Sick ball python

Hello all, it's been a while. I have a friend who just recently got into herp keeping with a hatchling ball python from a reputable local breeder. She sent me pictures today and called me very concerned. Her pet is lying upside down, has bumps on its body and is impacted. I advised her to see the vet in the morning, but frankly I'm afraid that's not going to help much. I just wanted to get a few other opinions. I'm afraid I need to prep her for the worst. Thoughts or ideas of what it might be? My fears are ibd.
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Oh no...I'm so sorry! How long has she had the snake? Has it ever fed for her? (you mention "impaction"...is that based on appearance & assumption, or what?)

It could possibly be IBD or something else, but I agree it looks very serious, maybe fatal. The bumps are peculiar. Keep us posted, ok? Poor snake...:please:

I'm super ignorant to health issues with BP (thankfully) but we're going to need a loooooot more info, as IBD is not a word to throw around lightly:

where did the snake come from?
what's the husbandry run-down?
when did the snake last eat and what?
are the bumps soft or hard to the touch?
what makes you suspect impaction?
what other symptoms are there?
is the snake even alive??

i can tell you now that this is likely not IBD, as most people throw that out there all the time when a snake is sick with 0 evidence of IBD. sometimes the first sign of IBD is an RI. i suspect an infection, likely a bad one. but again, i'm no expert.

that snake needs a vet like yesterday.

Just guessing that "IBD" was mentioned because of the snake lying nearly upside down, but I agree you shouldn't jump to that conclusion at all.
The snake looks very uncomfortable & the bumps do suggest "major infection" to me as well. I hope your friend has a good herp vet nearby, this is
no time for a rookie. How suddenly did these symptoms occur?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

this is no time for a rookie.

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i felt stupid replying due to my own ignorance in these situations but i really want to help that poor snake and OP/the owner.

at least i can BAMP the thread since it's late. [emoji852]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

I'm super ignorant to health issues with BP (thankfully) but we're going to need a loooooot more info, as IBD is not a word to throw around lightly:

where did the snake come from?
what's the husbandry run-down?
when did the snake last eat and what?
are the bumps soft or hard to the touch?
what makes you suspect impaction?
what other symptoms are there?
is the snake even alive??

i can tell you now that this is likely not IBD, as most people throw that out there all the time when a snake is sick with 0 evidence of IBD. sometimes the first sign of IBD is an RI. i suspect an infection, likely a bad one. but again, i'm no expert.

that snake needs a vet like yesterday.

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Given that it's not my animal, and i have not physically seen it, that's asking generally more information than I can give. It was, of last text with her, alive.
Impaction is suspected because 1. The appearance of her back end. 2. Info from the owner that she has not had a bm on the schedule that is normal for her. 3. Her last 3 movements per the owners words "were liquid with no feces."
I gave her guidance to set up the tank, from speaking with her temp and humidity should be correct - again I have not seen the animal.
She has had the snake a few months.
The bumps appear firm, but again, I haven't seen this animal in person.
She is displaying heavily neurological symptoms. She seems to be unable to right herself and will thrash/spin when trying to move.
I'm not saying that ibd is what this animal has, but that the symptoms generally fit and I am asking for other and/or corroborating opinions from people more knowledgeable than I.
So far as I know, a vet trip is pending in the morning.
My main intention with this post was to give the owner some information about potential issues that this could be and options for care until the animal could be seen by a vet.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Just guessing that "IBD" was mentioned because of the snake lying nearly upside down, but I agree you shouldn't jump to that conclusion at all.
The snake looks very uncomfortable & the bumps do suggest "major infection" to me as well. I hope your friend has a good herp vet nearby, this is
no time for a rookie. How suddenly did these symptoms occur?

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The lying upside down happened today so far as I know. The bumps have been visible for a couple days.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

Given that it's not my animal, and i have not physically seen it, that's asking generally more information than I can give.

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i apologize for the barrage of questions that you can't answer. any more info can help others help you and the owner/snake better.

is it possible to ask the owner to post here with more details?

a firm bump is alarming.

i'm wondering if a prey item has rotted in the stomach and caused a massive infection. this would be due to inadequate heat for digestion. this is why we need as much info as possible, as i can only speculate. i have 0 experience with this stuff and am just guessing.

i'm wondering aloud. again, i apologize for throwing a bunch of text at you; i just want to help.

I should mention, I had her soak her in warm water to hopefully encourage a bm and relieve discomfort. She said that it appeared to help, but she had not passed anything as of last text.

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We're all trying to help as best we can...I've never personally seen IBD (thankfully!), only on forums & some reading online. Can't blame anyone for at least
considering IBD with those neuro symptoms...but none of us are seeing the actual snake, & it's up to the vet to fully evaluate. I hope this is her only reptile?
About all she can do is keep the snake quiet for the time being, & get to the vet asap. (what rotten luck, for her AND the snake)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

I should mention, I had her soak her in warm water to hopefully encourage a bm and relieve discomfort. She said that it appeared to help, but she had not passed anything as of last text.

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thanks for an update.

EDIT: what makes them think it helped?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

I should mention, I had her soak her in warm water to hopefully encourage a bm and relieve discomfort. She said that it appeared to help, but she had not passed anything as of last text.

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That's what I'd have done too, good suggestion. I once saved a starved & severely impacted bearded dragon with warm water soaks (& some oral doses of mineral oil-
that was suggested by the vet).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

i apologize for the barrage of questions that you can't answer. any more info can help others help you and the owner/snake better.

is it possible to ask the owner to post here with more details?

a firm bump is alarming.

i'm wondering if a prey item has rotted in the stomach and caused a massive infection. this would be due to inadequate heat for digestion. this is why we need as much info as possible, as i can only speculate. i have 0 experience with this stuff and am just guessing.

i'm wondering aloud. again, i apologize for throwing a bunch of text at you; i just want to help.

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No worries, I will ask her, but I suspect she's asleep by now.

That is a possibility I had not thought of. All the issues going on with her immediately makes one think the worst. I don't know for sure that the bumps are firm, just that they look like they are. I will text and ask her.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

thanks for an update.

EDIT: what makes them think it helped?

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She stopped thrashing and seemed more comfortable

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

She stopped thrashing and seemed more comfortable

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seems like a positive turn. thanks for the clarification.

TBH you might want to brace the owner for the reality of what might happen, tho i hope i'm wrong. [emoji852]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

We're all trying to help as best we can...I've never personally seen IBD (thankfully!), only on forums & some reading online. Can't blame anyone for at least
considering IBD with those neuro symptoms...but none of us are seeing the actual snake, & it's up to the vet to fully evaluate. I hope this is her only reptile?
About all she can do is keep the snake quiet for the time being, & get to the vet asap. (what rotten luck, for her AND the snake)

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Yes, her first. I've not seen anything like this. She called telling me there were "blisters" and I thought for sure that the heat source was getting too hot. Then she mentioned she was lying upside down and couldn't right herself. I had her send pictures, stared for a bit, told her she needed a vet, and posted here.

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The thrashing & appearance of neuro issues could just be internal pain too, which could explain why the warm bath seemed to help. Could she have ingested substrate?

The blisters (& I was assuming the 'bumps' are soft, but they're alarming either way) suggest massive infection or maybe internal injury?
I bet she wishes she'd have taken the snake to the vet when the blisters were first noticed...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

seems like a positive turn. thanks for the clarification.

TBH you might want to brace the owner for the reality of what might happen, tho i hope i'm wrong. [emoji852]

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I did. Hopefully it's a simple infection and she makes it to the vet appointment.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

The thrashing & appearance of neuro issues could just be internal pain too, which could explain why the warm bath seemed to help. Could she have ingested substrate?

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She feeds in the same tank as pictured. Could be a possibility.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

I did. Hopefully it's a simple infection and she makes it to the vet appointment.

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i'll be sure to BAMP (bump) this thread in the morning when more users (and more experienced users) will be online.

you're doing so much for your friend and their snake. i thank you for being so proactive on their behalf.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

i'll be sure to BAMP (bump) this thread in the morning when more users (and more experienced users) will be online.

you're doing so much for your friend and their snake. i thank you for being so proactive on their behalf.

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I'd appreciate it. Hopefully the vet will have seen her by then and her owner knows what's wrong!

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You mentioned that the snake's last 3 outputs were all liquid...that does suggest a GI issue. If she swallowed substrate, she might have perforated
something internally. (always want to feed on a "plate"-can be a shoe box lid etc.- when using wood shavings in cage...which btw I have never used)

Sure hope the vet can help & that this snake makes it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

You mentioned that the snake's last 3 outputs were all liquid...that does suggest a GI issue. If she swallowed substrate, she might have perforated
something internally. (always want to feed on a "plate"-can be a shoe box lid etc.- when using wood shavings in cage...which btw I have never used)

Sure hope the vet can help & that this snake makes it...

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just to provide a conversation to help OP: a snake would have to ingest a LOT of substrate for it to be a huge issue like it is. i mean, snakes digest bones; a bit of substrate shouldn't cause something like this (keyword: shouldn't).

tho you bringing up that fact that OP said the snake has had liquid feces is a whole other piece of this sad puzzle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tttaylorrr

just to provide a conversation to help OP: a snake would have to ingest a LOT of substrate for it to be a huge issue like it is. i mean, snakes digest bones; a bit of substrate shouldn't cause something like this (keyword: shouldn't).

tho you bringing up that fact that OP said the snake has had liquid feces is a whole other piece of this sad puzzle.

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Snakes cannot digest wood shavings. In the wild, snakes certainly do ingest some debris along with their prey...and even in a cage full of wood shavings, I don't
think the snake could have ingested very much. (Not like the bearded dragon that I saved years ago...he was ONLY fed large crickets -the hind legs of which are
very hard to digest- & kept on shavings, which he consumed in desperation, wanting veggies & which left him starving, impacted & unable to digest or pass anything.)

Anyway, when snakes feed, sometimes a little substrate gets swallowed, but most is knocked off in the swallowing process. What I'm getting at here though is the
possibility of the snake having swallowed a small splinter* that might have punctured him internally, causing infection etc. It has happened before- not to me, & for
that reason, I never use wood shavings of any kind. I know some are safer than others, many like to use aspen, that's their choice...it's just not mine.

*I was watching a really good medical mystery series last year: this guy got REALLY sick with severe GI pain etc...turns out he had accidentally swallowed a metal
bristle from the brush he cleaned his BBQ grill with- it was embedded in the meat he had for dinner...obviously he didn't chew thoroughly & it ended up perforating
his colon & resulting in a major medical emergency. So think about a snake...they don't chew & their enzymes cannot digest wood, so if a sliver were to make it as
far as the metal bristle that guy swallowed did and perforate his gut, I'd imagine you'd have symptoms like this poor suffering snake?

I've used wood shavings for literally decades, for all the rodents I've raised. They are mass produced, they are pretty good at having a consistent flake or chip size,
but there are still pieces that get by their processing...always. Just saying. So if an unlucky snake managed to ingest such a piece, it still might soften up & be
passed along with the stool...or maybe not, and in some percentage of cases it could do some internal damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

So if an unlucky snake managed to ingest such a piece, it still might soften up & be passed along with the stool...or maybe not, and in some percentage of cases it could do some internal damage.

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yes, it's not outside the realm of possibility. i appreciate the discussion.

I have no crystal ball, of course...that's just one of many possibilities.
That medical series was all true stories reenacted, btw- some of the weirdest things ever, called "Monsters Inside Me", mostly about parasites & infectious diseases, a documentary cross between medical mysteries & horror. Weird stuff really happens, our local hospital has a collection on display near the emergency room of all the weird things they've removed from people...:O No wonder doctors develop a macabre sense of humor?

I hope the vet can figure it out & be able to help in time. Snakes are so stoic, we may not get much warning about how sick they are.

Early morning update. She says the bumps are gone and color has improved since the soak. No bm, and no thrashing/spinning that she has observed so far.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

Early morning update. She says the bumps are gone and color has improved since the soak. No bm, and no thrashing/spinning that she has observed so far.

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I just read this a little while ago, was hoping for an update before replying. So thanks for the update.

That's certainly good news, hopefully the vet can shed some more light on the subject. I'll be sending positive vibes and watching for updates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

I just read this a little while ago, was hoping for an update before replying. So thanks for the update.

That's certainly good news, hopefully the vet can shed some more light on the subject. I'll be sending positive vibes and watching for updates.

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It is good news, but certainly adds to the mystery! I'll update as I get information.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

It is good news, but certainly adds to the mystery! I'll update as I get information.

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No doubt. I certainly don't think the snake is "in the clear", something is definitely not right. But I've got no experience there, so can't offer advice other than the animal still needs to see a vet.
Thanks again, I'll be looking forward to updates as you get them.

She's still keeping vet appointment, right?

morning BAMP as promised.

i hope this gets more visibility!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hilabeans

She's still keeping vet appointment, right?

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Far as I know, but I haven't heard anything yet.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

Far as I know, but I haven't heard anything yet.

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Morning!
Do we know what happened with this little on yet?
Hope all is ok.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maybeka

Morning!
Do we know what happened with this little on yet?
Hope all is ok.

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Hi!
No, I haven't heard anything since yesterday's update

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Hope to hear some good news soon!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slicercrush

Hope to hear some good news soon!

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Ah, well I texted her again. She never updated because the BP died shortly after the update yesterday morning. She never made it to the vet appointment. [emoji22]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

Ah, well I texted her again. She never updated because the BP died shortly after the update yesterday morning. She never made it to the vet appointment. [emoji22]

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:tears: that sucks...does she plan on doing a necropsy? probably not.

tell her someone on the forum is commiserating with her. <3

Oh no! Poor little thing. :tears:

I wonder what happened. Those pictures looked horrible, I thought it must be something very serious as this creature was surely in a lot of misery. I wish your friend would have done a necropsy, but I'm sure that is not happening.

Woah... never seen anything like that! Sorry I was late, I couldn't have helped much though. I too wonder what happened! Gosh...
Tell her if she has any other reptiles to watch them carefully! Sounds like something internal to me but you never know.
Tell her we're sorry for her loss :( I don't wanna think about that pain the snake was in though. He's in a better place.

I hate to say this, but I expected as much. I'm SO sorry for your friend's loss though...I too hope she has a necropsy done, ESPECIALLY IF she plans on getting another?
Because IF this was something contagious, she surely wouldn't want to go thru this again. If she doesn't do a necropsy but wants another reptile, honestly she should
wait a year & thoroughly disinfect, & disinfect again, and then again. OK? Poor little snake...:( And she might want to be talking to whoever she got that snake from?

If the place she got the snake from is truly a reputable store, they will want & NEED to know this happened. Please consider the bigger picture on this. They most likely
don't breed their own snakes to sell, but buy them from others & just re-sell them. It's entirely possible they need to re-consider their sources.

Rest in Peace, sweet little royal...:tears:

Oh man, sorry to hear this. Rest in peace, lil snake...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asherah

Ah, well I texted her again. She never updated because the BP died shortly after the update yesterday morning. She never made it to the vet appointment. [emoji22]

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Awww, i'm so sorry. Not what we all wanted to hear.

I'll convey everyone's sympathy.

She didn't buy the snake from a store, she bought from a local hobbiest who occasionally produces a clutch. I will be sure they are informed so they can keep and eye on their collection, just in case.
I suggested a necropsy as well, but I don't know that she will. They have a large family and that was their only pet snake.

It's a really sad situation. She (the snakes name was freya) had seemed to be doing well and was eating and growing normally. The issue, like with many reptiles, was very bad before she realized there was something wrong. She did try everything she could once she realized there was a problem. Sorry to see this outcome.

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