Disabled Snake

I am re-posting this under a new heading per the advice from another member (thank you)

Back story is Mia, a snake we purchased at Petsmart (i know i know) having issues eating. Has not eaten one time in the month we've had her and losing a little weight. She is 102g.

We contacted a breeder (not the one who bred and sent to Petsmart, totally outside breeder) and he came to our house and gave her a good checkup. He informed us that she was having issues with her tongue.

We took Mia to the vet yesterday. The vet said she really did look pretty healthy. Nothing wrong with her mouth, no mouth infection or anything but she does have a deformed tongue. Her tongue is there but it is very short and does not come to the end of her mouth and it does not have forks at the end. Birth defect, accident…. Who knows why it happened. He could not give us a definitive answer on if she will learn to eat on her own or not. (I wanted a yes/no but understand that he can’t predict the future) He said right now its ok to keep assist feeding her but only for the next couple of meals. Then he wants to see if she can feed herself. He did say that if she can never feed herself due to her tongue, that assist feeding an adult python would be a bit harder than assist feeding her now and may be better done by someone with more experience. So we are going to give her at least a month. If she does not eat on her own in a month Dr. says we have 3 choices: 1. Assist feed for Mia’s whole life. 2. Give her to a rescue or someone who is willing to take on a snake with physical deformity and can feed her by hand forever. 3. Euthanasia. My son is beside himself. He feels that by giving her to someone else that he is just dumping her off. I keep telling him not to feel that way. I told him to think of it as she needs more care than he is able to give and he would be giving her to someone who can give her the best life possible without euthanasia. Am I right? He is so attached to her it’s unreal. She was in his pocket all the way to the vet and on his neck while waiting in the vets office. I may be wrong, but I swear she already knows him more than anyone in the house. When I hold her she is all over nonstop moving (and I haven’t gotten used to that yet) but when my son holds her she just completely relaxes and just hangs out with him on his hand, neck, wherever. This is not what he expected from his first snake. It is going to be a hard decision my son has to make on his own.

this is why we always advise people to stay away from the big box stores.

do you have a pic of her? i want to see her body condition. what are you offering her to eat? live, f/t? if f/t: do you prepare the feeder correctly? have you tried offering her anything else? has she ever eaten for you on her own? do you know any history at all? i know the tongue is a huge factor here but we also need to give her the best possible chance to use it properly, and that means covering every base.

IMO i think you should give her more than a month to try to eat on her own. she's young, and probably is having a bit of a hard time figuring things out. she's likely been going through a lot with the poking and prodding and assist feeding, let alone the other handling you and your son do. in fact, i'd assist feed her until she's about 150g (200g if you can make it) and then start with the tough love of offering a prey item, and if she refuses, letting her skip that week and try again next week.

TBH i don't have any experience in assist feeding a hatchling, so this is just what i would do based on my own knowledge, but IMO i don't think we're at ultimatum level with her yet.

EDIT: i also didn't read through your other thread so if i'm missing information or am ignorant to things you've tried i'm sorry!

We have tried frozen/thawed (done correctly) and we have tried live.

We had a breeder that my son met come over and try to feed her various things (including a mouse we thought was to big but he said it wasn't) and she refused f/t and live for him also.

He is the one who assist fed her.

She's about (according to Petsmart argggg) 6 months old. Vet said maybe 6 months or less but hard to tell he said.

She doesn't even pay attention to the food in front of her, she just goes the other way.

The vet stated that there is a very good chance that she will never be able to eat on her own with her tongue the way it is.

We are going to give it a good try and that's all we can do.

- - - Updated - - -

Her tongue does not come out of her mouth, it isn't long enough to reach the end of her snoot and doesn't have any forks in it.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and my son has not touched her in a couple of weeks, only to clean the enclosure. He's been letting her settle and do her own thing.
She is VERY active in the evening. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maybeka

We have tried frozen/thawed (done correctly) and we have tried live.

We had a breeder that my son met come over and try to feed her various things (including a mouse we thought was to big but he said it wasn't) and she refused f/t and live for him also.

He is the one who assist fed her.

She's about (according to Petsmart argggg) 6 months old. Vet said maybe 6 months or less but hard to tell he said.

She doesn't even pay attention to the food in front of her, she just goes the other way.

The vet stated that there is a very good chance that she will never be able to eat on her own with her tongue the way it is.

We are going to give it a good try and that's all we can do.

---

oh jeeze. :( it sounds like you've tried a lot of different options. i stand by my previous statement that i don't believe she's at the Ultimatum yet. how much did she weigh when you got her? and she's 102g now? @ 102g she's had to have had at least a couple meals in her life.

It's great you have a vet to get advise from. It's a shame you fell for the big box store scam that is their reptile sales. I am so sorry you had to experience that for your first snake. If I could I would ban petco and petsmart tomorrow from selling any living animal but that still has a long way to go to happen.

You are right you have two options

1 Assist feed until you can see if it will feed on its own or give it to a rescue that can do it. There is a chance that once you get a good feeding down it might learn to accept rodents on sight and not on sense.

2 Euthanasia. This is not failure, it is mercy

I am sorry your son is involved but this is part of life with owning reptiles and its a great life lesson to understand that sometimes you have to let go.

Good luck and it is not your fault if you have to give up.

Just because I didn't see it mentioned, have you tried leaving the feeder in overnight?

I'm sorry for your situation, that is a difficult choice to make.

We didn't weight her when we got her as we didn't have a scale.

She was 104g on 03/13 and then we weighed her again on 03/23 and she was 102g.

One of our questions for Petsmart is were they assist feeding her there because she couldn't eat and didn't tell us?

The man that was helping my son look a the 2 snakes they had said that they have had some that they had to assist feed at the store because they wouldn't eat. So did they assist feed her and not inform us she was having feeding problems?

Could be, who knows.

I'll get a few pics up in a min.

Yes we have left food in her enclosure and it was not eaten.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDA

It's great you have a vet to get advise from. It's a shame you fell for the big box store scam that is their reptile sales. I am so sorry you had to experience that for your first snake. If I could I would ban petco and petsmart tomorrow from selling any living animal but that still has a long way to go to happen.

You are right you have two options

1 Assist feed until you can see if it will feed on its own or give it to a rescue that can do it. There is a chance that once you get a good feeding down it might learn to accept rodents on sight and not on sense.

2 Euthanasia. This is not failure, it is mercy

I am sorry your son is involved but this is part of life with owning reptiles and its a great life lesson to understand that sometimes you have to let go.

Good luck and it is not your fault if you have to give up.

---

My son is not a young child. My son is 23 and has a full time job and is going to college, but he is still living at home. He is definitely no stranger to the loss of an animal, but he is such a big ol' softie that it just kills him.
He lost his Bearded dragon the middle of last year due to old age and has been looking at other reptiles that will fit in with him not being home all the time. Fell in love with snakes online and saw them in Petsmart and that was it. He looked at the 2 they had and felt a "connection" with Mia. She came home the next day after he got the enclosure all set up.

We've lost horses, dogs, cats etc..... it still never gets easier.

His state of mind right now is if he rehomed her to someone who agreed to care for her with her issues, he feels like he is dumping her off on someone else to be their problem. I am trying to convince him that if this is what he winds up doing that he is really giving her a life that he cannot. If he feels assist feeding her as an adult will be beyond his capabilities, then he is actually giving her a life with someone who can give her a good life, instead of euthanasia.

I have no doubt he will do what's best for her. Me myself, have been afraid of snakes but having her in my house now for a month, i really am becoming quite fond of her. I even held her the other day while he cleaned. :)

It sounds like she basically hasn't lost weight (2g out of 104g is basically within the margin of error). If it were me, I would probably offer something live that was young enough (eyes not really open, just crawling around) to be safe to leave in overnight and go ahead and leave it in overnight. I wouldn't try for f/t right now, because if she does have a tongue issue, it would be better to have the best visual and heat cues you can, which would be live.

let's take a step back and look at the anatomy of a snake:

she should be able to eat fine unless she has a deformity like a kink in her neck or body that would prevent her from swallowing or passing prey or if she has a shark mouth, etc.

the issue is her locating or recognizing prey/food. it seems her short tongue is preventing her from gathering info on her surroundings. snakes use their tongues to gather scents which they feed to their jacob's organ. w/ her short tongue, she cannot flick it to gather enough scents and info esp. on her prey/food item.

but BP's have an evolutionary characteristic that helps them locate prey in another way - using their heat pits to locate prey/food via heat signature. is this enough for your BP locate it's food? i dunno but i hope so.

i haven't read your other thread and so i have to ask about her enclosure and husbandry. is everything fine in this department? could she just be an off feed bb? she had to have reached 104grams somehow. i would try Deb's method for a troubled feeder bb to the T: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101

good luck and keep us updated.

<3

Quote:

---

Back story is Mia, a snake we purchased at Petsmart (i know i know) having issues eating. Has not eaten one time in the month we've had her and losing a little weight. She is 102g.

---

So she has feeding issues since she has been in your care, how was she feeding prior? Obviously if when is 6 months old and 100+ grams while small she is feeding.

IMO your issue is not the snake but the husbandry, the first thing I would do is follow the link AX posted to a T and I mean to a T and see what happens over the next few weeks.

A tongue issue will not prevent a snake to eat it's food, Not sure what kind of hands on experience that vet has but right now I would not listen to any of his suggestion.

What kind of setup is she in? Size,temps,type of thermometers, hides (are they snug?)

I don’t remember what ske your enclosure is? Are all the sides covered ?

are you offering food late at night ? If she’s very active at night or hunting which most so that’s when you will want to do it.

i agree w the other poster get a smaller mouse that can be trusted left over night and leave it later on when she’s due to roam. Turn all lights off. She could just be scared and stressed.

Id also do as suggested above maybe she jsit needs a small tight tub to get the basics down and not be so worried about what’s around her when she can’t really sense anything but heat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ax01

let's take a step back and look at the anatomy of a snake:

she should be able to eat fine unless she has a deformity like a kink in her neck or body that would prevent her from swallowing or passing prey or if she has a shark mouth, etc.

the issue is her locating or recognizing prey/food. it seems her short tongue is preventing her from gathering info on her surroundings. snakes use their tongues to gather scents which they feed to their jacob's organ. w/ her short tongue, she cannot flick it to gather enough scents and info esp. on her prey/food item.

but BP's have an evolutionary characteristic that helps them locate prey in another way - using their heat pits to locate prey/food via heat signature. is this enough for your BP locate it's food? i dunno but i hope so.

i haven't read your other thread and so i have to ask about her enclosure and husbandry. is everything fine in this department? could she just be an off feed bb? she had to have reached 104grams somehow. i would try Deb's method for a troubled feeder bb to the T: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101

good luck and keep us updated.

<3

---

We had a LOT of help from another poster on here getting her set up set up.

My son has a Ceramic Heat lamp on a thermostat on one side, keeping her enclosures warm side at about 88.
Cool side stays around 77/78.
He has a humidity gauge...Humidity can be an issue as it goes up and down from 45 to 55. (my son is looking at humidifiers? or making his own)
He has one of those hand held infrared thermometers.

He has a hide on each side that are identical, water dish and a climbing branch (that she LOVES).
Aspen bedding for the bedding.

Vet did say she was somehow eating somewhere (obviously prior to my son purchasing her) because if not she would not be here. But we do not know if Petsmart was assist feeding her as they had mentioned that they have done that to other snakes before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

So she has feeding issues since she has been in your care, how was she feeding prior? Obviously if when is 6 months old and 100+ grams while small she is feeding.

IMO your issue is not the snake but the husbandry, the first thing I would do is follow the link AX posted to a T and I mean to a T and see what happens over the next few weeks.

A tongue issue will not prevent a snake to eat it's food, Not sure what kind of hands on experience that vet has but right now I would not listen to any of his suggestion.

What kind of setup is she in? Size,temps,type of thermometers, hides (are they snug?)

---

The vet we use has been a Herp vet for 30 yrs. He is the one we trust completely with our Bearded Dragon and our Sulcata Tortoises.

As for feeding prior to my son purchasing her, we don't know. The Petsmart person said that they have assist fed snakes before so we do not know if she was being assist fed also.

The breeder my son met that came over said our enclosure did look really good.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phillydubs

I don’t remember what ske your enclosure is? Are all the sides covered ?

are you offering food late at night ? If she’s very active at night or hunting which most so that’s when you will want to do it.

i agree w the other poster get a smaller mouse that can be trusted left over night and leave it later on when she’s due to roam. Turn all lights off. She could just be scared and stressed.

Id also do as suggested above maybe she jsit needs a small tight tub to get the basics down and not be so worried about what’s around her when she can’t really sense anything but heat.

---

Yes the sides are covered.

Gotta say, if you follow the link AX posted and Deb referenced EXACTLY as described, it may turn this whole situation around for you. BPs are prone to being shy eaters, even the perfectly formed and healthy ones. And your girl's reluctance may have more to do with her being young and insecure, than her tongue issue.

I keep my 140 gram baby in that very setup. I will upgrade to a large display tank when he is far older and established.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maybeka

My son is not a young child. My son is 23 and has a full time job and is going to college, but he is still living at home. He is definitely no stranger to the loss of an animal, but he is such a big ol' softie that it just kills him.

---

Whoa whoa whoa, I meant no disrespect. There was no way to know the age of your son. I am 45 years old and just had to make a huge decision to save a snake after accepting to let her go so age means jack about learning life lessons about letting go. I spent a week distraught because I was ready to end my snake's life so I think I know a little about making hard choices.

Listen to your vet, we might have ideas but nobody here is a vet and we are not qualified to give medical advice about reptiles. Vets have experience we can't have. Once you find one you trust like you described, they are your best source of care.


This snake was abused by being housed and sold by petsmart. It has a genetic defect that no respectable breeder would sell so it was dumped off and now you are stuck with it. Your vets advice is sound and you should not feel guilty for not taking care of something that is not thriving.

Quote:

---

The breeder my son met that came over said our enclosure did look really good.

---

Sorry but a 40 gallons for a 100 grams snake that is not eating is not gonna cut it, might look nice but it's not working.

If the breeder had any experience troubleshooting young animals that fail to eat for their new owner that is the first thing he would have told you to do and it would have been to fix your husbandry.

You have nothing to lose you can either follow that link to a T and see how it goes over the next two weeks, or keep following advice from your vet and that breeder which obviously have not helped at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDA

Whoa whoa whoa, I meant no disrespect. There was no way to know the age of your son. I am 45 years old and just had to make a huge decision to save a snake after accepting to let her go so age means jack about learning life lessons about letting go. I spent a week distraught because I was ready to end my snake's life so I think I know a little about making hard choices.

Listen to your vet, we might have ideas but nobody here is a vet and we are not qualified to give medical advice about reptiles. Vets have experience we can't have. Once you find one you trust like you described, they are your best source of care.


This snake was abused by being housed and sold by petsmart. It has a genetic defect that no respectable breeder would sell so it was dumped off and now you are stuck with it. Your vets advice is sound and you should not feel guilty for not taking care of something that is not thriving.

---

I'm sorry, i did not take it as any disrespect. I was simply letting you know about my son and his age and how with our animal loving family, we have been thru our fare share of animal losses. My son is a HUGE animal lover and a softie when it comes to animals.

My sons first loss was my old horse. I got the horse when he was just a yearling and i was 15 yrs old.
When my son was born 20 yrs later that was his first horse.
That horse passed away 10 yrs after that when he was 33 yrs old and my son was only 10 yrs old.
That was a hard loss for him.

I really took no disrespect in anything you said.

Good as I meant none. I am used to huge losses myself so I understand completely.

I think pictures will help of your enclosure. We can't give you medical advice but we can give husbandry and feeding advice to make your snake less stressed and more apt to learn to eat on its own.

P.S. I applaud you and your son for taking on a special needs snake. I have one and am going through the thick of it too so I feel for you :D

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ps4py9iayl.jpg

This is how the enclosure WAS. The water bowl however is now in the corner. She seems to like her cage, at least we thought she did. She is all over exploring every night. Mostly balled up under a hide during the day.
Especially likes to hang out all stretched out on the wood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDA

Good as I meant none. I am used to huge losses myself so I understand completely.

I think pictures will help of your enclosure. We can't give you medical advice but we can give husbandry and feeding advice to make your snake less stressed and more apt to learn to eat on its own.

P.S. I applaud you and your son for taking on a special needs snake. I have one and am going through the thick of it too so I feel for you :D

---

This was her when he first got her.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...psi7ldve2d.jpg

This was her about 2 weeks ago:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...psjfc33yxr.jpg


Still waiting for my pics to upload from yesterday.

Vet did say she does still look ok, not to thin really. He said she had to have been eating somewhere before we got her even if she was being assist fed at the store.

My son has not touched her in 2 weeks except for cleaning. I'm going to print everything out for him today so when he gets home from school at 9:30 tonight, i'll give him the directions for making a tub for her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDA

Good as I meant none. I am used to huge losses myself so I understand completely.

I think pictures will help of your enclosure. We can't give you medical advice but we can give husbandry and feeding advice to make your snake less stressed and more apt to learn to eat on its own.

P.S. I applaud you and your son for taking on a special needs snake. I have one and am going through the thick of it too so I feel for you :D

---

What is your snakes disability if you don't mind me asking.

Chronic prolapse where we finally went through with surgery. She is 2 days post op and I am taking it day by day. She suffered damage to her cloaca and was prolapsing after every defecation. We suffered for 4 months before finally having surgery.

If interested, I wrote about it in this post

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...a-got-new-digs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDA

Chronic prolapse where we finally went through with surgery. She is 2 days post op and I am taking it day by day. She suffered damage to her cloaca and was prolapsing after every defecation. We suffered for 4 months before finally having surgery.

If interested, I wrote about it in this post

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...a-got-new-digs

---

Oh wow..... that poor baby. I am so glad it sounds like things are working right now.

Can't give up on them though.

We had a baby donkey that was born a bit early but made it. Got sick when he was about 2 yrs old and we spent (now don't judge me here) but we spent $5,000 on trying to save him. Just a few months later we had to give up and let him go. Was so hard, we had so much hope. Have to do whatchya have to do. I am so thankful my husband is an understanding person when it comes to me and my animals.

And luckily my son got his love of animals from me.

Although when i first met my husband he had a HUGE snake. Can't remember what it was, all i remember is it was about 6 foot long. I'll have to ask him what it was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDA

Chronic prolapse where we finally went through with surgery. She is 2 days post op and I am taking it day by day. She suffered damage to her cloaca and was prolapsing after every defecation. We suffered for 4 months before finally having surgery.

If interested, I wrote about it in this post

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...a-got-new-digs

---

Ok here are some pics from vet yesterday.
She's hiding on my sons shoulder while waiting.
Hope this works. My first tapatalk post. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...41ed699d7d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9d9f2f04f7.jpg

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maybeka

Ok here are some pics from vet yesterday.
She's hiding on my sons shoulder while waiting.
Hope this works. My first tapatalk post. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...41ed699d7d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9d9f2f04f7.jpg

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

---

Another onehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...20c2339efa.jpg

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

What a beautiful baby. I hope things work out for you folks.

Now here is the thing about petsmart. They get dumped off breeder's unwanted snakes and most if not all are feeding on live food. My concern is you might not be able to get a fuzzy or hopper mouse to try and feed. 100 grams means a 10 gram rodent is about the good size which means a large fuzzy or hopper.

Maybe your breeder friend can help out to offer this snake a live rodent.


Now there are some things about that tank that could improve to offer a better condition for reducing stress and improve humidity.

Aspen is not very good for humidity control and the depth you have in there is slightly too thick for the under tank heater. 1/2 inch should be the most you want and something like coconut fiber would be much better to keep humidity up. I see you block off a lot of the screen so sounds like you are working to keep humidity in.

That half log hide is absolute garbage for a ball python hide. You need one entry point and two of them, one of the warm side and one on the cool side. They need to feel secure and a half log is just not going to cut it.

Now you may have the back and sides blocked off but if not that really needs to be done to get things secure


Also temps need to be on point. You absolutely must have a thermostat on the undertank heater. There is not way around that for heating.

The warm side above the under tank heater needs to be around the upper 80s like 88-90 at the surface of the inside of the glass, not the surface of the substrate. The cooler side or at least the temp between the warm hide and the cool hide needs to be int he upper 70s and needs to be tested by a digital thermometer or a infrared temp gun and not an analog dial thermometer.

These are some basic changes you can do to help give your snake the opportunity to get healthy.

I would also stop handling the snake. Until it can eat on its own and gains weight, avoid handling it. You just are stressing it by handling it right now.


Looks like you might need some husbandry improvements and by doing so you would at least improve chances that your little one will have a fighting chance to thrive.

This is just my personal opinions of course and you are welcome to how you want to care for your snake but these suggestions come with a lot of experience and some years of trial and error that helped me get problems solved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDA

Now here is the thing about petsmart. They get dumped off breeder's unwanted snakes and most if not all are feeding on live food. My concern is you might not be able to get a fuzzy or hopper mouse to try and feed. 100 grams means a 10 gram rodent is about the good size which means a large fuzzy or hopper.

Maybe your breeder friend can help out to offer this snake a live rodent.


Now there are some things about that tank that could improve to offer a better condition for reducing stress and improve humidity.

Aspen is not very good for humidity control and the depth you have in there is slightly too thick for the under tank heater. 1/2 inch should be the most you want and something like coconut fiber would be much better to keep humidity up. I see you block off a lot of the screen so sounds like you are working to keep humidity in.

That half log hide is absolute garbage for a ball python hide. You need one entry point and two of them, one of the warm side and one on the cool side. They need to feel secure and a half log is just not going to cut it.

Now you may have the back and sides blocked off but if not that really needs to be done to get things secure


Also temps need to be on point. You absolutely must have a thermostat on the undertank heater. There is not way around that for heating.

The warm side above the under tank heater needs to be around the upper 80s like 88-90 at the surface of the inside of the glass, not the surface of the substrate. The cooler side or at least the temp between the warm hide and the cool hide needs to be int he upper 70s and needs to be tested by a digital thermometer or a infrared temp gun and not an analog dial thermometer.

These are some basic changes you can do to help give your snake the opportunity to get healthy.

I would also stop handling the snake. Until it can eat on its own and gains weight, avoid handling it. You just are stressing it by handling it right now.


Looks like you might need some husbandry improvements and by doing so you would at least improve chances that your little one will have a fighting chance to thrive.

This is just my personal opinions of course and you are welcome to how you want to care for your snake but these suggestions come with a lot of experience and some years of trial and error that helped me get problems solved.

---

OK, here's some answers for your suggestions (which i take suggestions Graciously) :)

The young man my son met tried a live mouse, she didn't take it. She didn't take a f/t after that either so that's when he assist fed her.

We cleaned the cage after the vet visit yesterday and put less on the bottom so it is not so deep..

The hides you see in there are from when he first got her, he doesn't have those now and the ones he has are smaller and there is one on each side of the tank. (there was a hide behind the branch in that old pic that you just can't see)

The water dish is maybe to big, and it has been moved to the corner under the Ceramic Heat lamp and i think that may help his humidity a little. No?

We will definitely change the bedding if it is best for her and get the coconut type.

The back and sides of the tank are covered in black construction paper.

He has a ceramic heater (not a red light heat lamp which is what he bought when he first got her) on the warm side on a thermostat and it stays around 88 and the cool side fluctuates between 74 and 75 and he checks it with a temp gun he bought.

Only time he has handled her since the day he brought her home was once to completely clean the tank and then once to try to feed her with his new friend. Then of course yesterday to take her to the vet which i'm SURE that must have REALLY stressed her out.

Other than changing it to where she lives in a snake tub, I am hoping we are doing things right.

I do think she's beautiful, normal colored or not!! :)

Sounds like you are making the right changes. I know sometimes it does take that extra effort like assist feeding to get things going. I won't say everything will be ok because I think we are both realists about the problems that can happen but you sound like you have a good vet, great son, and a good breeder friend to help move things along.

All I can say is I do hope things improve and you win out and of course do try and take your time and don't get discouraged :D Best of luck with care and it does indeed sound like you are on the right track

Sent off my "nice" letter to Petsmart today. I have been trying to send it by fax and the fax number has been busy for 3 days now.
I have looked everywhere i can possibly look for an e-mail for the corporate office. I did find a couple of links for an e-mail but they all appear to be broken links.

So i went on the regular Petsmart website and hit the contact button and just copy pasted my whole letter into that.

I think i'm also going to mail it.

I am also going to stop by Petsmart on my way home from work today and talk to whatever manager is there and explain the whole thing to him and see what he says. Our vet will give us something in writing that says what he sees in her mouth so i have backup if needed.

My son is on the fence on this. He so badly wants to keep her, but at the same time he doesn't think he is capable of assist feeding her for her whole life if she in fact doesn't learn to eat on her own.

This is so hard.

I want to thank everyone here for all their suggestions. I want to thank you all for everything.

Poor baby Mia.......

A lot of times I will not look at the Petco/Petsmart reptile cages. The less I see...the less nightmares I will have...
(I'm just there to play with the ferrets)

You have gotten a ton of good advice.

But the one thing you have not tried yet, is to follow Deborah's advice. While its true that larger cages CAN be made to work for many snakes, even young ones, you will always have that young snake that is simply overwhelmed by it.

Hatchlings are a whole different matter then adult snakes. Most people that get a young snake usually get one that is already past those "beginner hickups". It has usually eaten on its own and it is what we call "established". Those sometimes fare better being housed in larger enclosures, as long as husbandry is correct of course.

Even completely normal and perfectly housed new hatchlings can be difficult to get started on eating. Yours has a disability. Yours has probably been pushed off to that big box store because the breeder knew that in that case it didn't really matter whether that hatchling was established or not. Petsmart just writes off the ones that don't make it.

They do use their tongue to realize what is food. However, they also use different senses for that. Quite possible that the snake would learn to associate the prey by heat and smell alone.

At this point the snake is still in good condition, so there is nothing to loose by trying.

Deborah has raised countless of clutches of snake hatchlings. There is nothing like actual experience. I only raised 3 "planned" clutches and even in those I had a couple stubborn ones and one that was near impossible and I almost gave up on that one. Thankfully its alive, well and thriving now.

It has already been established that moving those challenging hatchlings into a smaller and extremely private container can do the trick. Yes, it stinks after just having worked on the bigger tank to get it just right. It stinks that it will be a plain little tub and you can't see inside. It stinks to have to start over buying more stuff. All that and there is no guarantee that it will work. However, it has worked many times before with other hatchlings. Yours is a special case for sure, but I have heard of one Ball Python male with NO tongue that learned to eat on his own and is just fine.

Assist feeding for the rest of the snakes life is probably not a very good choice. For now I would do anything at all to see if you can get it to eat on its own.

If it was my little one I would set it up in a small tub, one third of the tub sitting on a heat mat that is controlled by a thermostat. I would make sure this tub was enclosed (of course leave air holes) on all sides but the front. Put a thin layer of dark substrate in it and possibly a very small hide and a small water dish. Nothing else.

Let the snake settle down for at least a week or so, then try a live mouse hopper. I know that is to small of a meal for a snake of that size, but you want something that is harmless to leave with the snake. A rat fuzzy might work too, they move less in case the snake is intimidated by a spastic jumping mouse hopper. Scent the rat fuzzy with dirty mouse bedding. You want the scent to be strong. (stinky)

Well, that is what I would try...

You will be hard pressed to find someone to take this on. Breeders that may have the know how and the correct setups for a difficult hatchling (tubs) will probably not want to bother. Esp. since strict quarantine will need to be followed. No-one is going to want to risk bringing some disease to their collection. And while an individual may have a good heart and take this on, will they really do better then you can?

If you have horses and had a senior, then you know how it is. Despite the best efforts and expense/time spent, you have to change things around. And again. And sometimes nothing works.

If it was mine, I'd give it my best shot, try everything, and if that doesn't do it, have it put down. That is better then giving it to someone that has no emotional attachment just yet and may eventually just let it starve, even though they promised they would take good care of it.

If things go wrong, don't let it turn you off from the hobby. There are so many snakes that can benefit from all the good care and love you have to offer. Just buy one from a reputable breeder, get a well established one, and start over..


btw. I have a senior horse, too, can only hope she makes it to 33. Have a feeling she may not, though, as she has a few issues..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

You have gotten a ton of good advice.

But the one thing you have not tried yet, is to follow Deborah's advice. While its true that larger cages CAN be made to work for many snakes, even young ones, you will always have that young snake that is simply overwhelmed by it.

Hatchlings are a whole different matter then adult snakes. Most people that get a young snake usually get one that is already past those "beginner hickups". It has usually eaten on its own and it is what we call "established". Those sometimes fare better being housed in larger enclosures, as long as husbandry is correct of course.

Even completely normal and perfectly housed new hatchlings can be difficult to get started on eating. Yours has a disability. Yours has probably been pushed off to that big box store because the breeder knew that in that case it didn't really matter whether that hatchling was established or not. Petsmart just writes off the ones that don't make it.

They do use their tongue to realize what is food. However, they also use different senses for that. Quite possible that the snake would learn to associate the prey by heat and smell alone.

At this point the snake is still in good condition, so there is nothing to loose by trying.

Deborah has raised countless of clutches of snake hatchlings. There is nothing like actual experience. I only raised 3 "planned" clutches and even in those I had a couple stubborn ones and one that was near impossible and I almost gave up on that one. Thankfully its alive, well and thriving now.

It has already been established that moving those challenging hatchlings into a smaller and extremely private container can do the trick. Yes, it stinks after just having worked on the bigger tank to get it just right. It stinks that it will be a plain little tub and you can't see inside. It stinks to have to start over buying more stuff. All that and there is no guarantee that it will work. However, it has worked many times before with other hatchlings. Yours is a special case for sure, but I have heard of one Ball Python male with NO tongue that learned to eat on his own and is just fine.

Assist feeding for the rest of the snakes life is probably not a very good choice. For now I would do anything at all to see if you can get it to eat on its own.

If it was my little one I would set it up in a small tub, one third of the tub sitting on a heat mat that is controlled by a thermostat. I would make sure this tub was enclosed (of course leave air holes) on all sides but the front. Put a thin layer of dark substrate in it and possibly a very small hide and a small water dish. Nothing else.

Let the snake settle down for at least a week or so, then try a live mouse hopper. I know that is to small of a meal for a snake of that size, but you want something that is harmless to leave with the snake. A rat fuzzy might work too, they move less in case the snake is intimidated by a spastic jumping mouse hopper. Scent the rat fuzzy with dirty mouse bedding. You want the scent to be strong. (stinky)

Well, that is what I would try...

You will be hard pressed to find someone to take this on. Breeders that may have the know how and the correct setups for a difficult hatchling (tubs) will probably not want to bother. Esp. since strict quarantine will need to be followed. No-one is going to want to risk bringing some disease to their collection. And while an individual may have a good heart and take this on, will they really do better then you can?

If you have horses and had a senior, then you know how it is. Despite the best efforts and expense/time spent, you have to change things around. And again. And sometimes nothing works.

If it was mine, I'd give it my best shot, try everything, and if that doesn't do it, have it put down. That is better then giving it to someone that has no emotional attachment just yet and may eventually just let it starve, even though they promised they would take good care of it.

If things go wrong, don't let it turn you off from the hobby. There are so many snakes that can benefit from all the good care and love you have to offer. Just buy one from a reputable breeder, get a well established one, and start over..


btw. I have a senior horse, too, can only hope she makes it to 33. Have a feeling she may not, though, as she has a few issues..

---

Tried feeding ... She ignores all food.. So my son Assisted feeding tonight. Barely touched her mouth with it and she took it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a425bd6728.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2b8a721ec5.jpg

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

This is good. A few more of these and she will get it. Be patient. Many uncomprimised hatchlings need many assist feeds. If she took it without jamming it down her throat, this is good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maybeka

Tried feeding ... She ignores all food.. So my son Assisted feeding tonight. Barely touched her mouth with it and she took it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a425bd6728.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2b8a721ec5.jpg

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

---

She did squirm a bit while he was holding her head but then The mouse nose touched her mouth and that was it!
If it could be that easy to feed an adult by hand it would be no problem.... But as she gets bigger I dont think it'll be so easy.
She's hard to hold now I'm assuming it'll be harder when she's bigger.

Shes going into a tub this weekend with a full belly and we can just leave her be until its feeding time again.

A week from now yes? (Of course we'll check her and monitor temps etc...just no touch)

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladybugzcrunch

This is good. A few more of these and she will get it. Be patient. Many uncomprimised hatchlings need many assist feeds. If she took it without jamming it down her throat, this is good.

---

Nope no jamming anything. She went for it and even started to curl up around it. But we still had to do it. She flat out refused several attempts of wiggling it on front of her.. Heating it nice and warm etc... Nothing. Wanted nothing to do with food. Like she didn't even know it was there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maybeka

Nope no jamming anything. She went for it and even started to curl up around it. But we still had to do it. She flat out refused several attempts of wiggling it on front of her.. Heating it nice and warm etc... Nothing. Wanted nothing to do with food. Like she didn't even know it was there.

---

That is actually how it is with most of the hatchlings that refuse to eat on their own. After every other option is exhausted and finally assist feeding is started, many act the same exact way. Even with a normal tongue. Actually, this is the best way this could be going, the ones that grab and constrict as soon as the rodent touches the mouth are the easy ones ! That doesn't mean you will always have to assist feed, as a matter of fact, there is a good chance you won't.

Your baby just needs to learn and also gain confidence.

There is hope, absolutely so :) And once they take off, boy do they TAKE OFF. Its like a switch has turned and from then on, smooth sailing :)

I'm crossing fingers and toes ;)

Hey, this is good news and hopeful!! Can't wait to watch her progress after her enclosure downsize. I think this should really give you cause for optimism. She seems like such a sweetheart and so lucky to have landed with you and your son.

Morning all!!!
Petsmart just called.

They said they want to make this right and that to come get another snake. They said they do not need her to be returned.
I said we will not be purchasing another snake from them so she said to come down and they would give us our money back.

I told her it wasn't the $100 he spent on her it was more of "hey your vender messed up something needs to be changed" type of email.

Really I'm surprised its only been a day and they answered my email. I couldn't find a workable email for corporate so I sent an email to the store itself on the contact me button then you choose a store.

I am going to get something in writing from the vet so this Petsmart store can forward it up to corporate.

Guess now we just focus on Mia. My son is going to assist feed for as long as he can until he feels he just cant do it anymore or she starts eating on her own.

Taking it day by day.

Get your money back. Hurting them in the pocket is what will lead to change. They are a corporation, after all. Take them up on that offer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hilabeans

Get your money back. Hurting them in the pocket is what will lead to change. They are a corporation, after all. Take them up on that offer.

---

heck yes, take the money and run girl!!! [emoji23]

I also encourage you to get your money back. They need to change their policy on feeding as well. So bad...so so bad!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hilabeans

Get your money back. Hurting them in the pocket is what will lead to change. They are a corporation, after all. Take them up on that offer.

---

This. To you it's not about the money. To them it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcr229

This. To you it's not about the money. To them it is.

---

Very surprised that Persmart was open today.

Ran to the grocery store for some forgotten Easter dinner things and noticed they were open.

Stopped in and got my money.

I'm going to get a written report from the vet as to his findings so they can forward it to corporate.

HAPPY EASTER everyone!!!

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Another week gone by...son fed her again tonight. She still refuses (or can't) track or find her food so he assist fed again.

She takes it pretty easy. He puts the mouse nose on the side of her mouth and just moves it around to the front and barely pushes and she takes it.

Tonight she coiled around his hand before he could move it so he had to gently try to get her off his hand so she could coil the f/t mouse. Was funny but he said she held his hand tight for such a little thing!

So in the pic she's on the carpet but it's the only place he could put her since she had a tight grip on him without moving her to much and maybe spit the mouse out.

Pictures a bit dark also but didn't want to flash her while she was eating.

Going to weigh her Monday.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b4c7edb635.jpg

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maybeka

Another week gone by...son fed her again tonight. She still refuses (or can't) track or find her food so he assist fed again.

She takes it pretty easy. He puts the mouse nose on the side of her mouth and just moves it around to the front and barely pushes and she takes it.

Tonight she coiled around his hand before he could move it so he had to gently try to get her off his hand so she could coil the f/t mouse. Was funny but he said she held his hand tight for such a little thing!

So in the pic she's on the carpet but it's the only place he could put her since she had a tight grip on him without moving her to much and maybe spit the mouse out.

Pictures a bit dark also but didn't want to flash her while she was eating.

Going to weigh her Monday.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b4c7edb635.jpg

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

---

Forgot this pichttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e684216275.jpg

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

It sounds like it is getting easier to feed. I think she will learn to take it. Just putti g it on her mouth is enough for me to keep going indefinitely. To me that isn't force or assist feeding. What a good little baby! Keep it up!

I agree. The fact that she takes out like that is great and should be considered successful feeding rather that assist feeding.