Live vs frozen/thawed

I've only had my girl a little over a month and the breeder I got her from told me they always fed live, so I've been feeding live. Is there a reason or advantage in one over the other, besides convenience or cost?

The list of advantages for F/T is plentiful, so to keep it short, there are absolutely no advantages, except disadvantages of Live feeders, not a single advantage that could convince someone to switch over.
One common thing you hear with owners who do Live which is totally wrong is, "I want the snake to feel like it's still in the wild, its better for it", they still attack the F/T feeder the same way, so it's no different.

A bad breeder might feed live because it may be easier on them, too cheap to invest in a humane way to kill the mice/rats so they just feed them as is.

Also, you'll find from many veterans on here, they don't believe in a snake that only eats Live or won't eat F/T, every snake can be switched over with time, skill and patience.

Best of luck with your girl.

The short and simple answer to why I feed F/T to my snakes is this: it's safer for the snakes.

There are several reasons, but that's number one.
FACT: Dead mice and rats don't fight back.

Aside from breeding my own mice and rats buying F/T in bulk is far and away the most inexpensive way to go as well.

It's also convenient. Buy prey items, put prey items in freezer, take out what you need. Order more when getting low. Simple and delivered to my door.

I personally love pretty much all animals, mice and rats included. So watching and hearing them die isn't something I want to do. I eat meat, I know where it came from. But at least I didn't have to watch it die. When I buy groceries, I just see food. When I buy F/T prey I just see food. In either scenario, it's food to me at that point and not a living animal.

Anyway, those are the main reasons I feed F/T to my snakes, with safety to the snakes being the most important factor.

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Originally Posted by bhsurf4

I've only had my girl a little over a month and the breeder I got her from told me they always fed live, so I've been feeding live. Is there a reason or advantage in one over the other, besides convenience or cost?

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Some will never eat f/t, some may eat f/t right away and some may switch eventually.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

The list of advantages for F/T is plentiful, so to keep it short, there are absolutely no advantages, except disadvantages of Live feeders, not a single advantage that could convince someone to switch over.
One common thing you hear with owners who do Live which is totally wrong is, "I want the snake to feel like it's still in the wild, its better for it", they still attack the F/T feeder the same way, so it's no different.

A bad breeder might feed live because it may be easier on them, too cheap to invest in a humane way to kill the mice/rats so they just feed them as is.

Also, you'll find from many veterans on here, they don't believe in a snake that only eats Live or won't eat F/T, every snake can be switched over with time, skill and patience.

Best of luck with your girl.

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Now since you're new here I'm going to tell you about tossing around statements like: "A bad breeder might feed live because it may be easier on them, too cheap to invest in a humane way to kill."

You don't need to assume. I will tell you the realistic reason since you don't seem to know or understand. When you have 1000+ snakes, you breed your own rats, as it's cheaper than buying. Thawing out different sizes in random numbers with ball pythons who can be entirely picky would easily take more time than you realize. If you had experience with this in any aspect then you would understand that.

Now look at it this way, they don't have the time to make sure that everything eats, especially when you deal with babies. Sometimes you have to let babies be for a while to let them eat, which means you will check on them later or the next day, depending on what all you have going on. If you did this with frozen thawed then you would have an extremely stinky room. By putting rat pinkies or rat fuzzies you can let them be in there and check later. Also with mouse hoppers the movement triggers a snakes feeding response, so it's not that they're a bad breeder or cheap. It's that they know from experience how to do things. So before you chime in, please try to know what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Some will never eat f/t, some may eat f/t right away and some may switch eventually.


Now since you're new here I'm going to tell you about tossing around statements like: "A bad breeder might feed live because it may be easier on them, too cheap to invest in a humane way to kill."

You don't need to assume. I will tell you the realistic reason since you don't seem to know or understand. When you have 1000+ snakes, you breed your own rats, as it's cheaper than buying. Thawing out different sizes in random numbers with ball pythons who can be entirely picky would easily take more time than you realize. If you had experience with this in any aspect then you would understand that.

Now look at it this way, they don't have the time to make sure that everything eats, especially when you deal with babies. Sometimes you have to let babies be for a while to let them eat, which means you will check on them later or the next day, depending on what all you have going on. If you did this with frozen thawed then you would have an extremely stinky room. By putting rat pinkies or rat fuzzies you can let them be in there and check later. Also with mouse hoppers the movement triggers a snakes feeding response, so it's not that they're a bad breeder or cheap. It's that they know from experience how to do things. So before you chime in, please try to know what you're talking about.

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Well said, Neal.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

The list of advantages for F/T is plentiful, so to keep it short, there are absolutely no advantages, except disadvantages of Live feeders, not a single advantage that could convince someone to switch over.
One common thing you hear with owners who do Live which is totally wrong is, "I want the snake to feel like it's still in the wild, its better for it", they still attack the F/T feeder the same way, so it's no different.

A bad breeder might feed live because it may be easier on them, too cheap to invest in a humane way to kill the mice/rats so they just feed them as is.

Also, you'll find from many veterans on here, they don't believe in a snake that only eats Live or won't eat F/T, every snake can be switched over with time, skill and patience.

Best of luck with your girl.

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Unfortunately, this reply is primarily not true.

For me in my neck of the woods I have at least three places to get f/t' s but even if I wanted to no where to get live feeders so I guess it's the best situation for my location. Also I don't eat meat but understand fully not all life forms can survive and thrive on said diet so I cringe at the idea of hearing something screaming out for its life I would have a Silince of the Lambs moment best wishes in which ever you choose 😊

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Unfortunately, this reply is primarily not true.

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Yea, that pushed the wrong button when I read that.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Yea, that pushed the wrong button when I read that.

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I hear ya. Unfortunately, that's one drawback to public forums. There's no prerequisites in order to post anything you want. Misinformation can be spread so quickly.

That's why I say, probably all too often, always learn from reliable sources and cross reference any info you receive before taking it as true and before putting anything into action.

Abraham Lincoln was once quoted saying "Be careful what you read on the internet, 80% of it simply isn't true."
--------> if Honest Abe said it, it MUST be true.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Some will never eat f/t, some may eat f/t right away and some may switch eventually.


Now since you're new here I'm going to tell you about tossing around statements like: "A bad breeder might feed live because it may be easier on them, too cheap to invest in a humane way to kill."

You don't need to assume. I will tell you the realistic reason since you don't seem to know or understand. When you have 1000+ snakes, you breed your own rats, as it's cheaper than buying. Thawing out different sizes in random numbers with ball pythons who can be entirely picky would easily take more time than you realize. If you had experience with this in any aspect then you would understand that.

Now look at it this way, they don't have the time to make sure that everything eats, especially when you deal with babies. Sometimes you have to let babies be for a while to let them eat, which means you will check on them later or the next day, depending on what all you have going on. If you did this with frozen thawed then you would have an extremely stinky room. By putting rat pinkies or rat fuzzies you can let them be in there and check later. Also with mouse hoppers the movement triggers a snakes feeding response, so it's not that they're a bad breeder or cheap. It's that they know from experience how to do things. So before you chime in, please try to know what you're talking about.

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I find it funny you and Craig are claiming my post is not true, and go on about like I told the person to feed his snake veggies instead. I answered his question, you didn't lol.

BUT my statement clearly stated a BAD breeder MAY do something for a particular reason, you claim I shouldn't assume, yet you went ahead and assumed I said or meant all breeders. You're also ASSUMING that he bought it from a breeder who has a 1000 snakes. Last time I checked in Canada, and I'm going to ASSUME in the US, there are a lot more smaller/personal breeders than the larger breeders/dealers. And not all Breeders are the same.

And then you continue to discuss it as if I now screwed the person over, funny thing about forums is people think they are experts based on how long they've been here for or how many posts.

Yeah I'm going to defend my words and yeah I find the extra comments weren't necessary, the extra information was helpful and gives people another view to look at, but was more of, let me come in here, ignore the main question and just go off about how bad this person's assuming comment was.

So I'm going to stick with my original comment as being useful

The truth about frozen thawed is convenience. Not everyone has access to live rodents of various ages so switching to frozen thawed offers advantages. It means you can order online or got to a pet store and buy quantities of frozen thawed rodents and store them in the freezer and therefore not need to either drive every time to a store to pick up a live rodent or find means to keep live prey for your reptile.

Sometimes however you have to do what is best for your snake. Some snakes do not take frozen thawed as they are either picky eaters or they have never been switched to F/T. You sometimes have to feed live in order to help them grow and gain weight. Sometimes you get lucky and can switch over on your own and in rare circumstances you can't switch.

As larger and larger prey becomes needed, the risk of injury to the snake increases. In a confined space, a snake can't escape a scared and defensive rodent. Time and time again we see the effects of inexperienced keepers letting live prey wreck havoc onto their snake.

If you have the choice with adult rodents, frozen thawed is always better for peace of mind.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

I find it funny you and Craig are claiming my post is not true, and go on about like I told the person to feed his snake veggies instead. I answered his question, you didn't lol.

BUT my statement clearly stated a BAD breeder MAY do something for a particular reason, you claim I shouldn't assume, yet you went ahead and assumed I said or meant all breeders. You're also ASSUMING that he bought it from a breeder who has a 1000 snakes. Last time I checked in Canada, and I'm going to ASSUME in the US, there are a lot more smaller/personal breeders than the larger breeders/dealers. And not all Breeders are the same.

And then you continue to discuss it as if I now screwed the person over, funny thing about forums is people think they are experts based on how long they've been here for or how many posts.

Yeah I'm going to defend my words and yeah I find the extra comments weren't necessary, the extra information was helpful and gives people another view to look at, but was more of, let me come in here, ignore the main question and just go off about how bad this person's assuming comment was.

So I'm going to stick with my original comment as being useful

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I'm not assuming anything about who he bought it from because it's irrelevant to me. Regardless of the size, and the reasons they feed live, it was your statement in general which made me say you don't have a clue as I'll still stand by that statement. I've read some of your other posts which also back my statement. Don't state anything that you don't know, like breeding for example.

I also don't think I'm an expert, and I never claimed to be. I've bred snakes though so I know the benefits of feeding live vs frozen. Also, while I'm not an expert, I still have way more experience than you and I personally know people that still breed snakes. Your whole statement about why people choose live was irrelevant in the first place, so if you want to call anything unnecessary than that was unnecessary.

In the end all you had to say was while the breeder may of fed live, you as a keeper may benefit more from trying to go to frozen.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

I find it funny you and Craig are claiming my post is not true, and go on about like I told the person to feed his snake veggies instead. I answered his question, you didn't lol.

BUT my statement clearly stated a BAD breeder MAY do something for a particular reason, you claim I shouldn't assume, yet you went ahead and assumed I said or meant all breeders. You're also ASSUMING that he bought it from a breeder who has a 1000 snakes. Last time I checked in Canada, and I'm going to ASSUME in the US, there are a lot more smaller/personal breeders than the larger breeders/dealers. And not all Breeders are the same.

And then you continue to discuss it as if I now screwed the person over, funny thing about forums is people think they are experts based on how long they've been here for or how many posts.

Yeah I'm going to defend my words and yeah I find the extra comments weren't necessary, the extra information was helpful and gives people another view to look at, but was more of, let me come in here, ignore the main question and just go off about how bad this person's assuming comment was.

So I'm going to stick with my original comment as being useful

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Actually, if you look at the 2nd reply, I did answer the OPs question.


No need for you to go on the defensive. Nobody said anything about veggies, nobody said anything about screwing anybody over. That's all you. Sometimes, people are wrong. I have been wrong more times than I can count. But I admit my faults and learn from them.

Your first paragraph says "there are absolutely no advantages, except disadvantages of Live feeders, not a single advantage that could convince someone to switch over." That simply isn't true. Let me cite one example for you: a keeper gets a new snake, said snake goes on food strike and begins losing decent weight but still refuses F/T and fresh killed, the keeper offers live prey, the snake eats...yup advantage to feeding live.

You went on to say "One common thing you hear with owners who do Live which is totally wrong is, "I want the snake to feel like it's still in the wild, its better for it", they still attack the F/T feeder the same way, so it's no different.".
A) since around 1999/2000 when I started keeping snakes have never once heard this, not once. So it probably isn't all that common.
B) no, not all snakes still attack the F/T feeder the same way. So you're incorrect there.

Now onto the "bad breeder" thing...there's no end to what a "bad breeder" may do. I have never heard of a breeder feeding live because they are "too cheap to invest in a humane way to kill the mice/rats so they just feed them as is." but I have heard of many breeders who feed live for convenience, but do it safely and are knowledgeable.

You also said "every snake can be switched over with time, skill and patience." I'd love yo hear your experience to back this up...

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you were asking "beginner" and "amateur" (your words, directly from your thread titles) questions in January. On March 29 you started a thread in which the opening line was "So I have no experience with Live Prey" so maybe you're just not experienced enough to answer questions you have no experience with. " funny thing about forums is people think they are experts based on how long they've been here for or how many posts." I don't claim to be an expert, but when I offer advice it's because I'm confident in what I'm saying, have learned it from enough reliable sources and have enough hands on experience to be confident in what I'm saying. When I'm not confident or have no experience i either don't answer the question or I make sure I let people know I have no experience and that I am only sharing what I have read.

Look, I'm not ragging on you, I'm just saying you should graciously accept that some of the info you shared wasn't great advice and move on. Learn from people with more experience and maybe refrain from giving advice here you don't have enough experience...

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Originally Posted by Neal

I'm not assuming anything about who he bought it from because it's irrelevant to me. Regardless of the size, and the reasons they feed live, it was your statement in general which made me say you don't have a clue as I'll still stand by that statement. I've read some of your other posts which also back my statement. Don't state anything that you don't know, like breeding for example.

I also don't think I'm an expert, and I never claimed to be. I've bred snakes though so I know the benefits of feeding live vs frozen. Also, while I'm not an expert, I still have way more experience than you and I personally know people that still breed snakes. Your whole statement about why people choose live was irrelevant in the first place, so if you want to call anything unnecessary than that was unnecessary.

In the end all you had to say was while the breeder may of fed live, you as a keeper may benefit more from trying to go to frozen.

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Good job at continuing not to answer OPs question lol and continue your attacks and trying to put down others' comments instead of just adding and helping out.

I'll tell you when thing that's pretty obvious, you sound arrogant and stubborn. What's funny is you're still wrong, there is no benefit of feeding a snake live, there is only a benefit for a breeder! That wasn't OPs question.

You obviously got offended by my breeder comment, which clearly started with " a BAD breeder may..." You could of simply added your comment and all would of been good. Just because someone is a breeder does not mean they are good to their feeders or even their snakes.

So you may ASSUME you know more, but when someone starts talking like that, you lose my respect.
Stick with your Experience and Knowledge lol I'll stick with respecting others.

And read my other comments on this website, I'll never give advice I'm not sure about, and I'm always up for discussion, different opinions and new knowledge.

Have a nice day.

Basically the Advantages to FT are Safety (free from Rat bites or parasites) , Cost and being able to keep large amounts of Rodents on hand.
I myself do not like the process of FT at all. Nasty I think. Ive also fed Snakes for 30 years Life & Fresh Kill so maybe its the fact you cant teach a old dog new tricks. I have fed FT to mine and it works when I wait several weeks and got them very hungry. Mine will not take them every 7-10 days like they will Life or Fresh kill though.
I use a CO2 chamber, put the Rats to sleep and then feed. Keeps my snakes from getting bit and they eat 95% of the time when offered.
There are several opinions out there. Make sure you read and talk to several experienced people and decide whats best for you and the animal you have. Public Forums are as bad as Facebook Fake News!!



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The first thing is about being educated on your feeding options and know how to feed a snake responsibly regardless of the method you are using.

There are pro and con to both whether it is convenience or cost, not having to go to the store each week etc, one person may find live more convenient than f/t while the other may found f/t more convinient.

I breed snakes which means I started breeding feeders very early own to ensure that I could successfully start my hatchling and always have the right size available.

I have fed well over 25000 live preys in the last decade (likely double that) I also feed F/T (I euthanize and freeze my own feeders).

Feeding live is convenient, with hatchling BP it's really a must, however feeding F/T to some animals allows me to deal with surplus efficiently, and I work with other species that I prefer to feed F/T too also.

The bottom line feed what works for the animals and for you regardless of what other may think or label you as.

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Actually, if you look at the 2nd reply, I did answer the OPs question.


No need for you to go on the defensive. Nobody said anything about veggies, nobody said anything about screwing anybody over. That's all you. Sometimes, people are wrong. I have been wrong more times than I can count. But I admit my faults and learn from them.

Your first paragraph says "there are absolutely no advantages, except disadvantages of Live feeders, not a single advantage that could convince someone to switch over." That simply isn't true. Let me cite one example for you: a keeper gets a new snake, said snake goes on food strike and begins losing decent weight but still refuses F/T and fresh killed, the keeper offers live prey, the snake eats...yup advantage to feeding live.

You went on to say "One common thing you hear with owners who do Live which is totally wrong is, "I want the snake to feel like it's still in the wild, its better for it", they still attack the F/T feeder the same way, so it's no different.".
A) since around 1999/2000 when I started keeping snakes have never once heard this, not once. So it probably isn't all that common.
B) no, not all snakes still attack the F/T feeder the same way. So you're incorrect there.

Now onto the "bad breeder" thing...there's no end to what a "bad breeder" may do. I have never heard of a breeder feeding live because they are "too cheap to invest in a humane way to kill the mice/rats so they just feed them as is." but I have heard of many breeders who feed live for convenience, but do it safely and are knowledgeable.

You also said "every snake can be switched over with time, skill and patience." I'd love yo hear your experience to back this up...

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you were asking "beginner" and "amateur" (your words, directly from your thread titles) questions in January. On March 29 you started a thread in which the opening line was "So I have no experience with Live Prey" so maybe you're just not experienced enough to answer questions you have no experience with. " funny thing about forums is people think they are experts based on how long they've been here for or how many posts." I don't claim to be an expert, but when I offer advice it's because I'm confident in what I'm saying, have learned it from enough reliable sources and have enough hands on experience to be confident in what I'm saying. When I'm not confident or have no experience i either don't answer the question or I make sure I let people know I have no experience and that I am only sharing what I have read.

Look, I'm not ragging on you, I'm just saying you should graciously accept that some of the info you shared wasn't great advice and move on. Learn from people with more experience and maybe refrain from giving advice here you don't have enough experience...

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Excellent response Craig. Very respectful and good information.
I dont want anyone to feel less valuable here than others however Im not knowledgeable about a lot of things and I just zip it. I enjoy learning new crap and refrain from giving advice in certain areas. Ive had Pythons for 30 years this spring and you will NEVER see me in certain threads. I know nothing about breeding unless you want to go to the quarantine room and discuss human interactions [emoji4] ....i know nothing about Hots, Arboreal snakes, colubrids etc... So I just leave it alone...

I don't believe anyone was stomping on your reply however your reply was spoken as facts. I'm sorry but it was 90% incorrect, wasn't even stated as opinion.


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I'll start again by thanking all of you for your info. I'm sorry it turned into what it has turned into, but, although I'm new to this forum, I've been on several forums so I would be more shocked if it didn't evolve into something like it did. To quote the great Mr. King, "CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?" (OK, it's Rodney not Martin Luther but technically it's still Mr. King!"). I am fortunate to have a fantastic locally owned pet store that specializes in reptiles less than a mile from my front door so live and f/t are just as convenient As for cost, right now I have one snake and a couple dollars a week is not an issue. Safety wise, I've got a long pair of forceps (think that's what they're called) that I use to hold the tail of the mouse when I feed. I don't just drop it in there. She's on adult mice now, I feed every 4th or 5th day. She's never refused a meal and is growing FAST! I am gonna try a small rat really soon. I just wanted to know all the advantages and disadvantages in my husbandry because I love animals and would hate to think that I've taken the responsibility of snake ownership but aren't willing to do what's best for her health and safety.

I think Deborah pretty much ended this discussion. You feed a snake what you need to feed a snake to keep it thriving. That is all. If you are lucky to be able to switch to F/T they do so. For a small scale hobbyist F/T is far more convenient. I thank my lucky stars all my snakes feed F/T but if they didn't I would be buying live even if it meant I had to drive miles to get stock.

I also have to say that it's ignorance on the part of snake owners to not buy a snake from a location or a breeder where you know their feeding preference. If you don't want to feed live, don't buy a snake that only eats live. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by bhsurf4

I'll start again by thanking all of you for your info. I'm sorry it turned into what it has turned into, but, although I'm new to this forum, I've been on several forums so I would be more shocked if it didn't evolve into something like it did..... I just wanted to know all the advantages and disadvantages in my husbandry because I love animals and would hate to think that I've taken the responsibility of snake ownership but aren't willing to do what's best for her health and safety.

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well, for some reason the FT vs live discussion, no matter how innocently started, always seems to take a turn for the worse on this forum. Just consider Deborah's reply to be the final word on this topic.

Never discuss politics, religion, or live feeding. :rofl:

Or petsmart/petco, reptile substrate, lighting, or how often you should take your snake out for a walk on a leash!

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Originally Posted by bhsurf4

I'll start again by thanking all of you for your info. I'm sorry it turned into what it has turned into, but, although I'm new to this forum, I've been on several forums so I would be more shocked if it didn't evolve into something like it did. To quote the great Mr. King, "CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?" (OK, it's Rodney not Martin Luther but technically it's still Mr. King!"). I am fortunate to have a fantastic locally owned pet store that specializes in reptiles less than a mile from my front door so live and f/t are just as convenient As for cost, right now I have one snake and a couple dollars a week is not an issue. Safety wise, I've got a long pair of forceps (think that's what they're called) that I use to hold the tail of the mouse when I feed. I don't just drop it in there. She's on adult mice now, I feed every 4th or 5th day. She's never refused a meal and is growing FAST! I am gonna try a small rat really soon. I just wanted to know all the advantages and disadvantages in my husbandry because I love animals and would hate to think that I've taken the responsibility of snake ownership but aren't willing to do what's best for her health and safety.

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You're fine, we all enjoy helping. Just do what you have to in order to get your snake to eat. You may be able to switch him to frozen your first try, or he may not switch right away or even at all. You can try though, and things you can do make it more enticing for your snake. An example is instead of holding it by the tail with the forceps, get it behind the shoulder blades and have it's nose close to the BP, I've noticed this entices them a lot more.

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Originally Posted by SDA

Or petsmart/petco, reptile substrate, lighting, or how often you should take your snake out for a walk on a leash!

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Let's get back on subject now.

Subject ended with Deborah speaking the truth. Nothing really left to say.

I have done both, pros and cons to both depending on individual circumstances.
Less than 20 snakes: frozen, i can buy in bulk and store them for months.
Breeder level/More than 20 snakes: I’m breeding my own and feeding live.

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Originally Posted by Hamsnacks

A bad breeder might feed live because it may be easier on them, too cheap to invest in a humane way to kill the mice/rats so they just feed them as is.

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You evidently dont know the amount of work it takes to keep and care for several hundred rats. The truth is frozen is easier amd more convenient to the keeper.

Before I got rid of my rats, my snakes ate weekly and almost never missed a meal. About a year ago I decided I wanted my personal time back on the weekends. ***YES I spent most of the weekends cleaning tubs and racks. Not to mention the twice a day checking on them for food, water and dirty tubs.*** Since the trying to switch, I have taken time off of breeding them because they are hit and miss on feeding on f/t. The big girls are not putting on weight as fast.
Due to all of this I have been contemplating downsizing my collection.
I removed the stress of the rodents from my life and now the snakes are almost as much of a stress getting them to eat on some type of regular schedule.
I have always told people to feed them what they will eat and almost feel like a hypocrite now......
In my case switching to frozen has taken the fun out of the breeding hobby for me.

I was just able to get my big pastel, Pandora, to take her first meal in 5 months, a small live rat. She was pounding f/t medium rats for 6 months before she decided to go on a diet, and refused to eat them no matter what I tried. I plan on breeding her, so I really wanted to get her to stop losing weight and start gaining. I know that she has been hungry for the last few weeks because she has been coming out of her hide earlier and earlier in the evening. In the end, alive rat broke her fast, and while I'm hoping that she will go back to frozen after getting a meal in her, it required a live rat to do it, and if need be I'll feed her more.

I perfer frozen mainly because its easier to have a consistent size on hand and i get a better deal buying 100 frozen rats vs 9 live rats for the week as i dont plan on breeding my own rats. Also they dont harm the snake. 7 out of the 9 snakes i currently own started on live all transitioned great expect for my Fire pastel she didnt eat for a month and a half then i finally figured her out she doesnt like to be watched i have to set the hot rat in there and leave it thats the only way she will take FT.