Shopping list for a colubrid enclosure?

Can I get some help making a shopping list for an enclosure for my first snake? I'm planning to get a gopher snake but that may not pan out because of space, in which case I'll likely be getting a corn. I'd like to get a PVC cage from Herp Houses, and they said they can help install accessories if I bring them when I come to pick up the cage. This being my very first time with reptiles, I'm still uncertain what specific products I should get. It'd be great if anyone with colubrid experience can help me out with this?

So I do know that I need:

- an RHP - I have no idea what wattage/size to get for a gopher or corn. I guess it's hard to determine at this point, when I'm not 100% sure what size cage I'm getting.
- some form of under tank heating - am I understanding correctly that Flexwatt is the common method for PVC cages?
- thermostat - for a North American colubrid, would a simpler one that's not a Herpstat be sufficient?
- lights - what's everyone's preferred way of lighting PVC cages? So far I've read that you can just glue or silicone LED strips on.

Am I forgetting anything?

Also, I'm still having trouble with exactly what size cage I should get, if I go for the corn. Herp Houses offers 24x24x12, 24x24x16, 48x24x12 and 48x24x16. Would a corn require one of the larger ones? I'm frustrated that there doesn't seem to be a 36' cage available from Canadian companies. Honestly if the cage size gives me problems I might end up going for an even smaller snake, like the hognose...

I've been primarily keeping colubrids for a long while & I greatly prefer glass tanks w/ screen tops: that's what I'd recommend you use for the kind of snake you're planning on. For one thing, colubrids need well-circulated fresh air & lower humidity than the boas & ball pythons do. Unless those making PVC cages are making them with colubrids in mind, which I doubt. You do NOT need an RHP + UTH....unless your house is really cold??? I see you're in Canada, what is the ambient room temperature where your cage will be? For comparison, my house thermostat is set to 70* in winter, & to 80* in summer. All my snakes have UTH & a few have black or red heat-lights* (on dimmers) for extra heat- but not any of my corn snakes. *In cool months I use dimmed warming lights for my little Aussie spotted python- she loves to bask, as do my Florida rat snakes & Trans Pecos rat snakes. In summer, the UTH is dimmed way down or even turned off for some.

I use only UTH (controlled Flexwatt), & the size depends on the cage size & how much warmth the snake needs...it's never more than 1/3 of the cage floor, & typically less than that.If you plan to buy only one cage for the life of the snake, a corn snake does nicely in a 40 gal. tank (18"w x 36"long x 17" tall), whereas a gopher snake gets bigger, is more active & is also more terrestrial than a corn snake, so a 50-60 gal. tank would be ideal. Corn snakes love branches, if you wedge them in their cage diagonally, they'll use them happily. If you wire a basket onto the branches, they usually regard it much the same way we would a hammock, lol. If you need more humidity for a corn snake, they use & love a "humid-hide" with damp sphagnum moss.

Most snakes do not appreciate bright lights...too much will stress them. BTW, I actually have used a couple of professionally made plastic cages in the past. (HDPE plastic -Prolines from Constrictors Northwest) One issue with plastic cages is that prolonged use of UTH will warp the bottoms just a bit. But mostly I didn't care for the poor air circulation & lack of visibility. I realize that for humidity & heat, most boa & python keepers prefer plastic cages, but there's more than one way to do things, especially for different species.

BTW, when my house is at 70*, my corn snakes can mostly be found in the unheated areas of their cages, using the UTH only sporadically, like after feeding. The temperatures they seem to prefer closely approximate what we are comfortable with, about 70* or a little higher, with access to UTH when they see fit. So even if you go ahead with a PVC cage, make sure you aren't over-heating them. Corns are wonderful pets: docile, nice size, pretty, & for a 'bonus', among the easiest to keep. I've kept (& bred) gopher & bull snakes, I enjoy them too, but if you're short on space, a corn snake is the better choice between them.

You might also consider an Australian spotted python- they stay smaller than most corn snakes, and would probably do OK in a plastic cage, as they do need more warmth & humidity.I've only known the one I have, an unwanted rescue...she is "all python" (really feisty about food, easy to feed on f/t too) but docile to handle. Very alert & likes to bask on branches at night.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I've been primarily keeping colubrids for a long while & I greatly prefer glass tanks w/ screen tops: that's what I'd recommend you use for the kind of snake you're planning on. For one thing, colubrids need well-circulated fresh air & lower humidity than the boas & ball pythons do. Unless those making PVC cages are making them with colubrids in mind, which I doubt.

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It didn't really cross my mind that glass could actually be better for colubrids than PVC. I was thinking PVC partly because of the aesthetic and partly because they seem a lot more secure. If glass tanks are markedly superior for colubrids, I'd be happy to go with that. I mean, it seems a lot easier to do than setting up a PVC, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

You do NOT need an RHP + UTH....unless your house is really cold??? I see you're in Canada, what is the ambient room temperature where your cage will be? For comparison, my house thermostat is set to 70* in winter, & to 80* in summer. All my snakes have UTH & a few have black or red heat-lights* (on dimmers) for extra heat- but not any of my corn snakes. *In cool months I use dimmed warming lights for my little Aussie spotted python- she loves to bask, as do my Florida rat snakes & Trans Pecos rat snakes. In summer, the UTH is dimmed way down or even turned off for some.

I use only UTH (controlled Flexwatt), & the size depends on the cage size & how much warmth the snake needs...it's never more than 1/3 of the cage floor, & typically less than that.If you plan to buy only one cage for the life of the snake, a corn snake does nicely in a 40 gal. tank (18"w x 36"long x 17" tall), whereas a gopher snake gets bigger, is more active & is also more terrestrial than a corn snake, so a 50-60 gal. tank would be ideal. Corn snakes love branches, if you wedge them in their cage diagonally, they'll use them happily. If you wire a basket onto the branches, they usually regard it much the same way we would a hammock, lol. If you need more humidity for a corn snake, they use & love a "humid-hide" with damp sphagnum moss.

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I'm moving into a new place in a month so I don't know any exact temperatures yet, but I don't think I'd keep things much different from your temps - so it sounds like your setup will work well for me!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Most snakes do not appreciate bright lights...too much will stress them. BTW, I actually have used a couple of professionally made plastic cages in the past. (HDPE plastic -Prolines from Constrictors Northwest) One issue with plastic cages is that prolonged use of UTH will warp the bottoms just a bit. But mostly I didn't care for the poor air circulation & lack of visibility. I realize that for humidity & heat, most boa & python keepers prefer plastic cages, but there's more than one way to do things, especially for different species.

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Yeah, I'm only considering adding minimal lights if I get a PVC cage - which is another point in favour of a glass tank, I guess. I've seen so much praise for PVC cages and few recommendations for glass, so I just assumed most people go for PVC unless they aren't aware of them or don't want to spend so much.

Thanks for all this info, it's really hugely helpful! The gopher was my top choice because their heft appealed to me, but I might not have as much space as I'd thought. I'd be more than happy to go with a corn - I've come across Australian pythons in my research too, and they sound great but a corn will be a lot easier for me to acquire. I'm keeping my options open until I move and have a more solid idea of what I can manage in terms of size.

Great! I almost hesitated to chime in about glass tanks, because I know how it is on forums like this. (I've been around a long time, lol) People talk up plastic cages & you can easily get the impression that's what you need, even for vastly different species. Many also like plastic cages (& racks) to save space: you can stack plastic cages, but not tanks.I prefer being able to see easily into my cages (to see what's "going on" & also to appreciate the beautiful creatures I live with)...it's harder to do that with plastic cages.

When you use UTH it must be regulated (either with a thermostat or rheostat) for safety. If you are using a glass tank on a solid wood cabinet of some kind, the best way to set it up is to use some rubber weatherstripping (comes in a roll with peel-off backing, any hardware store carries it) on the bottom edges of the tank, leaving a few spaces (about 1.5") on opposite ends for a little air flow. (UTH instructions usually tell you they need to "breathe"). Also, you can help protect the wood furniture by putting some thin tile under the tank where the UTH is.

One reason I prefer glass (even though heavier than plastic) is that glass doesn't scratch (even paper towels will scratch up the clear plastic doors in time), and those tiny surface scratches in plastic (even when you don't see them on the non-clear parts of the cage) can make it hard to remove stains, urates, & pathogens. Plastic doesn't hold in heat any better than glass, it all comes down to restricting the air circulation. And it's easy to make glass more private for the snake, or attractive, by adding scenic backgrounds (to back & sides if you want) and you can insulate* glass too, if needed. (*with corrugated cardboard, foam board, carpet tiles, cork, etc) BTW, the PVC cages also give off a plastic smell that I suspect is not healthy, especially for a snake that's enclosed 24/7 breathing it. When I tried those plastic Proline cages, I was always scraping my arm too, when I had to clean the cage & reach all the way in thru the somewhat narrow doors...ugh!

You can buy screen tops or make your own, as I've done for years. They sell clips for the store-bought cage lids but I've never seen any that I trust. If you need any suggestions for making your own tops (& making them escape-proof), let me know. I don't know about where you are, but here, you can also buy tanks with sliding screen tops installed. They use actual 'screen' (like they use on windows, which sags in time), whereas I make my cage tops with 1/4" "hardware cloth" (aka welded wire)- it's much sturdier.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Great! I almost hesitated to chime in about glass tanks, because I know how it is on forums like this. (I've been around a long time, lol) People talk up plastic cages & you can easily get the impression that's what you need, even for vastly different species. Many also like plastic cages (& racks) to save space: you can stack plastic cages, but not tanks.I prefer being able to see easily into my cages (to see what's "going on" & also to appreciate the beautiful creatures I live with)...it's harder to do that with plastic cages.

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I'm really glad you did! That's exactly what happened with me, lol. It was good to hear about possible downsides of PVC, it's making my decision-making process a bit easier. Thanks for the other glass tank advice, too.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

You can buy screen tops or make your own, as I've done for years. They sell clips for the store-bought cage lids but I've never seen any that I trust. If you need any suggestions for making your own tops (& making them escape-proof), let me know. I don't know about where you are, but here, you can also buy tanks with sliding screen tops installed. They use actual 'screen' (like they use on windows, which sags in time), whereas I make my cage tops with 1/4" "hardware cloth" (aka welded wire)- it's much sturdier.

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I'd love some tips, actually - the security aspect is one of the main things that put me off glass tanks in the beginning. So is some modification or extra work pretty much mandatory to properly secure glass enclosures? I have no DIY skills/experience but I'm willing to try for my future snake :D

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Originally Posted by caravaggiooo

i'd love some tips, actually - the security aspect is one of the main things that put me off glass tanks in the beginning. So is some modification or extra work pretty much mandatory to properly secure glass enclosures? I have no DIY skills/experience but I'm willing to try for my future snake :D

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Our BPs are still in glass tanks, and we use different sized tiles (the kind you get at a home improvement store) to weight the lids down. I've also heard of people using Velcro.

If you're running a glass tank, use exo Terra.

I'm really tired, but tomorrow I'll answer your post with what I've been doing for over a decade with colubrids.

You don't have to be a great "handyman" (or in my case, handy-woman) to make your own cage lids. If you can measure & give said measurements to the hardware store, they'll cut it for you too...I trust you can hammer a few nails? I now actually have a jig-saw but I didn't at first. You'll want 1"x 2" or 1" x 3" pine, 2 pieces about 1/8th" longer than the length of your tank (for ease), and 2 pieces that = (the length of the width of your cage + twice the width of the wood pieces* + 1/8th" for ease). *hint: 1" x 2" lumber is actuallysmaller than that...you're paying for the piece size before they milled it smooth for you. You don't want the rough stuff. So the wood pieces are actually about .75" thick, not an inch, and 2" is actually about 1.5" or so. So measure carefully before you
ask for cuts, plan it on paper & re-check on the cage itself. ;) (as the saying goes, "measure twice, cut once")

Then you want something called "screen molding" (it's pine wood too). Once you make a rectangle out of the 1x2 (or 1x3) wood, you'll cut a piece of "hardware cloth" (aka welded wire, 1/4" holes) and staple it to the frame so that no rough wires poke out beyond the wood, and over that, you'll nail on the "screen molding". If you want to be fancy, the wood pieces can be stained and or just sealed (polyurethane or water-sealant) too, before you assemble the top. And, if you keep a snake that's prone to nose rubbing, you should use 2 layers of screening: one layer of hardware cloth (which tends to be rough, but is very sturdy), and a layer of vinyl window screen for the inside. (you'll need special shears to cut the hardware cloth too, they can show you at any hardware store, or they might do it for you if you can look a little but helpless, lol)

If the prospect of doing this yourself scares you off, you can hire a handyman to do it for you...but it's truly simple. I've lost count how many tank lids I've built over the years, & when you keep as many animals as I have, it's a money-saving skill worth having. But it's not 'rocket science'...

If you're still with me, I'll continue later to explain how to lock the tops on (other than just weighing them down, lol...which works but isn't ideal, too many ways to fail).

***What will you be putting a tank on? Wood furniture of some kind?***

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Originally Posted by WhompingWillow

.... I've also heard of people using Velcro.

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I've tried that too, when using an over-priced all-metal screen lid on a tank; I cut two nylon straps* (sturdy stuff like a dog leash), & used velcro pieces on either end of the strap and on the corresponding places on the top of the tank. Still prefer my own home-made wood/screen tops though, and around here, Petco sells a small metal screen top for about $20, which I find absurd.

*nylon straps will unravel when cut...you need to take a match & carefully melt the ends, then they'll 'behave'.

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Originally Posted by caravaggiooo

Can I get some help making a shopping list for an enclosure for my first snake? I'm planning to get a gopher snake but that may not pan out because of space, in which case I'll likely be getting a corn. I'd like to get a PVC cage from Herp Houses, and they said they can help install accessories if I bring them when I come to pick up the cage. This being my very first time with reptiles, I'm still uncertain what specific products I should get. It'd be great if anyone with colubrid experience can help me out with this?

So I do know that I need:

- an RHP - I have no idea what wattage/size to get for a gopher or corn. I guess it's hard to determine at this point, when I'm not 100% sure what size cage I'm getting.
- some form of under tank heating - am I understanding correctly that Flexwatt is the common method for PVC cages?
- thermostat - for a North American colubrid, would a simpler one that's not a Herpstat be sufficient?
- lights - what's everyone's preferred way of lighting PVC cages? So far I've read that you can just glue or silicone LED strips on.

Am I forgetting anything?

Also, I'm still having trouble with exactly what size cage I should get, if I go for the corn. Herp Houses offers 24x24x12, 24x24x16, 48x24x12 and 48x24x16. Would a corn require one of the larger ones? I'm frustrated that there doesn't seem to be a 36' cage available from Canadian companies. Honestly if the cage size gives me problems I might end up going for an even smaller snake, like the hognose...

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1.) RHP are great, size and wattage varies depending on your enclosure size. If you want a RHP I wouldn't recommend using anythin other than a PVC enclosure and at that point you shouldn't need to use any type of under tank heating. I'm sure you could rig an RHP to a screen top, but I wouldn't do it. I prefer to make sure things get done right so you don't have issues, but that's me.

2.) A thermostat is a must have for anything heat related. I prefer Herpstat by Spyder Robotics. I've never had any issues, and they have great customer service. They have cheaper thermostats available, but you get what you pay for. When the cheaper thermostats fail, they often get stuck full blast, so your heating will get as hot as it can which can kill an animal. Herpstats and your other ones have fail safes where they will cut the power, they don't get stuck wide open which is why they're recommended and used by anybody that's been in the hobby.

3.) You can light PVC cages with LED lighting, or you can use a flourescent, whatever you choose I would put it on a 12 hour cycle, so they get 12 hours of light, 12 hours of dark. Now if you can and I would recommend this based on my own observations in keeping colubrids, use a UVB light. I've noticed color shifts and behavior changes from using UVB and not. You just need to make sure that the snake can't get to the bulb as they do get hot. Most of the fixtures should come with the bulb covering.

I would get two identical hides, depending on the size they are and they get, you can use the exo terra caves which I like, or you can use the black reptile basic hides.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

***What will you be putting a tank on? Wood furniture of some kind?***

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I'm not sure yet, I'll be setting this up after moving to a new place - so knowing what kind of furniture is better in advance could be useful! Should I go for wood furniture or something else?

I think I could follow along your steps for making a lid and it looks doable :) And yes, I'd love to hear more about your security measures, too.

As a side note, I've almost fully settled on getting a hognose, rather than a gopher as I'd planned initially (mostly because of size, but I'm really starting to see the appeal in hoggies!). I just talked to a hognose breeder today and he recommended PVC... I'm hesitating again because a small hoggie-sized PVC is a lot more financially viable for me. But if hognosess prefer drier enclosures, wouldn't glass be better suited to them? Gah, I'm having such a hard time deciding between glass and PVC, I can really see the merits in both.

(then again, there's a good chance I'll be getting a young hoggie and starting with a tub, so more time to decide on the adult cage)

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Originally Posted by Neal

If you're running a glass tank, use exo Terra.

I'm really tired, but tomorrow I'll answer your post with what I've been doing for over a decade with colubrids.

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For Exo Terra, I just want to confirm these are the ones you're referring to? http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products...ium_medium.php I like the look of them, they seem convenient and I like that they're actually geared towards reptile keeping (like, not just a fish tank), and the number of size options is great. What height tank do you use for your colubrids? Thanks for your longer post, too :)

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Originally Posted by caravaggiooo

For Exo Terra, I just want to confirm these are the ones you're referring to? http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products...ium_medium.php I like the look of them, they seem convenient and I like that they're actually geared towards reptile keeping (like, not just a fish tank), and the number of size options is great. What height tank do you use for your colubrids? Thanks for your longer post, too :)

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Yes, that's the type I'm referring to. I stick with at least 12 inches, but I personally prefer 18 depending on the species.

http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products...rium_large.php

I was using the 36x18x18 and I've used the 36x18x12. I housed two and three colubrid snakes together(Rufous Beaked Snakes). I wouldn't keep just any snakes together because of cannibalism, but I know from experience with the snakes I have it's fine. I just take them out and feed them in separate enclosures. If you need to raise the humidity then you can cover the other screen sections but overall if you use a glass tank, then exo terra is the only viable option IMO.

If the snakes are smaller, you can just crowd the tank so you're not buying a small tank now then a larger one later. That's what I did.

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Originally Posted by caravaggiooo

Should I go for wood furniture or something else? ....

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Yes...it's hard but not impossible to find furniture made of something else, but if you're using UTH, it's also not recommended for use on metal shelving of any kind.
Wood furniture will add "insulation" to the floor of the cage...meaning heat from UTH goes upward into the cage. As already mentioned, I use some other materials
to help protect the wood also, such as a couple thin ceramic tiles (thick tiles won't fit under the glass with an air gap, and you don't want the glass resting ON them)
A glass tank is designed for & should be resting on the outer framework; I use rubber weatherstripping on the bottom edges & allow a couple air gaps that also allows
the cord (to UTH) to go under tank without the tank sitting ON the cord, which will damage it in time. The weatherstripping also adds safety- the tank won't slide easily.