Disorientation and Lack of Appetite??

Hi! This is my first post on the forum so bear with me.

My fire ball python is about a year old and has been with me for 7 or 8 months and is showing some signs that are a bit concerning. When I took him out today, he seemed very disoriented. Usually he's still for the first few minutes after taking him out of the tank and then after that he perks up. Today his body was very limp and his head was being held at an odd angle. He's also been pushing his nose up on things while slithering to almost try to push them (?) to the point where he is lifting his lips. He's never done this before either. He also now hasn't eaten or defecated for two weeks.

Husbandry Info:
When we first got him, he didn't eat for a few weeks (normal, no worries there) and has been a consistent eater ever since. He's been on F/T weaned up until two weeks ago when he took his first F/T small rat. The past two weeks he hasn't eaten, he seemed interested at first but just slithered away.
His temps are 93.5 F on the hot spot, 78 on the cool side, and 81 ambient. Humidity has been consistently at 55. He's in a glass tank with paper towel as substrate and multiple hides and a large water bowl.
We have two other snakes, a 1.5 year old rainbow boa and a 8-9 month old rainbow boa. They are all housed separately.

I know IBD as a diagnosis is thrown around a bunch and I'm wondering if that's possible or probable in this case. :( I have a vet appointment in a week.

Hi! This is my first post on the forum so bear with me.

My fire ball python is about a year old and has been with me for 7 or 8 months and is showing some signs that are a bit concerning. When I took him out today, he seemed very disoriented. Usually he's still for the first few minutes after taking him out of the tank and then after that he perks up. Today his body was very limp and his head was being held at an odd angle. He's also been pushing his nose up on things while slithering to almost try to push them (?) to the point where he is lifting his lips. He's never done this before either. He also now hasn't eaten or defecated for two weeks.

Husbandry Info:
When we first got him, he didn't eat for a few weeks (normal, no worries there) and has been a consistent eater ever since. He's been on F/T weaned up until two weeks ago when he took his first F/T small rat. The past two weeks he hasn't eaten, he seemed interested at first but just slithered away.
His temps are 93.5 F on the hot spot, 78 on the cool side, and 81 ambient. Humidity has been consistently at 55. He's in a glass tank with paper towel as substrate and multiple hides and a large water bowl.
We have two other snakes, a 1.5 year old rainbow boa and a 8-9 month old rainbow boa. They are all housed separately.

I know IBD as a diagnosis is thrown around a bunch and I'm wondering if that's possible or probable in this case. :( I have a vet appointment in a week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LindseyVail

I know IBD as a diagnosis is thrown around a bunch...

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Usually by people who are clueless as a LOT of other conditions mimic it.

I would suggest lowering your hot side temp just a tad. Also how are you maintaining humidity?

I agree w dropping the hot...

how is he usually when handled ?

does he move does he act totally different than this?

are you seeing these actions in his tank
as well?

Sorry to hear about your sick snake. When I hear of 'disorientation' the first thing I suspect is something toxic. Have you recently sprayed any ant killer / bug killer / plant spray in the house? Are there any toxic fumes, gasoline, strong cleaners, etc...? I used to try to keep pet tarantulas at work and they kept dying. I suspect it was the facility guy spraying bug killer around the building on a regular basis that did them in.

When was the last time he shed?

I have a large humidifier in the room that runs and helps with all the tanks.

Here are some images. He is usually pretty active when I take him out of the tank and when he's in his tank he's usually curled up in a hide. Last night he was stretched out across the whole tank and didn't move at all throughout the night. https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...pside_down.pnghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...neck_kink2.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...neck_kink1.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...fez_in_air.jpg

No new disinfectants. And his last shed was about 3-4 weeks ago. I've attached some images of his behavior this morning. https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...fez_in_air.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...neck_kink1.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...neck_kink2.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...pside_down.png

Not an expert but I would vet today if was me.

There's a variety of things that can cause neurological symptoms - IBD is not the only one and it's impossible to determine what it is from the external symptoms alone. However, anything causing neurological symptoms may well be urgent. Move up your vet appointment if you can. I hope he does better!

We took him to urgent care about an hour ago. They're doing blood work as well as a test for IBD, however they don't seem to know too much about snakes. Anything I should ask them specifically to look for in blood work? They are also giving us antibiotics for bacterial meningitis as well.

Fingers crossed and sending best wishes to you and your snake.

To add an update: I got a blood test at the Urgent Care today. Photos are attached. We were told that calcium, phosphorus, and potassium levels were high. We were not told exactly how to interpret this and it seems neither did the UC vets because they weren't exotic specialists. Any insights would be very much appreciated. https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...oodlevels2.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...oodlevels1.jpg

To me: The pictures and positioning look like mild heat stroke.
(If it was: It would go away within a few weeks)

Other possibilities I would consider: Neuro complex, Sinus Infection, Cryptosporidiosis, and IBD.

Let us know what the Vet thinks.

https://en.wikivet.net/Lizard_and_Snake_Biochemistry

Here is a website I found googling "high calcium in blood snakes". From skimming it, it looks like it may be kiddy-related (renal).

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If they could do a Complete Blood Count that would be a good indicator as to whether there was an infection. They may not specialize in reptiles but I'm sure they could easily find the reference values for a healthy snake.

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http://www.anapsid.org/hypercal.html

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2009533...n_tab_contents

A couple more resources I found. The jstor one seems especially useful.

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Sounds like kidney failure.... maybe caused by severe dehydration.

Any update? Any snake I've seen lay like that is on its way out & to far gone :(



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Talked to an exotics vet yesterday. We got an xray to look for any calcification of kidneys or signs of bacterial infection in the bone. Nothing showed up besides constipation. Vet says that the hypercalcemia and the neurological issues are separate problems i guess. Right now we are on a regimen of warm baths twice a day (for defecation and rehydration) and antibiotics for possible bacterial meningitis. Waiting on the results of the IBD blood test. As of now our snake hasn't gotten any worse, but hasn't gotten any better. Will continue updating.

Neurological signs right now are individual eye movements (one eye is consistently looking down and sideways), not trying to flip himself over when put upside-down, and not moving his back half much when is tail is held. However, if you kind of scratch/tickle his back near his tail he does definitely react and move. One behavior that I don't know how to interpret is that when he is in the bath, he's tried to chew on the towel we use to keep his head elevated above water. When we lift his head up to avoid him getting his mouth snagged anywhere, he continues to adjust his jaw, or at least seemingly so.

According to the vet the main differential right now is IBD. I have two boas (kept separately) in the same room but moved the sick boy to the other side to try to get as much separation as possible. We haven't handled them at all and don't plan on it until we know more about what is going on. The only interactions we've had with them is spraying the terrariums and changing water, all after copious amounts of hand sanitizer and latex gloves.

Any comments/questions/ideas/suggestions are appreciated. Will keep updated as we go.

Hate to say this, but at this point considering the myriad of issues I would recommend euthenizing the poor snake. You could wait to see if the antibiotics help at all, but it sounds like quality of life isn't really there at this point.

Does her urate smell really bad/strong? I lost a boa to kidney & liver cancer last year and while she never displayed the neuro symptoms, one of the symptoms of failing kideys is that her pee smells really strong.

We didn't diagnose the cancer before she died, I had a necropsy done to rule out a viral disease. While I was devastated to lose her - she was my first boa - at least I knew she didn't have anything contagious.

No urate since he's gotten sick. And I am a full supporter of putting quality of life above all. I hate to say this because I like to think optimistically, but euthanization isn't out of the question. We'll see how the IBD results come back and/or if the antibiotics have any effect and take it from there. :(

Thank you so much. I'm hoping it's just mild heat stroke. The vet is thinking it is either bacterial meningitis or IBD as the main differential. I will bring up the other ideas to them. As an update: snake has gotten mildly worse.

Arenavirus (IBD) viral test came back negative. The next way to try to more accurately diagnose IBD is with a biopsy of the esophagus, but that is difficult for any snake under 4 pounds. Next course of action is to finish the antibiotics and hope for improvement.

For reference: the IBD blood test has a 20% chance of a false negative.

Arenavirus (IBD) viral test came back negative. The next way to try to more accurately diagnose IBD is with a biopsy of the esophagus, but that is difficult for any snake under 4 pounds. Next course of action is to finish the antibiotics and hope for improvement.

For reference: the IBD blood test has a 20% chance of a false negative.

In response to earlier suggestions, I asked the vet and this is what they said: "except for the neuro complex (which IBD is), none of the other would cause these signs. There is no history of heat stroke, and if it was a mild heat stroke he should be improving. A severe heat stroke would kill him in a few hours. Sinus infections would not cause neurological signs and cryptosporidium affects GI tract and causes weight loss."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LindseyVail

Arenavirus (IBD) viral test came back negative. The next way to try to more accurately diagnose IBD is with a biopsy of the esophagus, but that is difficult for any snake under 4 pounds. Next course of action is to finish the antibiotics and hope for improvement.

For reference: the IBD blood test has a 20% chance of a false negative.

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Thanks for the update! Keep us posted, we're rooting for you both.

Admin Note: The two threads with the same subject line about this topic have been merged together into one thread so that the discussion is all in one place.

Update on the lil sick snake: still bathing twice daily and administering antibiotics. He's acting the same, however, when put on his back he can flip himself over! Still no defecation. One symptom that's gotten slightly worse over time is when bathing, he is constantly adjusting his jaw. Any comments/input/questions are welcomed and very much appreciated.