how to tell the difference between a leopard pied and single gene pied. I think I see leopard in her pattern, but it might just be the pied gene.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/nq8ylv.jpg

Here's another picture so you can see all of her:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/zvyhol.jpg

So what do you think, leopard or no leopard? And if you breed leopard pieds, how do you tell the difference between a leopard pied and a single gene pied?

Part 2. I'm wondering if there's an additional gene at play in this clutch. The theory started with this girl right here:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/2qlfogj.jpg
Gorgeous, right? I've never seen a single gene leopard with such a reduced pattern. Here's another pic of her for reference:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/sqi8ag.jpg
So she has a few "eyes" in her alienheads, but they're absent from the majority of her pattern. Her father has plenty of them and it's a different look. Here he is:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/23k91mu.jpg
He's a beautiful leopard, but there's nothing atypical about his pattern. After thinking about it for awhile, I remembered seeing this on morph market:
https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/98687
It doesn't quite look like her, but it looks more like her than her father. I figured that I might have a pattern reducing gene on my hands, and that if I did, she wouldn't be the only one in the clutch that had it. I had noticed differences between my two spider hatchlings earlier, so I took the opportunity to compare them side by side:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/2bz50w.jpg
Right off the bat you can see that they're very distinct from one another. The male (on bottom) is darker and bolder. He has less striping down the sides too, so I think he has the reduced pattern. In the egg I wasn't quite sure if he was a spider or a leopard spider. I'm sure he isn't leopard now that he's out, but that doesn't mean he's a single gene either. If there is an additional gene at play, I'm sure he got it from his mother.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/2vc7sc3.jpg
See how the stripes on her side fade out the closer you get to her tail? I always thought she had a pretty reduced pattern, but never expected it to prove genetic. Knowing that she's passed it on to some of her offspring, I started looking at pattern reducing genes. I started with blade, because it's fairly popular. I was able to find some blade spiders. Blade reduces a spider's pattern, but it doesn't seem to cause the missing side stripes in my reduced spiders.

Blade isn't the only pattern reducer out there, and I noticed during my search that it's usually more common on het clowns than het pieds, so I decided to take a look at the Kalabash Reduction Gene. Now, I've never worked with KRG animals before, or even paid them much attention really. But when I found KRG spiders on morph market I found more missing side stripes. Take a look at these animals:

https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/27796
https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/27788
https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/42157

Not only do they have the missing side stripes, but look at the black markings along their spines, a lot like my breeder female. The second KRG spider also has a headstamp that looks a lot like the male spider hatchling with the reduced pattern.

I think I found my answer, but I want to make sure I'm not just seeing things. I don't have a lot of experience with pattern reducers, so professional input would be much appreciated.

Oh, and one last thing. I haven't shown you this guy yet:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/fx49yt.jpg
I don't think there's pattern reduction in him, but I didn't want to leave him out. He looks like a typical (perfectly gorgeous!) leopard spider to me. Gonna have a hard time parting with this guy.

So that's the whole clutch. I don't think the pattern reducer is in the pied either, not that I would have any way of knowing. But if it is KRG, I'd expect a KRG pied to have less pattern. I discovered during my search that KRG is known for producing high white pieds. Whatever this pattern reducer is, I am sure the male spider and female leopard that have it. And their mother, of course.

For reference all the hatchlings have had their first shed. The ones with the spider gene have also had their first meal. The pairing was Leopard het Pied x Spider het Pied, and there was one dead kinked normal in the clutch. No pattern reduction on that one either.

Can't help you at all but just want to say congrats on the first clutch and they look stunning! 1 & 2 look incredible!

Well done and hopefully they are good to you!

Thanks! They're doing really well so far. They all shed out in one piece and three out of the five are eating, just waiting on the last two. Hopefully they will take a meal next weekend.

Deborah works with Leopard Pieds and can prob ID them better than most. IMO that is a Leopard Pied. they seem to keep some sort of semblance of their pattern more than other Pied combos.

i think that second Leopard is "reduced" b/c it has very strong het Pied influence. could you share belly pix of this one? also the reduced Spider? but i would be really, really cool if your dam Spider het Pied did have a reduction gene like KRG.

also congrats! great looking clutch!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ax01

Deborah works with Leopard Pieds and can prob ID them better than most.

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Yeah, I'm hoping Deborah will see this thread and chime in at some point. An ID would mean a lot coming from her.

Quote:

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IMO that is a Leopard Pied. they seem to keep some sort of semblance of their pattern more than other Pied combos.

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Thanks for putting that into words. I've been thinking the same thing, but I wasn't sure if it was applicable to all leopard pieds, or just a few particular examples.

Quote:

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i think that second Leopard is "reduced" b/c it has very strong het Pied influence. could you share belly pix of this one? also the reduced Spider? but i would be really, really cool if your dam Spider het Pied did have a reduction gene like KRG.

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Unfortunately, none of the babies have strong pied markers, but neither does the dam. Here's the whole family for you:

The Sire
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/2d6mwbb.jpg
His underside isn't quite white, but he has the strongest railroad tracks of the bunch.

The Dam
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/20kqiab.jpg
Mostly clear underneath, but no railroad tracks to speak of.

The normal? spider hatchling
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/2a7sk7s.jpg
It was hard to get her to hold still, but there's not much to see here.

The leopard spider hatchling
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/wt6a34.jpg
Just a few blotches.

The reduced leopard
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/21edy8l.jpg
Pretty typical leopard underbelly, imo. Nothing really screams het pied markers to me.

The reduced spider
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/5vsnd2.jpg
This guy does have a bit of black near the vent. Not quite railroad tracks, but more than the other hatchlings.

And just because I can, the pied
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/ekkh9e.jpg
I love the little orange stripe right after her cloaca. Super cute.

Quote:

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also congrats! great looking clutch!

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Thanks! They are really neat, extra gene or not. I really appreciate your input. The tail pics were an important addition to the thread, and I wouldn't have thought to post them without you.

I've been digging through old forum posts and I found an interesting statement on this thread: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...bash-goodness! A breeder who works with the KRG gene said:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimFoxValleyReptiles

As babies they have very peachy /orange sides...

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The funny thing is... I think I'm seeing this on all my spider gene hatchlings? I've PMed JimFoxValleyReptiles and asked him to take a look at this thread. Perhaps I'll try to take pictures of the peachy sides on my hatchlings and post them later.

yes those tracks can be a clue but i was looking for the reverse - subtle ringers. ;)

anyways very nice cute lil bellies. i esp. love that reverse ringer - orange ring on the Leo Pied. :)

Call me simple, but my favorite of the bunch is that bright orange piebald! Wowzer!!!

O, and I don’t see any KRG. I own one KRG so far and have studied their markings in depth from Tom Parker’s collection.

Thanks everyone! I appreciate the feedback.

@Ax01: Yeah, no ringers either. Just a really lovely snake.

@Godzilla78: The pied is a knockout. She's a keeper for sure. Also thanks for weighing in on the KRG. Since I can't currently recognize them, can you tell me what the difference is?

Your pied and leopard ... beautiful. That’s exactly the reason I want to small time breed. Kudos!


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That is one really nice clutch, congratulations!

Thanks everyone! This week they all ate for me, frozen-thawed too. A few of them seemed spooked by the live rats last week, so I thawed some frozen fuzzies out and they all took one! I've decided I'm going to keep the Leopard girl as well. Extra gene or not, she is just too amazing to let go of. A few more meals and the spiders and leopard spider will be ready for new homes.

It was the first meal for these two:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/5vn7e0.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/4jp7hd.jpg

And it was the second meal for these guys:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/xpmye0.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/2mex08j.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/2lw4nlg.jpg

Sorry for the bad photo quality. I waited until after dark to feed them.

Congrats! It’s always a nice relief once they take their first meal.

The_rotten1,

Since the last messages we've shared you've posted pics of the bellies of the Spiders in question. Also, a second look at the Dame (it's "Dame" folks, not Dam, look it up) has me convinced, it is without question, reduced. I can't tell from your photo, but KRG brings an abundance of melanin to the table in it's bands where as Blade, Enchi, and Woma tend to have brown bands. Both neonate Spiders have reduced patterns, the male has Leopard, but the other gene is at play too, the female, has no Leopard, and the other gene is very evident in it's reduction. Your Dame looks very similar to Louies ( Juggler Ball Pythons) Spider KRG on WOBP. (I have seen and held this animal on several occasions). The only real way to be sure is to breed it. Having worked with, bred, and produced several KRG clutches, I would not say "it is not KRG".

P.S. Your pied is without a doubt Leopard.

Jim

Here's a side shot of a single gene KRG het pied...

[IMG
]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...blushing_1.jpg[/IMG]

Another shot of the sides.
Jim

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._blushing2.jpg[/IMG]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimFoxValleyReptiles

The_rotten1,

Since the last messages we've shared you've posted pics of the bellies of the Spiders in question. Also, a second look at the Dame (it's "Dame" folks, not Dam, look it up) has me convinced, it is without question, reduced. I can't tell from your photo, but KRG brings an abundance of melanin to the table in it's bands where as Blade, Enchi, and Woma tend to have brown bands. Both neonate Spiders have reduced patterns, the male has Leopard, but the other gene is at play too, the female, has no Leopard, and the other gene is very evident in it's reduction. Your Dame looks very similar to Louies ( Juggler Ball Pythons) Spider KRG on WOBP. (I have seen and held this animal on several occasions). The only real way to be sure is to breed it. Having worked with, bred, and produced several KRG clutches, I would not say "it is not KRG".

P.S. Your pied is without a doubt Leopard.

Jim

Here's a side shot of a single gene KRG het pied...

[IMG
]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...blushing_1.jpg[/IMG]

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I really don’t want to hijack this thread but I also don’t want to miss out on the knowledge you obviously have. What do you make of this girl?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7d5e86e74.heichttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...106f40753.heichttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fe5a2223f.heichttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a04e862a5.heichttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2808d979a.heic


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[QUOTE=Spechal;2624368]I really don’t want to hijack this thread but I also don’t want to miss out on the knowledge you obviously have. What do you make of this girl?



I think it's a beautiful animal. What did the breeder you purchased it from tell you she is? Or if you produced her , who were the Dame and Sire? Otherwise it's like me asking you "what do you make of this boy?"

Jim

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...r_2_548594.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=JimFoxValleyReptiles;2624384]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spechal

I really don’t want to hijack this thread but I also don’t want to miss out on the knowledge you obviously have. What do you make of this girl?



I think it's a beautiful animal. What did the breeder you purchased it from tell you she is? Or if you produced her , who were the Dame and Sire? Otherwise it's like me asking you "what do you make of this boy?"

Jim

[IMG]https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...r_2_548594.jpg[/IMG]

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I wish I could tell you, but it was an unintended purchase at a box store being sold off on sale as a normal. I am going to breed her when she gets old enough to see what happens, just looking for some other ideas as others have identified it as a possible phantom or mystic YB. The oranges from your previous post prompted me to ask you. I appreciate you looking but it sounds like I will just have to do more research and pair it with something similar looking or completely different and just never know.


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I would lean toward Phantom with something else. I don't think Yellow Belly, it might be because of the pics (they never look like our animals) but I'm not seeing the "orange blushing and flames" I would expect on a Yellow Belly. I do have a Leopard Phantom Yellow Belly het Pied girl and the tracks look different, could be because of the Leo. You probably have another gene in there, I do see the Phantom though. Wish I could help. :(

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimFoxValleyReptiles

I would lean toward Phantom with something else. I don't think Yellow Belly, it might be because of the pics (they never look like our animals) but I'm not seeing the "orange blushing and flames" I would expect on a Yellow Belly. I do have a Leopard Phantom Yellow Belly het Pied girl and the tracks look different, could be because of the Leo. You probably have another gene in there, I do see the Phantom though. Wish I could help. :(

Jim

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I was thinking Spark is in the mix. Thank you for your input.


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@JimFoxValleyReptiles Thanks again for your input. I'm glad someone else sees the pattern reduction. I'm certain something is going on with the leopard hatchling at least, if not with the Dame and the male hatchling spider.

By the way, when you say "the male has leopard", do you mean the leopard spider, or the male that I think is just a spider with the reduction gene? To be clear, there are two males with the spider gene in them. I'm fairly certain that only one has leopard. I think the other has the reduction gene, but I suppose the leopard spider could have it too. This is my first time producing one and I'm not sure if he's significantly different than other leopard spiders.

But now that I've seen more KRG, I tend to agree that it's probably not the reduction gene I'm seeing in this clutch. I'll definitely breed the female again, hopefully that will help clarify some things. And thanks for helping identify the leopard pied.

Back on topic, I saw something on morph market today that caught my attention: https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...pythons/130465

The snake in the link looks an awful lot like my girl, and she's a leopard yellowbelly. I've seen leopard yellowbellies before, but never with a pattern that reduced. I'm aware that yellowbellies can be very variable though, some with busy jungle-like patterns and others with reduction instead. I did a little digging and there are other reduced pattern leopard yellowbellies out there from other breeders, so I don't think the appearance of the one in the link is a fluke, or due to her het.

If the reduction I'm seeing in my clutch is yellowbelly, it could be hiding in my spiders. Admittedly, I've always had a hard time seeing yellowbelly in spiders. I think my Dame is similar to this one though: https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...pythons/105922

It has some of the same traits that I thought were KRG, like the missing stripes and the floating black marks on her back. Now that I've compared the two, I think hers are more like yellowbelly spiders than KRG spiders. If she is a yellowbelly, then I'm fairly certain the male spider is too. He's definitely a momma's boy in terms of color and pattern.

I'm still not sure on the leopard spider. I pulled a few pics off morphmarket for comparison.
Leopard spider: https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...pythons/104098
Yellowbelly leopard spider: https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/79910

In terms of color, my boy is more like the first, but in terms of pattern, more like the second. He's busier near the head than most leopard spiders I've seen. He's more peachy yellow than green-ish yellow though.

So what does everyone think? Is yellowbelly my missing pattern reducer? If it is, which snakes have it and which don't?

Today I decided to take belly pics of my Leopard ph Pied (now strongly suspected yellowbelly) hatchling. Does this look a "checkered" pattern to you?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...com/4rpyd5.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/25oyz53.jpg

The sides are a bit closer together than most yellowbellies, but it looks similar to me. Maybe it's the leopard influence changing things up, or the ph pied. I'm really not sure. Either way, I've decided to hold this girl back.

^ looks more het Pied IMO. if it had YB, there would be other YB indicators as well. glad u held her back, she's super pretty and will surely prove out. :gj: