Ball python with a broken jaw 😢 Vet pushing to force feed 🤔

Last weekend I took my 5 year old normal female in to the vet with a bump on her lower jaw. I had it x-rayed and it was determined that she had somehow broken it. She doesn't strike at her FT food and lives in a nice AP T8 enclosure with well monitored heat and humidity... the only thing I can guess is that she wedged her face in the crack of the sliding glass door too zealously or she had a hairline fracture from striking on food a long while back that finally broke completely. The vet can't figure it out either.

At any rate she is set to be splint-taped for the next 6 weeks, and I have no idea how well these things typically heal. In the meantime, my vet is telling me that she will need to come in for tube feeding every two weeks. She's 5ft and 1,900g... they're telling me that if she misses a meal it will put her at risk for liver disease. I allowed them to do one tube feeding and the tech told me she went limp during the procedure, so I cancelled the next feeding becaus I'd really rather they didn't kill my not-starving snake during a tube feeding. I don't mind parting with the $54 per visit if it's in her best interest to force feed, but I'm not into putting my girl through potentially deadly hell for no good reason. Her bloodwork came back normal, so she has a baseline of good overall health. Anyone know of any studies that support my vet's assertion?

Oy.

I hate to go against vet advice, because I'm not a vet and usually you should stick with what they say.

But personally, I would NOT allow force feeding such a big and other wise healthy Ball Python. They routinely go for many month without food in the wild. I know we aren't in the wild, but their metabolisms are set up to work that way.

6 weeks is nothing!

On the other hand, force feeding is extremely stressful. Bringing that animal in every time is extremely stressful for it. The change of temp, the rough handling, the tube feeding.

Is this vet any kind of reptile specialist at all ? This is just so wrong! Esp. with a broken jaw. Why would you manhandle this poor snake, force the jaw apart to insert that tube, all the while expecting that jaw to heal? I'd be afraid the snake may try to thrash and really do a number on its face :(

I think a second opinion is definitely in order. Or at least, decline the force feedings.

If it was true what that vet said, then all BP's in the wild and a good number of healthy captive ones would be dying from liver disease ..

This boy took a 8 month break from feeding last year.

He lost all of 145 grams or so, made that up within 2 feedings and that is what he looks like currently..

He is very healthy, strong and definitely not in liver failure !!

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...rge/cache2.jpg

My feelings exactly. I think my snake will be better off without the invasive procedure, and she often goes several weeks without feeding of her own volition... BECAUSE SHE'S A BALL PYTHON. I'm not afraid to say no to a vet if need be, but whatever I do I want to make a well informed decision as it's my duty as my snake's advocate to protect her. I simply cannot find a single online publication that supports a correlation between liver disease and a missed meal or two in a vibrantly healthy BP. Nada.

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Originally Posted by zina10

This boy took a 8 month break from feeding last year.

He lost all of 145 grams or so, made that up within 2 feedings and that is what he looks like currently..

He is very healthy, strong and definitely not in liver failure !!

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...rge/cache2.jpg

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Wow! What a big, beautiful boy!! And to the OP, I agree with Zina. I'm obviously not a vet, but I can't imagine the stress of force feeding being more beneficial to the poor girl than skipping a few meals. They can easily go months without food...especially at 5 feet and nearly 2,000 grams. My little Dumeril's regularly goes off feed for periods of 2 months or longer and she's barely 200 grams. She's perfectly healthy and never lost a gram from dieting. I'd save the poor girl the stress. :(

I'm going to have to agree with the 2 posters before me. I hate going against vet advise as well, but I don't see how this would be beneficial to your baby.

First off, sorry to hear of your snake's injury. Best wishes sent her way for a speedy recovery.

Is this vet an exotics specialist or does the vet just see exotics?

I'm no vet, but that seems like a lot of added work for you and, more importantly, extra stress on the snake. Again, I'm no vet, nor do I have any experience with an injury like that, so...

But anyway, good luck and keep us posted.

That would be my last Visit to that vet. The fact the Vet told you that healthy snake needs to be fed during a 6 week period shows they dont even know the basics. Red Flag PERIOD.


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That vet is comparing a cat's anatomy to a snake. Is he for real? Cats must eat once a day or risk developing fatty liver disease which slowly destroys the liver. That is a huge struggle most cat owners are familiar with. But compared to any other species, even my own hamster (Hamsters like to hoard their food. It is recommended to fast 1 day of the week so they will actually eat their food) they don't have that kind of risk, much less a reptile evolved to go without for months in the wild!

Even with exotic vets, many are terrible and inexperienced. I always call ahead, asks the office how many years of experience the vet has working with the species of pet I am bringing in. They always tell you, he or she has 30 years of experience when in fact he or she may have only dealt with ball pythons 20% of the time.

Was your snake eating with the broken jaw? You said that it doesn’t strike. Does it just swallow frozen.

Or did it stop eating and thats how you knew something was up?

did they even show you the x ray??

again not to be repetitive but it truly sounds like tour vet doesn’t know anything about snakes and is going to make things worse instead of better.

Can you post post pics of the splint they put on? How will it drink?

i dunno this all seems weird to me and not to jump to conclusions but sounds like the vet isn’t up on things or just looking for a buck.

If it's feasible, definitely get a second opinion on all of it, because tube feeding when it's a snake with good reserves that's only missing six weeks of feeding is nonsense. That would make me insecure in the jaw diagnosis and decision to splint.

Find an exotic vet that specializes in reptiles and knows snakes. Sounds like you went to a general specialty or dog and cat vet that was willing to see a reptile and not an exotic specialist.

Don't get discouraged about vets. Unlike what people are saying, vets dedicate their lives to the welfare of animals. That being said, you are responsible for finding the right kind of vet for your animal. You wouldn't take a parrot to a dog and cat vet so why are you taking your ball python to one?

Find a new vet, that animal can go a year without food and without any issue so there is no need to force feed it.

Many vets will claim they will see exotics however few truly have hands on experience and understand the animal they are seeing especially when it comes to snakes, obviously this one is lacking the understanding of the animal's metabolism.

Being able to treat a disease or injury is one thing but general knowledge of the animal in the case if an exotic animal is necessary too.

You can also dictate the vet on what you want done and what you do not want to be done, your animal is the patient but you are a paying customer (trust me I do that all the time)

Geeze, where do people find these vets?:rolleyes:

As everyone has said, a large ball python can do 6 weeks without food with ease... feeding them too much or too often gives them fatty liver.

5 years and 1900g ... That's 500-900g of wiggle room cause a 1900g snake lays 6 average eggs and gets down to 1100-1200g and no one bats an eye. I would bet that if she didn't eat for 6 weeks she would lose 10-15g at most. Im getting ready to put one of my male BPs on a diet cause he literally will eat a cardboard box if warmed up. So he will go from small to mediums to weaned for a while. So I would not sweat 6 weeks.

Your snake can last for six weeks without eating. HYDRATION is going to be a much bigger issue if it can not drink water with the splint in place, and if it can not, then it will need tubed fluids more often than every two weeks.

Can we see a picture of this splint ?

I just can't picture it. It must be done in a way for the snake to still be able to open her mouth, right ? Or else would they force feed her ??

Do you have any pictures of how it looked before the splint ? After ? X-rays ?

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Your snake can last for six weeks without eating. HYDRATION is going to be a much bigger issue if it can not drink water with the splint in place, and if it can not, then it will need tubed fluids more often than every two weeks.

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You dont think the snake can go for 2 months without water? Ive had a Male not come out of a hide for 2 months... My Humidity was correct but i failed to ever see him drink even though i didn't watch 24/7. He also had no feces during that time. Im up at night and he didnt come out last year thats I had seen, in fact i had to check him every few days to make sure he was ok hahahaha


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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

You dont think the snake can go for 2 months without water? Ive had a Male not come out of a hide for 2 months... My Humidity was correct but i failed to ever see him drink even though i didn't watch 24/7. He also had no feces during that time. Im up at night and he didnt come out last year thats I had seen, in fact i had to check him every few days to make sure he was ok hahahaha

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If your snake ate during that time then he got some hydration from his feeders.

Also as you pointed out, you didn't monitor your snake 24/7 so he could easily have gotten a drink while you were sleeping and then returned to his hide.

What I can't see working is a splinted broken jaw on a snake healing, while the snake is being manhandled for force feeding, which usually entails grabbing its head and manipulating its jaws.

Those bones are SO very fine, how in the world would you be able to splint or stabilize them with something so small, yet so strong, that it would hold while forcefully manhandling the snakes face??? Not like you can put screws and and wires in.

I almost wonder if it wouldn't have been best to straighten the bones as best as possible and then leaving the snake be. Maybe in a quarantine tub that is completely smooth inside, nowhere to cram the head in. Just paper towels, a couple of hides and a water bowl. They actually don't open the mouth hardly at all during drinking. Maybe it would have healed that way. Not completely perfect, but good enough to work?

That's why it would help to see pictures. If the jaw was so crooked that the snake couldn't close/open the mouth that could have been a problem of course. I really just can't picture this at all!!!

I would also suggest a second opinion, I am a vet tech and the only way I've ever seen anythings' (mammals, and a tortoise once) jaw wired was to surgically implant an external fixeter -basically sharp pins punched through the bone on either side of the fracture then held in place with a hardening plastic-like matrix or strait up hooking wires around the teeth to hold the jaw in alignment...no idea how that would even be possible in a small snake. (maybe a 15-18 foot burm or something of similar size, but not even the biggest ball has jaw bones that thick)

Also most xray machines have some trouble with tiny bones, so unless they used a dental x-ray, I'm not sure they'd have gotten the detail needed. Even for mammals we always sedate or fully anesthetize or skull / mouth rads since you have to hold the mouth open with gauze to get a good view. Again, not sure how your vet achieved the diagnosis, and I'm not in an exotics practice, but the technique should be similar.

Especially since the lower jaw of a snake is not connected by bone so that when compared with a mammal the lower mandible looks "fractured"...hopefully any vet would know that and that is not what they are trying to fix, but it also would not surprise me

Edit: though expensive and MIR would be much more detailed for a snake skull

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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

That would be my last Visit to that vet. The fact the Vet told you that healthy snake needs to be fed during a 6 week period shows they dont even know the basics. Red Flag PERIOD.


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I agree with CALM... Sounds like the vet just wants to make a quick buck off you.
Doesn't sound like he was an exotic vet of any sort that knows snakes. Beware my friend!!

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

I would also suggest a second opinion, I am a vet tech and the only way I've ever seen anythings' (mammals, and a tortoise once) jaw wired was to surgically implant an external fixeter -basically sharp pins punched through the bone on either side of the fracture then held in place with a hardening plastic-like matrix or strait up hooking wires around the teeth to hold the jaw in alignment...no idea how that would even be possible in a small snake. (maybe a 15-18 foot burm or something of similar size, but not even the biggest ball has jaw bones that thick)

Also most xray machines have some trouble with tiny bones, so unless they used a dental x-ray, I'm not sure they'd have gotten the detail needed. Even for mammals we always sedate or fully anesthetize or skull / mouth rads since you have to hold the mouth open with gauze to get a good view. Again, not sure how your vet achieved the diagnosis, and I'm not in an exotics practice, but the technique should be similar.

Especially since the lower jaw of a snake is not connected by bone so that when compared with a mammal the lower mandible looks "fractured"...hopefully any vet would know that and that is not what they are trying to fix, but it also would not surprise me

Edit: though expensive and MIR would be much more detailed for a snake skull

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Omg...you are right! What if they simply misread the unique head/jaw structure of a snake as a break?

The nonsense about the liver damage makes me wonder just how much that vet truly knows about a reptile like a snake?


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Originally Posted by bcr229

If your snake ate during that time then he got some hydration from his feeders.

Also as you pointed out, you didn't monitor your snake 24/7 so he could easily have gotten a drink while you were sleeping and then returned to his hide.

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It was during his winter fast.. But right he could of drank when I was sleeping, his nickname isn't "Sneaky Pete" for nothing hahahaha


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Originally Posted by zina10

Omg...you are right! What if they simply misread the unique head/jaw structure of a snake as a break?

The nonsense about the liver damage makes me wonder just how much that vet truly knows about a reptile like a snake?


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Yeah, i didn't touch on the fasting thing - none of the vets I work with understand that balls can fast. When I first mentioned that mine was on his 65th day of not eating my one vet asked if he was sick, once I explained that is just something they do it was still hard to believe lol

Dottie is going on her 4th month not wanting food. I dont think she looks starved at all lol.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...cae23028_h.jpg


I would personally find another vet. I wont repeat what others have already said but so much sounds wrong with this vet and his/her practices.

This vet is calling themselves a reptile, avian and exotics specialist, and aside from all this she also told me that my girl was overweight and that she'd like to see her have a more triangular shape with visible backbone... which is directly contrary to everything I've ever read about ideal BP body condition. Rest assured I went out of my way to attempt to provide my snake with the care of a herp specialist, and we will not be going back.

Phillydubs as far as I know her jaw wasn't broken until two days before her first vet appointment when I noticed a bump and a dark spot on her lower jaw. I've had her for 3.5 years and she hasn't struck on her food since 6mos after I got her... she just examines it nose to tail and sizes it up, then chows it down. She ate for me about 2 weeks before I saw the break, and it was as uneventful as always when she did.

I'm having trouble getting pics from my phone to this forum... I haven't used the forum much aside from lurking, so if I get it figured out without having to open an online photo storage account I'll post some images this weekend.

In the meantime, if anyone knows a great herp vet in the greater Seattle area, I'd love a referral.

I'm having trouble getting pics to post, but she was able to drink with it on. It was simple medical tape around her muzzle and back toward her jowl on the underside of her jaw, with a collar of tape around her neck connecting to the tape under her jaw. It looked wonky to me... I'm looking for another vet... this one was reputed to be one of the better exotic and reptile vets near Seattle, and I'm not impressed.

You can use tapatalk to upload pics. It's a free app and simple to use.

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Originally Posted by Asasara

I'm having trouble getting pics to post, but she was able to drink with it on. It was simple medical tape around her muzzle and back toward her jowl on the underside of her jaw, with a collar of tape around her neck connecting to the tape under her jaw. It looked wonky to me... I'm looking for another vet... this one was reputed to be one of the better exotic and reptile vets near Seattle, and I'm not impressed.

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Its some of the strangest things I've read about a snake/Vet. I cant imagine its broken. My snakes have Pushed so hard they have tumbled down 20" but i cant believe anything like that would break a jaw when i see the force in the way pythons strike... So odd.


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If the snake can drink with the splint on then I wouldn't take it to the vet for force/assist/tube feeding. It will survive for six weeks without eating.

I'd still take it to a second vet for a second opinion personally. Make sure another vet agrees that bump is actually a broken jaw and not an abscess or something.

Wants a triangular shape with back bone showing :O:O:O

While I like the back bone to be "there" I definitely don't want a triangular shape along with it, gosh, does that Vet realize there are ribs and such in there ? That snake would have to be emaciated to look triangular, what nonsense.

And that splint sounds a bit wonky to me, too. Tape on a Ball Pythons? Like...sticky tape ?? :confusd: That sounds like a recipe for more injury..sigh.

Honestly, if the snake was able to keep its mouth closed, but also open it (which apparently it can since they force fed her) I'd just leave that snake alone and not feed her for 6 to 8 weeks and let it heal. Or ...take it to a real reptile specialist.

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Originally Posted by zina10

Wants a triangular shape with back bone showing :O:O:O

While I like the back bone to be "there" I definitely don't want a triangular shape along with it, gosh, does that Vet realize there are ribs and such in there ? That snake would have to be emaciated to look triangular, what nonsense.

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IIRC the preferred Woma python shape is triangular, the same way boas are rectangular. :)

But agreed that a BPs should not be triangular!



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Originally Posted by Prognathodon

IIRC the preferred Woma python shape is triangular, the same way boas are rectangular. :)

But agreed that a BPs should not be triangular!



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Oh, I was definitely talking about Ball Pythons, I should have mentioned that. I know many other snakes have different shapes, far more streamlined. But while BP's shouldn't be so obese that they have fat wrinkles and a "dip" where the spine should be, they should be pleasantly plump looking.

A reptile specialist veterinarian should at least know the basics about the most popular "pet" species, and have medical books and documentation handy to refer to more rare species.

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Originally Posted by zina10

Oh, I was definitely talking about Ball Pythons, I should have mentioned that. I know many other snakes have different shapes, far more streamlined.

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And I was being a little pedantic, so we’re even! :)


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